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Thread: River Valley Gondola - Bridging the City

  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Simply put, Edmonton needs a special destination and that is this place; we need a 'waterfront' that attracts tens/hundreds of thousands a year.
    Winnipeg has The Forks. It's cool and all but is it a "Need"? We're looking at cancelling or delaying WLRT, the Lewis Farms Rec Centre (the pool of which is going to be the olympic class replacement while the Kinsman pool is refurbished) and numerous other projects and purchases like the electric buses.

    So yeah, let's start yet another multi million dollar project downtown. Wasn't LMP supposed to be a downtown water destination?

    Of you can find private developers for this, go for it.

  2. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Simply put, Edmonton needs a special destination and that is this place; we need a 'waterfront' that attracts tens/hundreds of thousands a year.
    Sounds great to me, as airy-fairy sounding as it is. I was also in favour of an artificial beach, the funicular, etc. Nonetheless attracts them from where? Attracts them from spending their money at other Edmonton events and businesses? (A lot of business owners may not like the competition or having to subsidize it.) Or attracts them from outside the city? Or provides a local attraction to prevent them from going somewhere else to spend it?

    Ad far as special destinations: the New RAM, the arena...

  3. #303
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    Make no mistake here, there will be a lot of private money needed/available for this sort of project if structured properly.
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  4. #304

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    But it’s still a want, not a need.

    We have unfunded & underfunded needs to pay for before we try and artificially recreate Granville Island divorced of context next to operational critical infrastructure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    But it’s still a want, not a need.

    We have unfunded & underfunded needs to pay for before we try and artificially recreate Granville Island divorced of context next to operational critical infrastructure.
    next to operational critical infrastructure? you mean like an active cement plant or something? because it didn't stop epcor from building a new office building beside that same infrastructure.

    as for the unfunded & underfunded needs, are you somehow suggesting that vancouver's downtown east side would not have the same problem with unfunded & underfunded needs if granville island had been left to its own devices?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  6. #306

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    next to operational critical infrastructure? you mean like an active cement plant or something? because it didn't stop epcor from building a new office building beside that same infrastructure.
    No, I mean like the water treatment plant & the substation responsible for much of the CBD. Actual critical infrastructure.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    as for the unfunded & underfunded needs, are you somehow suggesting that vancouver's downtown east side would not have the same problem with unfunded & underfunded needs if granville island had been left to its own devices?
    No. That's entirely of your own devising & invention. I'm just saying we've got far more important things to be spending money on than subsidizing more high concept chi-chi "Field of Dreams" build-it-and-they-will-come malarkey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    next to operational critical infrastructure? you mean like an active cement plant or something? because it didn't stop epcor from building a new office building beside that same infrastructure.
    No, I mean like the water treatment plant & the substation responsible for much of the CBD. Actual critical infrastructure.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    as for the unfunded & underfunded needs, are you somehow suggesting that vancouver's downtown east side would not have the same problem with unfunded & underfunded needs if granville island had been left to its own devices?
    No. That's entirely of your own devising & invention. I'm just saying we've got far more important things to be spending money on than subsidizing more high concept chi-chi "Field of Dreams" build-it-and-they-will-come malarkey.
    you still didn't say why being beside that infrastructure is an issue. because if the power plant is a necessary part of some kind of limiting distance precluding other use, shouldn't epcor have kept it instead if giving it - and its liabilities - to the city? or placed some caveats or restrictions on title regarding any actual use? and why would those issues not have applied equally to the west as you want to now apply them to the east?

    as for spending money on high concept chi-chi, (a) i have not advocated for that, or at least not yet, and my opinion the current plans for rossdale are well known, (b) the 65 million dollar number for the power plant is not my budget, it's the city's and (c) prairie sky gondola has clearly stated that they are looking for no city money that would further jeopardize your unfunded and underfunded needs.

    might there need to be ongoing discussions in the future about some of these things? perhaps. but those are going to need to be held regardless.
    Last edited by kcantor; 01-11-2019 at 09:39 AM.
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  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Simply put, Edmonton needs a special destination and that is this place; we need a 'waterfront' that attracts tens/hundreds of thousands a year.
    Sounds great to me, as airy-fairy sounding as it is. I was also in favour of an artificial beach, the funicular, etc. Nonetheless attracts them from where? Attracts them from spending their money at other Edmonton events and businesses? (A lot of business owners may not like the competition or having to subsidize it.) Or attracts them from outside the city? Or provides a local attraction to prevent them from going somewhere else to spend it?

