Page 62 of 70 FirstFirst ... 1252585960616263646566 ... LastLast
Results 6,101 to 6,200 of 6990

Thread: Valley Line LRT | Downtown to Millwoods | Under Construction

  1. #6101

    Default

    CoE to Millwoods: Take the train or else!
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  2. #6102
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Edmonton
    Posts
    231

    Default

    This traffic study would be a great thing to do and share with the public for consultation before design and construction are underway. I know it couldn't be as detailed without an exact route but I'm sure they can get some rough numbers at key intersections to say if we go at grade average wait times will be appprox. "x" and if we elevate/dig wait times will be "y". Maybe i am simplifying too much?

    I think i am reading the reports correctly but it looks like at a great many number of the intersections by 2044 they are suggesting traffic volumes will be down by 2044? I am hopeful the uptake of lrt will be significant but with the growth in the region I find it hard to believe volumes will be down?

    The whole re routing thing is a funny concept because in theory that would slow things down overall on it's own as people currently would be using what is deemed the fastest route for their trip. Once you re-route and add more people onto those slower options they become slower. Not that i went to the school of traffic flow but that would stand to reason in my head anyways.

  3. #6103

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Base View Post
    This traffic study would be a great thing to do and share with the public for consultation before design and construction are underway. I know it couldn't be as detailed without an exact route but I'm sure they can get some rough numbers at key intersections to say if we go at grade average wait times will be appprox. "x" and if we elevate/dig wait times will be "y". Maybe i am simplifying too much?
    Evidently they can't tell us how badly we're gonna get screwed because it interferes with the contract negotiations. It's more important to keep the electorate in the dark than to make things more difficult for the private companies to profiteer off of the P3.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  4. #6104
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Looks pretty bad. I have a hard time believing that the intersections through strathearn will be very congested though, the traffic volume on that road is extremely low.

  5. #6105

    Default

    Councillor Dave Loken was just quoted on CHED radio news, stating the results of the study were known back in Feburary, but only being presented to council now. He is not happy

  6. #6106

    Default

    Sure would have been nice to have all of this information out in the open back in April when Adminstration decided not to elevate the Bonnie Doon section, especially since it was already compiled at that time.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  7. #6107

    Default

    We had a one-time chance for millions but it had to be a P3. This is what we get.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  8. #6108

    Default

    Also traffic volumes are pretty low in central Edmonton / 66st areas and can be remedied by this line, and better transit configuration. Loss of roadway and some signaling due to at-grade LRT will not be the end of us.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  9. #6109
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Edmonton needs mass transit so badly, but man, have they ever built it right? The only line that seems decent is the original line. There are so many examples around the world of what does and doesn't work, but we keep making the same mistakes.

  10. #6110

    Default

    My impression is that they've done 2 lines, with a major expansion south on the "original" line that gets a bad rap for traffic issues... you only get so much money, and the way the structure and funding models are established I'm not surprised they way both expansions have worked out. As a transit user, the Century Park to Health Sciences extension is fantastic and packed to the gills at rush hour. As for 114st / University crossing arms, I turn at the traffic circle east, head towards the Butter Dome, and go south on 114st. There's just an issue with south-bound traffic in general going onto Fox Drive - Whitemud.

    Metro Line: not running at full operation.
    Valley Line: a different style of building LRT for integration, development, and yes... some cost savings. It's the system of funding (largely grants) that breed this. Biggest km for best / cost-effective bid.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  11. #6111

    Default

    ^The "cost effective" argument hasn't been proved, and there hasn't been any honest look at the trade-offs. When the only comparisons that admin can do are obviously incorrect statements like "elevated costs 3x more" then it's impossible to be properly informed to make that choice.

    There has been no cost effective bid.
    There can only be one.

  12. #6112

    Default

    The "we only get so much money" argument falls flat when you realize we seem to spend more money per km than many other superior systems.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  13. #6113

    Default

    ^^I was referring to the bid amoung the line's potential builders.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  14. #6114
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Isn't the reason our costs are so high is because they often include infrastructure and roadway improvements along with the LRT construction? So our costs end up being the LRT plus the roadwork, making our costs look a lot higher than they actually would be for just the LRT.

    No idea if this is actually true, haven't really looked into it, but I've heard it quite a few times.

  15. #6115

    Default

    Not making an argument in defence of anything. Just that, for some reason yes in compression our cost to build is higher, but due to those costs and the grants / funding we get, and because of the City relying heavily on property taxes, we get the product. The City made a decision on low floor. We get the product.

    Yes, I would have liked this to be a really well designed multi-billion dollar project for the future of Edmonton, but sell that as a planner to council, to councillors running on election platforms, to citizens. As a resident that in close to, and frequents the Bonnie Doon area, I think I'll prefer a this design for a variety of reasons through build form and urban design and building this community over the next 30 years after it's open in 2020. I'll take it over Brentwood/Metrotown/or Surrey Town Cetnre in Metro Vancouver, due to the fact that it's street and community-orientated. Development has to follow however, and new zoning has to be in place now to make the area great / more transit and walkable.

    Yes there are issues. It's time to look at bus lanes, new zoning, new "main streets" around stops, TOD, and complete street guidelines in older neighbourhoods.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  16. #6116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Isn't the reason our costs are so high is because they often include infrastructure and roadway improvements along with the LRT construction? So our costs end up being the LRT plus the roadwork, making our costs look a lot higher than they actually would be for just the LRT.

    No idea if this is actually true, haven't really looked into it, but I've heard it quite a few times.
    It is true to a degree, but in the Canadian context it's mostly just that our projects require way more roadway and utility work than Vancouver's because we insist on building it at ground level.

    So it makes complete sense to include it.
    There can only be one.

  17. #6117
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    ^^Yeah Brentwood is probably the least pedestrian friendly "urban" TOD ever, you feel like an ant scurrying between and around monstrosities of every form. Roadways, stations, buildings are all completely out of scale with people.

    ^So in any case, the 3x cost that everyone throws around is a little disingenuous, it wouldn't actually be that amount more to do a Skytrain type system..

  18. #6118
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Clareview
    Posts
    9,143

    Default

    @ Noodle: Apparently ETS is still expecting 30 minutes from Mill Woods to City Centre despite the congestion. From the images you provided here from Edmonton Journal, the whole line is going to be congested. Maybe that's 30 minutes on paper but 40 minutes in the real world. City council needs to fix this now so we don't have another Metro mess on our hands.
    Last edited by envaneo; 18-08-2017 at 12:47 PM.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  19. #6119

    Default

    ^
    The thing is, with our supposedly community-oriented plan we'll have, in many locations, wider streets than before. whyte ave & 83st will gain extra lanes to make up for adding LRT-only phases to the cycle, plus you'll now have to cross the LRT tracks too.

