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Thread: Borden Park- Natural Swimming Experience

  1. #1
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    Default Borden Park- Natural Swimming Experience

    As many of you know, Borden Park is undergoing a make-over. Many aspects of the project are underway, from new picnic shelters, walkways, gardens, a spray deck and kids playground.. one of the greatest aspects of the revival is the "Natural Swimming Experience"

    This crossed my e-mail & thought I'd share for anyone interested:

    "Through the council approved Outdoor Aquatic Strategy, Borden Outdoor Pool, one of
    Edmonton’s oldest outdoor pools was designated for rehabilitation. Alternate development
    scenarios were explored during the master plan process for Borden Park and it was determined
    that a Natural Swim Experience was a viable option. The Borden Natural Swim Experience will
    be the first public amenity of its kind in Canada and will provide unique year round recreational
    opportunities while honouring the history of the park. The Natural Swim Experience relies on
    natural biological filtration and is chemical free.

    The Project Coordinator is inviting the Bellevue Community League Board and the Borden Park Steering Committee to come and see the plan for the Natural Swimming Experience on Thursday September 12th at 7:00pm at The Bellevue Community League Building. Please come and join us if you can.
    If you do not have time on September 12th you can come to see the information with the public on Free Admission Day September 29, 11:00 – 4:00pm, Commonwealth Community Recreation Centre, 11000 Stadium Road."
    Parkdale

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    ^ I am super excited for this park.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

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    As long as there is no SAND at this natural pool!

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    o god...
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    I love this idea.

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    ^ the idea of sand.. or god lol
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    "natural swim experience" I read that poorly written piece 3 times before noticing that the term is defined at the end of the paragraph after stating the term multiple times.

    Basic communication fail.

    Why not just state "Chemical free swimming" I think people would all know what that means. What is this doubletalk?

    Anyway, sorry about that rant..

    Whats the difference anyway? Personally if I'm swimming in a public pool I want the damn thing overrun with chlorine or whatever else they put in. I'm not drinking the stuff I'm merely swimming in it. Why is this a big deal?

    Next, what on earth is "natural biological infiltration"?
    Last edited by Replacement; 10-09-2013 at 12:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJMorrocco View Post
    As long as there is no SAND at this natural pool!
    I believe there will be.

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    If the early concept that I saw still stands it's not just chemical free, but it has "natural" features, including planted landscaping that doubles as filtration/purification.

    As for chemical free, it's a big deal for people with exzema or similar conditions/sensitivities. My son can tolerate salt water pools, but normal chlorination leads to a few miserable itchy days no matter how well he rinses.

    Plus all the natural living enthusiasts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    "natural swim experience" I read that poorly written piece 3 times before noticing that the term is defined at the end of the paragraph after stating the term multiple times.

    Basic communication fail.

    Why not just state "Chemical free swimming" I think people would all know what that means. What is this doubletalk?

    Anyway, sorry about that rant..

    Whats the difference anyway? Personally if I'm swimming in a public pool I want the damn thing overrun with chlorine or whatever else they put in. I'm not drinking the stuff I'm merely swimming in it. Why is this a big deal?

    Next, what on earth is "natural biological infiltration"?
    To be fair, this "piece" was really just a communiqué from the EFCL to stakeholders, informing them of the meetings.. not meant to be an information piece.

    http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...tion-plan.aspx

    http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...onceptPlan.pdf
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    Borden is such a nice park, looking forward to this.
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    "Natural swimming experience" sounds like skinny dipping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bear View Post
    "Natural swimming experience" sounds like skinny dipping.
    My first impression tbh. I think they need to invent a new modern age lingo term. The one used has obvious other connotations.

    Or like I said just stick to the basics. "Chemical free swimming". Too much sense I guess.
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    Unless the swimming pool is securely fenced and covered after operating hours (neither is shown on the concept plan), this swimming experience seems tailor-made for fecal contamination, misuse, or worse.

    Small, shallow outdoor water bodies are never clean in nature, if by clean is meant suitable for swimming or wading by humans.