    Ad far as special destinations: the New RAM, the arena...
    That's the thing. There is only so much discretionary cash that people have, especially in these tough times. Every time you open a new venue; entertainment, drinking or restaurant, you are simply moving spending dollars from an established business to a new one. Open a new arena and the old one was closed and taxpayers are on the hook. Open the Ice district and Whyte Avenue suffers. Open a club and another one folds as people flock to the latest hotspot.

    I like the plans for the Rossdale Powerplant in concept but $65 million in public money will hurt established private business that already pay taxes and technically are subsidizing any new venue

    If hundreds of thousands go to the waterfront, they are not going to other Edmonton businesses.

    People have to stop believing that new money is created out of thin air. Edmontonians personal discretionary budget is relatively fixed.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  9. #309

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    Put the Nordic spa in the plant

  10. #310

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    Too bad they removed the high pressure boilers. Ultra fast spa...
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  11. #311

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    What makes the Power Plant destination in Rossdale a special place. I can't even follow why it would be going there other than it being a specious way for the city to have rationale to fix up the power plant. Why not just take the gondala to some area of the city that is interesting now?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  12. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you still didn't say why being beside that infrastructure is an issue. because if the power plant is a necessary part of some kind of limiting distance precluding other use, shouldn't epcor have kept it instead if giving it - and its liabilities - to the city? or placed some caveats or restrictions on title regarding any actual use? and why would those issues not have applied equally to the west as you want to now apply them to the east?
    It was more along the lines of the desirability rather than any operational concerns. You can hear the audible hum of the substation when adjacent to the power plant & there's constant & frequent construction & projects at the water treatment plant, neither of which will be leaving the site at any point in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    as for spending money on high concept chi-chi, (a) i have not advocated for that, or at least not yet, and my opinion the current plans for rossdale are well known,
    Did I say you did advocate for it? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    (b) the 65 million dollar number for the power plant is not my budget, it's the city's and
    I don't care who's come up with the figure, it's money we can't afford to spend regardless. I never stated it was your budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    (c) prairie sky gondola has clearly stated that they are looking for no city money that would further jeopardize your unfunded and underfunded needs.
    They're not asking for any money yet, but they're still a long, long way from fruition.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    might there need to be ongoing discussions in the future about some of these things? perhaps. but those are going to need to be held regardless.
    So long as those future discussions are on the other side of the austerity, petulant cuts & induced recession the UCP are foisting upon Edmonton & Alberta I have no objections. But at this point we need to stop adding new wants to the list & start focusing on the needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    ...

    ... You can hear the audible hum of the substation when adjacent to the power plant & there's constant & frequent construction & projects at the water treatment plant, neither of which will be leaving the site at any point in the future.

    ...
    so, at the end of the day your real concern is just that this project will make the rossdale experience no different than the downtown experience?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    so, at the end of the day your real concern is just that this project will make the rossdale experience no different than the downtown experience?
    No, my concern is that we're gonna blow $65M fixing up a powerplant when we have better things to spend it on.

    That being said, I much prefer Rossdale to other areas of Downtown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Put the Nordic spa in the plant
    This please and thank you.
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  16. #316

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    Two terrible ideas don't make a good one. The only way I'd even consider supporting that would be if the Nordic Spa people & the Gondola people had to pay the full freight of fixing up the plant.
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  17. #317

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    Brisbane has an old power plant by the river that had become disused. It was turned into an arts centre with galleries, theatres, dining, and farmers markets. It's certainly become a destination.


    Source: https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/what...erhouse-events


    Source: http://functionreviews.com/function-...-event-spaces/


    Source: https://www.thecreativeissue.com.au/...ne-powerhouse/


    Source: https://www.hiddencitysecrets.com.au...ne-powerhouse/


    Source: https://brisbanepowerhouse.org/visit/eat-drink/markets/

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    Step back a few thousand feet... in that there is a hope to make this a significant destination for our city and region. Let's celebrate the history of this area as a gathering place, create cultural opportunities, provide new entertainment options and allow people to perhaps have a glass/bite overlooking our city's best asset.
    www.decl.org

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  19. #319

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    ^^ Toronto power plant at the harbor.
    https://images.app.goo.gl/GpbCcC6Y5F5gcwQU8
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  20. #320

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    Edmonton has an unusually deep river valley and the Rossdale Flats is located at very low elevation relative to the top banks and is a huge flat that is far removed from anything else. The Power Plant being situated right there is OK, and some rework of it could bring in some traffic and particularly river valley users. But it is far from linked to the DT or any other areas. Its a really poor terminus for a Gondola. It isn't a destination.


