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Thread: Metro Line - North LRT | Churchill to NAIT | Under Construction

  1. #8601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry N View Post
    Thales Canada had three major challenges on the Metro LRT Line but only two were technical, a senior official said Friday during one of the first times the company has talked publicly about its contract in Edmonton.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/thales-official-breaks-silence-to-say-not-all-metro-line-lrt-delay-is-on-them
    How can any system orientated maintenance shop allow anything like this to happen?


    “Plus, each train has been fixed and modified so many times over the years, not one is identical. They needed “a unique wiring diagram for every single train.”




    This should also raise major concerns about the procurement system and basic build of the units. Over their long lives the designers should assume that nearly every part will require repair or replacement so the idea that every fix had to solve a problem in any kind of unique way, may mean that they were all workarounds to deal with cars that were never designed for ongoing maintenance beyond routine scheduled maintenance.




    .
    Last edited by KC; 12-05-2018 at 01:04 PM.

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    How many of us have cars more than 20 years old? Perhaps the city could retrofit the High Level and Fort Edmonton streetcars with CBTC technology.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    After reading that Journal story I almost have some sympathy for Mr Thales. So all of the old cars have non standard wiring? And the city added all that extra work?
    They still, today, have an unregulated power supply, which means the on-board computer can’t get the consistent 115 volts you’d get from plugging into a normal power outlet today.

    “The voltage can vary quite widely,” he said. It was so bad, when they first hooked five 40-year-old trains together, the voltage swung so low that the brakes came on.“

    Time to hit the gong!

  4. #8604

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    So you can't get a $500 APC UPS to regulate the voltage?
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  5. #8605

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    So you can't get a $500 APC UPS to regulate the voltage?
    Hahahaha!!!

    Maybe a $15,000 APC (same unit though). The bidding process isn’t cheap.

    Then there’s the electrical engineering studies that would have to be done first.


    Then in keeping with tradition, each car would be done as needed over years to ensure each one is uniquely equipped.
    Last edited by KC; 12-05-2018 at 09:57 PM.

  6. #8606

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    You have to wonder how safe it is to have VOBCs installed without providing a constant voltage for them. It's a wonder they haven't had one of the suckers get fried yet.

  7. #8607
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    From the Journal article above:
    Edmonton’s Metro LRT line posed two major technical challenges to signals engineers — it has 13 at-grade crossings within three kilometres and required retrofitting 40-year-old trains with new technology. These challenges were underestimated.

    Going in, Thales had never applied its radio-signal based system to at-grade crossings. According to documents previously obtained by Postmedia, Edmonton officials identified that in their evaluation comments before awarding the bid.
    So City officials were aware of these challenges but awarded the contract anyway. We may be building an inferior street level system but at least it will have state of the art signalling must have been the mindset.

  8. #8608

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    Thales are the supposed experts in signalling and they said they could do it. It's not like they're "Bob's Rail Signalling Service" fro New Sarepta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cumberland View Post
    You have to wonder how safe it is to have VOBCs installed without providing a constant voltage for them. It's a wonder they haven't had one of the suckers get fried yet.
    Suddenly I have a mental image of the exploding buses in Rome, Italy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-investigation

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    And think the Skytrain does it with PC or XT technology that still used floppy drives.
    https://www.theloop.ca/vancouvers-sk...-floppy-disks/

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    I wonder if Porky Pig will do the announcements for the NAIT line.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  12. #8612

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    Nope. Sally the Snail
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  13. #8613

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    Slowpoke Rodriguez

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I wonder if Porky Pig will do the announcements for the NAIT line.

    I was thinking along the lines of Gilbert Gottfried would be great.
    Go ahead, speed pass me... I'll meet you at the next red light.

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    Hugh Jackman after all Wolverine is Canadian

  16. #8616

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    Bob & Doug McKenzie, At least they have an Edmonton connection

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    Definitely down with Tommy Chong being contracted to by the LRT voice.

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    I wonder if Rapid-Fire Theatre might be interested in doing some of voices.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    Definitely down with Tommy Chong being contracted to by the LRT voice.
    Hey man, the train is stopping here, if you want to get off, try some of my weed man.

  20. #8620

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    Dave's not here man...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  21. #8621
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    Don't answer the phone...
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    And don't drive near the Kingsway station.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    OK enough already.

    Global Edmonton‏ @GlobalEdmonton
    Another issue with the Metro Line LRT popped up last night: the train crossing arms came down while the traffic light was green.

    Story:
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4232470/e...n-green-light/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    And don't drive near the Kingsway station.
    Next stop: Hippie Land. I mean MacEwan Station.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    OK enough already.

    Global Edmonton‏ @GlobalEdmonton
    Another issue with the Metro Line LRT popped up last night: the train crossing arms came down while the traffic light was green.

