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Thread: House Prices - due to tumble?

  1. #501

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    It seems to me that houses in the Edmonton area are on the market longer than usually.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  2. #502

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    Sellers offer trips, freebies as Calgary condos sit empty - Calgary - CBC News


    'We aren’t even half-way through this because of the fact that they haven’t quit building yet'


    http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/c...ives-1.4100985

  3. #503
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    I cannot argue with...

    "We're in for a long ride in Calgary and Edmonton. And I just think that speculators are really being shown to not have a Plan B, and investors are doing incredibly well, because they've had a plan B – i.e. rent it out."

    Or...

    "It's an inevitable cycle. We get the boom-bust. We all know it. We've got the bumper stickers to prove it. But this is a pretty major cycle and it's going to take some time to resolve."

    However, as to what part of the stagnation/price increase/correction/stagnation cycle we'll see next is up for debate. I suspect that if the current economic trend continues we'll see a period of no growth. Of course if a number of condo owners blink and lowered asking prices that could start a correction; on the other hand, if OPEC members blink and raise oil prices that economic stimulus could trigger renewed activity in the real estate market.

    For the sake of clarification I distinguish a difference between a price drop and a loss in value brought about by inflation over a period of time.

    I agree that no one can predict the future, but it's not too hard to interpret the historical cycles connected to oil prices. People can make decisions based on their interpretations and as long as oil remains a key player in the energy market those interpretations shouldn't be too far off the mark.
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  4. #504

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    I think a risk approach might be useful. Apply different scenarios, plausible and implausible. Then I feel people would automatically make adjustments for the most plausible situations in their mind. The implausible scenarios are useful for helping recognize high risk issues as they approach (the implausible starts to become plausible).*

    If you buy a condo or house can you maintain ownership if it's price falls? Is a 5% real price drop ok? How about a 10%, or 25% or 50-75% drop? Some people will dump their property even though they have the cash flow to retain it. They were in in just for the capital gains.

    Can you restrain ownership I'd you are single and you loose your job or have a disabling accident? As a couple? A divorce occurs? Or some family issues arises and say a child or relative somehow forces a sale?

    What if interest rates rise by the mortgage reset date? To 5%, 10%, 20%?

    *eg. Some event occurs that brings forward a reality and extreme severity of near imminent life extinguishing global warming. Unless most oil and coal production is halted within the decade... or a wonderful new and dirt cheap battery technology appears out of the blue... or war... plague...
    Last edited by KC; 13-05-2017 at 04:48 PM.

  5. #505

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    A lot of people paid top dollar for some shady construction .

  6. #506

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    In Home Capital’s Mortgage Mess, Blame the ‘Unlucky’ Brokers - Bloomberg

    Excerpt:
    “You will always be behind as a regulator," said Thorsten Koeppl, an associate professor in the economics department at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario. “You’re being outsmarted by the marketplace. We can’t avoid a crisis. But what we’ve learned from 2008 in the U.S. is how to deal with the crisis. And that’s what we can take away."...

    "As part of his research, he speaks almost daily with brokers.

    “One thing that always surprises my U.S. clients is how prevalent these broker fraud examples are in Canada because it wasn’t until the crash when all the fraud was revealed in the U.S., and we’re not there yet in Canada," Rabidoux said by phone. ..."

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...nlucky-brokers
    Last edited by KC; 23-05-2017 at 11:05 AM.

  7. #507

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    Toronto Homeowners Are Suddenly in a Rush to Sell - Bloomberg
    Excerpt"
    "Home Capital may be achieving what so many policy measures failed to do: cool down a housing market that soared as much as 33 percent in March from a year earlier. "


    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-market-slows

  8. #508

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    Some more Toronto house price trivia.