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    I'll be attending the meeting on the 12th. I know that it has been heavily researched and the city feels it will work. All we've seen to date is broad plans, I'll see if I can get some answers to some specific questions and will report back
    Parkdale

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    When the City says this will be "the first public amenity of its kind in Canada," maybe there are reasons for this other than no one else has been clever enough to have thought of it until now.

    Doesn't sound like the September 12 meeting is open to the public. I will check the information out at the Commonwealth Rec Centre on September 29.

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    I'm confused. The city has about a hundred excellent bodies of water that AHS says we can't use because they're not treated, and now we're boasting about the first natural experience that's not treated?

    Just let us swim in the lakes built in every single new community.
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    ^ What's stopping you ?

    I wade out thigh deep into the Fort Sask when I take the dogs out for a swim... haven't died yet..

    I'll wait to hear from folks who have some useful information, & we'll take it from there
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    Just because it's natural, doesn't mean there isn't a filter system. It's just a bio-filtration system that will have a chemical backup.

    It might be new here, but at the presentations they discussed how it's used elsewhere, particularly Germany was mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm confused. The city has about a hundred excellent bodies of water that AHS says we can't use because they're not treated, and now we're boasting about the first natural experience that's not treated?

    Just let us swim in the lakes built in every single new community.
    lol... any farmkid knows you never swim in a dugout and city stormwater ponds are nothing but dugouts.

    You are unintentionally calling for people to kill themselves Chimilz.
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    142119951-005
    08-Apr-2016
    7507 - BORDEN PARK ROAD NW
    Plan 2024KS Blk B

    To demolish existing pool, north building, west building and the most southerly building - (Natural Swimming Experience - Borden Park)

    ELLISDON CONSTRUCTION SERVICES INC, AARON SCHNEIDER

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    I'm confused. The city has about a hundred excellent bodies of water that AHS says we can't use because they're not treated, and now we're boasting about the first natural experience that's not treated?

    Just let us swim in the lakes built in every single new community.
    lol... any farmkid knows you never swim in a dugout and city stormwater ponds are nothing but dugouts.

    You are unintentionally calling for people to kill themselves Chimilz.
    Why? I was born in Genesee and swam behind beaver dams, in dugouts, and in gravel pits my entire childhood. It's not the wisest but I never succumbed to beaver fever. Just had to salt off a few leaches in my time.

    If anything it helped my immune system. I can't remember the last time I had anything worse than a stuffy nose.

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    Bah, time to start hosing everyone down with a mixture of peanuts and shellfish. Firm up the gene pool a bit.
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  24. #24

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    142119951-004
    27-Apr-2016
    7507 - BORDEN PARK ROAD NW
    Plan 2024KS Blk B

    To construct a public swimming pool and aquatic facility ("Natural Swim Experience" - Borden Park)

    ELLISDON CONSTRUCTION SERVICES INC, AARON SCHNEIDER

    $7,555,400

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    The pool and buildings are looking close to completion. I really like the grey granite stone that really stands out with the trees to the south.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevey_G View Post
    but I never succumbed to beaver fever.
    Does that mean you are not a heterosexual man or a lesbian? Beaver fever, hmmmm.

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    I was just thinking about this project the other day. It's supposed to open this summer, yes?

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    Yes it is. Borden park is a hidden jewel and the pool coming back will make it even better.
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    Excited.

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    ^So excited that nobody even bumped the thread. Apparently this thing is open now, around 2.5yrs late and lots of hiccups along the way and an already cracked and leaking treatment pond and the thing has NEVER even been open until now.

    15M on this brainstorm that won't be suitable for swimming for long and that I think will have one problem after another and longterm shutdowns.

    What a halfbaked scheme.


    How long before a bunch of ducks call it home and its a wetlands habitat. Or some kid ***** in the pool.

    You couldn't get me to in the water in this stupid thing.

    I'd bet its not running all season before some other problem pops up.

    heres another lol, it can't get to 28C without shutting the thing down. Its supposed to be 22C.



    Why is it that COE are basically always wanting to first in line for the stupidest ideas and almost guaranteed if some kind of faux ecology is involved.