    Story:
    https://globalnews.ca/news/4232470/e...n-green-light/
    It's going to take a grade crossing smash up to get this fixed....
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  28. #8628

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    Why not give Uber a try? LOL
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    It’s making me think of Boston’s Big Dig

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It’s making me think of Boston’s Big Dig
    That reminds me of the time I got drunk with some guys from Boston in a hotel bar in Seattle while the dig was going on. I recall that they said between the mob and the unions - Teamsters? Apparently this doubled the original price tag. Don't think the Ukrainian mafia had anything to do the Metro did they? lol

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    ^well, that was unnecessarily offensive.

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    What part?

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    So your parents are Teamster's or Ukrainian mafia? Which one?

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    ^ in general, and a quick look at your other posts to confirm, you. don't bother replying, you're going on my iggy list so I won't see it anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It’s making me think of Boston’s Big Dig
    While it was late, overbudget, lots of leaks and had some falling concrete slabs that caused a fatality Boston has benefited though

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    I would expect so with a $25B final price tag, all in. That’s billions. The original estimate in planning was 2.8B. I know it’s not comparable but it just gave me thoughts of it.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 12-07-2018 at 05:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    So your parents are Teamster's or Ukrainian mafia? Which one?
    Be careful, a lot of humourless “Mr. Perfects” in C2E.

  38. #8638

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    Don't speak for all Ukrainians. I'm a Ukie and I didn't find that post offensive at all. I found it quite funny actually...Ukrainian mafia!

  39. #8639
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    I wasn’t speaking for Ukrainians, I have plenty in the family and they appreciate fun. I was speaking of those C2E police types. You know, the oh so perfect and political correct ones. There are plenty in here.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 12-07-2018 at 02:03 PM.

  40. #8640

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    I suspect this whole debacle is a 50/50 combination of incompetence from the city and Thales, which is why it seems to drag on forever and seems so difficult to resolve. They keep on trying to blame and threaten each other. It reminds me of two guys in a leaky boat in the middle of the lake fighting instead of trying to fix it, except in this case the bigger problem is neither really has a clue how to fix things. Its worse because with the current city council, it seems the bureaucrats are never wrong and seldom held accountable.

  41. #8641

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    Why can't they replace the hard wired signalling system with something more modern like wireless? Wireless has only been around for 100 years.
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  42. #8642

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    or maybe build it correctly from the start and not run through busy intersections causing a headache for everyone.

  43. #8643

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I wasn’t speaking for Ukrainians, I have plenty in the family and they appreciate fun. I was speaking of those C2E police types. You know, the oh so perfect and political correct ones. There are plenty in here.
    Didn't mean you. That comment was meant for buildings. I got a good laugh out of the Ukrainian mafia comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    So your parents are Teamster's or Ukrainian mafia? Which one?
    Be careful, a lot of humorless “Mr. Perfects” in C2E.
    So indeed correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmontonsKindaGuy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I wasn’t speaking for Ukrainians, I have plenty in the family and they appreciate fun. I was speaking of those C2E police types. You know, the oh so perfect and political correct ones. There are plenty in here.
    Didn't mean you. That comment was meant for buildings. I got a good laugh out of the Ukrainian mafia comment.
    Aha. Got it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Why can't they replace the hard wired signalling system with something more modern like wireless? Wireless has only been around for 100 years.
    The method of communication isn't the problem. It's not that they're having shorts and faults on the wiring. They're having problems with the controls logic and sequencing; the software side basically. Whether it's wired or wireless is irrelevant.

  47. #8647

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    Just making a point.

    I understand that but I can see exactly where my uber driver is, how close and when he will arrive on my phone. Trains are a lot simpler that navigating streets.
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  48. #8648
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    Maybe hackers could crash trains easier with wireless.

  49. #8649

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    Thales were hackers....
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    Hacks for sure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Why can't they replace the hard wired signalling system with something more modern like wireless? Wireless has only been around for 100 years.
    The method of communication isn't the problem. It's not that they're having shorts and faults on the wiring. They're having problems with the controls logic and sequencing; the software side basically. Whether it's wired or wireless is irrelevant.
    I believe I read that the gauge of wiring used was incorrect which can create com issues. I would explain where there’s so much uprooting of wiring alongside the Kingsway parkade.

    Software issues can stem from improperly engineered wiring infrastructure as well.

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    Elise Stolte‏ @estolte
    Guess what's in the agendas this week? A deadline!! Thales says the Metro Line will be open on December 4, 2018. If not, city officials say they can run the line without them.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    From the company that said, oh 18 months ago ... there was no reason not to run the line at full speed and full capacity.
    ... gobsmacked

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    A large cable-stayed bridge across Yellowhead Trail would reshape Edmonton’s northern skyline based on concept designs released Thursday by city officials.

