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Thread: Capital Boulevard - 108st | under construction

  1. #101
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    ^streetscape improvements are quite important in making an area pleasing to be around and inviting. That itself won't do much, but adding a new Federal building, Norquest's expansion, 10830, Mayfield, etc. will help reposition that street as a place to be. It also helps pay respect to the entrance of our Provincial Legislature.
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  2. #102
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    Ian:

    Ok, let's go half-way.

    There's no problem redoing the street south of Jasper IF the phase 2 of Mayfair is really a go. (Is it now?). It's dense enough already.

    But I really think the portion for north of Jasper, which is where the wastelands are now, should be held off until the projects you're talking about, Norquest in particular are built.

    Because:

    1. There is nothing sadder than a tarted-up street with parking lots on the side (remember 104 street north of Jasper a few years ago?).

    2. Street dressups by themselves do nothing (see above).

    3. The same money invested in lot improvement would generate property tax revenues that would eventually pay for the prettying-up out to MacEwan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Um, the paving stones are paid in part with some small portion of my taxes, too.

    Are we expected to cheer everything? The way you guys want it, it's not "put up [your money for private investement] or shut up", it's "put up [your taxes for public investment] AND shut up [if you're not gonna rah-rah-rah]".

    If my tax money must be invested in my name, I can say that I'd rather it were invested differently.

    And by the way, none of you guys have addressed the other point. You assume implicitly that fancy pavement dressups make a difference. Do they? I don't think so. Four great examples in Edmonton: Rice Howard Way, Whyte Avenue, 118 Avenue, Jasper Avenue. Whyte was dressed up in several stages from about 1985 to about 1995. In each case, dressup followed its development as a happening place. Rice Howard was also dressed up sometime in the eighties. Did that help establish the restaurant quarter there? Doubt it. The main anchor was always Bistro Praha and it had been there since forever. Then one fire knocked RH off and it still hasn't recovered, pavingf stones and rumors of restoration notwithstanding. Then 118, has just been dressed up. And 118 is in the early stages of rebirth. Does the dressup help the rebirth? Maybe, why not. Would there have been a rebirth anyway without the dressup? Yes, the rebirth started before the dressup. Would no dressup have choked the rebirth off? No way. Why? Look at Japer Avenue. The fanciest dressup of all. Has it helped a single place on Jasper stay where it? No. In no way at all. And now they want to redo the dressup!

    Those are my reasons for doubting the re-paving-stoning of 108. Would the same public money invested in actual lot improvement rather than street improvent do more? I think so.
    1) Paving stones, while a higher initial investment, are generally more durable and well worth the investment.

    2) As for your taxes my friend, I may also object to the city pouring my tax money into unsustainable suburbs which require more $$ per capita for policing, fire services, snow removal, road maintenance, education, sewer, recreation, public transportation.

    3) Rice Howard, Whyte, Jasper etc. are not 108 Street. This is the main corridor leadig to our capital building and it is in poor condiditon. This is an area where many tourists, business visitors etc. will visit. The provincial gov't is spending several hundred million to creat Centennial Plaza; this project is complementary and pails in comparison cost-wise

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    Chris83:

    Point by point:

    1) That says nothing about relative effectiveness compared to what I am suggesting, which is public investment into new downtown buildings for medium-density commercial land use. North of Jasper to be precise.

    2) Since I am talking about actual downtown development [rather than bashing DT for a change but that's beside the point] let's keep the suburbs out of it.

    3) I agree with you and please see my post to Ian #102. The repaving south of Jasper and north of Jasper should be handled differently. In any case, the government precinct has never extended nor will ever likely extend to north of Jasper.
    Last edited by alex69; 16-05-2011 at 02:01 PM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Ian:

    Ok, let's go half-way.

    There's no problem redoing the street south of Jasper IF the phase 2 of Mayfair is really a go. (Is it now?). It's dense enough already.

    But I really think the portion for north of Jasper, which is where the wastelands are now, should be held off until the projects you're talking about, Norquest in particular are built.

    Because:

    1. There is nothing sadder than a tarted-up street with parking lots on the side (remember 104 street north of Jasper a few years ago?).

    2. Street dressups by themselves do nothing (see above).

    3. The same money invested in lot improvement would generate property tax revenues that would eventually pay for the prettying-up out to MacEwan.
    Generally speaking, you go in and do the improvements in the hopes that it will attract attention, a new focus, and eventual investment through redevelopment.

    That is the better way to do it... for if you look at the 'North Edge' plan for 105ave (columbia blvd) they are requiring levies for new developments to eventually upgrade that ave, but it gives little incentive to build given its current state. The City should go in, do the improvements, then recoup.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Ian:

    Ok, let's go half-way.

    There's no problem redoing the street south of Jasper IF the phase 2 of Mayfair is really a go. (Is it now?). It's dense enough already.

    But I really think the portion for north of Jasper, which is where the wastelands are now, should be held off until the projects you're talking about, Norquest in particular are built.

    Because:

    1. There is nothing sadder than a tarted-up street with parking lots on the side (remember 104 street north of Jasper a few years ago?).

    2. Street dressups by themselves do nothing (see above).

    3. The same money invested in lot improvement would generate property tax revenues that would eventually pay for the prettying-up out to MacEwan.
    Generally speaking, you go in and do the improvements in the hopes that it will attract attention, a new focus, and eventual investment through redevelopment.