    This is copious expense for a facility that not many people will trust. So much so that admission is free.


    The city doesn't have money to fix cracked wading pools that people WANT to be in and that they populate, but they gots money for this.
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    City tests water 3 times a week and sends in a sample to AHS for detailed testing once per week. lmao.

    Something like this needs constant water monitoring.

    lol at some of the articles on this as well. Water temps of 22C do not prevent harmful bacteria. Maybe 0C or colder would in which case at least it could be a small skating area in winter when this proves to be the latest stupid cOE development.

    lol that City outdoor pools are all free this summer. So much for any kind of user pay funding source or to at least pay back some of the operations and staffing costs.


    Why is the city speciously making outdoor pools free all summer? Guilt over closing wading pools?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^So excited that nobody even bumped the thread. Apparently this thing is open now, around 2.5yrs late and lots of hiccups along the way and an already cracked and leaking treatment pond and the thing has NEVER even been open until now.

    15M on this brainstorm that won't be suitable for swimming for long and that I think will have one problem after another and longterm shutdowns.

    What a halfbaked scheme.


    How long before a bunch of ducks call it home and its a wetlands habitat. Or some kid ***** in the pool.

    You couldn't get me to in the water in this stupid thing.

    I'd bet its not running all season before some other problem pops up.

    heres another lol, it can't get to 28C without shutting the thing down. Its supposed to be 22C.



    Why is it that COE are basically always wanting to first in line for the stupidest ideas and almost guaranteed if some kind of faux ecology is involved.


    This is copious expense for a facility that not many people will trust. So much so that admission is free.


    The city doesn't have money to fix cracked wading pools that people WANT to be in and that they populate, but they gots money for this.
    it’s my understanding there is a full “back-up” filtration plant “hiding in the background” for those times when the naturalized system is overwhelmed or not yet active (i.e. the first 6 weeks of spring before all of the plants and microorganisms are fully active).
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    City tests water 3 times a week and sends in a sample to AHS for detailed testing once per week. lmao.

    Something like this needs constant water monitoring.

    lol at some of the articles on this as well. Water temps of 22C do not prevent harmful bacteria. Maybe 0C or colder would in which case at least it could be a small skating area in winter when this proves to be the latest stupid cOE development.

    lol that City outdoor pools are all free this summer. So much for any kind of user pay funding source or to at least pay back some of the operations and staffing costs.


    Why is the city speciously making outdoor pools free all summer? Guilt over closing wading pools?
    Outdoor pools are free because it's only a minor increase in subsidy vs. charging admission. If free attracts significantly more users (I think it will, especially on days when there's risk of a thundershower or other weather cutting a visit short) then free could result in a significantly lower subsidy per user.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    This is copious expense for a facility that not many people will trust. So much so that admission is free.
    You've said a lot of dumb things, but this is probably the dumbest.
    They made admission to outdoor pools free last year in preparation for a single pool that they thought no one would trust, so they believed that no one would pay to be in it??

    I'm sure there will be hiccups with the system. Second of its kind in N america, but they're done in other parts of the world.
    From friends who have already been to the soft open a few times, it's a fantastic space.
    I'm excited to visit. It'll be faster for us to get to than Queen E. Mill creek is closest but I'm not a fan.

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    If this pool survives a season without shutting down for "maintenance" I'll be pleasantly surprised.

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    Don't know....something seems so unnatural about it...watched Paula from the Journal don her bathing suit.....seems like swimming in a bog in Saskatchy somewhere. Most users will be used to seeing the bottom of the pool......

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    They already said, if they get too many people, and the filtration system cant keep up, they have to close it..isn't that a total waste of money? although I really like the concept, we had a pool like that in the UK, it was usually freezing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^So excited that nobody even bumped the thread. Apparently this thing is open now, around 2.5yrs late and lots of hiccups along the way and an already cracked and leaking treatment pond and the thing has NEVER even been open until now.

    15M on this brainstorm that won't be suitable for swimming for long and that I think will have one problem after another and longterm shutdowns.

    What a halfbaked scheme.