    I suspect that 3X rule of thumb they keep repeating would be for track construction only, and only for the cheapest track construction method (tie & ballast). Once you have embedded rail like up 105st you've already eaten up most of the savings, and a station like southgate or Century park won't be significantly cheaper than full elevated like wagner.
    There can only be one.

  20. #6120
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Clareview
    Posts
    9,143

    Default

    In other words: Yikes!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...uld-impact-you

    Great breakdown in that story. I'll pilfer the maps, but the article itself is worth a gander.


    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  21. #6121
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    ^
    The thing is, with our supposedly community-oriented plan we'll have, in many locations, wider streets than before. whyte ave & 83st will gain extra lanes to make up for adding LRT-only phases to the cycle, plus you'll now have to cross the LRT tracks too.

    I suspect that 3X rule of thumb they keep repeating would be for track construction only, and only for the cheapest track construction method (tie & ballast). Once you have embedded rail like up 105st you've already eaten up most of the savings, and a station like southgate or Century park won't be significantly cheaper than full elevated like wagner.
    That gets me wondering, has the city ever done a detailed cost analysis for a system like the Skytrain, or have we always just assumed it would be too expensive?

  22. #6122

    Default

    ^^Being in the area, all those areas are already "congested". 83 ave is ridiculous in the winter during morning rush hour. I'd steady cars going a snails pace. The difference? An LRT moving people in a ROW in an efficient manner. I want to see what "congestion" means. Road at capacity? Over capacity?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  23. #6123

    Default

    “Intersection LOS” or “Intersection Level-of-Service” is a measure of demand related to capacity. It has a range of indications that are alphabetically coded from A to F. LOS A is a free flow condition whereby the overall speed controlling factor is the width, geometry, grade and environment of the roadway. As the LOS designations increase, the speed is increasingly controlled by vehicular interference or conflict and the density of traffic begins to rise strongly. A fully congested intersection where demand has reached or exceeds capacity is designated as LOS F. For signalized intersections, LOS is categorized as:


    Taken from my link on the previous page.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  24. #6124
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Although if the study was simply looking at LOS, it really depends on how it was calculated. It's good for categorizing current service, but the methods for predicting future traffic flow are usually pretty inaccurate because they don't account for human behavior. If they just used the same traffic flow and input the new intersection conditions (which is what they usually do), it doesn't take into account the people who will change their driving patterns, or the fact that there is now another mode of transportation.

    Not that I think this intersection won't be terrible, but maybe not as terrible predicted.

  25. #6125

    Default

    From the report about the models (linked below)

    Production of VISSIM Models

    Production of the scenario models was undertaken based upon the following stages:

    1. Collection of Data for the development of the VISSIM models. This included traffic survey, CP Railway crossing survey, existing and proposed bus transit data, other CTP designs, projected traffic volumes for future design years and COE requirements data.
    2. Production of Existing-Conditions VISSIM models to provide a calibrated baseline model for the corridor.
    3. 2019 VISSIM model of the Valley Line that combines the Downtown and southeast sections. This includes an evaluation of traffic/LRT impacts for the Opening Day scenario.
    4. 2044 VISSIM model providing the design year traffic and operations for the Downtown and southeast sections. This includes an evaluation of projected corridor impacts.
    5. Integration reviews with the CTP Roads and LRT Operations teams throughout the production of the design year scenario models to assist with designs and thereby confirm the design approach.
    The 2019 VISSIM model MOE results for the Southeast Corridor intersections indicate that during the AM peak hour, 18 of the 38 intersections (47%) will be operating in a congested state with maximum queue lengths observed to be greater than 500 metres for six of the intersections. During the PM peak hour, 16 of the 38 intersections (42%) will be operating in a congested state with maximum queue lengths observed to be greater than 500 metres for five of the intersections.
    http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/c...1702383732.PDF

    (Posted without editorial comment, just for info relating to previous posts for those who can't/won't click through & read)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  26. #6126

    Default

    And most were rated "F", so 80+ seconds at intersections, and through design many changes can yet occur with road configuration, signalling, and changes in behaviour. Congestion, a delay for a left hand turn. Congestion the same number of vehicles. I will conclude that what you provided states that a road, as it is designed and signaled will predict, in congested, a 1+ minute delay in travel time.

    Therefore alternative solutions need to be made in the neighbourhood to offer different solutions to that car demand and load on City roads. Transit.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  27. #6127

    Default

    Wiki page for the simulation software used:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTV_VISSIM

    And the developer's page:
    http://vision-traffic.ptvgroup.com/e...ts/ptv-vissim/

    Super neat stuff, even to a layman like myself.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  28. #6128

    Default

    Exactly. What I would like to see - months ago - as a City approach to utilize or upgrade existing infrastructure based on traffic impacts from this LRT leg. I believe the ETS routes are almost there, but if I was a citizen along the route and not seen plans to mitigate LRT disruptions I'd be ******. Where is traffic plan post LRT 2015?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  29. #6129
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    From the report about the models (linked below)

    Production of VISSIM Models

    Production of the scenario models was undertaken based upon the following stages:

    1. Collection of Data for the development of the VISSIM models. This included traffic survey, CP Railway crossing survey, existing and proposed bus transit data, other CTP designs, projected traffic volumes for future design years and COE requirements data.
    2. Production of Existing-Conditions VISSIM models to provide a calibrated baseline model for the corridor.
    3. 2019 VISSIM model of the Valley Line that combines the Downtown and southeast sections. This includes an evaluation of traffic/LRT impacts for the Opening Day scenario.
    4. 2044 VISSIM model providing the design year traffic and operations for the Downtown and southeast sections. This includes an evaluation of projected corridor impacts.
    5. Integration reviews with the CTP Roads and LRT Operations teams throughout the production of the design year scenario models to assist with designs and thereby confirm the design approach.
    The 2019 VISSIM model MOE results for the Southeast Corridor intersections indicate that during the AM peak hour, 18 of the 38 intersections (47%) will be operating in a congested state with maximum queue lengths observed to be greater than 500 metres for six of the intersections. During the PM peak hour, 16 of the 38 intersections (42%) will be operating in a congested state with maximum queue lengths observed to be greater than 500 metres for five of the intersections.
    http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/c...1702383732.PDF

    (Posted without editorial comment, just for info relating to previous posts for those who can't/won't click through & read)
    Thanks! I can be pretty lazy with that stuff sometimes.

