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Thread: West LRT | Downtown to Lewis Estates | Conceptual Discussion About Approved Route

  1. #1601
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    Well here is another reason now for an elevated track. The Edm Fire Dept. station 2 is saying that they have concerns with the train tracks passing right in front of the fire hall. So how about then raising the LRT to an elevated route starting at the end of the south valley line route and remain elevated until past MacEwan's station. They could even now make the route travel diagonally over some buildings and have an elevated station above the empty parking lot across the street from MacEwan.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Some councillors got back to me citing cost is the biggest concern over the many grade separations. They are more keen to separate LRT crossings in more traffic heavy suburban areas in the west and north ends. 109 st is not on their radar due to wanting to grade separate other crossings along the line and the supposed $300 million price tag and that with having the trains stop for s short amount of time at a red light at 104 ave, the line should move fairly well with the slight light priority it will be designed to have to make travel on the train quick, but not complete signal priority as the current system.
    Except by the city's own metrics 109 & 104 is already overloaded & congested while being a nexus for both vehicle/vehicle & vehicle/pedestrian collisions. Putting the train through there will make a bad situation unquestionably worse, even if the CoE's signalling malarkey works here for the first time after spectacular & ongoing failures on the last two lines that they tried it on.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times & GenWhy? will write a letter in support of the foolishness.
    That's possibly the worst intersection for congestion in the entire Downtown/Oliver Area. Nobody's been talking about the SPR corridor either being reduced to one lane, two-way, traffic. Have none of these councilors driven these routes before? Let alone during peak frequency hours?

    Mass Transit shouldn't be something that leaves a taste in one's mouth to "get out" before the disaster happens; but it is in this city for those of us dependent on the automobile.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  3. #1603

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    It's also a bit of disaster for current and potential future transit riders.

  4. #1604

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    Well here is another reason now for an elevated track. The Edm Fire Dept. station 2 is saying that they have concerns with the train tracks passing right in front of the fire hall. So how about then raising the LRT to an elevated route starting at the end of the south valley line route and remain elevated until past MacEwan's station. They could even now make the route travel diagonally over some buildings and have an elevated station above the empty parking lot across the street from MacEwan.
    Wow. I'm not sure about elevated on narrower streets downtown but right over the fire hall would be so cool.
    There can only be one.

  5. #1605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    109 at grade? GTFO of here, administration. If that's the best we can do, we don't want it. N/S travel is the major pain point in Edmonton, and this will cripple one of the highest volume arteries.
    That was my first thought as well, but Southbound traffic on 109th backing up at rush hour really has little to do with anything "downtown". It's almost 100% because of the intersection at the South end of the HLB at Garneau, and again at Whyte. So I'm not so sure that the LRT crossing would impact Southbound traffic. And similarly, it's 111th avenue that restricts Northbound traffic (less so 107th, since it has an actual left turn lane). And for E/W again, the bottlenecks are well outside of downtown, and 104th avenue tends to move quite well until 116/124 and then again at 142.

    That being said, grade separation at major intersection if reasonably possible and not crazy expensive is a no-brainer.

  6. #1606

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    I cannot help but think that all of this at-grade LRT planning is going to congest so many intersections, and remove so many lanes in key arterial roads, that in 30 years the city will NEED layered freeways in and out of downtown just so cars and buses can bypass these problems that they are creating today with the at-grade LRT.

  7. #1607

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    ^ Although your suggested outcome is not likely true, you are doing more than the city administration is doing. They are building transportation solutions looking at yesterdays needs, and ignoring tomorrows demands.

  8. #1608
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    Shoulda kept the rat hole, and the 105 st overpass

  9. #1609

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    shoulda kept the old railyard row for LRT!!!!!! even if just a small portion of it. Would've been an easy extension west and to st albert, south to the airport via high level.

  10. #1610
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    ^pretty noisy as it does those 90 degree turns. hows that 'aesthetic'? lol. those trams are pretty slow.
    funny, i always had 'london' dreams for edmonton, not 'manchester'. i guess we will always be second fiddle to vancouver, toronto, montreal, and calgary
    Maybe this will make you feel better.
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  11. #1611

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    shoulda kept the old railyard row for LRT!!!!!! even if just a small portion of it. Would've been an easy extension west and to st albert, south to the airport via high level.
    Shoulda keep the tracks down Jasper Ave. and Whyte Ave.




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  12. #1612

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    I stumbled upon this 1911 map of the Twin Cities

    Edmonton and Strathcona

    The wide red lines are the borders

    The thinner red lines are streetcar line

    They go down Whyte Ave, 99th street, Jasper Ave from Borden Park to 124th street (the WLRT has not got there yet), and 97th street, 118th ave and out to Swifts Packers on 66th street and 125th ave.