    How long before a bunch of ducks call it home and its a wetlands habitat. Or some kid ***** in the pool.

    You couldn't get me to in the water in this stupid thing.

    I'd bet its not running all season before some other problem pops up.

    heres another lol, it can't get to 28C without shutting the thing down. Its supposed to be 22C.



    Why is it that COE are basically always wanting to first in line for the stupidest ideas and almost guaranteed if some kind of faux ecology is involved.


    This is copious expense for a facility that not many people will trust. So much so that admission is free.


    The city doesn't have money to fix cracked wading pools that people WANT to be in and that they populate, but they gots money for this.
    it’s my understanding there is a full “back-up” filtration plant “hiding in the background” for those times when the naturalized system is overwhelmed or not yet active (i.e. the first 6 weeks of spring before all of the plants and microorganisms are fully active).
    Thank you. Any of the articles and the quotations regarding the pool have failed to mention this which is quite a salient thing not to mention. Why on Earth would that critical information not be more disseminated in trying to persuade people to utilize this new endeavor?

    Also, the pool is shutdown at 28C, this clearly stated, so apparently no recourse for that possibility, which is increased potentially with air temp and number of users in pool. As far as you are aware is there a backup plan for intrusive plant species invading the plant natural filtration ponds. It seems to me nature will take course and other species of plants can potentially take hold. Wonder a bit as well how the biotic ponds will over winter or how well the sand/sediment type filtration will continue to be efficient. Finally do the combined plant bio filters rule out such things as algal growth?

    Not mentioned here either is the limitations. This is a cold swimming pool. Colder than normal. No cotton can be used at all. In briefs, swimwear etc. Also prohibition of several shampoos, cosmetics etc. That's a fairly significant problem requiring checks, monitoring being that a lot of things are not allowed which people would often use. The unsaid things with this pool is that ultimately a fair amount of people will be turned away or prevented from using.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-07-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    This is copious expense for a facility that not many people will trust. So much so that admission is free.
    You've said a lot of dumb things, but this is probably the dumbest.
    They made admission to outdoor pools free last year in preparation for a single pool that they thought no one would trust, so they believed that no one would pay to be in it??

    I'm sure there will be hiccups with the system. Second of its kind in N america, but they're done in other parts of the world.
    From friends who have already been to the soft open a few times, it's a fantastic space.
    I'm excited to visit. It'll be faster for us to get to than Queen E. Mill creek is closest but I'm not a fan.
    My commentary was dumb only for not knowing that there is a back up system in place which Kcantor just mentioned, but is mentioned in none of the articles on this.

    Being reasonably aware of what difficulties can arise through lack of back up forms or disinfection I had concerns with this pool. Which anybody should have in the absence of that being cited. Although I don't know what back up is in play its more comforting to know a back up system exists.

    I dare say comments I read online in EJ articles from readers saying things like "This is great, this is just like swimming in a pond, why be negative" are ironically stupid. Does anybody swim in a stagnant pond?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^So excited that nobody even bumped the thread. Apparently this thing is open now, around 2.5yrs late and lots of hiccups along the way and an already cracked and leaking treatment pond and the thing has NEVER even been open until now.

    15M on this brainstorm that won't be suitable for swimming for long and that I think will have one problem after another and longterm shutdowns.

    What a halfbaked scheme.


    How long before a bunch of ducks call it home and its a wetlands habitat. Or some kid ***** in the pool.

    You couldn't get me to in the water in this stupid thing.

    I'd bet its not running all season before some other problem pops up.

    heres another lol, it can't get to 28C without shutting the thing down. Its supposed to be 22C.



    Why is it that COE are basically always wanting to first in line for the stupidest ideas and almost guaranteed if some kind of faux ecology is involved.


    This is copious expense for a facility that not many people will trust. So much so that admission is free.


    The city doesn't have money to fix cracked wading pools that people WANT to be in and that they populate, but they gots money for this.
    it’s my understanding there is a full “back-up” filtration plant “hiding in the background” for those times when the naturalized system is overwhelmed or not yet active (i.e. the first 6 weeks of spring before all of the plants and microorganisms are fully active).
    Thank you. Any of the articles and the quotations regarding the pool have failed to mention this which is quite a huge thing not to mention. Why on Earth would that critical information not be more disseminated in trying to persuade people to utilize this new endeavor?