  30. #6130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Thanks! I can be pretty lazy with that stuff sometimes.
    No problem! From a bit of reading it seems like the simulation goes to a significant amount of depth, since it models all the individual people, cars, trains, etc rather than higher-level abstractions with their inherent assumptions. Sounds like they built up the simulation so it was providing a model that was representative of the current state of affairs & then did their best to project the impact of all of the changes between now & 2019 (aka the train) along with the more nebulous changes between 2019 & 2044. I'm not very confident in the '44 stuff, given that there's projections based on projections, but the '19 forecast should be pretty solid.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  31. #6131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    It's on the list of severe congestion intersections:

    This identified the following intersections as likely to have severe congestion being present when the LRT was operational.

    82 Avenue Whyte and 83rd Street
    102 Avenue and 100 Street
    EB Whitemud Drive Ramp and 75 Street
    Argyll Road and 75 Street
    75 Street and Wagner Road
    34 Avenue and 66 Street
    102 Avenue and 97 Street
    95 Avenue and 85 Street
    McIntyre and 75 Street
    36A Avenue and 66 Street
    From the Executive Summary http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/v...&fileid=663751

    All of the data can be found attached to the meeting notes here: http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/m...doctype=AGENDA, it's a bit on the dense side so I'm taking my time going through it.
    So basically, if you live east of the LRT then you are pretty much screwed cause every way you go you'll be stuck in traffic. Even if you head down to 23 ave, that one is already busy so you'll still be stuck in traffic. Morons. Instead of doing things right the first time, we can do it over again a couple years later. The City of Edmonton way.

  32. #6132
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    I think the following would help traffic:

    (1) Don't allow left turns on 111 Street at the 54 Avenue and 57 Avenue intersections during peak hours.
    (2) No left turn at the light on 85 Street Southbound at the new Connors Road intersection.
    (3) No left turns allowed along 66 Street onto 34 Avenue eastbound during peak hours.
    (4) No left turn allowed at 83 Street northbound onto Whyte Avenue.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  33. #6133
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Clareview
    Posts
    9,143

    Default

    I really want Valley line to be a success, really. Have we learned anything from Metro? Or are we just repeating the same things in Valley?

    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  34. #6134
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    City of Champions
    Posts
    7,392

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Councillor Dave Loken was just quoted on CHED radio news, stating the results of the study were known back in Feburary, but only being presented to council now. He is not happy
    Yup and let the mayor and your council member know, if they find out enough Edmontonians care to vote them out of office this October, they will adjust the P3 terms.
    You can contact them here;
    http://coewebapps.edmonton.ca/contac...l/default.aspx

  35. #6135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    It's on the list of severe congestion intersections:

    This identified the following intersections as likely to have severe congestion being present when the LRT was operational.

    82 Avenue Whyte and 83rd Street
    102 Avenue and 100 Street
    EB Whitemud Drive Ramp and 75 Street
    Argyll Road and 75 Street
    75 Street and Wagner Road
    34 Avenue and 66 Street
    102 Avenue and 97 Street
    95 Avenue and 85 Street
    McIntyre and 75 Street
    36A Avenue and 66 Street
    From the Executive Summary http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/v...&fileid=663751

    All of the data can be found attached to the meeting notes here: http://sirepub.edmonton.ca/sirepub/m...doctype=AGENDA, it's a bit on the dense side so I'm taking my time going through it.
    So basically, if you live east of the LRT then you are pretty much screwed cause every way you go you'll be stuck in traffic. Even if you head down to 23 ave, that one is already busy so you'll still be stuck in traffic. Morons. Instead of doing things right the first time, we can do it over again a couple years later. The City of Edmonton way.
    If you want to go east or west on the south side, just take ETS

    Problem solved...

    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  36. #6136
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton area.
    Posts
    7,060

    Default

    You have serious mental problems. lol

  37. #6137

    Default

    Yeah, I know. I care more about a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit, than those who want to maintain their monopoly and their only tool to fix transit woes is a $100M/kilometer hammer.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  38. #6138
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Edmonton area.
    Posts
    7,060

    Default

    It's like everything else. We must co-exist. Finding the best way to co-exist on many fronts would solve a lot of problems in this world. In this case transit trumping regular traffic is wrong and both parties need to be taken into consideration. If it costs a bit more but appeases the general populace, it makes sense. It has been pointed out on several occasions that the sky train system in Vancouver does not cost more. I think a mix of grade and above grade would work better for everyone. It's planning that is the whole problem here. Like anything else bad planning makes for big headaches.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 20-08-2017 at 09:51 AM.

  39. #6139
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    I really wonder if the LRT bridge could have been built along 85 Street instead with a stop at Bonnie Doon (around Whyte Avenue west of 83 Street). Yes, it would have cost more, but there wouldn't have been the overhang at 83 Street splitting the neighbourhood.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  40. #6140
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    For the West LRT, I wonder if it could be built overhead between 149 and 156 Street along 100 Avenue. I get the feeling that there's no real interest in LRT in that neighbourhood, even though other parts of West Edmonton would want it.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  41. #6141
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Where ever the pilot takes me
    Posts
    2,225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It's planning that is the whole problem here. Like anything else bad planning makes for big headaches.
    A very sad truth.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  42. #6142

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    [
    If you want to go east or west on the south side, just take ETS

    Problem solved...

    As a Millwoods resident the problem the LRT creates is somewhat overstated. 66th has never been a good driving corridor in anycase and I'm not sure why so many take it. I've always found any of 34th, 50th, and even 91st to be better options North South. Even if I want to cross river I find 34th and 50th to be faster options to access either Capilano or Dawson bridge. Its somewhat sad that 66th actually takes longer to get to Capilano bridge. It just gets bogged down in endless lights and delays already. Its a poor route that SHOULD have been turned into a freeway as planned. As per East West that isn't really the mode travel aside from Henday, 23Ave, and Whitemud Freeway corridors but in anycase is covered.

    Those caught up by any traffic delay caused by LRT on 66/75street are essentially just taking poor routes in the first place. Those trying to cross on 34ave should cross elsewhere. Simple as that.