    Toronto Home Prices Suffer Worst Monthly Decline in 17 Years - Bloomberg

    In March, sales were up 18 percent and the average home price soared 33 percent from the prior year to C$916,567. That began to turn the following month when listings jumped 34 percent. Average prices started cooling in May, rising 15 percent, and then up only 6 percent in June.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-sales-plunge

    Canadians should be worried about real estate slowdown, says expert - Home | The Current with Anna Maria Tremonti | CBC Radio

    "I think house prices going down doesn't mean that we're going to see a rash of defaults. But I'm worried about the household finances of the nation. People are devoting huge chunks of their cash flow to their mortgage. How are people saving?"

    http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/t...pert-1.4211831
    Last edited by KC; 03-08-2017 at 06:45 AM.

  9. #509
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    Canada's Housing Bubble Has Vanished Without a 'Crash Landing," say economists...

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/canada+housing+bubble+vanished+without+crash+landi ng+economists/14216329/story.html


    Quoted from Article:

    "He [David Rosenberg] believes that if the GTA's declines match what occurred in Vancouver, the correction will probably last little more than a year, "and prove to be a healthy environment (outside of those who bought at to close to the peak.)

    Rosenberg also noted that sales activity is up in non-bubbly areas such as Ottawa, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Regina and Hamilton."


    Imagine that!
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  10. #510
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    I don't know if I'd agree that the bubble has "vanished". A few months of stabilization in prices in the two hottest markets doesn't mean that they aren't still massively over valued or that they've suddenly become affordable to the average person. But that doesn't mean there inevitably has to be a crash, either.

    As usual with real estate market reporting, the media is far too fast and loose mixing up statements about quantities of sales vs. average sale prices. Maybe the reporter understands that difference, but the majority of their readership likely doesn't. And I suspect the media knows that, or at least is aware that a headline of "SALES DOWN 30% IN VANCOUVER LAST MONTH" will get them a lot of hits because many readers will assume that's average prices, and not number of sales.

  11. #511
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    I'd agree about the hyperbolic headline, but what I take from the article is the prediction of a little more moderation and cautious activity in the hotter markets like Toronto and Vancouver.

    I was more interested in the comments of the "non-bubbly" markets, specifically Edmonton, that are showing an increase in activity, considering that this seven year old thread was started to discuss the possibility of tumbling prices in the Edmonton "bubble." We are still in a time of soft oil prices yet our housing market, although somewhat cooler, remains fairly healthy.
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  12. #512

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    It'll be interesting to see how our house prices react now that unemployment is ratcheting up.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  13. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyleStreetBoy View Post
    Canada's Housing Bubble Has Vanished Without a 'Crash Landing," say economists...

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/canada+housing+bubble+vanished+without+crash+landi ng+economists/14216329/story.html


    Quoted from Article:

    "He [David Rosenberg] believes that if the GTA's declines match what occurred in Vancouver, the correction will probably last little more than a year, "and prove to be a healthy environment (outside of those who bought at to close to the peak.)

    Rosenberg also noted that sales activity is up in non-bubbly areas such as Ottawa, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Regina and Hamilton."


    Imagine that!
    This reminds me of what the "experts" in the US were saying around 2007 - don't worry, there will be a modest decline to remove some of the speculative excess and then after a brief pause the party will resume, perhaps on a more subdued basis. There will be no crash, because this time it is different - don't worry your pretty little head, sleep tight. Actually, it isn't different this time.

    Inventory is going up a lot in Toronto now, which means an end to panic buying and the bidding wars that were driving up prices. Sooner or later some sellers (those that are more motivated, ie. need to sell) will start to lower their prices. Interest rates are likely to go up, which will make prices more unaffordable for buyers and this time foreign buyers will not be there to quickly rescue sellers, because of the foreign buyers taxes.

    Over a number of years prices have gone up in some markets at a much faster rate than incomes, this is not sustainable in the long run. Mortgage rules have now been tightened, foreign buyers discouraged and interest rates are likely to increase. It took quite a while for the momentum of steadily rising prices to come to an end or be brought to an end, but now that it has the trends favor things going in a different direction for some time.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    Over a number of years prices have gone up in some markets at a much faster rate than incomes, this is not sustainable in the long run.


    In an era of falling rates, in which we have been up until the last year, it is entirely sustainable. Metrics that focus only on the absolute debt amount vs. income, and not the cost of servicing that debt, are pretty much useless because of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    It took quite a while for the momentum of steadily rising prices to come to an end or be brought to an end, but now that it has the trends favor things going in a different direction for some time.