    Notably 100 years ago, more extensive than today.

    https://edmonton.skyrisecities.com/n...radial-railway

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  13. #1613
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    ^ Great find. I miss my Edmonton of the late 1970's.
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  14. #1614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    shoulda kept the old railyard row for LRT!!!!!! even if just a small portion of it. Would've been an easy extension west and to st albert, south to the airport via high level.
    That would have been great to have the LRT running down that corridor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I cannot help but think that all of this at-grade LRT planning is going to congest so many intersections, and remove so many lanes in key arterial roads, that in 30 years the city will NEED layered freeways in and out of downtown just so cars and buses can bypass these problems that they are creating today with the at-grade LRT.

    In looking at the renders and all it looks like the tracks are running adjacent to each other. I thought they were going to be on the opposite of the street?
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  16. #1616

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    109 at grade? GTFO of here, administration. If that's the best we can do, we don't want it. N/S travel is the major pain point in Edmonton, and this will cripple one of the highest volume arteries.
    That was my first thought as well, but Southbound traffic on 109th backing up at rush hour really has little to do with anything "downtown". It's almost 100% because of the intersection at the South end of the HLB at Garneau, and again at Whyte. So I'm not so sure that the LRT crossing would impact Southbound traffic. And similarly, it's 111th avenue that restricts Northbound traffic (less so 107th, since it has an actual left turn lane). And for E/W again, the bottlenecks are well outside of downtown, and 104th avenue tends to move quite well until 116/124 and then again at 142.

    That being said, grade separation at major intersection if reasonably possible and not crazy expensive is a no-brainer.
    It is too expensive, they will never raise it at that intersection, nor should they. Just take 111 Ave or even 118 Ave instead. I don'y want to spend $300 million just to save some people 10 minutes a day.

    "Knack says why he’s not sure Edmonton should spend $200 million to $300 million on elevating the track at 109 Street and 104 Avenue."

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ed-on-west-lrt

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    We spent $300M on an interchange at 23 Avenue and Calgary Trail/Gateway Blvd mostly due to a big box shopping centre. At least going under or over provides something with the WLRT, which is not only necessary today, but will most definitely be needed as upgrades are made to the entrance/exit ramps at High Level in the future as we continue to grow. This is just a part of planning right for the future. I refuse to pay to build something and then tear it up and replace it with what we should have originally done at twice the cost.

  18. #1618

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    It is too expensive, they will never raise it at that intersection, nor should they. Just take 111 Ave or even 118 Ave instead. I don'y want to spend $300 million just to save some people 10 minutes a day.

    "Knack says why he’s not sure Edmonton should spend $200 million to $300 million on elevating the track at 109 Street and 104 Avenue."
    If saving time is not the goal, why are we building LRT in the first place? It has been demonstrated that the line will only be marginally faster than express bus service that already exists. The bigger question is, if you are going to do it, why not do it right the first time?
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    How do a few support columns and extra concrete cost as much as a new arena minus the Winter Garden?
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  20. #1620

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    The lack of forward thinking by some on our city council and administration just freaking baffles me. I don't get it!

  21. #1621

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    If saving time is not the goal, why are we building LRT in the first place? It has been demonstrated that the line will only be marginally faster than express bus service that already exists. The bigger question is, if you are going to do it, why not do it right the first time?
    Saving time is a secondary or tertiary goal of LRT in Edmonton as per the criteria used to determine the route. Social engineering & kowtowing to developers under the guise of "city building" is the number one priority.
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  22. #1622

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    How do a few support columns and extra concrete cost as much as a new arena minus the Winter Garden?
    Answer: Creative accounting.
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  23. #1623

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    109 at grade? GTFO of here, administration. If that's the best we can do, we don't want it. N/S travel is the major pain point in Edmonton, and this will cripple one of the highest volume arteries.
    That was my first thought as well, but Southbound traffic on 109th backing up at rush hour really has little to do with anything "downtown". It's almost 100% because of the intersection at the South end of the HLB at Garneau, and again at Whyte. So I'm not so sure that the LRT crossing would impact Southbound traffic. And similarly, it's 111th avenue that restricts Northbound traffic (less so 107th, since it has an actual left turn lane). And for E/W again, the bottlenecks are well outside of downtown, and 104th avenue tends to move quite well until 116/124 and then again at 142.

    That being said, grade separation at major intersection if reasonably possible and not crazy expensive is a no-brainer.
    It is too expensive, they will never raise it at that intersection, nor should they. Just take 111 Ave or even 118 Ave instead. I don'y want to spend $300 million just to save some people 10 minutes a day.
    You mean take the 111 Ave where traffic is constantly delayed because the existing LRT signals don't properly work? That's a terrible idea.

    Or take the 118th Ave that has a detour around the old airport lands and ALSO has traffic constantly delayed because of another LRT crossing where the signals don't work? That's an even worse idea.

    Adding a whole bunch of complicated signals and train tracks to one of the busiest intersections in the entire city at 104 Av & 109 St? That is probably the worst idea of them all. That's going to slow down people moving in all 4 directions, including pedestrians.