    Also, the pool is shutdown at 28C, this clearly stated, so apparently no recourse for that possibility, which is increased potentially with temp and number of users in pool. As far as you are aware is there a backup plan for intrusive plant species invading the plant natural filtration ponds. It seems to me nature will take course and other species of plants can take hold. Wonder a bit as well how the biotic ponds will over winter or how well the sand/sediment type filtration will continue to be efficient. Finally do the combined plant bio filters rule out such things as algal growth?
    please note that “it is my understanding” and the information - although considered to be from a reliable source - is second-hand...

    on why it’s not reported, it’s probably not on the media release as it takes away from the message (and the message is a good one, particularly if things work as intended). besides, it’s a good news being reported story, not an expose, and we could all use a bit more good news in our lives.

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  41. #41

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    ^That said with the COE in charge its hard to take such things as this at face value and with blanket trust. Which actually I won't do. I don't like fecal matter public pools much either or swimming in lakes.

    My bet is on this present amenity not being without numerous problems in this climate and as delivered and monitored by local authorities.


    But more the point theres simply no reason for this kind of pool, or expenditure. Theres no real value back, improvement over what we have in standard outdoor pools or amazing benefit of this use. Instead we have a green water cold pool that will be popular this summer as a fad, and with then declining attendance, interest. With Paula Simons practically searching and inventing reasons why this might be a better thing.

    This seems like another in a series of faux ecology attempts that don't really make one iota of difference.

    heres where logic kicks in. Most net benefit enthropy is served by simply not constructing this thing. But that would be my pragmatism and being boring kicking in.

    but jk aside its why its arguably faux ecology. You yourself hint at why the "all natural" in this is publicized and that the back up systems in play are not at all disclosed. I would of course wonder about that and the motivation for non disclosure. One of which is I think furthering such city initiatives that are rarely more than it "looks good' attempts at meaningful change that supports the environment. The same city introduced spraying of city roads which can easily be said to be more harmful to our water ecology than anything this pond circumvents.. Maybe the plants and eco filters are hiding real chemical filtration and sanitation that doesn't smell like Chlorine. Or maybe they have some left over road spray..

    I'm jk with the last part, I think.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-07-2018 at 03:13 PM.
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    The idea no one will want to go here is interesting given how popular the accidental beach is with water that isn't as clean and more hazardous. Plus all the people who swim in lakes and rivers all over the province. This is certainly cleaner than many of the rash inducing lakes people willingly dive into every summer. I expect the place will be packed most of the summer like every other outdoor pool in the city.

    I expect, as with any new thing, there will be hiccups as they work out the details, but that applies to anything and "never try anything new" should never be an answer.

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    Huge line up yesterday!

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    I'm curious as to how many days of 29+ temps it would take to bring the pool temperature up to 29C long enough to close it. I would think it take a few days at least so I doubt that will close it that often. On the other hand when it is that hot having a cool pool could be pretty popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Huge line up yesterday!
    That is great!

    Still need the accidental beach for the other masses of people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    The idea no one will want to go here is interesting given how popular the accidental beach is with water that isn't as clean and more hazardous. Plus all the people who swim in lakes and rivers all over the province. This is certainly cleaner than many of the rash inducing lakes people willingly dive into every summer. I expect the place will be packed most of the summer like every other outdoor pool in the city.

    I expect, as with any new thing, there will be hiccups as they work out the details, but that applies to anything and "never try anything new" should never be an answer.
    I have my own hot tub which I religiously treat and test. I don't swim in lakes, ponds, fecal matter, and I'm not trying it, sorry. More stuff can get contracted in public pools and in unsafe waters than I want any part of. Not that I'm saying this is unsafe but I imagine public pool "floaters" which happen more than anybody wants to believe in public pools, will be more of a potential issue in this pool. That's as much detail as I will go into, to spare the readers.