    A rendering of the proposed LRT bridge over the Yellowhead Trail and CN Rail yards to be shown to the public Sept. 13, 2018.


    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...trail-unveiled

    wow. that is a massive bridge and project.

  55. #8655

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    Grade seperation at key intersections? Urban friendly high floor stations? What kinda wizardry is this? I was told this all too expensive and impossible.

  56. #8656

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    ^^^That would definitely be something to see if they decided to build a bridge like that. It does seem a bit grand for a bridge in that area, but I guess that would be necessary to go over the train yards without actually touching the train yards?
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    The bridge seems very large for the purpose intended. Can a conventional supported structure not be put in place here?
    Make the RIGHT choice before you take your last breath......

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    I believe the problem is that the railway companies forbid anything that will interrupt their own services. That makes it nearly impossible to have conventional construction sites in the middle of the rail yard to construct conventional supports. It's like building over a waterway without interrupting the flow of the river.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EveB View Post
    I believe the problem is that the railway companies forbid anything that will interrupt their own services. That makes it nearly impossible to have conventional construction sites in the middle of the rail yard to construct conventional supports. It's like building over a waterway without interrupting the flow of the river.
    Makes good sense when explained in this manner. Thanks.
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  61. #8661

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    Railways have Federal juristiction and the COE is powerless to force the railways to be expropriated or do anything unless the railways want cash or need something from the city.

    The Fort Road TOD was stymied by the railways who set the rules along the railway ROW including how close that the COE could build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Railways have Federal juristiction and the COE is powerless to force the railways to be expropriated or do anything unless the railways want cash or need something from the city.

    The Fort Road TOD was stymied by the railways who set the rules along the railway ROW including how close that the COE could build.
    hey have started building what appears to be high density. Nothing spectacular. Just another box with sardines to follow...
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  63. #8663
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Railways have Federal juristiction and the COE is powerless to force the railways to be expropriated or do anything unless the railways want cash or need something from the city.

    The Fort Road TOD was stymied by the railways who set the rules along the railway ROW including how close that the COE could build.
    And the feds can't be bothered to force the rail company to allow the city to build a bridge pier between the tracks to save a bunch of money? Even when there is federal funding involved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Railways have Federal juristiction and the COE is powerless to force the railways to be expropriated or do anything unless the railways want cash or need something from the city.

    The Fort Road TOD was stymied by the railways who set the rules along the railway ROW including how close that the COE could build.
    And the feds can't be bothered to force the rail company to allow the city to build a bridge pier between the tracks to save a bunch of money? Even when there is federal funding involved?
    logistically it would be rather difficult for the type of traffic and size of the yard. The realignments of rail and the potential for accidents is too high would be my guess.
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    I wonder how the city will do this,

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...metro-line-lrt
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  66. #8666

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    I dont get it. If we could of used to old signaling system on the new branch, why did we bother going down this other route?

  67. #8667

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    Medwards, you know the answer to that one. If it works, the COE will spend millions to replace it with the "new and improved" version that is no better than the old one and needs more money to "fix" the new one.

    It is a win, win, win, win situation.

    We get reduced transit service
    We get more traffic snarls
    We get the bill
    We elect the same dumbasses

    Can taxpayers stand any more winning?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 19-09-2018 at 08:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I dont get it. If we could of used to old signaling system on the new branch, why did we bother going down this other route?
    I had the exact same question. How did the tall foreheads at Silly Hall Transportation Planning not have thought of that before procurement?

    Possibly because it wouldn't actually work?
    ... gobsmacked

  69. #8669

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    but the tall foreheads seem to think it's now feasible?

  70. #8670

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    That was then, this is now...

    New set of tall foreheads after the old tall foreheads retired when the getting was good (with brown envelopes tucked in their pocket).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I don't get it. If we could of used to old signaling system on the new branch, why did we bother going down this other route?
    Concur. Will this city EVER design,OR contract a company to do a job correctly the first time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I dont get it. If we could of used to old signaling system on the new branch, why did we bother going down this other route?
    Theoretically, a CBTC system's more detailed data on train position and speed, combined with the ability to speed trains up and slow them down as needed, would have allowed the train to operate at high frequency while causing minimal traffic delays despite all of the at-grade crossings. Unfortunately, a combination of poor reliability and poor programming has delivered the exact opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    I dont get it. If we could of used to old signaling system on the new branch, why did we bother going down this other route?
    I've been asking this for 5+ years.