    That is the better way to do it... for if you look at the 'North Edge' plan for 105ave (columbia blvd) they are requiring levies for new developments to eventually upgrade that ave, but it gives little incentive to build given its current state. The City should go in, do the improvements, then recoup.
    I agree that is the conventional wisdom for doing it certainly. But I keep questioning whether it works, in Edmonton.

    Look at my four examples. Rebirth either came before dressup, or didn't come regardless of the dressup.

    And the last example, the strongest one I can think of. 104 Avenue was designated Heritage Promenade or something because of its surviving warehouses, mostly on the east side. Then it was gussied up, and stood with its west side north of Jasper all parking lot and Cecil-slum. Reconstructrion on it began from 99 Avenue north, then jumped to north of Jasper, and will perhaps continue north of 102. But seriously: so you really think the dressup helped?

    I just don't think so. There was market demand for the five-story multi-unit at 100 Avenue, the urban-Sobeys, and the three new condo highrises north of Jasper.

    Consider those trees in front of Icon2 that were cut and have not yet been replaced (or have they?) Point is, the redevelopment actually damaged some of the previous beautification and the damage was able to remain for months.

    If the dressup were so essential, that would not have happened.

    I am conceding the point, south of Jasper (although the holes on the north half of the 100-Japser block remain a worry): street beautification works wonderfully amidst dense build-up.

    But I maintain that north of Jasper it is a misplaced priority for now.

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    The streetscape of 104st is one of the nicest elements of that area.

    Icon trees going in today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The streetscape of 104st is one of the nicest elements of that area.

    Icon trees going in today.
    Yes, but the streetscape is the chicken's cute plume, not the egg from which the hen hatched.

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    ^again, a combination of factors at play, but I will gladly take an upgraded streetscape downtown any day of the week. This, in combination with Jasper redo, 102ave redo, and 104ave changes with the potential arena and LRT, will create a far more pleasant area to walk and consider living, working, or playing in.
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    102 Avenue redo? Jasper redo? Why not invest in lot development -- you know, actual tax-generating-activity -- first and let the revenues pay for street redos later?

    In it seventies heyday, Jasper had the butt-ugliest lamposts and the most beat-up sidewalks in town. No one cared.

    By the way, I'm pretty sure there were public grants to help get Strathcona off the ground in the early eighties. The street redos on Whyte came later. That's what I'm talking about.

  11. #111
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    Jasper needs to be redone NOW... 102ave will be done with the LRT when it gets funding.

    Make areas attractive, people go there.... investment goes there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Make areas attractive, people go there.... investment goes there.
    I've given specific examples why I don't think so. Please give specific examples why you think that is the case.

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    it is intuitive so long as other components are included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    it is intuitive so long as other components are included.
    What other components?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Make areas attractive, people go there.... investment goes there.
    I've given specific examples why I don't think so. Please give specific examples why you think that is the case.
    Seriously? You need an example of how an attractive city attracts economic opportunity and migration?

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    ^I want concrete example that show that street beautification by itself lifts an area that's completely prostrate out of the economic dumps (108 Street north of Jasper is a basket case as it stands). Examples where the street beautification not only lifted out of the dumps, but was the essential kickstart without which there would have been no liftoff.

    Because unless you can do that, my examples of street beautification projects in Edmonton are enough to convince me that street redos are ultimately irrelevant as a catalyst to revitalization, regardless of how nicely they look in an area that's already alive.
    Last edited by alex69; 16-05-2011 at 12:44 PM.

  17. #117
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    I suppose those who live at El Mirador or the Patricia Annex might disagree with you, or those who work at Pink Lime... or some of the other spots that dart 108st. Yes it needs a lot of help, but putting in the 'foundation' if you will, will be a good push forward to becoming another street long term.
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    ^I know the places you mean quite well. They cannot be happy that so close to them are the usual flat, empty spaces.

    Look, let me restate my argument here. On reflection, I am not at all against beautifying streets that already show life. I just don't believe the conventional wisdom that says street beautification is effective as a first step. I have given Edmonton examples that support why I think so. I have asked for but not been given any examples to the contrary.

    I am not really a huge fan of public grants and investment in commercial and cultural projects, but I acknowledge that those may work -- my example is Strathcona back three decades. Therefore, if public money is to be spent anyway, I think that north of Jasper the paving-stone money had better go to direct grant/investment to GET RID OF THE PARKING LOTS! At least one parking lot!

    I asked you what other components you had in mind in one of the posts above. I hope those are public ventures, not private ones. Obviously private ventures would be optimal, but the state of large parts of the warehouse districts is such that everyone is reduced to talking about public ventures. What did you have in mind when you said "other components"?
    Last edited by alex69; 16-05-2011 at 01:09 PM.

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    There are other instruments in play or potentially in play that will be more direct incentives... like oh I dunno, the 20% reduction in parking now required in the UW area with no parking for smaller units. If that is not an incentive, I dont know what is.

    Public and private investments. Art, lighting, upkeep, hopefully new construction.

    The Federal building will put a whole bunch of new people on 108st... and Norquest to the North potentially could do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    There are other instruments in play or potentially in play that will be more direct incentives... like oh I dunno, the 20% reduction in parking now required in the UW area with no parking for smaller units. If that is not an incentive, I dont know what is.