    That said my sympathies with those that live along the route, to some extent, but those people should seriously be considering a different mode of commute when the LRT is here.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  43. #6143
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    I imagine that the 83 Street/86 Street corridor will have less congestion, especially with buses. Would 50 and 91 Streets serve as alternate routes (they have less lights than 75 Street)?
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  44. #6144

    Default

    Just stated that above. Yes 34th and 50th streets have less lights. 91st is a faster way to get to Argyll but doesn't go further North. Nobody but people living near 66/75 should be using it as a commuter route anyway. Anybody trying the alternate South-North routes knows they are faster. 34th is only 2 lane road North of 53ave and it was faster and even rush hour times albeit the number of industries moving into the area north of Whitemud off 34th is changing that.
    People stubbornly using 66/75st all these years is a lemming case. People use it because its a thoroughfare and main route and that everybody else is cramming into it. Not because its ever been a good route.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-08-2017 at 07:27 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  45. #6145
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    173

    Default

    People are going to have to learn to use alternative routes during this construction. In my experience from commuting, 66/75 is one of the worst streets during rush hour. I hope the city already has signs up advising drivers to get used to using alternative routes. Knowing Edmontonians though, taking the example from the Metro line, even more people are going to use that route because they are going to want to check out the progress of the LRT.

  46. #6146

    Default

    I made the mistake of taking 75/66 to get to the Grey Nuns hospital a couple days ago in the early evening and I'll be staying well clear of that stretch for a long long time. Maybe on a Sunday to see the progress, but not for any utilitarian driving.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  47. #6147
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Elevated track on the table again as council reacts to traffic data for Valley Line LRT

    City officials may get an earful Tuesday morning as city councillors get a chance to ask about the jams and backups predicted all along the Valley Line LRT tracks.

    Already, one councillor looked at the data and vowed to lobby hard for more elevated or sunken track on the south side.

    “To say this information was pleasing would be false,” said Coun. Michael Walters, filing his reaction in a blog post and assuring his constituents he’ll fight to have the south extension raised or tunnelled when it crosses 9 Avenue NW and 12 Avenue NW. Those are the only two exits for the 6,300 residents of the neighbourhood of Twin Brooks.

    The topic is third on the agenda for council’s executive committee Tuesday.

    Some council members already asked administration questions in a private briefing last Thursday. They saw the data for the first time last week, although more high-level estimates of the level of service for each intersection had been provided in November.

    This data — provided in response to an Edmonton Journal information request — paints a more visual picture, outlining estimated average and maximum queue length and the average wait times in sections for each direction and each turn at every major intersection.

    Officials say it’s too late to change the Valley Line, but they’ll likely debate associated road-widening projects and future LRT lines in the next four-year capital budget.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...alley-line-lrt

  48. #6148

    Default

    I don't think I've ever been as confused with an article or link citation before.

    The Valley Line doesn't run anywhere close to Twin Brooks and it doesn't cross 9th or 12th Ave NW.

    I can't even find the cited part in the linked article.

    What is this about?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  49. #6149
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Strathearn, Edmonton
    Posts
    4,296

    Default

    I don't understand.
    The line was purposefully chosen to interact with traffic and sacrifice the efficiency of both the LRT and vehicles and to take the most "development friendly" route...in the hope of, I guess fostering redevelopment or making it, actually I am not sure.
    Now that it's past the 11th hour, the Council is balking at the concept.

    It's pretty clear Council members either don't get the full picture or don't care to find out until it's too late. Did you really need the reports to anticipate the traffic mess this was going to cause? It's pretty obvious.
    What dysfunction this is.

    I really don't want to see a raised LRT in Holyrood/Bonnie Doon. However, it would be better to bite (the very expensive bullet now) then think it can be fixed later.

  50. #6150
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    46,993

    Default

    ^bingo. You choose one type of LRT for a specific reason and now want a hybrid or dedicated ROW type of impact?
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  51. #6151

    Default

    One if the reasons why I would never want to live in McKernan is the fact that the LRT blocks off one of the few entrance points into the neighbourhood. It can take a while to get in there.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  52. #6152

    Default

    Turns out people want transit & transportation that gets them from point A to point B as efficiently as possible for themselves & don't really care about some developer's bottom line or TOD plans or whatever else.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  53. #6153

    Default

    The article title is misleading. Coun. Walters is talking about the future Capital Line extension. I don't think any Valley Line grade separation is up for any more debate, they had that debate a couple months ago.

    Walters is just talking about future plans. Election coming up in October, gotta make the right noises for the constituents in his ward.

    But we're gonna have Metro Line v2.0 with Valley. When it gets up and running they'll be looking at options for grade separation at Bonnie Doon, like the Kingsway options they're looking at for Metro (haven't heard anything about those for awhile now).

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

  54. #6154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I don't think I've ever been as confused with an article or link citation before.

    The Valley Line doesn't run anywhere close to Twin Brooks and it doesn't cross 9th or 12th Ave NW.

    I can't even find the cited part in the linked article.

    What is this about?
    All the articles have focused on the Millwoods line, but the council session must have included further studies of other lines. The councillor must be referring to extension of the capital line south towards Ellerslie. If I recall correctly, the Twin Brooks crossings of the extension were planned to be at grade. Twin Brooks is bordered by Blackmud Creek to the north and west, and Anthony Henday Drive to the south. Their is a 119 st off/onramp to the Henday west, but it is planned to be closed in the future, leaving the only exits from the community being along the 111 avenue route of the future LRT, at 9th and 12 avenue NW. I'm guessing since there's two intersections to get out, the planners thought running the track at grade would be fine. The councillor, and probably others in that community disagree.

  55. #6155

    Default

    If we put the LRT underground it would satisfy everyone's desires... You can build around it, it doesn't get in the way, and it can operate fast. Someone, somewhere, has this idea that LRT is some sort of hop-on-hop-off transportation mode that it isn't. We call those buses. They stop a lot. LRT should get lots of people from one spot to another, quickly, and then use buses as last mile transport. But wait, we're getting rid of that too, right?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  56. #6156

    Default

    You can't build LRT underground every where though, and some will argue it causes accessibility issues.

  57. #6157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I don't think I've ever been as confused with an article or link citation before.

    The Valley Line doesn't run anywhere close to Twin Brooks and it doesn't cross 9th or 12th Ave NW.

    I can't even find the cited part in the linked article.