  74. #8674

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    Ohhhh Marcel, what do you or anyone on this forum know? We are just a bunch of armchair engineers that should shut up and let the tall foreheads make all the important decisions. Sit back and just pay your taxes and they don't want to hear a peep out of us...
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Ohhhh Marcel, what do you or anyone on this forum know? We are just a bunch of armchair engineers that should shut up and let the tall foreheads make all the important decisions. Sit back and just pay your taxes and they don't want to hear a peep out of us...
    .
    Until the elections at which time those same tall foreheads are re elected.....
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    To quote the great Montgomery Scott: the more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

  77. #8677

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    New Metro Line LRT signalling system ready to go today: Thales Canada

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...-thales-canada

    The trial wasn’t perfect. But there were no safety issues, he said. They haven’t had a hazardous event since a traffic gate failed to come down at a crossing last fall and they believe they fixed that issue.
    I guess they don't consider trains running in opposite directions ending up on the same track a 'hazardous event'.
    Last edited by Cumberland; 05-10-2018 at 08:55 AM.

  78. #8678
    C2E SME
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    At least we’re getting results. It’s impressive to see that trains can operate with a 90-second window.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  79. #8679

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    Fingers crossed but "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"

  80. #8680
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Can we reprogram the traffic signals now? With the current sequencing, a train every 3 minutes on the metro line would completely shut down all traffic flow on 111 Av.

  81. #8681
    I'd rather C2E than work!
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    Laughed when I heard this from Thales.

    Maybe they were just playing back the recording of last time they assured us all was okay.

    You know, sometime in 2017.
    ... gobsmacked

  82. #8682
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    I like how the city said something like, "or look elsewhere for another contractor." Most of us have heard the famous quote Einstein never said: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Maybe COE should adapt it as its slogan, instead of "The City of Champions."
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  83. #8683
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    Well I don't really know who to believe these days.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  84. #8684
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    It might not be Metro but at least there is some transportation study going on at Blatchford:

    https://blatchfordedmonton.ca/news-a...ry/news-posts/
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  85. #8685
    C2E SME
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    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  86. #8686
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    ^ Contingency busses are running tomorrow.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  87. #8687

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    Walking is a quicker option...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  88. #8688

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    Walking is a LOT faster than taking an urban style PRT anywhere

  89. #8689
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    Outside of our winters, even on a nice day like today, I'd rather bike then take the Metro lrt.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  90. #8690
    C2E Stole my Heart!!!!
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    Contingency buses today would be an even better option.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  91. #8691
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    Looks like the signal testing went well:

    https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...signal-testing
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  92. #8692

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    ^ Dave Beckley, Thales vice-president commercial operations and customer service poses for a picture.

    Proud achievement in underperformance.

    Thales had originally committed to finishing its work in December 2013, but it now faces a deadline to deliver a final product by Dec. 4 (201 after the city issued a notice of default against the company in May.
    Those responsible should be tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail...

    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  93. #8693

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    All fixed. Closet the thread.
    www.decl.org

  94. #8694
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    Yeah fixed - cause Thales said so.

    I mean, Thales is credible. Right?
    ... gobsmacked

  95. #8695
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    The signal programming still needs work. Lights are held red on 111 Av when the arrival of the train is still a minute and a half away. That will create chaos if it isn't fixed before the train frequency is increased.

  96. #8696

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    I remember hearing that would get better when speed went up.. it's still going slow, right?

    All the signals near the route need work. 106 and 107 aves at 105st are both far from ideal.
    There can only be one.

  97. #8697

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    "shovel ready" as I recall.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  98. #8698

    Default

    Should have shot, shoveled and shut up.
    There can only be one.

  99. #8699

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    Here is a trip down memory lane...

    Testing began in July 2013, and the line began operation in September 2015 with restrictions. There have been three delays in beginning operations on the line: one from April to June 2014, one from June to December 2014, and another from December 2014 to February 2015. The delays have been caused by issues with the signalling system built by Thales. Thales gave control of the system to the City of Edmonton in March 2015, but failed to provide adequate documentation to place the line into service. In February 2017, trains were cleared to travel at 50 km/h.

    In September, 2018, the Toronto Star reported that Edmonton had given Thales until April 30, 2017, to bring the system to full functionality. Edmonton had withheld $22 million from Thales, until the system was fully functional. When Thales did not meet this deadline Edmonton gave Thales a "notice of default". On September 13, 2018, Edmonton announced Thales had promised the signalling system would be fully functional by December 2018. Edmonton also announced there was a backup plan, to keep the route functioning, if Thales failed to deliver.
    AND
    Operating speed 80 kilometres per hour (50 mph) maximum
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Line

    Does Donald Trump own shares in Thales?

    I wonder how many unbudgeted tax dollars were spent on managing this disaster and all the legal costs for the COE?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; Yesterday at 06:00 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  100. #8700
    C2E Continued Contributor
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    Yeah time well tell. This project was a joke from concept to completion so I have little to no hope it will ever operate as it was supposed to.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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