Gondolas across the River Valley as part of the LRT System

[Edmonton PRT]

Keep throwing red herrings into the debate.

Read the thread title. This is about a privately funded gondola concept from Old Strathcona to DT. Nothing more. It is not the final nail in ETS's coffin or the end of the world.

Sit down and relax Chicken Little...

[envaneo]

Do you have any idea how inconvenient DATS is? And how expensive it is to move one person, for the COE?

Somebody has a clue. And not every senior can get Dats.

[envaneo]

^^ Nailed it.

[Edmonton PRT]

^ ETS's coffin??? LOL

[KC]

“Uniquely well suited”, “best” (see below)

Nice sentiments, maybe even cold-hard-rational positions but that means nothing. Decision making most often comes down to the decision makers’ most subjective feelings and fears. That’s why it makes a lot of sense for people to not get emotionally or even rationally attached to any idea. Some things just aren’t going to happen. (A corollary is that warnings about some things that are to some extent likely to happen similarly get ignored.).

Jumping on a bandwagon to nowhere is just a waste of one’s time. The unconventional will simply not fly.

The success of the accidental beach is a great example of our, when I see it, I’ll believe it, thinking processes.

The idea of an artificial beach being both possible and popular here was presented (by me and maybe others on c2e and more importantly by someone at the City. That City proposal even got costed out and, as often happens with ideas slated for the killing floor, got costed into some stratospherically high sand mixed with gold dust proposal which then rightly got axed. (Conversely, ideas with buy-in, like convention centres, etc. get costed out at half their ultimate cost.)

The point though is that wherever the beach idea came up, it met ridicule and comments that no one would use it, etc. (Same with the funicular, etc.) Seeing is believing is how everyone makes some decisions in their lives. (It rules the stock and housing markets.) So many ideas simply won’t happen here until, or if, that ‘wave of popularity’ reaches us.

Gondola is best transit option between downtown and Old Strathcona, advisory board says | CBC News

In a report, the board suggests a gondola would be uniquely well-suited to connect commuters with downtown and Old Strathcona.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...dola-1.4688038

[Edmonton PRT]

KC wrote

(Conversely, ideas with buy-in, like convention centres, etc. get costed out at half their ultimate cost.)

Actually I believe that the convention center was costed at 33 million and ended up at costing $101 million, some three times the cost.

Overall you are right. If the administration likes an idea, they will under cost it and once the project has been approved to the point of no return, then place all the add-ons and the budget balloons. If the administration is asked to look at an idea that they don't want, they will throw in every upfront cost and make the cost so high that will make it unpalatable.

Projects that were budgeted low and costs ballooned.
Practice track on former Clarke Stadium 5x+
Fort Road TOD 10x+
Convention Center 3x

Projects that the COE budgeted everything to kill it.
Electric trolleys $100m for 10 years
Accidental beach
BRT fiasco $$$ or $$$$ or $$$$$ whatever that means

Chime in with more examples

[envaneo]

^ ETS's coffin??? LOL

Nooooo, I meant that you got it right imo.

[Edmonton PRT]

It is amazing to see how a good idea is run through a meat grinder to destroy it before even understanding what an urban gondola is and both the benefits and see the many successful applications.

[The_Cat]

I think I'd rather have the gondola privately operated and maintained, given this transportation infrastructure may require specialized personnel.

[Edmonton PRT]

Yes. Most importantly the financial risk is all on them. If they go bankrupt, the gondola can be bought by another company or the COE. Otherwise it could be dismantled and sold. Very little impact or risk.

I think it all depends on a good fare structure, possibly allowing ETS transfers and fares.

[envaneo]

I don't think the Edmonton Gondola concept/story will ever go away anytime soon.

[Replacement]

Yes. Most importantly the financial risk is all on them. If they go bankrupt, the gondola can be bought by another company or the COE. Otherwise it could be dismantled and sold. Very little impact or risk.

I think it all depends on a good fare structure, possibly allowing ETS transfers and fares.

I don't think its that dependent on fare structure at all. People will pay differential amounts of $ just for the view, to ride it, bring the kids on and do that. So theres that segment, theres a tourist segment, and theres a commuter segment. They could probably even do different pricing levels for different demand or peak times of day and/or offer passes just like any other form of transportation. I certainly would have no expectation that this should be ETS transferable. You generally expect to pay something for such convenience. I don't see how it makes any sense for a private operator to do any favors on ETS transfers.

Sure would be some revenue streams though aside from fare. Advertising on the cars, inside the cars, sponsorship potentials. Maybe even have pubs and places sponsor for Friday/Saturday promotional pub fares to and from DT to Whyte. Kind of a pub crawl except a bit more exciting. The operators may want to get on ground level with some places like Joeys, or chain places that do ample business in different areas of the city and see if they are interested in coming on board, excuse pun. This would draw even more people to Whyte Avenue, and to the DT. This should have DT and Old Strathcona backing.