  24. #1624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    How do a few support columns and extra concrete cost as much as a new arena minus the Winter Garden?
    Answer: Creative accounting.
    I think it is collusion between administration and city council. Administration comes up with a number they want to hear so city council can nix it. Same thing happened at Bonnie Doon.
    Last edited by Glenco; 01-02-2018 at 02:12 PM. Reason: spelling
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  25. #1625

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    I'm thinking that the city is sending out all kinds of disinformation. The elevated line across Argyll Rd drops to grade in about 520 feet. There is almost 700 feet between 107 and 109 streets, so why do we have to start elevating the tracks on 102 Ave? For 1.8 billion, we are building the entire SE line including a lengthy elevated section, bridges across Whitemud Drive and the river, a lengthy tunnel portion and a large maintenance shop, not to mention kilometers of track and multiple stations. So how does it cost 15% of the entire SE portion to elevate a mere 350 meters of track? Bear in mind that the cost of building it at grade through there also costs money.

  26. #1626

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldergrove View Post
    I'm thinking that the city is sending out all kinds of disinformation. The elevated line across Argyll Rd drops to grade in about 520 feet. There is almost 700 feet between 107 and 109 streets, so why do we have to start elevating the tracks on 102 Ave? For 1.8 billion, we are building the entire SE line including a lengthy elevated section, bridges across Whitemud Drive and the river, a lengthy tunnel portion and a large maintenance shop, not to mention kilometers of track and multiple stations. So how does it cost 15% of the entire SE portion to elevate a mere 350 meters of track? Bear in mind that the cost of building it at grade through there also costs money.
    That's actually a really good point. It makes no sense that a small elevated section should cost a third of a billion dollars. But that being said, that's what the city administration has told council, and let's be honest, the route is set, as the RFP is planned to be sent out this year. You can't realistically change it now, regardless of how many emails you send a random councillor.

    People will adapt to avoid that area. Maybe they'll widen 107 Ave and eliminate some of the traffic lights to speed up the route. Although that would probably end up being the same cost. But at least that project isn't tied to the LRT, which is a huge priority for this council right now.

  27. #1627

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    So how much does the elevated section over Argyll road, over the tracks, across a empty field, an elevated station and across 75th street.

    That must cost way more than just a short section over 109th.

    Heck, how did we ever afford to build the multilane 105th street overpass???


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  28. #1628
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    Gee, I dunno, maybe cars are able to deal with much higher grades than trains?

  29. #1629

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    Not talking grades, how about length of overpass?
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  30. #1630
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    Coming NORTH on 109 street from the legislature tunnel to 107 avenue took 15 minutes from 5:15 to 5:30.
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  31. #1631

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Not talking grades, how about length of overpass?
    The shallower the grade, the longer the length to get up to height.

    Valley Line overpass at Argyle

    Last edited by kkozoriz; 01-02-2018 at 09:33 PM.

  32. #1632

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    As if I do not know about train grades. The point is the cost per kilometer of track, be it at grade or elevated. The administration states that above grade cost 3 times as much per kilometer. Why can we build a kilometer long section over Argyll road but cannot do the same at 109th?

    Do you remember the 105th Street Bridge? It was a massive structure.
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  33. #1633

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    I got a form letter lame response from the Mayor's office. Same drivel we've been hearing. I'm half expecting that in a decade or so I'll give up trying to enjoy unique things and just eat McD's and buy everything on Amazon like the masses and never go downtown, because it'll be too painful to get there.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  34. #1634
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    I remember that 105th street over pass, crossing that many times.
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  35. #1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Not talking grades, how about length of overpass?
    The shallower the grade, the longer the length to get up to height.

    Valley Line overpass at Argyle

    The LRT can handle grades of 6%. The maximum recommended grade ofr cars and trucks is 10%, though usually you'll find engineers always aim for something less than that.

    When it comes to building infrastructure, it seems that money is not an object if it is for automobiles. Yet for rail transit, or any other form of transportation, money is always an object.
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  36. #1636

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    The grade on these ramps is nothing like the grade the lrt will be doing near the top of Connors Road. I know that the Capital line has a 6% grade coming out of the tunnel by Health Sciences station. I figure the ramps are only about 3% as that will give you 15 feet rise over 500 feet run, so I absolutely do not buy the need to go east of 107 street to start the ramp to get over 109 st. You need even less room to tunnel as the train doesn't need the kind of clearance that you want for trucks. As far as it being too late to modify the rfp, it is still being modified right now to reflect the changes at 149 st and 178 st. A little more engineering won't delay things appreciably.
    Last edited by Aldergrove; 02-02-2018 at 03:17 PM.