    Public and private investments. Art, lighting, upkeep, hopefully new construction.

    The Federal building will put a whole bunch of new people on 108st... and Norquest to the North potentially could do the same.
    Ah, construction. That's exactly what I am talking about! Any details?

    Federal and Norquest are existing. Investment into them, especially Norquest, is institutional/government office investment.

    This contrasts with Strathcona, where I believe grants were given to convert and upgrade existing residential space into commercial space, and also community cultural events (theatres, etc.) were subsidized. Note the middle-scale of the Strathcona grants. Unlike the LARGE scale subsidies going into downtown such as the arena, the museum, and the Norquest expansion.

    Do you not think less "ambitious" public investment following the Strathcona example would work better?

    I guess this goes far from the 108 redo. I guess I'll just restate that if or when the western warehouse district livens up would be the time to renovate the streets.

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    Norquest's plan looking SE from 103ave/108st


    (http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...icture1-10.png)

    They also have long term plans on the west of 108st from 102ave to mid block for a health learning and living facility.
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    Default Parking Lot on NW Corner of 108 St & 102 Ave (NorQuest property??)

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Alex - check your facts BRO... and while I will be the 1st to admit we have a long way to go, you obviously are not informed.

    Green is proposed and a high percentage of going ahead soon. Arena Entertainment District, Scott park, and norquest by themselves will take away a huge chunk.

    Blue are existing accessory parking for existing businesses on site.... or already developed. Maybe if you knew downtown better you would understand this.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Norquest's plan looking SE from 103ave/108st


    (http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...icture1-10.png)

    They also have long term plans on the west of 108st from 102ave to mid block for a health learning and living facility.

    Ian, I just want to clarify something. In your latest post (cited just above) you say that NorQuest has "long term plans on the west of 108st from 102ave to mid block for a health learning and living facility".

    Based on the downtown map you posted earlier in this thread (cited at the top of this post), would that mean that the red area at the NW corner of 108 St & 102 Ave (the parking lot that used to be the site of a now-gone carwash, as I recall) is now property owned by NorQuest that could see development in say, the next 5-10 years? If so, that will be another area on that map that will turn green in the future.

    That would leave the large parking lot east of 108 St and north of 103 Ave as the only big void along 108 St (although one would think that either Grant MacEwan University or NorQuest College would be eyeing that piece of land since it is adjacent to both of their campuses...).

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    Institutional use is all fine, but residential and retail space is what is needed. The block of 104 north of Sobey's,obviously -- but how much more space could have been filled and made lively ifonly the podiums were constructed! THt's what is necessary, paving stones can come later.

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    ^
    We get it you don't like this project. Start a new thread if you want to discuss downtown residential development.

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    ^^^

    Correct... but that area is long term where the expansion above is near term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris83 View Post
    ^
    We get it you don't like this project. Start a new thread if you want to discuss downtown residential development.
    The project I referred to was the one Ian just posted -- the Northquest proposal, which I hadn't really commented on -- not the Capital Blvd redo. As regards your suggestion... I may surprise you yet.
    Last edited by alex69; 17-05-2011 at 12:09 PM.

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    The city of Edmonton isn't going to be the one building residential or commercial properties, they are the ones that will redo the sidewalks and roads, so in this case I think they are doing their job.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    The city of Edmonton isn't going to be the one building residential or commercial properties, they are the ones that will redo the sidewalks and roads, so in this case I think they are doing their job.
    Yes. That is how things work. Must it be so?

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    vancouver builds and owns lots of rental housing

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    The city of Edmonton isn't going to be the one building residential or commercial properties, they are the ones that will redo the sidewalks and roads, so in this case I think they are doing their job.
    Yes. That is how things work. Must it be so?
    Just want to know then, what should the city be doing?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    See this post.

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    The new downtown plan calls for completely eliminating parking minimums in the "Warehouse district" for a trial period and a $10,000/unit subsidy fir new residential in the area. I'm not sure it's been funded, but it's there.

    That's the kind of support that something like this 108 redo needs. Those two thigs combined can cut 50-60,000 off the cost to build a new unit. That's enough so that demand should be there for whatever our brave developers build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Not a very compelling argument.
    Just like every one of your posts...you sir are awesome!

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    Anybody who thinks that civic investment in this city's core is a waste of money simply doesn't understand the point and really never will. The city's identity is its core. After all, how many postcards, city brochures and promotional campaigns to attract tourists, new businesses and substantial investment feature pictures of sprawling suburbs? Are you attracted to New York, London, Paris, Vancouver, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Munich, Moscow by their suburbs? When you travel, if you travel, do you take a cab from the airport to a strip mall? Well, maybe if you are the type who finds fulfillment in visiting another city's version of the Gap I suppose, but for most people the destination's experience is expressed in its city core.

    Strengthen, improve and invest in your downtown and you strengthen the city's identity and sense of pride. Ignore it and allow it to degrade and you have nothing but a donut shaped sprawl of shopping malls and shame. Sprawl is common and dull, the core of the city is unique. So what do we want to have? A unique core to be proud of, or a core that we are ashamed of?

    One way or another, the core will not be going away so we must deal with it sooner or later. And, like it or not, the suburbs that were and are built on the subsidies provided by the taxes paid by the centrally located populations must now invest in the restoration of the core. Only through a commitment by the community in terms of infrastructure will there be a matching commitment by private investors. No private investor is going to put their money into an area if the city is not willing to support the investment in the long term.