    What is this about?
    All the articles have focused on the Millwoods line, but the council session must have included further studies of other lines. The councillor must be referring to extension of the capital line south towards Ellerslie. If I recall correctly, the Twin Brooks crossings of the extension were planned to be at grade. Twin Brooks is bordered by Blackmud Creek to the north and west, and Anthony Henday Drive to the south. Their is a 119 st off/onramp to the Henday west, but it is planned to be closed in the future, leaving the only exits from the community being along the 111 avenue route of the future LRT, at 9th and 12 avenue NW. I'm guessing since there's two intersections to get out, the planners thought running the track at grade would be fine. The councillor, and probably others in that community disagree.
    The SLRT extension will go underground at 23rd avenue to switch to the west side of the road, surface, and then and follow 111 street to the Anthony Henday TUC. It will then head southwest across the freeway and then south following ~127 street.

    127th street overpass is no longer being closed. The long range plan is to build a new interchange a little further west (135 street). The short term plan will have the city first build the (proper length) on/off ramps (but no bridge) where the new interchange will be and connect the existing roadways to it. No timelines on the actual interchange, but the short term I believe is to be done by 2019. Kind of like how Rabbit Hill Road was initially.
    Last edited by Medwards; 22-08-2017 at 12:41 PM.

  58. #6158

    Default

    anyone who supports the line as is for the sake of being 'urban' is seriously delusional. as indicated above "LRT should get lots of people from one spot to another, quickly" the valley line does not. 30 minutes is not an acceptable travel time. i'm not arguing people won't use the system; they will (because they will be number 8 bus passengers) but then the further design limits will quickly appear. train lengths can't be increased because the trains have to fit within a city block, and the frequency of the train can't be increased because then no traffic will get through. so, what's the point? seriously, i'm trying to find a good answer? what happens if the regions population reaches 2 million plus? vancouver has that and their roads are congested with an above ground system! how much MORE congested will edmonton be with a rinky dink tram at street level!!??!! the talking points about how street level is more "accessible" is moot, because that's what elevators and escalators are for! montreal is building a massive low floor lrt system, but it will be completely separated from traffic and driverless. they sell it as fast and efficient.
    i don't like what edmonton is becoming. i and my business might have to look elsewhere in the years ahead.

  59. #6159
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  60. #6160

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Page Not Found (404 Error)

  61. #6161

  62. #6162

    Default



    "As major cities grow, so will traffic congestion. All intersections will get worse over time because of new traffic and growth. The question is strategically, what are we going to do to deal with that? We can only widen roads up to a certain point, but we need something transformational. This is why we are building LRT. So that hundreds of thousands have a way around traffic congestion and the ability to help reduce congestion." - Don Iveson

    https://www.facebook.com/doniveson/p...type=3&theater
    www.decl.org

  63. #6163
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    ^ I think most of us here are in favour of transit and LRT, I for one am still extremely exited about this line, faults and all. But it deserves criticism, this line is far from perfect. It falls into an awkward mix of both streetcar and LRT, but instead of capitalizing on the strengths of both technologies, it combines their weaknesses. Just because we need transit doesn't mean we should build whatever is cheapest just to say we have it.

  64. #6164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Just because we need transit doesn't mean we should build whatever is cheapest just to say we have it.
    This.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  65. #6165

    Default

    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  66. #6166
    Becoming a C2E Power Poster
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    There's a post on the first page of this thread talking about how there used to be a 20 min express bus.

    The incredibly slow speed of the new LRT might be my biggest issue with it, The Valley Line will be only around half the speed of the Capital Line (which has an average speed comparable to a subway). I don't know how this line is meant to convince people to take transit instead of a car when it's just so much slower.

  67. #6167

    Default

    ^Sounds about right.

    Project is quite far along. I don't foresee many major changes. $1.8B is far from cheap.
    www.decl.org

  68. #6168

    Default

    If you're lucky, the #15 express from Mill Woods to Downtown takes 20-30 minutes, maybe, and definitely hard to achieve at peak times. Yes, there could have been easy improvements with dedicated lanes in some areas and signal prioritization, but I'm of the opinion of dedicated infrastructure is/was needed since the 80's, will entice and aid in more walkable and transit-orientated urban development in the core and in Mill Woods, and will (as we have been told) hold a 30 min travel time.

    30 minutes is pretty good and is in line with the Skytrain. By driving at roughly 8:30 am from Mill Woods TC I know it can take me almost 40 minutes, at best 25 and at worst 55.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  69. #6169
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Grandin 2014--, Garneau 2012-2014, North Downtown 2006-2012
    Posts
    3,228

    Default

    From my point of view, the difference between a train and a bus is that I can comfortably read on a train and can't on a bus. In fact, I wish my current train commute were longer so I could have that break.

    Part of the trick is to alter your travel times and/or direction if you can. In Calgary, I lived downtown so did a reverse commute when I did travel out. If I looked out the window I could see the sardine cans travelling in the other direction while I resisted the urge to put my feet up on the oppposite bench. Now, I have adjusted work times so I'm travelling after the main rush.

  70. #6170

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    ^ I think most of us here are in favour of transit and LRT, I for one am still extremely exited about this line, faults and all. But it deserves criticism, this line is far from perfect. It falls into an awkward mix of both streetcar and LRT, but instead of capitalizing on the strengths of both technologies, it combines their weaknesses. Just because we need transit doesn't mean we should build whatever is cheapest just to say we have it.
    I am as well. Its been a longtime coming and I'll use it and wish it was faster but at least the route in this case is somewhat sensible rather than the circuitous routes we are used to in the burbs.

    Just yesterday took the #6 from MWTC to Southgate to hit the LRT. Everytime I take this I say its going to be the last time but what other options to access the LRT? My lord could they put one of the routes on the Whitemud or something?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  71. #6171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    If you're lucky, the #15 express from Mill Woods to Downtown takes 20-30 minutes, maybe, and definitely hard to achieve at peak times. Yes, there could have been easy improvements with dedicated lanes in some areas and signal prioritization, but I'm of the opinion of dedicated infrastructure is/was needed since the 80's, will entice and aid in more walkable and transit-orientated urban development in the core and in Mill Woods, and will (as we have been told) hold a 30 min travel time.

    30 minutes is pretty good and is in line with the Skytrain. By driving at roughly 8:30 am from Mill Woods TC I know it can take me almost 40 minutes, at best 25 and at worst 55.
    I live in Millwoods, and one day I was determined to test this bus to see. Waited close to 30minutes just for it to arrive. In reasonable load conditions, around 4;30pm, the bus took 45 minutes to go DT, not the posted time in the schedule. nor did it seem at all like an express route. Just going on the route theres no way I hell that bus would ever make DT in 20-30 minutes. Its also a bus that connects poorly with any other bus and is one of those "seemingly never at the station" busses. Its an infrequent route run only every half hour. All the junk feeder routes can be found all the time. I've seen the 15 at the terminal a few times in my life. Its like spotting an albino moose.