  37. #1637

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldergrove View Post
    A little more engineering won't delay things appreciably.
    Exactly. It's like rearranging your shopping list before payday, since we've not gotten any money to actually build it yet.
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  38. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldergrove View Post
    A little more engineering won't delay things appreciably.
    Exactly. It's like rearranging your shopping list before payday, since we've not gotten any money to actually build it yet.
    Don't hold your breath. I'm amazed they confessed to the required revisions on the West End but I doubt much more will be had out of this.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

  39. #1639

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    I was just speaking to the effect on the timeline. I've no illusions that the CoE is actually going to do the right thing, and if they do it'll be a pleasant surprise. Low expectations & all.
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    I'm surprised nobody seems as concerned as I am regarding the narrowing of the corridor between Brewery District and West Block. You don't need to be an engineer to envision the compounding arterial issues this project presents.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    I sent off an email to my Councillor regarding the 109 Street 104 Avenue intersection. Got a short reply something to the effect of, "thanks for your email, we take all viewpoints into consideration." Really brief...

  42. #1642

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    Businesses may just locate to the burbs if the LRT screws up downtown access for vehicles. People in the outer parts of the city may benefit from that process.

  43. #1643
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    A lot of through traffic to the west end could use 107 ave. There is a very wide ROW there. It could be expanded to more lanes.

  44. #1644

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    the funny part, tram style lrt is a supplement to the main, rapid transit systems in big cities.
    in edmonton, the tram/ streetcar style is being designed to be the main system! how does that make sense?
    why is calgary going underground? ottawa? montreal?
    can any urban 'expert'/ supporter answer that?
    i also echo what i've read here, that downtown is becoming less and less attractive for me to visit. the trains will be too slow for me to get there quickly, the resulting traffic congestion the trains will create will make it frustrating to drive there.
    and the irony here is that i've always been a downtown booster, always. but just because i choose to live suburban, it appears the planners and the urbanites want to vilify me because i, shockingly, drive and want to see over or under through major intersections.

  45. #1645

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    ^^ why does everyone keep bringing up west/ east traffic?
    the issue is north/ south traffic on 109.
    because of macewan/ and river valley, there are few central alternatives to get through north/ south.
    and how will "smart signals" or improvements to the downtown grid system help?

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    Its all a classic case of growing pains as the city continues to grow and develop. The problem as I see it is we have way too much cars downtown. I commute to the job site everyday from Central Station heading West and the amount of cars in the bus lane is nuts. Sure a lot of these are ride sharing vehicles but the other day as I sat on the #5 noticing so many personal vehicles, these are mostly 1 passenger vehicles. Ok its a personal choice of transportation for commuters to get to where they want to go but the main issue imo is that there are too many 1 person passenger vehicles clogging up Jasper. Folks, we have the LRT, a decent bus system, there are alternatives. I'm not sure what my point is in all of this but it seems to me, there's way too many 1 passenger vehicles clogging up the streets in the dt core.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  47. #1647

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Its all a classic case of growing pains as the city continues to grow and develop. The problem as I see it is we have way too much cars downtown. I commute to the job site everyday from Central Station heading West and the amount of cars in the bus lane is nuts. Sure a lot of these are ride sharing vehicles but the other day as I sat on the #5 noticing so many personal vehicles, these are mostly 1 passenger vehicles. Ok its a personal choice of transportation for commuters to get to where they want to go but the main issue imo is that there are too many 1 person passenger vehicles clogging up Jasper. Folks, we have the LRT, a decent bus system, there are alternatives. I'm not sure what my point is in all of this but it seems to me, there's way too many 1 passenger vehicles clogging up the streets in the dt core.
    How do you drop off the kids at school(s) on your way to work?

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    ^ Um, we have these yellow school buses, they've been around for decades. If parents can afford to live downtown they can afford too bus their kids to school. Like I said, way too many 1 passenger vehicles in the dt core. Too much traffic dt
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  49. #1649

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    too many 1 passenger vehicles in the dt core
    From my twice-a-day crossing of 104 Ave during rush-hour, watching people on their phones as they pass, "passenger" is very apt. They're not drivers..
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  50. #1650

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Its all a classic case of growing pains as the city continues to grow and develop. The problem as I see it is we have way too much cars downtown. I commute to the job site everyday from Central Station heading West and the amount of cars in the bus lane is nuts. Sure a lot of these are ride sharing vehicles but the other day as I sat on the #5 noticing so many personal vehicles, these are mostly 1 passenger vehicles. Ok its a personal choice of transportation for commuters to get to where they want to go but the main issue imo is that there are too many 1 person passenger vehicles clogging up Jasper. Folks, we have the LRT, a decent bus system, there are alternatives. I'm not sure what my point is in all of this but it seems to me, there's way too many 1 passenger vehicles clogging up the streets in the dt core.
    How do you drop off the kids at school(s) on your way to work?
    We walked over a mile to school each day and later we took ETS to highschool. I can count on one hand how many times my dad drove me to school. Parents spoil their kids way too much today.
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  51. #1651