    I don't disagree with you. I think it's likely we'll see a long period of stagnation in home prices as interest rates rise and incomes catch up with debt servicing. But that's not what Hilliard MacBeth and most of our national media have been calling for, for 5+ years now. They've been calling for an outright bust, with prices declining by 20-30% or more almost overnight. But most quotes I've seen of his (I haven't read his book), he seems to completely ignore the economic and financial factors behind the US financial collapse in 2007/8. I mean, we call it a "financial collapse", not a "house price collapse" for a reason. Yes, the US housing market was hugely overpriced, but that's about where the similarities end between our housing market, greater economy and financial system.

  15. #515

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    Over a number of years prices have gone up in some markets at a much faster rate than incomes, this is not sustainable in the long run.


    In an era of falling rates, in which we have been up until the last year, it is entirely sustainable. Metrics that focus only on the absolute debt amount vs. income, and not the cost of servicing that debt, are pretty much useless because of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    It took quite a while for the momentum of steadily rising prices to come to an end or be brought to an end, but now that it has the trends favor things going in a different direction for some time.


    I don't disagree with you. I think it's likely we'll see a long period of stagnation in home prices as interest rates rise and incomes catch up with debt servicing. But that's not what Hilliard MacBeth and most of our national media have been calling for, for 5+ years now. They've been calling for an outright bust, with prices declining by 20-30% or more almost overnight. But most quotes I've seen of his (I haven't read his book), he seems to completely ignore the economic and financial factors behind the US financial collapse in 2007/8. I mean, we call it a "financial collapse", not a "house price collapse" for a reason. Yes, the US housing market was hugely overpriced, but that's about where the similarities end between our housing market, greater economy and financial system.
    Well the rot starts at the bottom. If home prices are over valued, whether it is due to low interest rates or too easy lending, once those conditions change the asset value will decline and mortgages are financial assets based on the value of the underlying assets (ie. houses). If the value of the underlying asset goes down then it may cause a financial collapse. In the US asset values declined before the financial collapse, so it wasn't just some financial problem detached from reality, one actually led to the other.

    I would argue Canada's financial system is more robust than the one in the US was around 2008, so I don't think a decline in housing prices will likely lead to a financial collapse, but that does not mean house prices won't decline perhaps significantly.

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    If the value of the underlying asset goes down then it may cause a financial collapse. In the US asset values declined before the financial collapse, so it wasn't just some financial problem detached from reality, one actually led to the other.


    In hindsight, the entire US financial system was primed for an implosion. It was just looking for a trigger, which ended up being house prices (which started declining almost 2 years before the actual financial crisis, by the way). No one can reasonably make the same claim about Canada's financial system in general, or the home financing sector in particular. It's night and day. We've already seen one sub-prime lender stumble, sorry I mean "alternative mortgage provider", and the financial system just kind of shrugged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    I would argue Canada's financial system is more robust than the one in the US was around 2008, so I don't think a decline in housing prices will likely lead to a financial collapse, but that does not mean house prices won't decline perhaps significantly.


    I'm not saying it won't happen, I just don't see it as inevitable as a lot of financial commentators have made it out to be. And comparisons to the US collapse are almost always made without any caveats about how the financial and mortgage systems between the two countries could not be much more different from each other. They just gloss that over like it's irrelevant, when in fact it's central.

  17. #517

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    If the value of the underlying asset goes down then it may cause a financial collapse. In the US asset values declined before the financial collapse, so it wasn't just some financial problem detached from reality, one actually led to the other.


    In hindsight, the entire US financial system was primed for an implosion. It was just looking for a trigger, which ended up being house prices (which started declining almost 2 years before the actual financial crisis, by the way). No one can reasonably make the same claim about Canada's financial system in general, or the home financing sector in particular. It's night and day. We've already seen one sub-prime lender stumble, sorry I mean "alternative mortgage provider", and the financial system just kind of shrugged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave
    I would argue Canada's financial system is more robust than the one in the US was around 2008, so I don't think a decline in housing prices will likely lead to a financial collapse, but that does not mean house prices won't decline perhaps significantly.