If they built something like this I don't think it could fail. It would be a much loved thing to do in Edmonton as well as being a fantastic commuter option and entertainment option (going to) for so many people.

[Edmonton PRT]

ETS fares are 55% subsidized by the taxpayer. There are other cities such as Atlanta that have both private and public bus fleets that share fare revenue and get a shard of tax payer subsidies based upon ridership counts.

I see no problem if a person used their ETS bus pass to board a gondola and the private company gets a credit for every fare. This is an avoided cost for the city. The key is an agreed formula as a contracted service. If the ticket purchased is only for the gondola, they get to keep the full fare and maybe a small subsidy. If they accept an ETS transfer or pass, they get an agreed rate. The trick is a balanced formula that both sides can agree to up front before they construct a single pylon.

[KC]

Good pointsbsbout the flexibility to offer different rate packages.

I’d guess that commuters would be a prime focus to provide a stable predictable cash flow to cover financing costs. Lacking an ETS owner would hurt demand without a seemless process. Having to buy a second season pass would kill a lot of interest.

Maybe shoppers and the lunch and bar crowds could be counted on at some base demand level. Most other sources of ridership would be volatile, unpredictable, seasonal, fickle, you name it. Special events, festivals, game night, and other demand could present staffing and timing issues.

[Replacement]

ETS fares are 55% subsidized by the taxpayer. There are other cities such as Atlanta that have both private and public bus fleets that share fare revenue and get a shard of tax payer subsidies based upon ridership counts.

I see no problem if a person used their ETS bus pass to board a gondola and the private company gets a credit for every fare. This is an avoided cost for the city. The key is an agreed formula as a contracted service. If the ticket purchased is only for the gondola, they get to keep the full fare and maybe a small subsidy. If they accept an ETS transfer or pass, they get an agreed rate. The trick is a balanced formula that both sides can agree to up front before they construct a single pylon.

Ahh, gotcha. I would be on board (again) heh, with a kick back credit for every fare but can't see the COE going for that. They seem pretty intent on not helping this. Its a good idea though and the avoided cost for the city is an interesting argument.

[Edmonton PRT]

ETS knows the costs per passenger per kilometer. They have it on their website. When the transportation department wanted ETS to make a major detour for months while rebuilding the Whitemud Bridge, ETS demanded an interdepartment budget adjustment for the calculated extra expenses. The Transportation Department decided it was cheaper to make a shortcut from Fox Drive to avoid the extra costs.

The COE has plenty of bean counters that know the metrics.

[KC]

Tyranny of small decisions - Wikipedia
Excerpt:

“The event that first suggested the tyranny of small decisions to Kahn was the withdrawal of passenger railway services in Ithaca, New York. The railway was the only reliable way to get in and out of Ithaca. It provided services regardless of conditions, in fair weather and foul, during peak seasons and off-peak seasons. The local airline and bus company skimmed the traffic when conditions were favourable, leaving the trains to fill in when conditions were difficult. The railway service was eventually withdrawn, because the collective individual decisions made by travellers did not provide the railway with the revenue it needed to cover its incremental costs. According to Kahn, this suggests a hypothetical economic test of whether the service should have been withdrawn.
...”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrann...mall_decisions

[KC]

What Munich's Gondola Proposal Gets Right - CityLab

Excerpt

“In Munich, the future of public transit might be up in the air. This month, the city is discussing a plan to create a new 4.5-kilometer gondola link in the northern part of the city, linking two districts on the internal beltway that are currently poorly connected for everyone except drivers.

Supported by the mayor, the regional transit minister, and even the opposition parties in the city’s assembly, it’s a plan that has a strong likelihood of being built.

It’s still perhaps a little unexpected: Munich is a flat city with a good public transit network. ...”



https://www.citylab.com/transportati...ramway/565493/

[KC]

The Albany gondola project:

Collaboration key for making Capital Region gondola a reality

“...
“We want to be very mindful, not about what it’s going to look like at opening … but what it’s going to look like five and 10 years down the road when hopefully we see some development here at and around the station,” he said to Rensselaer officials Monday. “What we’ve seen in other parts of the world with these urban gondolas is pretty significant induced demand – it’s the ‘if you build it they will come’ kind of thing.”

Madison said 80 percent of the funding has already been secured through private investors, and they’ve applied for state grants to pay for the rest.

If fully funded, the first gondola would cross the river between Rensselaer and Albany sometime in early 2020, "making the Capital Region a national leader in this rapidly emerging urban access technology,” according to the project’s application to the Planning Commission.

Planning commissioner Raymond Stevens said with construction costs lower than building a new bridge, or highway, and the “niche market” from the train station in to downtown Albany, this seems like a feasible project.

“It’s about bringing in economic development,” he said. “With Rensselaer developing the waterfront, and Albany with the Times Union Center and now the convention center and anything else they may have planned, this just brings in business.””
...

https://www.timesunion.com/news/arti...o-13218728.php