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    ^Can we stop the "suburbanites don't get it and must pay" noise? we get it, we get it.

    The argument is one of effectiveness.

    North of Jasper Avenue, there are bigger problems with 108 street than crumbling pavement. Actually, the pavement isn't nearly as crumbly as on a lot of streets all over the city that go unpaved for years waiting their turn to get the limited funds allocated for street repairs.

    What Highlander has just mentioned is so much more effective at fixing the real problem -- land under-development except for institutional over-development. If it has been officially proposed, should it not be funded asap? Proper development would generate more tax revenues for street redos where the redone street doesn't wind up looking like a hussy standing on gravel.

    For the ultimate pointlessness of street fancyings by themselves, please look at the brown (grayish, actually) earth with fancy lamposts and cute pavements by Fort Road just across 129 avenue from Belvedere station. I'd heard about it, but a while back I had the opportunity to ride by on the train. It really is stunning.

    And if you think that's all wrong and street redos are actually effective, please cite prover evidence -- examples, you know -- rather than saying people don't get it or, as IanO did uncharacteristically, it's all intuitive.

    By the way, we are NOT Munich, New York, Hong Kong, Tokyo, London, Paris, or Moscow. We are not Vancouver either -- unless you mean the greater Vancouver that sprawls through most of Fraser Valley. What we ARE, interestingly enough, in terms of scale and capital-city significance, is Helsinki (yeah, Jari Kurri, remember him?). Which is a very sprawling place with a very beatutiful downtown. Well, see my other post for actual ideas how we can get to that level. And the one thing Helsinki does not seem to bother much with is street beautification. (Or it didn't the one time I was there in the nineties.) All its lamposts and pavements are more functional than anything else.
    Last edited by alex69; 18-05-2011 at 06:58 AM.

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    "$10,000/unit subsidy fir new residential in the area. I'm not sure it's been funded, but it's there."

    Not funded, nor necessarily going to be implemented.
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    Well a quick google search on the Helsinki lamp posts and pavements revealed something different Aex69. Lamp posts are beautiful and far from utilarian or whatever word you were using. Pavements, sidewalks are the usual kind you find in Europe: flat interlocking stone. In my opinion it looks far better than our endless gray cracked cement sidewalks---although cement is what we can afford and therefore--so be it.

    Of course you threw in 'I haven't been there since the 90's' *shrugs* Just seems odd to me---I just feel it would have looked the same back then too.

    Never before have I heard anyone state that street 'beautification' is kind of a waste of time, Alex69. At least that's what you seem to be saying. I fail to understand your logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Can we stop the "suburbanites don't get it and must pay" noise? we get it, we get it.

    The argument is one of effectiveness.
    If you get it then there is no argument. But you quite obviously don't get it. Certainly not to the degree you assert.

    Calgary does get it and eventually so will Edmonton.

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ca...988/story.html

    But this converstaion is not about the burbs vs the core, its about how you wish to develop and support our city and just what gives our city its identity. The point was that our core is our identity. Use whichever city you wish as the comparative example but nobody visits a strange city to spend time in the burbs. Period.

    Make what you will of the core as a community and if the image is not what you hoped for because you did not try to make it better then you can't complain when you are unhappy with the result.

    But quite frankly I don't care to argue or even discuss the point any further. I have already wasted too much time trying to make some sense of your posts. If you don't want to build up and be a booster for the city then don't live in the city. Simple as that. Move to a rural location where you can spend all you time worrying about your parcel of land and not bother with trying to improve your community. But don't complain when the county takes your tax money and spends it on the county offices and community buildings there too instead of the road that leads to your place. After all, even in the rural areas there are community amenities and services that must be maintained, kept up and take priority.

    What I truly find annoying is that all I get from your posts is what we should not do, yet there never seems to be much in the way of what you think and have researched that we should do. Improvements to the public realm are proven catalysts to a community's prosperity. Do they always work? No, not always. Certainly not instantly. But will a community or area improve if the city ignores it and allows it to deteriorate? Never. This street's bordering lands may need more investment by private investors but they won't invest unless the city leads the way. Build it and they will come.



    BTW examples of infrastructure improvements which have lead growth and renewal in our own province....
    • Calgary - 17th Avenue SW, Kensington, Marda Loop, 16th Avenue corridor, East Village (under construction), Eau Claire Riverwalk, Stephen Avenue, Victoria Park, the Warehouse District, the Beltline, 4th Street SW, all of the DT core!
    • Whyte Avenue, 104 street, 124 Street, 118 Avenue, Chinatown North, Fort Road (it will come)
    • Fort McLeod's DT
    Now give me examples of communities that prospered and revitalized in spite of being neglected and allowed to deteriorate by the civic authority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Les View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    ^Can we stop the "suburbanites don't get it and must pay" noise? we get it, we get it.

    The argument is one of effectiveness.
    If you get it then there is no argument. But you quite obviously don't get it. Certainly not to the degree you assert.

    Calgary does get it and eventually so will Edmonton.

    http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Ca...988/story.html

    But this converstaion is not about the burbs vs the core, its about how you wish to develop and support our city and just what gives our city its identity. The point was that our core is our identity. Use whichever city you wish as the comparative example but nobody visits a strange city to spend time in the burbs. Period.