    I'm not saying it won't happen, I just don't see it as inevitable as a lot of financial commentators have made it out to be. And comparisons to the US collapse are almost always made without any caveats about how the financial and mortgage systems between the two countries could not be much more different from each other. They just gloss that over like it's irrelevant, when in fact it's central.
    Housing prices go through cycles and most significant cyclical declines do not lead necessarily lead to a financial crisis. The US in 2007 - 08 was an exception and the financial crisis made the decline in housing prices even worse with an onslaught of foreclosures. In some places prices went down by over 50%.

    However housing prices can still decline significantly (say 15% to 30%) without such a financial crisis. Just because the financial system is fairly robust does not mean housing prices can not go down.

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    My dad keeps remarking on about how Edmonton didn't crater like it did in the 80's. True we didn't see interest rate increases like we did then, but I can see two factors why two things were stagnant instead of disastrous.

    1) Immigration and refugee claims - there's only so many major cities in Canada and Edmonton is one of them and the government is piling them in. Not all of them go to Vancouver and Toronto.

    2) Airbnb - right now there are 1,148 active listings. That's 1,148 less listings on kijiji/rental sites, and it softened the blow to the long term rental market and probably kept some people out of foreclosure/listing on MLS. Sure there were incentives and rental decreases - but it would have been worse here. In booming markets it is wide publicized that these services create a vacancy emergency and governments act accordingly. But, in a soft market, the silver lining is it can help stabilize a shaky market.

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    As an example, the Capilano subdivision has 1,100 dwellings in it - that's like a whole neighborhood (in some cases) in Edmonton off the market in one way or the other.

  20. #520

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    My dad keeps remarking on about how Edmonton didn't crater like it did in the 80's. True we didn't see interest rate increases like we did then, but I can see two factors why two things were stagnant instead of disastrous.

    1) Immigration and refugee claims - there's only so many major cities in Canada and Edmonton is one of them and the government is piling them in. Not all of them go to Vancouver and Toronto.

    2) Airbnb - right now there are 1,148 active listings. That's 1,148 less listings on kijiji/rental sites, and it softened the blow to the long term rental market and probably kept some people out of foreclosure/listing on MLS. Sure there were incentives and rental decreases - but it would have been worse here. In booming markets it is wide publicized that these services create a vacancy emergency and governments act accordingly. But, in a soft market, the silver lining is it can help stabilize a shaky market.
    Yes, I think the fact interest rates were still going down at the time the economy here slowed down provided most of the cushion. Also, I don't think as many people left Alberta as in the 80's, certainly not homeowners. After all if you sell your home here, you probably can't afford to buy anything comparable in Toronto or Vancouver where the economy was better, so perhaps some people decided to hunker down and wait out the downturn and perhaps supplement their income with Airbnb. Edmonton is not as over priced as Toronto or Vancouver, so I don't think there will be as much of a correction here anyways.

  21. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how our house prices react now that unemployment is ratcheting up.
    Is it?

    From what I am reading the unemployment rates were affected by a loss of part time jobs, but the full time jobs are on the rise.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...sees-job-gains

    Added to that Edmonton's labour force has increased by 16,000 over the past year...

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...fss04k-eng.htm

    And unless those newcomers are taking jobs away from homeowners with mortgages, the impact shouldn't be that severe on house prices.

    I admit I could be misinformed. Can you provide some links that refute what I've read?
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  22. #522

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyleStreetBoy View Post
    Added to that Edmonton's labour force has increased by 16,000 over the past year...

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...fss04k-eng.htm

    I admit I could be misinformed. Can you provide some links that refute what I've read?
    Are we reading the same table?



    Population is up 16,000, not the labour force. Labour force is up 5,600 from a year ago, while there's 2,200 fewer jobs, leading to 7,700 more unemployed people in the workforce versus a year ago.
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  23. #523
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    [QUOTE=noodle;843637]
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyleStreetBoy View Post
    Added to that Edmonton's labour force has increased by 16,000 over the past year...