    Agreed with Noodle that theres multiple other priorities now. If this Gondola was a bank to bank configuration somewhere say connecting DT to Old Strathcona then it arguably services a transportation need. One going to Rossdale Flats services really nothing and would have lower ridership.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  21. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Step back a few thousand feet... in that there is a hope to make this a significant destination for our city and region. Let's celebrate the history of this area as a gathering place, create cultural opportunities, provide new entertainment options and allow people to perhaps have a glass/bite overlooking our city's best asset.
    Come back down to earth. We have far more important priorities for the money than subsidizing a bunch of developers & land speculators so you can have yet another place to get your drink on. We're staring down the barrel of a recession, taxes are increasing, the City is facing cuts from the Province. Building "destinations" & subsidizing business cases for private luxury business models has to come after rebuilding our civic infrastructure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Edmonton has an unusually deep river valley and the Rossdale Flats is located at very low elevation relative to the top banks and is a huge flat that is far removed from anything else. The Power Plant being situated right there is OK, and some rework of it could bring in some traffic and particularly river valley users. But it is far from linked to the DT or any other areas. Its a really poor terminus for a Gondola. It isn't a destination.


    Agreed with Noodle that theres multiple other priorities now. If this Gondola was a bank to bank configuration somewhere say connecting DT to Old Strathcona then it arguably services a transportation need. One going to Rossdale Flats services really nothing and would have lower ridership.
    It would not be a terminus, but rather a mid-point.
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  23. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Put the Nordic spa in the plant
    This please and thank you.
    Yeah lets put a huge Nordic spa in and around an old Power Plant that has rust problems and is compromised already.
    Last edited by Replacement; 01-11-2019 at 12:58 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  24. #324

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    It is not on the flood plain
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  25. #325

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Edmonton has an unusually deep river valley and the Rossdale Flats is located at very low elevation relative to the top banks and is a huge flat that is far removed from anything else. The Power Plant being situated right there is OK, and some rework of it could bring in some traffic and particularly river valley users. But it is far from linked to the DT or any other areas. Its a really poor terminus for a Gondola. It isn't a destination.


    Agreed with Noodle that theres multiple other priorities now. If this Gondola was a bank to bank configuration somewhere say connecting DT to Old Strathcona then it arguably services a transportation need. One going to Rossdale Flats services really nothing and would have lower ridership.
    It would not be a terminus, but rather a mid-point.
    Is that still the case? This comprises the typically poor news reporting we get now. From this article its impossible to tell.


    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ssdale-station


    Other articles I checked were similarly bad at not giving information on the overall line. Its seemed like all the articles lately are morphed into being about Rossdale, despite being about the Gondola.
    Last edited by Replacement; 01-11-2019 at 12:59 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  26. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Step back a few thousand feet... in that there is a hope to make this a significant destination for our city and region. Let's celebrate the history of this area as a gathering place, create cultural opportunities, provide new entertainment options and allow people to perhaps have a glass/bite overlooking our city's best asset.
    Excellent idea. Get some private backers to help you make it a reality.

  27. #327

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    Regina turned its old power plant into a Science Center...

    I'm okay with this privately funded project until it's no longer a privately funded project... which I suspect is coming soon, and will hopefully be refused.
    A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims, but accomplices.

  28. #328

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    because if the power plant is a necessary part of some kind of limiting distance precluding other use, shouldn't epcor have kept it instead if giving it - and its liabilities - to the city?
    It's still EPCOR's.

    The Rossdale Power Plant is owned by EPCOR Utilities Inc. As part of the River Crossing initiative, the City of Edmonton is working with EPCOR on a transfer of land in Rossdale that would see the power plant come into City ownership. This would be a step towards bringing new life to the power plant complex as part of a broader activation of this culturally and historically significant portion of the river valley.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...t-history.aspx
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  29. #329

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Regina turned its old power plant into a Science Center...

    I'm okay with this privately funded project until it's no longer a privately funded project... which I suspect is coming soon, and will hopefully be refused.
    If this project was intended to be for the exclusive benefit a small but wealthy minority of the population, if it was further backed by a highly-capitalized corporation with strong cash flow and a monopoly on the local market, and if that corporation was led by a prominent and well-connected real estate magnate, the city would surely... open their cheque book and say "how much do you want?"