    Make what you will of the core as a community and if the image is not what you hoped for because you did not try to make it better then you can't complain when you are unhappy with the result.

    But quite frankly I don't care to argue or even discuss the point any further. I have already wasted too much time trying to make some sense of your posts. If you don't want to build up and be a booster for the city then don't live in the city. Simple as that. Move to a rural location where you can spend all you time worrying about your parcel of land and not bother with trying to improve your community. But don't complain when the county takes your tax money and spends it on the county offices and community buildings there too instead of the road that leads to your place. After all, even in the rural areas there are community amenities and services that must be maintained, kept up and take priority.

    What I truly find annoying is that all I get from your posts is what we should not do, yet there never seems to be much in the way of what you think and have researched that we should do. Improvements to the public realm are proven catalysts to a community's prosperity. Do they always work? No, not always. Certainly not instantly. But will a community or area improve if the city ignores it and allows it to deteriorate? Never. This street's bordering lands may need more investment by private investors but they won't invest unless the city leads the way. Build it and they will come.












    BTW examples of infrastructure improvements which have lead growth and renewal in our own province....
    • Calgary - 17th Avenue SW, Kensington, Marda Loop, 16th Avenue corridor, East Village (under construction), Eau Claire Riverwalk, Stephen Avenue, Victoria Park, the Warehouse District, the Beltline, 4th Street SW, all of the DT core!
    • Whyte Avenue, 104 street, 124 Street, 118 Avenue, Chinatown North, Fort Road (it will come)
    • Fort McLeod's DT
    Now give me examples of communities that prospered and revitalized in spite of being neglected and allowed to deteriorate by the civic authority.
    Your post contains far too much rhetoric and the few examples don't come until the very end.

    Of the Edmonton ones, the Whyte renovations and the ones on 104 south to 76 were done in phases between 1985 and 1997 after the great rush to "Old Scona" started around 1982, the 118 Avenue ones in the last couple of years followed a renewal of business activity during the 2005-8 period, the 124 street ones in phases between approx. 1990-2000 did not change the street one bit in terms of the buildings or tenants on it, neither did the renos on Calgary Trail and Gateway around 2003, Chinatown North (97 between 105 and 107) like Whyte was renovated in the 1990s after (many years after) businesses began moving in in the early to mid-eighties, and Fort Road is far too early to talk about. If you mean the brownfield by Belvedere LRT, that's an example of how NOT to do things.

    Sorry. Not convincing. All the edmonton examples just improved a street already coming alive. They did nothing by themselves to help a street in the doldrums.

    As regards the other ones around Alberta... won't comment on them, but I think the Edmonton experience with street renos is pretty clear and more important.

    And since I am NOT arguing for no action at all, I will ignore your demand at the end of the post.
    Last edited by alex69; 19-05-2011 at 12:20 AM.

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    Given tonight's news on the Arena District, I think that there may be more interest in new development along Capital Boulevard.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Alex69....Whatever. You win OK? Congratulations. Now can you please leave so we can all just wallow in our obvious stupidity.

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    The Cat: Perhaps. In my other (long) post, I argued for municipal investment (modest or huge, take your pick) into places kept open as alternatives/precursors to arena events.

    108 street even north of Jasper is pretty far from the arena.

    If even it has new development interest coming in, wonderful. If not... well, municipal resources will for a fairly long while be seriously constrained by the arena tab. Modest rather than revolutionary municipal funding may be all that's possible.

    I like the idea of some sort of very modest per-commercial unit subsidy if a more revolutionary and obviously larger per-residential unit subsidy becomes untenable with the city investment into the arena.
    Last edited by alex69; 19-05-2011 at 12:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trojonowicz View Post
    Well a quick google search on the Helsinki lamp posts and pavements revealed something different Aex69. Lamp posts are beautiful and far from utilarian or whatever word you were using. Pavements, sidewalks are the usual kind you find in Europe: flat interlocking stone. In my opinion it looks far better than our endless gray cracked cement sidewalks---although cement is what we can afford and therefore--so be it.

    Of course you threw in 'I haven't been there since the 90's' *shrugs* Just seems odd to me---I just feel it would have looked the same back then too.

    Never before have I heard anyone state that street 'beautification' is kind of a waste of time, Alex69. At least that's what you seem to be saying. I fail to understand your logic.
    Well, I'm willing to take back my point about Helsinki streetlamps and "street renos" since a couple of weeks spent in the place are probably not enough.

    I'll stand by my point that as a city its climate, population and political siginificance make it a good analogue to Edmonton. That was something that really struck me.

    The logic I've been arguing here, pretty well to the point it's hard to say anything new about it, is that while 108 street south of Jasper is an acceptable candidate for a redo, 108 street north of Jasper is too empty yet, and that should be addressed first.

    As for street redos in general, they may look good but are not that great as economic stimulus.
    Last edited by alex69; 19-05-2011 at 01:16 AM.

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    Not great as economic stimulus?

    If not jobs created--there will be certainly more work hours for employees working on street beautification. More work hours=more pay==more money to spend on consumer purchases. And businesses looking to move are attracted to a nice looking city anyway. Is not all this 'economic stimulus'?