    Population is up 16,000, not the labour force. Labour force is up 5,600 from a year ago, while there's 2,200 fewer jobs, leading to 7,700 more unemployed people in the workforce versus a year ago.
    Okay, I misquoted the population vs labour force. Well spotted! But pointing out my misquote doesn't make you right.

    A 0.9 percent increase in unemployment (according to the links I posted mostly part time jobs) is an indication to you that unemployment is "ratcheting up" in Edmonton?

    That's not what folks like Sharlene Massey, John Rose, or Joe Ceci are saying in the articles I posted. Provide some information that refutes what they're saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    As an example, the Capilano subdivision has 1,100 dwellings in it - that's like a whole neighborhood (in some cases) in Edmonton off the market in one way or the other.
    That's assuming that all of those are full time air bnbs. Some people do still use them for renting out their homes while they're on vacation, work trips, etc. Recently used one in Calgary where that was the case.

  25. #525

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    Quote Originally Posted by seamusmcduffs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    As an example, the Capilano subdivision has 1,100 dwellings in it - that's like a whole neighborhood (in some cases) in Edmonton off the market in one way or the other.
    That's assuming that all of those are full time air bnbs. Some people do still use them for renting out their homes while they're on vacation, work trips, etc. Recently used one in Calgary where that was the case.
    I think the unemployment rate here was way higher here in the late 80's and the early to mid 1990's, so while the current rate seems high compared to a couple of years ago it's certainly not at depression levels. There does seem to still be some modest increase in the local population, unlike in the early 80's or early 90's when people were moving away due to the poor economy.

    I would also take the word "full time job" to mean what it says. I think Stats Canada differentiates between employed and self employed. I suppose one could be employed full time if they actually worked for the Airbnb company as an employee, but otherwise I don't think it would be categorized that way.

  26. #526
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    This must be some of that folks like Sharlene Massey, John Rose, and Joe Ceci are using to forecast that employment growth is "ratcheting up" as opposed to taking a downward trend.

    https://www.edmonton.ca/business_eco...ce-survey.aspx

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  27. #527

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoyleStreetBoy View Post
    This must be some of that folks like Sharlene Massey, John Rose, and Joe Ceci are using to forecast that employment growth is "ratcheting up" as opposed to taking a downward trend.

    https://www.edmonton.ca/business_eco...ce-survey.aspx

    There are seasonal and monthly fluctuations, so I am not sure comparing one month to the immediately preceding one is really that meaningful. However, if you compare July 2017 to July 2016, there are approximately 4,000 more people employed in Edmonton.

    I think Mr. Ceci's is probably referring to employment growth across Alberta as he is in the Provincial government, rather than just in Edmonton where it has recently been more modest than elsewhere.

  28. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    However, if you compare July 2017 to July 2016, there are approximately 4,000 more people employed in Edmonton.
    764,300 employed people July 2016
    762,100 employed people July 2017
    --------------
    2,200 less people employed in July 2017 than July 2016.

    Source: The chart BSB linked & I pasted.


    I think Mr. Ceci's is probably referring to employment growth across Alberta as he is in the Provincial government, rather than just in Edmonton where it has recently been more modest than elsewhere.
    Yeah, this.
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  29. #529

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    However, if you compare July 2017 to July 2016, there are approximately 4,000 more people employed in Edmonton.
    764,300 employed people July 2016
    762,100 employed people July 2017
    --------------
    2,200 less people employed in July 2017 than July 2016.

    Source: The chart BSB linked & I pasted.


    I think Mr. Ceci's is probably referring to employment growth across Alberta as he is in the Provincial government, rather than just in Edmonton where it has recently been more modest than elsewhere.
    Yeah, this.
    I was looking at the seasonally adjusted numbers 758.5 vs. 758.1. I realize it rounds to the thousands so 4,000 is not exact, but it is still an increase. I can't cut and paste the actual chart, but it is a link in the document referred to previously.

    https://www.edmonton.ca/business_eco...ugust_2017.pdf

  30. #530

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    In all deference to the City Economist, I'll take the numbers straight from Stats Can over the tweaked set. Let's agree it's basically a wash either way, as the ~6K point spread is negligible when compared to the ~758K total?