    Unfortunately this project has the potential to be for the mutual benefit a much broader segment of the population, to not have the backing of such deep pockets, and have a business case that makes private capital much harder to come by. In other words, it's a project quite suited to public funding if done right. So the city will no doubt respond very differently because hockey.

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    It is not on the flood plain
    actually, i'm pretty sure it is. and, if it isn't, it's at least close enough that it should be/might as well be.

    http://maps.srd.alberta.ca/MapToPDF/...&mapScale=5000

    this was from 2013 (courtesy of inthreedimensions on flickr):

    2013.06.23 River Depth 9.2m, 2800m3/s by inthreedimensions, on Flickr

    i used to have some 100 year floodplain maps but don't have access anymore. i seem to recall that the power plant was within that and that was one of the reasons it was never considered as an option for the aga or the ram and that it won't be considered by the u of a as a museum or gallery for some of their collections for the same reasons.

    as for the above photo, it was dramatic at the time only for potential, not actual. it did rise as high as the previous event (2006?) and was nowhere near 1915 levels.

    some of the photos here - https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...the-flood.aspx - from 1915 show water all the way up to the brewery and at least a couple of feet above the main floor of risely & co groceries at 10029 97th street.

    i also believe that the recent flood risk maps from the city/epcor that you might be thinking about were an assessment of localized flooding risk due to rain and insufficient sewer/storm water holding capacity and not overland river flooding risk.
    Last edited by kcantor; 01-11-2019 at 02:00 PM.
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  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Put the Nordic spa in the plant
    This please and thank you.
    That would have been a no-brainer if the powerplant was still operating - free waste heat.
    Though with the electrical substation still there, cogeneration might still make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    because if the power plant is a necessary part of some kind of limiting distance precluding other use, shouldn't epcor have kept it instead if giving it - and its liabilities - to the city?
    It's still EPCOR's.

    The Rossdale Power Plant is owned by EPCOR Utilities Inc. As part of the River Crossing initiative, the City of Edmonton is working with EPCOR on a transfer of land in Rossdale that would see the power plant come into City ownership. This would be a step towards bringing new life to the power plant complex as part of a broader activation of this culturally and historically significant portion of the river valley.
    https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...t-history.aspx
    i thought that transaction/transfer had been completed.

    apologies to you and the thread for being wrong.

    as it's not done, i will be more than a little interested to see how - if? - that does get resolved
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  33. #333

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    I wasn't 100% sure on whether it had been done yet or not. I do know the City isn't being very cooperative when it comes to doing these land swaps lately.
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    Today we submitted our phase one feasibility report

    to our friends at the City of Edmonton.

    We hired the brightest minds in the urban gondola industry and collaborated with the City and its agencies. We all worked diligently to gather the facts, figures, and data that would inform a GO or a NO GO decision on our project.

    The feasibility work was initiated to demonstrate the economic and technical viability of the project. We were prepared, should something catastrophic be uncovered by the experts, to pull the plug.

    The approach to arriving at a GO or a NO GO decision alongside our stakeholders was important to our investors, as well as the City and our elected officials. We have been steadfast with our intent to move forward in a way that maximizes public benefit. To achieve this, each and every stakeholder needs to be presented with the straight goods.

    I am a very optimistic ‘anything is possible’ person. I was the first person to invest in Prairie Sky at a time when we had no plan and no real insight into whether the project could actually work. I just believed in it. And, so did many others.

    Both technically in terms of infrastructure, and economically in terms of private industry’s capacity to get this done right, our phase one feasibility report tells a compelling story. It’s a GO.

    I can’t thank the individuals, companies, and public agencies that rolled up their sleeves to enable us enough. Without the level of engagement we had during the last six months I would be left wondering about the quality of our feasibility work. Luckily, I’m not worried at all.

    Every morning when I get out of bed I am excited by the real possibility that Edmonton could beat Burnaby, BC and Toronto, ON and be the first major Canadian city to have an urban gondola. It is not a matter of ‘IF’ the infrastructure is coming to the urban setting, it is a simple matter who will get there first.

    Today we have a robust plan and the capacity to execute. We also have the straight goods.

    We are looking forward to continuing the discussion with the City and Mayor and Council on next steps.
    @PrairieSkyGondola
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    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post

    We hired the brightest minds....


    Yup.

    This sounds to Top_Dawg like the grandpappy of all money pits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post

    We hired the brightest minds....


    Yup.

    This sounds to Top_Dawg like the grandpappy of all money pits.
    maybe if you spent more time paying attention to that end of anatomy instead of the other end it wouldn't sound like that?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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