    In anycase the schedule timestamp of the 15 route is largely fictional.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-08-2017 at 01:06 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  72. #6172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    Part of the trick is to alter your travel times and/or direction if you can. In Calgary, I lived downtown so did a reverse commute when I did travel out. If I looked out the window I could see the sardine cans travelling in the other direction while I resisted the urge to put my feet up on the oppposite bench. Now, I have adjusted work times so I'm travelling after the main rush.
    So part of the trick is to move or find a different job? lol

    I mean I lived downtown and commuted to west end, it was fantastic so I get your point. Now I live SW and commute west end and its not bad at all, if I had to go downtown Id likely end myself.

    But really saying well just change your travel times when you work say 8-5 doesn't really work lol.

  73. #6173

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    There's a post on the first page of this thread talking about how there used to be a 20 min express bus.

    The incredibly slow speed of the new LRT might be my biggest issue with it, The Valley Line will be only around half the speed of the Capital Line (which has an average speed comparable to a subway). I don't know how this line is meant to convince people to take transit instead of a car when it's just so much slower.
    I didn't know it would be that slow. Wow. I'd be surprised if anyone takes it. I could see it being quite empty even during rush hour. It should have gone to the southwest of the city instead. That's where the population is.

  74. #6174

    Default

    I don't think this LRT line was built as an express train to get people from the Mill Woods area directly to Downtown as fast as possible. Like I stated, a raised train line in Vancouver that spans roughly the same kilometres takes the same numbers of minutes to get from Point A to Point B. This time is roughly 30 minutes in a peak rush hour situation. With our current road design, at peak hours, an express bus making few stops takes more than 30 minutes and sometimes over 40 minutes. The #15 express is packed. The #8 bus is also packed at this time and they both run at a fairly high frequency.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  75. #6175
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    ^ I think most of us here are in favour of transit and LRT, I for one am still extremely exited about this line, faults and all. But it deserves criticism, this line is far from perfect. It falls into an awkward mix of both streetcar and LRT, but instead of capitalizing on the strengths of both technologies, it combines their weaknesses. Just because we need transit doesn't mean we should build whatever is cheapest just to say we have it.
    City Administration constantly ends up building Homer Simpson cars by trying to address a million and one different viewpoints or purposes, and ends up with a total dud instead (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPc-VEqBPHI). I admit I haven't followed the Valley Line much at all, as I rarely travel to the SE part of the City, but I do spend a lot of time in the West end and I sincerely hope they learn a bunch of lessons from the first phase.

  76. #6176
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Where ever the pilot takes me
    Posts
    2,225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I don't think this LRT line was built as an express train to get people from the Mill Woods area directly to Downtown as fast as possible. 30 minutes and sometimes over 40 minutes. The #15 express is packed. The #8 bus is also packed at this time and they both run at a fairly high frequency.
    No, this style of mass transit is geared towards capacity and reliability of frequency similar to the streetcar system in Toronto rather than speed. It will be of major benefit as the population grows. But like others here I wished they had future proofed the system by considering the elimination of level crossings at key intersections.
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  77. #6177

    Default

    ^Does the streetcar system in Toronto have a dedicated ROW, larger cars, dedicated bridges and tunnel, and light signal prioritization?
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  78. #6178
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Where ever the pilot takes me
    Posts
    2,225

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    ^Does the streetcar system in Toronto have a dedicated ROW, larger cars, dedicated bridges and tunnel, and light signal prioritization?
    Some of the routes have their own ROW, tunnels (into subway stations), and light prioritization. Others like the King and Queen routes operate on rather narrow streets so no ROW. On those highly congested routes it's definitely more about capacity. Congestion is so bad on King street coupled with the density of condos, the city considering making part of the route exclusive to streetcars. The new Eglinton Crosstown LRT will have half of its route underground and the other half on a ROW.
    Last edited by norwoodguy; 23-08-2017 at 02:51 PM. Reason: additional comments
    Did my dog just fall into a pothole???

  79. #6179

    Default

    ^Thought you were referencing the older streetcars in Toronto and not their Flexity trains. I still hold that if the Skytrain can run at 30 min on elevated and underground track, and we're going for s 30 min for a similar distance, then speed has been achieved, as well as service, and capacity, and reliability. There might be car traffic issues at major intersections, but I understand that that is inevitable, and we could have changed that, but we are where we are.

    The time now is to redesign the existing roadways, and to rezone major areas around the stops and create new community plans for Bonnie Doon and Mill Woods.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  80. #6180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post


    "As major cities grow, so will traffic congestion. All intersections will get worse over time because of new traffic and growth. The question is strategically, what are we going to do to deal with that? We can only widen roads up to a certain point, but we need something transformational. This is why we are building LRT. So that hundreds of thousands have a way around traffic congestion and the ability to help reduce congestion." - Don Iveson

    https://www.facebook.com/doniveson/p...type=3&theater
    Unfortunately, the Valley Line trains won't have this capacity. A seven module Flexity Freedom will only hold 275 passengers maximum. But I'm still wondering if they can run two in tandem. Each 7 module unit is 40.6m long, so two in tandem would hold 550 passengers, and be about 81.2m long. Could the Churchill Station handle a train that long? Bombardier's website says that the three and five module units can be coupled into units up to four modules long, but I haven't heard if that's possible with the seven module units.

  81. #6181

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I don't think this LRT line was built as an express train to get people from the Mill Woods area directly to Downtown as fast as possible. Like I stated, a raised train line in Vancouver that spans roughly the same kilometres takes the same numbers of minutes to get from Point A to Point B.
    You're comparing real-world SkyTrain times to City of Edmonton guesstimates & hypotheticals. The fact the SkyTrain in a dedicated, elevated ROW goes the same distance in the same time as what the city hopes our surface trams without full priority will accomplish shows the CoE estimates are out to lunch.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  82. #6182
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Strathearn, Edmonton
    Posts
    4,296

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I don't think this LRT line was built as an express train to get people from the Mill Woods area directly to Downtown as fast as possible. Like I stated, a raised train line in Vancouver that spans roughly the same kilometres takes the same numbers of minutes to get from Point A to Point B.
    You're comparing real-world SkyTrain times to City of Edmonton guesstimates & hypotheticals. The fact the SkyTrain in a dedicated, elevated ROW goes the same distance in the same time as what the city hopes our surface trams without full priority will accomplish shows the CoE estimates are out to lunch.
    There is a guarantee written into the P3 on what amount of time it has to take from end to end I believe. So that part is taken care of either through achieving it or compensation. The latter, I would consider, a bad outcome.