    No we are not Munich, New York, Hong Kong, Tokyo....but these cities only became these cities after a long long period of time. New York was once just a little a little village people drove past.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    The logic I've been arguing here, pretty well to the point it's hard to say anything new about it, is that while 108 street south of Jasper is an acceptable candidate for a redo, 108 street north of Jasper is too empty yet, and that should be addressed first.
    I'm sorry but this argument doesn't work for me, it actually reminds me of the position that older city councils have taken, put it off until another day, but we don't need to do it now.
    As a matter of fact the situation on 108 currently makes things a whole lot easier in regards to construction then at a future date. Currently with a lower retail and commercial presence there will be less problems in disruptions for businesses that are currently there. One of the positives at this point too is that costs for construction are still acceptable, where as signs point to a much more inflated cost to do any construction work in the future.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^In addition, Edmonton City Council's of the past have for too long neglected their responsibility for redoing infrastructure and being proactive about attracting development in certain areas. You can't wait till the businesses are there to do these thing, it isn't subjective and it isn't a chicken-and-egg argument. There are real costs to maintaining infrastructure and attracting development, especially in the core. We are playing catch-up for past neglect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alex69 View Post
    [
    ...the 118 Avenue ones in the last couple of years followed a renewal of business activity during the 2005-8 period...
    I can attest that I moved to the Alberta Avenue neighborhood in 2003 (it was all I could afford at the time), and thought about moving away in a few years. However, I began to consider staying and improving my home when I saw that the city announced plans to fix up 118th Ave.

    So yes, technically you are right - revitalization started before actual construction did, but the fact that the city made a plan and commitment to fix up the infrastructure of 118th could very well be one of the catalysts that changed the tune of many businesses and residents in the area. It did for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Les View Post
    Alex69....Whatever. You win OK? Congratulations. Now can you please leave so we can all just wallow in our obvious stupidity.

    You're an ******* and this site is filled with brazing flagwavers. I'm done here.

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    I know it's not much, but I'm assuming that this little bit of work was done in expectation of the work on 108st. This hydrant is in front of Petrolium Plaza.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    LOL, at first I thought that picture was a joke... but yes, you're probably right about it being part of the upcoming work. I can't wait to see things really get started.

  51. #151

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    you want proof of investment in public spaces and infrastructure spurring development.... http://www.centralpark.com/guide/history.html

    To think that the upper east was undesirable and home to many a Pig farmer. Now today because of the park, they are some of the most sought after addresses in the country. The park spured the creation of 5th Ave and has defined New York just as much as The empire state building or the twin towers.




    Central Park was the first landscaped public park in the United States. Advocates of creating the park--primarily wealthy

    Skating on the Lake in turn
    of the century Central Park.
    merchants and landowners--admired the public grounds of London and Paris and urged that New York needed a comparable facility to establish its international reputation. A public park, they argued, would offer their own families an attractive setting for carriage rides and provide working-class New Yorkers with a healthy alternative to the saloon. After three years of debate over the park site and cost, in 1853 the state legislature authorized the City of New York to use the power of eminent domain to acquire more than 700 acres of land in the center of Manhattan.
    An irregular terrain of swamps and bluffs, punctuated by rocky outcroppings, made the land between Fifth and Eighth avenues and 59th and 106th streets undesirable for private development. Creating the park, however, required displacing roughly 1,600 poor residents, including Irish pig farmers and German gardeners, who lived in shanties on the site.

    Last edited by edmonton daily photo; 08-06-2011 at 08:20 PM.
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    ^No, EDP, I want proof that specifically fancy lamp-posts and brick pavement spur development. So far, no one has been able to give an incontrovertible example.

    The 108 street plans are nowhere near the scale of New York's central park and you know it. To hussy up four blocks of one street and to create a one-square-mile urban park -- yeah, nice comparison.

    As usual, you are sidetracking into cheap, pointless, and worst of all irrelevant comparisons. I am not surprised.

    Go back to mocking suburban women who make the mistake of doing business with the downtown outfit you work for and revealing the fact they're not very at easy in our city centre. Your sincerity is much more convincing that way.

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    Default It's an Eysore!

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Norquest's plan looking SE from 103ave/108st


    (http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...icture1-10.png)

    They also have long term plans on the west of 108st from 102ave to mid block for a health learning and living facility.
    This thing is an eysore. I hope it never gets built. We need GOOD architecture, not "anything to fill the vacant land". And for those who need convincing that fancy lamp posts and cutsey sidewalks do NOT revitalise a neighbourhood, look at Fort Road.

  54. #154

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    I have been a fan of the Capital Blvd. plan since I first heard of it seven years ago. The reason it is a worthy project is obvious when standing on Jasper looking north and south. The street is bookended by two (Edmonton)-iconic structures which makes for one of the finest pedestrian thoroughfares in the city (I can't think of another). Citizens desire a sense of the sublime. In cities, buildings provide that sense. Can a hard economic case be made for 108street redevelopment? Maybe. I can't make it. And I don't think it needs to be made.

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    Default Norquest Ugly

    That Norquest thing looks like something out of Rhodesia in the 1950's! Surely we can do better than that. If we have to copy architecture, how about Edwardian or Victorian? Anything is better than 50's.

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    I actually don't mind it, although more glass would be nice. That said, I have been privy to the plans and the main floor will be quite well done, open, bright, and with public amenities.
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    The main problem I have with the Norquest expansion plan is that it hasn't happened yet.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Funding requests are in for the 2012 capital budget.