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Its all a classic case of growing pains as the city continues to grow and develop. The problem as I see it is we have way too much cars downtown. I commute to the job site everyday from Central Station heading West and the amount of cars in the bus lane is nuts. Sure a lot of these are ride sharing vehicles but the other day as I sat on the #5 noticing so many personal vehicles, these are mostly 1 passenger vehicles. Ok its a personal choice of transportation for commuters to get to where they want to go but the main issue imo is that there are too many 1 person passenger vehicles clogging up Jasper. Folks, we have the LRT, a decent bus system, there are alternatives. I'm not sure what my point is in all of this but it seems to me, there's way too many 1 passenger vehicles clogging up the streets in the dt core.
    How do you drop off the kids at school(s) on your way to work?
    We walked over a mile to school each day and later we took ETS to highschool. I can count on one hand how many times my dad drove me to school. Parents spoil their kids way too much today.
    Same for me. However my mother was at home. With my daughter it was tough with both my wife and I working. I’d start at 7 am every second week and my wife was out of town on business too, so sometimes I was dropping my daughter off at 7am and being late for work (not good). Then there’s early dismissals, volunteering at the school and other complications. Spent a couple years at the neighbourhood elementary and that was easy but I’m no longer working 8-12 hr days.
    Last edited by KC; 03-02-2018 at 04:13 PM.

  52. #1652

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    ^^But... that was back when kids had to go to the neighbourhood school. That restriction was lifted at some time and now kids can go to whatever school their parents want, and that means a lot more kids can't just walk anymore. Add Mom's/Dad's house custody arrangements to that.
    Last edited by Spudly; 03-02-2018 at 04:20 PM.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  53. #1653

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    And I grew up in the west end. Smaller 1920s - ’50s neighbourhoods with I’d say more schools for the area covered, than in newer neighbourhoods today. My elementary, Jr. High and High Schools were all fairly close (I walked, rode my bike, and/or took a short ETS ride through to grade 12. Today I take my daughter across the city to a private school.


    I worked downtown for roughly 24 yrs. Shared a ride for the first 7 years. That multiple passenger situation just created stress and problems for me at the end of a whole lot of days when meetings ran late or I should have been staying late to work but my ride was waiting. After that I always drove myself. In another position I spent 4 years working days that would go as late as 1am and start at 7 am tho next day. Would have been great living downtown but I prefer the suburbs. No way would that have worked with kids and a full time working spouse with us living in the suburbs.

  54. #1654
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    The problem with dt is too many 1 passenger cars on the street. I know, I see it everyday. One good thing about the EJA project it will hopefully take less cars off the streets by reducing the lanes and isn't that part of what the LRT is supposed to aim for by reducing traffic? And that should impact the need to eliminate a under/overpass at key intersections along the WLRT route.
    Last edited by envaneo; 03-02-2018 at 11:24 PM.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  55. #1655

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    no, the point of LRT shouldn't be to disrupted as much as possible.

    A good transportation system has all modals of transportation looked at, and not pitting one against each other in some sort of war. Secondly, a good transit system is fast, efficient, and reliable. Street level crossings at major intersections that causes trains to wait for lights, be subjected to delays caused by traffic ties, or accidents right on the rail line removes all three.

    If you want people to choose transit, make transit a viable option. If you want to keep the same percentage of transit users we currently have (basically those that can't afford to drive, and a select few others), then continue to build what is designed.

    I'm hopeful for a transit system that's attractive to more people, so it gets more use. If LRT is no faster than a bus, what's the point? Let's just improve the bus network, for much cheaper, and in the end will serve a lot more people.

  56. #1656
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    Your almost in line with my last comment.

    Edmonton is already developing a complete transportation system. We have bike lanes to get people to dt, and with the EJA project (whenever that gets built) will reduce traffic down Jasper to make busses and people move freely on the avenue. No pitting one against the other. Transit is already a viable option for people who can't afford to drive. The city (although it took them long enough) finally has offered low income bus passes at $35/month. My wife gets one every month using our Clareview rec centre pass. I think at one time Booster Bill Smith was an advocate of this back in the 1990's.

    At the moment it takes me an hour to get anywhere here in the city from A-B, if I need to travel a substantial distance. I think the WLRT is the right way to go, the way it is in the preliminary design. I'd opine that the initial portion has too many stops but yes your right if the LRT is abt as fast a bus, what's the point?
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    I'm willing to bet that anybody with the "I hate downtown" attitude never takes LRT.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  58. #1658
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    I'd suspect they would love their cars more then hate downtown. And that's for good reason what with all the traffic congestion. Its not that any of them i think hate Edmonton, they just hate driving dt. I know lots of people still feuding over the North Side South Side old debate
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  59. #1659
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

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    ^and for once I agree with almost everything he has to say.