  83. #6183
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    I don't even know anymore :/
    Posts
    1,180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I don't think this LRT line was built as an express train to get people from the Mill Woods area directly to Downtown as fast as possible. Like I stated, a raised train line in Vancouver that spans roughly the same kilometres takes the same numbers of minutes to get from Point A to Point B.
    You're comparing real-world SkyTrain times to City of Edmonton guesstimates & hypotheticals. The fact the SkyTrain in a dedicated, elevated ROW goes the same distance in the same time as what the city hopes our surface trams without full priority will accomplish shows the CoE estimates are out to lunch.
    Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up with similar times. The Cambie line is great, but they did cut corners in a few areas, meaning it is very slow from Richmond to Marine Drive, and Oakridge to King Edward.

  84. #6184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    There is a guarantee written into the P3 on what amount of time it has to take from end to end I believe. So that part is taken care of either through achieving it or compensation. The latter, I would consider, a bad outcome.
    It's hardly a cast-iron guarantee though, plenty of legalese weasel-words in the agreement.



    As an aside, how I loathe the CoE's propensity to upload a PDF that's not actually searchable, index-friendly text. I'll dig through the rest to figure out what 6-3.4.3 and 1-2.1.1A4 are when I get home where I've got an OCRed copy handy.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  85. #6185
    I'd rather C2E than work!
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Strathearn, Edmonton
    Posts
    4,296

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    There is a guarantee written into the P3 on what amount of time it has to take from end to end I believe. So that part is taken care of either through achieving it or compensation. The latter, I would consider, a bad outcome.
    It's hardly a cast-iron guarantee though, plenty of legalese weasel-words in the agreement.



    As an aside, how I loathe the CoE's propensity to upload a PDF that's not actually searchable, index-friendly text. I'll dig through the rest to figure out what 6-3.4.3 and 1-2.1.1A4 are when I get home where I've got an OCRed copy handy.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "legalese", it's straight forward. A single clause that it relies on signal timing provided by the City, aka we are responsible for our part and the City is responsible for theirs. Hopefully the City, ya know, did their part ahead of issuing the timing into the contract...

  86. #6186

    Default

    Agreed, and it's relatively "slow" throughout almost the whole Canada Line. The major intersections where a train on the Valley Line might wait for a small period of time is most likely the locations they mentioned in the news. Roadway changes in the areas around this LRT line will change and respond to future planning. Whyte and 85 street will most likely change, so will Connors at the top of the bank will change to adapt and respond.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  87. #6187

    Default

    Just to highlight the zoning I'm referring to in these areas... still no real word on the City's proposal ages ago on a corridor density and transit strategy.

    http://maps.edmonton.ca/map.aspx?lookingFor=Zoning
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  88. #6188

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    no, you're wrong.

    it's about 15 km in less than 22 minutes. i use that service all the time and here's proof:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AODAehoqxHU

    advantage: yvr. plus the separated canada line runs up to 80km per hour. something the valley line will NEVER be able to do. advantage: yvr

    now imagine if vancouver ran the canada line at street level???!!! would that be acceptable there? so, why it is here?

    also, evergreen extension to northeast suburbs. 10.9 km in 15 minutes. here's proof:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-9NHbetHfE

    80km/ h cruising speed. now imagine if vancouver ran the evergreen extension at street level???!!!

    also, the main services have trains every 90 seconds. something the valley lrt will never be able to do. advantage: yvr
    Last edited by thatguy; 23-08-2017 at 06:56 PM.

  89. #6189
    C2E Continued Contributor
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    1,477

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    correction. it's about 15 km in 25 minutes. advantage: yvr. plus the separated canada line runs up to 80km per hour, and arrives every 90 seconds at peak periods. something the valley line will NEVER be able to do. advantage: yvr could you imagine if vancouver ran the canada line a street level???!!!
    The thing about the Canada line however is the limited interaction is has with communities it crosses. Advantages are speed: you get downtown very fast from the airport but you also go for long stretches between stops. Floor grade interacts better with the communities it crosses through.

    Albeit some of these intersections REALLY need to be looked at. The Whitemud Crossing seems a little goofy for example.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  90. #6190
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    I imagine that the Amalgamated Transit Drivers Union would be against automation of an LRT line.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  91. #6191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    correction. it's about 15 km in 25 minutes. advantage: yvr. plus the separated canada line runs up to 80km per hour, and arrives every 90 seconds at peak periods. something the valley line will NEVER be able to do. advantage: yvr could you imagine if vancouver ran the canada line a street level???!!!
    The thing about the Canada line however is the limited interaction is has with communities it crosses. Advantages are speed: you get downtown very fast from the airport but you also go for long stretches between stops. Floor grade interacts better with the communities it crosses through.

    Albeit some of these intersections REALLY need to be looked at. The Whitemud Crossing seems a little goofy for example.

    ummm, "limited interaction", i may be riding the train, but i'm not dating it!! i guess all those condo towers that sprout up around skytrain stations are "limited interaction". just answer this: would vancouver be a better place if their skytrain was a street train? (answer honestly)

  92. #6192
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Sherwood Park, AB
    Posts
    10,922

    Default

    The SE LRT does have some nice stretches,

    (1) The section from 95 Street, across the river valley, up Connors Road, to 95 Street.
    (2) The section from 73 Avenue, over Argyll and the CPR tracks, to Davies Station, and onto 75 Street.

    I'm sure the train could do 60 in those sections.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  93. #6193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    correction. it's about 15 km in 25 minutes. advantage: yvr. plus the separated canada line runs up to 80km per hour, and arrives every 90 seconds at peak periods. something the valley line will NEVER be able to do. advantage: yvr could you imagine if vancouver ran the canada line a street level???!!!
    The thing about the Canada line however is the limited interaction is has with communities it crosses. Advantages are speed: you get downtown very fast from the airport but you also go for long stretches between stops. Floor grade interacts better with the communities it crosses through.

    Albeit some of these intersections REALLY need to be looked at. The Whitemud Crossing seems a little goofy for example.
    I can't agree with this at all. Edmonton has taken something that used to stand for Light Rapid Transit and converted it to simply rail transit. With tons of stops ensuring the thing never gets up to any decent speed and with so much concern about signalling and traffic arms and such that the damn thing will never hit more than 40km hr.