    It would do so much for the feel of that area if we could get that building there along with activation of the street level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monument
    This thing is an eysore. I hope it never gets built. We need GOOD architecture, not "anything to fill the vacant land".
    I really, really dislike this opinion that parking lots are better than someone's subjective idea of what makes for good architecture.

    The main problem with our downtown, and the warehouse district in particular, is that the land is underused and has been for decades.

    Build something: anything is better than nothing.

    Arguments that a particular land use is inappropriate are normal and expected; there may be valid issues with functional design -- not enough late-evening activity, for example, or insufficient street interaction -- whatever; but parking lots have no use, period.

    It's not even as though they fill up during the daytime.

    They are just a waste.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monument View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Norquest's plan looking SE from 103ave/108st


    (http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...icture1-10.png)

    They also have long term plans on the west of 108st from 102ave to mid block for a health learning and living facility.
    This thing is an eysore. I hope it never gets built. We need GOOD architecture, not "anything to fill the vacant land". And for those who need convincing that fancy lamp posts and cutsey sidewalks do NOT revitalise a neighbourhood, look at Fort Road.
    I actually like it. The colors are meh, but if it is a combination of concrete/brick in the style they have, it'll be a nice addition to 108st.

    Love the amount of open glass on the main floor!

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    I also think this is a nice looking building. Hopefully the funding will come through soon.

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    Anyone notice the top right corner of the picture?

    "Image and building shape, number of floors, etc is only based on planning concepts and may change in design."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hilman View Post
    Anyone notice the top right corner of the picture?

    "Image and building shape, number of floors, etc is only based on planning concepts and may change in design."
    quite common
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arliss View Post
    That Norquest thing looks like something out of Rhodesia in the 1950's! Surely we can do better than that. If we have to copy architecture, how about Edwardian or Victorian? Anything is better than 50's.
    I would bet a large sum that copied Edwardian or Victorian, especially with Edmonton budgets, would wind up looking much, much worse than this.

    It's not brilliant but I don't mind it... especially all the activity it's existence would bring to downtown.
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    Looks like some work is getting started on 108street now. all the trees are gone, with barricades over top and traffic cones placed on the stumps, and some pavement was being torn up yesterday when I went by

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    yup, saw all of the elevations and shots marked
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    ^ host the image somewhere, then provide a web link to that image.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grish View Post
    ^ host the image somewhere, then provide a web link to that image.
    I will try again later. You will love the image.
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    Default Reminds me of Cuba

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    I know it's not much, but I'm assuming that this little bit of work was done in expectation of the work on 108st. This hydrant is in front of Petrolium Plaza.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?saved=1
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    I know this is a year away, but I think that Capital Boulevard will be abuzz with activity on Canada Day next year!
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Oh yeah, well with the plaza open there will be a great opportunity to expand celebrations down the boulevard and up to Jasper Ave. Especially because of construction right now the Leg grounds are quite isolated from the rest of downtown.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Creation of ‘signature’ street underway in downtown Edmonton

    Two-year, $17.6-million project will transform 108th Street into five-block ceremonial street ending at Legislature

    BY GORDON KENT, EDMONTONJOURNAL.COM JULY 27, 2011 12:23 PM



    STORYPHOTOS ( 3 )



    More Images »

    This is an artist's rendering of the proposed development Capital Boulevard in downtown Edmonton from the Alberta Legislature to MacEwan University along 108th Street.
    Photograph by: Supplied, edmontonjournal.com
    EDMONTON - The city has started work to turn 108th Street into a pedestrian-friendly “signature” Capital Boulevard tied in to a revitalized Legislature grounds.

    “Over the next two years, Edmonton will witness the transformation of 108th Street into a five-block-long ceremonial street,” Stephane Labonne, director of the office of great neighbourhoods, said Wednesday.

    “It will be Edmonton’s signature street.”

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...547/story.html
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    "The rectangular reflecting and wading pool in front of the legislature is being closed due to mechanical problems, the province has said."

    Again, this better be reopened.
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    More indepth story of Cap Blvd redevelopment here:
    http://www.630ched.com/Channels/Reg/...spx?ID=1463407
    The idea is to create a pedestrian-friendly ceremonial street, that connects the Legislature north five blocks to Grant MacEwan University.

    "In the mid-section of every block, there is going to be an island," says Van Sickle. "And, that island feature you'll go around as a vehicle and that is the place where the pedestrian crossing will be as well. So, there's going to be an island a little bit of a refuge for pedestrians to stand, look down the street, take a picture, enjoy where they are, (etc)."

    Wider sidewalks are part of the package, too.

    "They'll look quite a bit more generous and there will be some components in the middle of the sidewalk, like street lighting that has a stone base, and there will be considerably more planting than you see now."

    Van Sickle goes on to say city planners are working with the individual private building owners to enhance the entrances to their property.

    "We've redesigned their front area and they'll come to the table as they do improvements like the Petroleum Plaza are coming to the table. They're doing improvements to their whole front port as it relates to Capital Boulevard. It sort of encourages private property owners to rethink how their buildings look."

    The idea of Capital Boulevard dates back to 1980 with the downtown plan. However, the city wanted individual property owners to help pay for the upgrade over standard road redevelopment, and they balked at the idea. The city is now paying the whole $17.6 million shot.

    The work will be done in time for the September, 2012 opening of the renovated Federal Building, which will also see the Legislature grounds landscaped with a new plaza south of 99th Avenue, complete with 100 fountains, a new ice rink, and indoor and outdoor gathering places.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    "It sort of encourages private property owners to rethink how their buildings look."

    Watch for more of this...
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    "complete with 100 fountains"

    ...What?

    Seriously? One hundred fountains?

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    ^... if you call them 'fountains'. They are 1/2-1" jets of water, think old WEM foodcourts etc.... that combine to create a wonderful water area/fountain.
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    Ok that makes more sense.

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    Starting to look good people....check out the section between 99 and 100 ave when your in the area next. I'll try to post pics next time I have a camera in hand!
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    I think that it is starting to look really good too. However, I must admit that I am not too impressed with the quality of the work done on the sidewalks. The concrete is all wavy in parts, and the lines in the sidewalk are not "crisp".

    One other thing. Does anyone know if they usually powerwash sidewalks after they are done? My biggest pet peeve is that they drive bobcats all over brand new sidewalks and leave black rubber marks everywhere.

    Dang, I just re-read my post. I am getting cranky in my old age! ha ha Overall, I do like the project. I just wanted to make that clear to everyone

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    For some thought and comparison, Bloor was just redone in Tdot.


    (http://urbantoronto.ca/sites/default...3809-11076.jpg)
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    So after seeing the continued degradation of the completed section I have to say "I told you so "
    The too short granite (?) columns that already toppled or are damaged, the lack of seating, the stark and therefor weak invitation to join in the space .....
    The whole thing comes off as "Get rid of the parking and we're done"
    So not impressed
    Still waiting for the Arlington site to be reborn .......

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    My worry about a street like this is some people will have no respect for it. They'll drive into the artwork, or vandalize the displays.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    I'm not going to worry too much just yet as there is still lots more work to be done on the street. They have yet to install the center pieces in the middle of the semi completed block. Other than the columns little else has yet been installed. I think that once more of the additions have been made this spring/summer and especially when they start transforming the road north of Jasper ave this project will look that much better especially because that northern section already looks sooo bad right now.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  85. #185
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    Edmcowboy11, I guess I have to look a little further and have faith in this.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  86. #186
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    I was looking at what was being done along the street the other day and I saw that they have closed off a section of 108st where they have done a bunch of work already. It looks like they will be installing the first island in the fenced off area. There are signs of work here and there but I'm still quite surprised as to how slow it seems to be moving along.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  87. #187
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    I've seen a lot of work at 108 Street as they're tearing up 108 Street at 102 Avenue as well as south of Jasper. Still, I think I'd like to see this project kick some ***** in July.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  88. #188

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    My wife works at 44 cap. Lots of work over the last 2 months.

    Will be picking her up for lunch today, will see if anything worthy of photos exists...

  89. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueline View Post
    So after seeing the continued degradation of the completed section I have to say "I told you so "
    The too short granite (?) columns that already toppled or are damaged, the lack of seating, the stark and therefor weak invitation to join in the space .....
    The whole thing comes off as "Get rid of the parking and we're done"
    So not impressed
    Maybe wait till it is finished...
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blueline View Post
    So after seeing the continued degradation of the completed section I have to say "I told you so ..... The whole thing comes off as "Get rid of the parking and we're done" So not impressed
    I'm thinking, you're talking about the Bloor Street example Ian offered.

    If only 'cause not one section of Capital has been completed, although 99th to 100 ave will likely be done by fall. Barring a repeat of last year's monsoon season, maybe 100 to Jasper will be done too.
    ... gobsmacked

  91. #191
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    Current state of construction on Capital Boulevard can be seen in this pic. They're completely shut down 108 St between 100 Ave and Jasper and have torn it up.

    Last edited by ScottieA; 20-06-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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  92. #192
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    Thanks for the picture. Glad to see some actual work going on. I hope they will be able to start on the north side of Jasper ave soon too. On a side note, its also interesting to see the patio for the bar coming along I wonder if they will have it somewhat open to the street or will it be a big fence along the sidewalk?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  93. #193
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    From the looks of it, the big fence only is only on the parking lot side of the patio. My guess is a small fence along 108 St.
    Don't feed the trolls!

  94. #194
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    Looks rather high-up from the back entrance. They better have a wheelchair ramp.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Railing posts for the patio are being put up as we speak. It looks like it is black/darkbrown metal. Hopefully glass goes in between, but i guess decorative steel isn't the end of the world.

  96. #196
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    Beat me to it. It would likely be glass.
    Don't feed the trolls!

  97. #197
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    108 St between Jasper and 102 Ave is now closed and it now looks like they are beginning work on that section as well.
    Last edited by ScottieA; 25-06-2012 at 02:35 PM. Reason: Changed the status of the construction
    Don't feed the trolls!

  98. #198
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    ^Now that will be nice. The stretch north of Jasper ave has seemed to be the most run down looking part. This will definitely make the area nicer. Now Norquest has to just start working on their expansion plans and the area will really start to take off.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  99. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottieA View Post
    108 St between Jasper and 102 Ave is now closed and it now looks like they are beginning work on that section as well.
    I know the end results will be good and all, but that's where I park when I want some Oodle Noodle
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  100. #200
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    Impark lot behind the building...
    Don't feed the trolls!

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