  61. #1661

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    Yes, Gunter hit a home run on this one..
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    It's all about West Edmonton Mall isn't it? With all these people moving into condos and apts downtown they'll need a connect to the Mall where 25,000 people work and 150 to 400 thousand shop each day.

  63. #1663

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    You mean such the retail trade away from downtown with a train to the suburbs?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  64. #1664

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    Running lines past already well serviced malls seems to be an unwritten rule. Not sure why.

    There’s a lot of jobs in the industrial areas but I don’t think these areas are targeted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Yes, Gunter hit a home run on this one..
    This is gold:

    But the Quarters is empty. The developers of Strathearn Heights claim they need at least $13 million from the city to proceed with streetscaping. And in November, council sent Holyrood Gardens back to administration for reconsideration because its towers are too high for a residential neighbourhood.
    Hopefully council reads this.

  66. #1666

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    To be clear, Gunter knows FA about anything - especially urban development - so his opinion means nothing more than any of ours. He just happens to have a loudspeaker. (on the topic of politics, which is supposedly his forte, he famously predicted two weeks before the 2015 election that the NDP had no chance).
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

  67. #1667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    You mean such the retail trade away from downtown with a train to the suburbs?
    Downtown has retail? Oh you mean CCM. Hahaha. That's a funny one. Shopping in Edmonton is West Edmonton Mall. SEC, Southgate, Currents, Kingsway, Londonderry. 137 ave n.w. , Albany-Newcastle,Manning and n.e. area and a few places in between but I would not consider downtown as a retail destination. I'm not much of a shopper but my wife is and she drags me out to all those places. If you think the people buying condos downtown shop downtown, no. I love downtown myself but like I said, I'm not a shopper. I mean a real shopper.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 07-02-2018 at 01:09 PM.

  68. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    To be clear, Gunter knows FA about anything - especially urban development - so his opinion means nothing more than any of ours. He just happens to have a loudspeaker. (on the topic of politics, which is supposedly his forte, he famously predicted two weeks before the 2015 election that the NDP had no chance).
    Given the lack of good urban development in Edmonton relative to other places in the world, one could argue that no one knows anything about urban development in Edmonton, including city staff!

    The continued frustration at LRT expansion and the ball being dropped here, is just one indicator.

    Unfortunately, his opinion carries more weight than ours, because he has the loudspeaker. Whether you or anyone else agree with his said opinion is another matter entirely.

  69. #1669

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    His opinion would only matter more than ours if political decision makers still listened to him, or read his articles. I highly doubt that they do.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

  70. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    To be clear, Gunter knows FA about anything - especially urban development - so his opinion means nothing more than any of ours. He just happens to have a loudspeaker. (on the topic of politics, which is supposedly his forte, he famously predicted two weeks before the 2015 election that the NDP had no chance).
    Turns out you are right he is just a mouth piece. http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...nnie-doon-mall
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  71. #1671

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    Bringing business or forcing it to close? Running LRT down the main road to downtown from Jasper Place is the wrong way to do it. Westmount-107 ave-Jasper Place - Meadowlark. Then run a circulator bust along SPR & 100 ave.
    Potential Valley Line LRT underpass could shut down 20 businesses, community leader says

    Constructing the underpass would require the expropriation of 20 businesses and one apartment building in the area, according to West Jasper/Sherwood Community League president Irene Blain.


    The businesses include a TD Bank, London Drugs, Starbucks and local eatery Il Forno Ristorante.


    "We could have up to 150 employees lose their job," Blain said.


    "These businesses were the main staple for the residents in the surrounding area."


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...pass-1.4532765

  72. #1672
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    ^ As you know, I'd rather have the route cross the river from the University area and come up through 87th Ave somehow.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  73. #1673
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    I did not realize the extent of the necessary expropriation. That would shut down my dad's business, too!
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  74. #1674
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    That's only 1 option. Seems a bit far reaching.

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    Why does it feel like the city is requiring unnecessarily large right of ways for our LRTs? Our right of ways are already massive, we shouldn't be needing to demolish this much just to fit LRT in. I feel like the city needs to look more in depth at the way other cities construct theirs. We should be investing in transit, but not at the expense of destroying what little urbanity we currently have. Gunter was right in that we already have enough TOD areas, we shouldn't be demolishing sites and then excusing it with "But something new will be built there". Edmontons history has shown us that if that happens, it will be in the distant future.

  76. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    I did not realize the extent of the necessary expropriation. That would shut down my dad's business, too!
    That really sucks. I hope your family will be well compensated,and they call this progress.

    Just like the wading pool at City hall. Councilor Nickle was right, so much for public consultation. The City will do what it wants regardless.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  77. #1677

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Bringing business or forcing it to close? Running LRT down the main road to downtown from Jasper Place is the wrong way to do it. Westmount-107 ave-Jasper Place - Meadowlark. Then run a circulator bust along SPR & 100 ave.
    Potential Valley Line LRT underpass could shut down 20 businesses, community leader says

    Constructing the underpass would require the expropriation of 20 businesses and one apartment building in the area, according to West Jasper/Sherwood Community League president Irene Blain.


    The businesses include a TD Bank, London Drugs, Starbucks and local eatery Il Forno Ristorante.


    "We could have up to 150 employees lose their job," Blain said.


    "These businesses were the main staple for the residents in the surrounding area."


    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...pass-1.4532765
    The entire London Drugs retail block could have been bought or expropriated by the city before the Safeway, London Drugs etc was built and the City could have run a diagonal connector road right through the site then sold off the split site for the retail development.*

    (Same opportunity loss downtown on the west side of 109th between Jasper and 104th where diagonal connector roads could have made. Huge difference to downtown traffic flows. )


    * In fact, a road was originally planned for a road down into the ravine, so some of that block was originally destined to be taken over by the city.

    An LRT could run that same old partially built McKinnon Ravine route to the downtown providing more access to the river valley.
    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018 at 06:50 AM.

  78. #1678

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GizmoForMayor View Post
    To be clear, Gunter knows FA about anything - especially urban development - so his opinion means nothing more than any of ours. He just happens to have a loudspeaker. (on the topic of politics, which is supposedly his forte, he famously predicted two weeks before the 2015 election that the NDP had no chance).
    Turns out you are right he is just a mouth piece. http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...nnie-doon-mall

    Yes, an LRT station makes all the difference.
    (I’d post some of the fantastic pictures, but today’s world of knowledge via internet links means that much history vanishes from the historical record.)


    Edmonton - Current Projects, Proposed Projects, Rumours, etc

    July 11, 2006

    ...

    Under Construction


    Century Park - partial under construction - full build out over many years
    Developer: Westbank and Procura
    Architect: James KM Cheng
    Location: Former Hertiage Mall Site, East side of 111th Street, North of 23rd Avenue
    Number of floors:
    proposed Century Park - Tower 1 - 20 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 2 - 18 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 3 - 18 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 4 - 20 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 5 - 24 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 6 - 24 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 7 - 24 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 8 - 24 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 9 - 12 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 10 - 20 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 11 - 16 Floors
    proposed Century Park - Tower 12 - 12 Floors
    URL: http://www.centurypark.ca/. “

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ts-Rumours-etc
    Last edited by KC; 14-02-2018 at 07:02 AM.

  79. #1679

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    stupid underground LRT.... London, New york, Paris, and many other vary walkable cities have extensive underground railways... I wonder how an at grade LRT along Jasper avenue would look? Our current train set would not work, we would be limited to 2 car-length LRTs due to block size. This would mean trains every 60 seconds to meet the same rush as the underground 5 car consists have. You want massive congestion with level crossings? Thats how you would get it.
    Manchester and Birmingham are probably better comparisons.
    https://youtu.be/0BGgF7UoLFg
    https://youtu.be/DgahhBEAMWM

    Both those trains look painfully slow. Enjoy your hour long commute...

  80. #1680

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    stupid underground LRT.... London, New york, Paris, and many other vary walkable cities have extensive underground railways... I wonder how an at grade LRT along Jasper avenue would look? Our current train set would not work, we would be limited to 2 car-length LRTs due to block size. This would mean trains every 60 seconds to meet the same rush as the underground 5 car consists have. You want massive congestion with level crossings? Thats how you would get it.
    Manchester and Birmingham are probably better comparisons.
    https://youtu.be/0BGgF7UoLFg
    https://youtu.be/DgahhBEAMWM

    Both those trains look painfully slow. Enjoy your hour long commute...
    Please do not drive any type of trains as it's clear you dont understand anything about curves or approaching stations /switches both of what is shown in the videos.
    Last edited by Dark Magnus; 15-02-2018 at 06:01 PM.

  81. #1681
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    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  82. #1682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    stupid underground LRT.... London, New york, Paris, and many other vary walkable cities have extensive underground railways... I wonder how an at grade LRT along Jasper avenue would look? Our current train set would not work, we would be limited to 2 car-length LRTs due to block size. This would mean trains every 60 seconds to meet the same rush as the underground 5 car consists have. You want massive congestion with level crossings? Thats how you would get it.
    Manchester and Birmingham are probably better comparisons.
    https://youtu.be/0BGgF7UoLFg
    https://youtu.be/DgahhBEAMWM

    Both those trains look painfully slow. Enjoy your hour long commute...
    Please do not drive any type of trains as it's clear you dont understand anything about curves or approaching stations /switches both of what is shown in the videos.
    Please do not post on this forum as it's clear you don't understand anything about people having a debate or discussion on alternative solutions to things the city proposes.

  83. #1683
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    I did not realize the extent of the necessary expropriation. That would shut down my dad's business, too!
    That really sucks. I hope your family will be well compensated,and they call this progress.