    The purpose of heavily engineered high cost rail systems should be getting people to where they are going or the MAIN stops. It shouldn't be a milk run and nobody really wanted that. But ETS turns everything, even alleged express routes to circuitous or several stops milk runs.

    Also, not you, but people here are completely out to lunch on Vancouver Sky Train system which goes twice as fast in many instances as some of our peak speeds.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  94. #6194

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    correction. it's about 15 km in 25 minutes. advantage: yvr. plus the separated canada line runs up to 80km per hour, and arrives every 90 seconds at peak periods. something the valley line will NEVER be able to do. advantage: yvr could you imagine if vancouver ran the canada line a street level???!!!
    The thing about the Canada line however is the limited interaction is has with communities it crosses. Advantages are speed: you get downtown very fast from the airport but you also go for long stretches between stops. Floor grade interacts better with the communities it crosses through.

    Albeit some of these intersections REALLY need to be looked at. The Whitemud Crossing seems a little goofy for example.

    ummm, "limited interaction", i may be riding the train, but i'm not dating it!! i guess all those condo towers that sprout up around skytrain stations are "limited interaction". just answer this: would vancouver be a better place if their skytrain was a street train? (answer honestly)
    Absolutely agreed that the Skytrain system in Vancouver makes it a much better place to live and with the convenience to get to most areas very quickly and actually, with traffic gridlock faster than you can go with a vehicle. Indeed in the lower mainland that's an impetus and why some people just by the pass instead of driving. Additionally I've followed real estate pricing in outlying areas and Anything from Port Moody to Port Coquitlam, Mapleridge, even Mission prices have shot up since being served by rail transit. Those were not prior viewed as very attractive commuter options. Now you can even live in Mission and commute and take just over an hour to get home while reading a book, having a coffee, enjoying the scenery.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  95. #6195
    C2E SME
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    10,713

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Light Rapid Transit
    Actually, it stood for Light Rail Transit.

  96. #6196

    Default

    Clearly all it takes is one word to dramatically change one's expectations and perceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    I know the systems are not the same... but as a quick reference. It takes me about 30 min to take the train from the Vancouver airport to downtown (roughly 13km), and the Valley Line from Mill Woods to Downtown will be 30 minutes on a roughly 13km stretch.
    correction. it's about 15 km in 25 minutes. advantage: yvr. plus the separated canada line runs up to 80km per hour, and arrives every 90 seconds at peak periods. something the valley line will NEVER be able to do. advantage: yvr could you imagine if vancouver ran the canada line a street level???!!!
    The thing about the Canada line however is the limited interaction is has with communities it crosses. Advantages are speed: you get downtown very fast from the airport but you also go for long stretches between stops. Floor grade interacts better with the communities it crosses through.

    Albeit some of these intersections REALLY need to be looked at. The Whitemud Crossing seems a little goofy for example.
    I can't agree with this at all. Edmonton has taken something that used to stand for Light Rapid Transit and converted it to simply rail transit. With tons of stops ensuring the thing never gets up to any decent speed and with so much concern about signalling and traffic arms and such that the damn thing will never hit more than 40km hr.

    The purpose of heavily engineered high cost rail systems should be getting people to where they are going or the MAIN stops. It shouldn't be a milk run and nobody really wanted that. But ETS turns everything, even alleged express routes to circuitous or several stops milk runs.

    Also, not you, but people here are completely out to lunch on Vancouver Sky Train system which goes twice as fast in many instances as some of our peak speeds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Light Rapid Transit
    Actually, it stood for Light Rail Transit.

  97. #6197

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Light Rapid Transit
    Actually, it stood for Light Rail Transit.

    Im going to go with both are actually correct. If you refer to some of the planning documents for the original lrt line from the late 60s through 80s and perhaps later, LRT was referred to as light rapid transit and newer sources it says light rail

  98. #6198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    Light Rapid Transit
    Actually, it stood for Light Rail Transit.
    You know the world actually existed before you were born. Ever here of Rapid Transit, or Bay Area Rapid Transit or such, one of the early models in NA?

    Also the terms Light rapid transit and Light Rail Rapid Transit used to be common usage.

    This is a classic case of someone feeling they have the goods based on what they know during their tenure on this planet. Completely ignoring, as you commonly do, that any terminology, data, circumstance ever existed before.

    Actually....

    Edmontons LRT, when conceived of, USED to stand for Light RAPID Transit. Not hard to find citation either;

    http://24.media.tumblr.com/399837238...6jzo1_1280.jpg

    heres another document still referring to it as "Rapid transit" in a 1977 extension plan;

    https://issuu.com/aesdl/docs/edmonto...77_-_rapid_tra

    Heres an encyclopedia article that spells out "Light Rapid Transit" including Edmontons "Light Rapid transit"

    http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...rapid-transit/
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-08-2017 at 10:20 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  99. #6199
    C2E Hard Core Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Sherwood park
    Posts
    2,522

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    ^ I think most of us here are in favour of transit and LRT, I for one am still extremely exited about this line, faults and all. But it deserves criticism, this line is far from perfect. It falls into an awkward mix of both streetcar and LRT, but instead of capitalizing on the strengths of both technologies, it combines their weaknesses. Just because we need transit doesn't mean we should build whatever is cheapest just to say we have it.
    City Administration constantly ends up building Homer Simpson cars by trying to address a million and one different viewpoints or purposes, and ends up with a total dud instead (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPc-VEqBPHI). I admit I haven't followed the Valley Line much at all, as I rarely travel to the SE part of the City, but I do spend a lot of time in the West end and I sincerely hope they learn a bunch of lessons from the first phase.
    Are you saying Homer Simpson's car was not a dud?

  100. #6200
    C2E Long Term Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Downtown Edmonton
    Posts
    46,993

    Default

    What I am feeling from all of this is that our large small city becoming a small larger city with push and pulls as we make our way through puberty.

    People may not be against transit, but not at the expense of 5mins more (assuming no cluster F like the Metro) to their personal vehicle commute.

    People are also not against vehicular travel, but are willing to add pressures to that choice by prioritizing LRT and bus travel along with other modal options such as our bike network.

    We certainly want to have an efficient system for all and not at the real expense of the other, but I would also argue not at the significant costs of raised track for a low-floor system.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

Page 62 of 70 FirstFirst ... 1252585960616263646566 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •