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Thread: Metro Line - North LRT | Churchill to NAIT | Under Construction

  1. #8801
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    It sounds like the same sort of hubris that was involved when taking the Blatchford bids. There is so much effort on producing something cutting (bleeding) edge that when the complications hit no one knows what happened and we don't even get what we need. (There's a cartoon featuring a tree swing that used to be on everyone's bulletin board in my day.)

    As to the train, I want a system that gets me to school and/or work and home. The people who plan, however, seem to want bragging rights against their peers in other jurisdictions.

    I'm wondering if they are going to continue to close the system partially or totally on weekends for "testing".

  2. #8802

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    Doing automated signalling can be complicated, especially ensuring safety for everyone, and for intersections with 5 streets for example. Just seems hard to believe Thales failed so badly to not get it right after 3 or 4 years. Will be an interesting lawsuit.
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  3. #8803

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    I agree Marcel. There were a number of people with serious concerns as early as 2010 that had involvement in the transportation and transit departments. The old system and what was planned was not compatible and the budget & project scope did not include fixing the whole system properly. Basically an expensive patch job. Once they began work on the old system, the real problems were discovered that entirely changed how the two system could be integrated.

    Thales should have walked and not bid.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 09-04-2019 at 03:03 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  4. #8804

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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012, before the bills came due...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  5. #8805
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    I'll defend the city on this one. Whatever pie in the sky, unreasonable request CoE put out, Thales said they could do it and took our money. And then failed to deliver. If anything, the city was too hesitant to terminate. Over five years is too long for this to have gone on and from all appearances Thales was given many opportunities to make this right. They did not.

  6. #8806

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    I think this one line from the article is fairly telling:

    Back in 2011, when Edmonton officials put the signalling project to tender, five companies bid and only Thales said what the city was asking for could be achieved.
    Granted, Thales submitted a tender and took the work. But when most respondents are like "ugh, what the hell are you asking for? This doesn't even make sense!", you might want to stop and re-evaluate what you're asking for.
    To be honest, I don't know what to make of this. The other vendors believed it was impossible and put in bids anyway? Or did they realise a bespoke system was required and priced accordingly?

  7. #8807
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    Sounds like they submitted tenders with a bunch of exclusions or qualifications, and on public work tenders, that generally results in your price being tossed in the garbage.

  8. #8808
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    The primary dispute now seems to be that Thales says they delivered and the COE won't accept it and terminated their Contract.

    As an outside perspective the system seems to be performing now. It certainly has carried a huge amount of passengers, I believe the only piece unproven is the headways with intertwining on the capital line.

    Thales has probably lost a significant sum of money on this project and is likely never to be made whole, it would be hard to imagine they stuck with it for five years to get booted off. They are one if not the largest signal engineers in the world.

  9. #8809

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypostome View Post
    I'll defend the city on this one. Whatever pie in the sky, unreasonable request CoE put out, Thales said they could do it and took our money. And then failed to deliver. If anything, the city was too hesitant to terminate. Over five years is too long for this to have gone on and from all appearances Thales was given many opportunities to make this right. They did not.
    Don't know. Maybe the COE did not disclose all the issues or even more likely that the higher ups did not even know what the problems were. From what I had heard at the time on the Capital line between Central and Belvedere that there were tons of patches to the signalling system discovered.
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  10. #8810

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    And this
    "We are not the first city to experience significant reliability issues with Thales," Iveson said. "Their shortcomings are well documented, from New York to Singapore to Hong Kong.


    "The City of Edmonton has given Thales ample time, five years in fact, and plenty of resources to complete their work but enough is enough and it's time to find a resolution on the Metro Line without Thales.


    "We will now move forward with a different signalling system that will deliver the LRT we all expect and deserve. And this isn't about picking a scapegoat, it's about accountability."

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ling-1.5090426
    Thales was a well known provider of signalling systems world wide. It appears to me that they bought into their hype, believing they could make the system work without really understanding what they were taking on.

  11. #8811

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Sounds like they submitted tenders with a bunch of exclusions or qualifications, and on public work tenders, that generally results in your price being tossed in the garbage.
    The cynic in me would call that a frivolous bid. Either way, they probably dodged a bullet... Unless one of them is 'Plan B'.

  12. #8812

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    No matter who is at fault, the taxpayer takes the bullet in the wallet.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  13. #8813

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    Iverson's speech included that thalus has well documented major issues in multiple countries all over the world...... yet he and the rest of our city council awarded the contract to them.

  14. #8814
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    Thales just couldn't fix it at all since the beginning, they are the ones who screwed up, so I don't blame them for getting terminated by the city.
    Edmonton Rocks Rocks Rocks

  15. #8815

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Iverson's speech included that thalus has well documented major issues in multiple countries all over the world...... yet he and the rest of our city council awarded the contract to them.
    Not every company will be able to do every job 100%. Stuff happens. But, when you sign a contract that says you can do it, you should expect to pay the price if you don't come through.

  16. #8816
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    My dream is to Build a new line, underground, use the same hardware as the capital line. Then turn this right of way into a bicycle and pedestrian pathway.

  17. #8817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foolworm View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Sounds like they submitted tenders with a bunch of exclusions or qualifications, and on public work tenders, that generally results in your price being tossed in the garbage.
    The cynic in me would call that a frivolous bid. Either way, they probably dodged a bullet... Unless one of them is 'Plan B'.
    Well, you never know with the City of Edmonton! Pacer-Acciona JV submitted a non-compliant bid on the Walterdale bridge and ended up being awarded it. Quickly followed by months of delays, hiring additional consultants to review the steel work in South Korea, and so on only to be topped off with the lovely rivet plates that were not part of the original design.

  18. #8818

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    No kidding. Of course the COE would never accept replacing an old riveted bridge with a new riveted bridge . NEVER IN 100 years
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  19. #8819

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    Iverson's speech included that thalus has well documented major issues in multiple countries all over the world...... yet he and the rest of our city council awarded the contract to them.
    wow! 20-20 hindsight!
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  20. #8820

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    That's Edmonton "vision" for ya!
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  21. #8821

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    Yeah.... But in the end nobody complains about the rivet plates, everyone raves about the iconic addition to the skyline.

    The City makes a point of emphasising the line opened on time and on budget, but it doesn't give me much comfort after the third light cycle.

  22. #8822

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    Right, nobody said anything about the rivet plates. It was like they were not even there.

    Wanna buy some Arizona beachfront property?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  23. #8823

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    Sure, if you front me 50k.

    Cash only please, though.
    Last edited by Foolworm; 09-04-2019 at 08:30 PM.

  24. #8824

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    Its amusing to see people not blame the city. They hired the company who failed. Our city is a massive corporation who's major need includes hiring the right company for the job.

    Imagine doing a house reno... the guy shows and cant finish the job. Are you going to blame the guy you hired or realize you made a mistake??? Now magnify this 100000 times and that's what our city has done.

    On top of that they take 5 years to fire the company while putting people at risk... and this seems perfectly reasonable for people? I suppose if the city hasnt failed on every major project in the last 5 years you could say no big deal but our city council and the administration are clearly oblivious.

  25. #8825
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    Wow...

    City ends contract with Thales, escorts workers from LRT job site

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...m-lrt-job-site
    I can only imagine what actually happened.

    I have no faith that the COE really knows what they are doing and somehow Thales doesn't.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  26. #8826
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    The City of Edmonton doesn’t learn.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  27. #8827

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    The City of Edmonton doesnít learn.
    more importantly voters continue to vote most of the same city council back. Theres no accountability for our city council or administration.

  28. #8828

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    Even if you flip the entire City Council and the Mayor, the entrenched administration is intransigent and self interested. There is no interest in improving or performing, only growing and protecting the bureaucracy. The administration is renowned for misleading, misinforming and withholding critical information from City Council which obfuscates their ability to foresee problems and make good decisions.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  29. #8829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Even if you flip the entire City Council and the Mayor, the entrenched administration is intransigent and self interested. There is no interest in improving or performing, only growing and protecting the bureaucracy. The administration is renowned for misleading, misinforming and withholding critical information from City Council which obfuscates their ability to foresee problems and make good decisions.
    Is it not a condition of employment for the administration to supply city council with all necessary information to make decisions ? If administration (unionized or otherwise), this can be a case for dismissal. Why are these people not fired for incompetence ?

  30. #8830

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    City Council cannot fire employees. They can complain to the general manager who can then fire staff. They can fire the general manager and did so a few years back.

    In my discussions with both the Mayor and Council members, they often know that the city administration staff and managers are lying to them, withholding information or supplying incomplete or biased information. I have seen public Council meetings where they tore strips off managers and have more documented proof supplied by the public or Council''s own staff than the claims and statements made by the administration.

    Often the Council is given a project to decide upon with a certain cost and they approve it. The administration only gave part of the costs because if the Council knew the whole story and costs, they would kill the administration'spet project. So once Council is committed and the project started past the point of no return, the administration let's the other shoe drop and Council is forced to expand the project and the budget again and again.

    But no matter, even if Council had half the administration fired, their replacements would be hired by the administration that fit their bureaucratic agenda and often be less experienced than the previous bunch.

    Wack-a-mole
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 10-04-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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  31. #8831
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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    Wow...

    City ends contract with Thales, escorts workers from LRT job site

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...m-lrt-job-site

    And the visions of truckloads of taxpayer's money prompted litigation lawyers to drink and party until dawn.

  32. #8832
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    Any way you look at it itís going to be over a billion dollars to replace a few buses to nait, when will the bleeding stop though. ( and in the end it will still be a giant screw up)
    Last edited by Drumbones; 11-04-2019 at 04:48 PM.

  33. #8833
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    I know some of you disagree with this. But the entire LRT system should be upgraded to an automated system.

    Itís something that will need to be done later anyways and will be significantly more expensive.

  34. #8834

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Any way you look at it it’s going to be over a billion dollars to replace a few buses to nait, when will the bleeding stop though. ( and in the end it will still be a giant screw up)
    Glad to see that you understand that the whole plan was a farce to begin with.

    Maybe people will wake up and smell the coffee and realize that the goal is not better transit but pork barrel corporate welfare by such companies like SNC Lavalin.

    Just where have we heard about this company SNC Lavalin lately in the news????
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 12-04-2019 at 07:52 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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