    From that report though:

    However, the unemployment rate isunlikely to move much lower than July’s 8.5% value as the local labour force continues to expandand individuals, discouraged by very difficult employment conditions in the second half of 2016,return to the active labour force.
    I don't think it's doom & gloom for house prices or anything, I'm just legitimately curious how they'll react to an unemployment rate that's higher than the national average for a little while, even as jobs are created.
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  31. #531

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    Canada's housing market 'highly vulnerable,' CMHC warns
    Overvaluation detected in some markets, overbuilding in others
    CBC News Posted: Oct 26, 2017

    "Other cities, including Calgary, Edmonton, Regina and St. John's, are also showing evidence ..."

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cmhc...look-1.4373251

  32. #532

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    ^The overbuilding story for Calgary and Edmonton is a bit consistent with what is happening to Reidbuilt homes:



    In Edmonton I think its more a suburb house issue, whereas in Calgary there is an overbuild in condo's in the downtown / East Village.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3823550/l...y-contractors/

    Numerous contractors and homeowners that opted to work with Edmonton-area builder ReidBuilt Homes are finding themselves in a tough spot financially, with liens being placed against houses in and around Edmonton.

    Richard and Eileen Sherburne moved into their new ReidBuilt home just over a month ago, on Sept. 15.

    They were enjoying their new house when all of a sudden, they started finding pink lien letters in their mailbox.

    “We opened that and said, ‘What?’ And then a couple of days later, four more came and we contacted a lawyer,” Richard said.

    So far, 11 liens have been placed against their home, totalling more than $50,000.
    Last edited by moahunter; 26-10-2017 at 02:33 PM.

  33. #533
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    I like Reid-Built's letter to its subs. "Jeez, sorry we didn't pay you for your previous work, but we're basically out of money and you won't be getting paid for that ever in all likelihood. At best you'll spend as much or more attempting to recover it, and it'll take years. However, if you come finish some other work, we swear we'll pay you for that right away!"

    It's always unfortunate when a company goes broke, but as a trade contractor myself, that letter stinks of bad faith and mismanagement. The number of liens placed against Reid-Built in the last week has been staggering. I haven't bothered totaling them, but it's got to be in the millions. They're taking a lot of other people's money with them as they go down. And asking others to dig with them.

  34. #534

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^The overbuilding story for Calgary and Edmonton is a bit consistent with what is happening to Reidbuilt homes:



    In Edmonton I think its more a suburb house issue, whereas in Calgary there is an overbuild in condo's in the downtown / East Village.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/3823550/l...y-contractors/

    Numerous contractors and homeowners that opted to work with Edmonton-area builder ReidBuilt Homes are finding themselves in a tough spot financially, with liens being placed against houses in and around Edmonton.

    Richard and Eileen Sherburne moved into their new ReidBuilt home just over a month ago, on Sept. 15.

    They were enjoying their new house when all of a sudden, they started finding pink lien letters in their mailbox.

    “We opened that and said, ‘What?’ And then a couple of days later, four more came and we contacted a lawyer,” Richard said.

    So far, 11 liens have been placed against their home, totalling more than $50,000.
    I am thinking the over building in Calgary and Edmonton might be more of a short term cyclical issue related to the economy. It will be resolved by either the economy improving, builders slowing down or some combination of both. The affordability issues in Toronto and Vancouver seem more intractable. I think eventually younger people in the GTA and Vancouver will get tired of living in small apartments and basements and leave. The quailty of life isn't there any more unless you are rich.

  35. #535

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    On the previous page (post 408/409) China’s ghost cities were mentioned.


    Land reclamation etc discussed here. And ‘separating the rich from the poor’:

    Inside Malaysia's Empty New Cities - YouTube

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q5BGAksVhk


    JUN 30, 2017 @ 03:01 AM22,000
    China's Most Infamous 'Ghost City' Is Rising From The Desert

    Wade Shepard , CONTRIBUTOR
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/wadeshe.../#2efad3ea6877

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