    Just like the wading pool at City hall. Councilor Nickle was right, so much for public consultation. The City will do what it wants regardless.
    Thanks. Honestly, he's really in the twilight of his working career and will be hanging up his spurs soon, anyway. He had actually recently sold his business (although he's still working there) to new ownership, so they'll be the ones who will be compensated if expropriation occurs.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

  84. #1684

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    stupid underground LRT.... London, New york, Paris, and many other vary walkable cities have extensive underground railways... I wonder how an at grade LRT along Jasper avenue would look? Our current train set would not work, we would be limited to 2 car-length LRTs due to block size. This would mean trains every 60 seconds to meet the same rush as the underground 5 car consists have. You want massive congestion with level crossings? Thats how you would get it.
    Manchester and Birmingham are probably better comparisons.
    https://youtu.be/0BGgF7UoLFg
    https://youtu.be/DgahhBEAMWM

    Both those trains look painfully slow. Enjoy your hour long commute...
    Please do not drive any type of trains as it's clear you dont understand anything about curves or approaching stations /switches both of what is shown in the videos.
    Please do not post on this forum as it's clear you don't understand anything about people having a debate or discussion on alternative solutions to things the city proposes.
    Not sure how the frack some guy saying they driving painfuly slow is a debate / altarnative solution at all med's but w/e keep on being you....

  85. #1685
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    I did not realize the extent of the necessary expropriation. That would shut down my dad's business, too!
    That really sucks. I hope your family will be well compensated,and they call this progress.

    Just like the wading pool at City hall. Councilor Nickle was right, so much for public consultation. The City will do what it wants regardless.
    Thanks. Honestly, he's really in the twilight of his working career and will be hanging up his spurs soon, anyway. He had actually recently sold his business (although he's still working there) to new ownership, so they'll be the ones who will be compensated if expropriation occurs.
    That's good for him then. Not so for other business owners. Lets face it there are going to be winners and losers in the WLRT. My emotions on this line change like the weather tbh.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  86. #1686

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    stupid underground LRT.... London, New york, Paris, and many other vary walkable cities have extensive underground railways... I wonder how an at grade LRT along Jasper avenue would look? Our current train set would not work, we would be limited to 2 car-length LRTs due to block size. This would mean trains every 60 seconds to meet the same rush as the underground 5 car consists have. You want massive congestion with level crossings? Thats how you would get it.
    Manchester and Birmingham are probably better comparisons.
    https://youtu.be/0BGgF7UoLFg
    https://youtu.be/DgahhBEAMWM

    Both those trains look painfully slow. Enjoy your hour long commute...
    Please do not drive any type of trains as it's clear you dont understand anything about curves or approaching stations /switches both of what is shown in the videos.
    Please do not post on this forum as it's clear you don't understand anything about people having a debate or discussion on alternative solutions to things the city proposes.
    Not sure how the frack some guy saying they driving painfuly slow is a debate / altarnative solution at all med's but w/e keep on being you....
    He's saying the the youtube examples are slow moving trains, and if a similiar apporach here is taken, we will have hour long commutes via the train. He's probably in favour of making changes to the planned route. I don't think he intends on "driving" trains. I'm not even sure what the point of your post "do not drive any type of trains"... as if that was anyones intention here.

  87. #1687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron_Lloyd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    stupid underground LRT.... London, New york, Paris, and many other vary walkable cities have extensive underground railways... I wonder how an at grade LRT along Jasper avenue would look? Our current train set would not work, we would be limited to 2 car-length LRTs due to block size. This would mean trains every 60 seconds to meet the same rush as the underground 5 car consists have. You want massive congestion with level crossings? Thats how you would get it.
    Manchester and Birmingham are probably better comparisons.
    https://youtu.be/0BGgF7UoLFg
    https://youtu.be/DgahhBEAMWM

    Both those trains look painfully slow. Enjoy your hour long commute...
    Please do not drive any type of trains as it's clear you dont understand anything about curves or approaching stations /switches both of what is shown in the videos.
    Please do not post on this forum as it's clear you don't understand anything about people having a debate or discussion on alternative solutions to things the city proposes.
    Not sure how the frack some guy saying they driving painfuly slow is a debate / altarnative solution at all med's but w/e keep on being you....
    He's saying the the youtube examples are slow moving trains, and if a similiar apporach here is taken, we will have hour long commutes via the train. He's probably in favour of making changes to the planned route. I don't think he intends on "driving" trains. I'm not even sure what the point of your post "do not drive any type of trains"... as if that was anyones intention here.
    They were only moving slow because they were coming near stations, going around bends or even swtiching tracks it doesnt show the WHOLE system as being slow. I mean if you or him wanna go and take a train or even a car around tight bend at full speed let me know how that works out for you

  88. #1688

    Default

    ^I was just pointing out that those YouTube videos hopefully aren't comparable to the trains we'd have here in Edmonton. I think a train like the one in that video moving that slow would have less commuter appeal than even the Bus.

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