    That said I've never enjoyed public pools here. Bad memories of broadstock growing up..complete with school field trips of bullies trying to drown kids all under described "supervision" Closest I come to enjoying public pools is enjoying hot springs pools like in Radium but mostly not..
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  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Huge line up yesterday!
    That is great!

    Still need the accidental beach for the other masses of people.
    I'd rather they spend this money on Gondola system which would actually be public transit and serve an actual need.
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  48. #48

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    I'll do a Top Dawg attempt here and say its going to be some real interesting moments during K days when some drunk fair goers go to, or in the pool after drunk and sun exposed fun at the ex. There could be some real baked lobsters in the pool, just saying.

    Now that would be interesting.

    But probably not the best time to want to go to the pool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I'm curious as to how many days of 29+ temps it would take to bring the pool temperature up to 29C long enough to close it. I would think it take a few days at least so I doubt that will close it that often. On the other hand when it is that hot having a cool pool could be pretty popular.
    I initially thought 28C is very hot for a pool. I can't see it ever getting to that temperature. But then it appears most international competition pools are between 24-28C. so that would still be at the high end, but not crazy so.

    I noticed on some of the hotter days they have the solar water heater panels at Queen E covered, I assume as they're not needed but no way that pool gets up that hot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I'll do a Top Dawg attempt here and say its going to be some real interesting moments during K days when some drunk fair goers go to, or in the pool after drunk and sun exposed fun at the ex. There could be some real baked lobsters in the pool, just saying.

    Now that would be interesting.

    But probably not the best time to want to go to the pool.
    The outdoor pools close at 7p.
    I doubt anyone getting ****** at K-days would even think about the possibility of an outdoor pool. The people that do A are generally not the same people who do B.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Huge line up yesterday!
    That is great!

    Still need the accidental beach for the other masses of people.
    I'd rather they spend this money on Gondola system which would actually be public transit and serve an actual need.
    Funny how this pool could be approved at taxpayer cost when it cannot be used in hurricane winds, freezing temperatures and all the other unreal obstructions they threw at the privately funded gondola idea.

    I don't mind the pool even with its limitations but the hypocrisy is 6 feet deep.
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    Well the city seems to be bending over backwards to get people to swim in the North Sask. river, I think I'd rather take my chances on the pool at Borden than swim in that polluted, dirty river

    Edmontonians probably don't have a ton of experience swimming in natural bodies of water though. I love swimming in the lake at our cabin in the Caribou, it's filtered and cleaned much the same way the natural pool will be. Our lake however is fed from tributaries from Wells Gray which don't run though any farm or industrial land or urban areas. It is a very pleasant experience being in natural water.
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  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Huge line up yesterday!
    That is great!

    Still need the accidental beach for the other masses of people.
    I'd rather they spend this money on Gondola system which would actually be public transit and serve an actual need.
    Funny how this pool could be approved at taxpayer cost when it cannot be used in hurricane winds, freezing temperatures and all the other unreal obstructions they threw at the privately funded gondola idea.

    I don't mind the pool even with its limitations but the hypocrisy is 6 feet deep.
    It sure is. The same councillors being ecstatic about this idea. I can't really reconcile it. this is far more of an experiment an untried thing in the Americas than a gondola system would be.


    The strangest complaints I saw about the gondola is "heights" or safety risks. As if people think busses are safer than Gondolas or something..
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  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I'm curious as to how many days of 29+ temps it would take to bring the pool temperature up to 29C long enough to close it. I would think it take a few days at least so I doubt that will close it that often. On the other hand when it is that hot having a cool pool could be pretty popular.
    I initially thought 28C is very hot for a pool. I can't see it ever getting to that temperature. But then it appears most international competition pools are between 24-28C. so that would still be at the high end, but not crazy so.

    I noticed on some of the hotter days they have the solar water heater panels at Queen E covered, I assume as they're not needed but no way that pool gets up that hot.
    My pool was up to 34C the other day and I only heat it up to 26C. The natural solar gain is far above ambient especially when the water is brackish. .
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  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I'm curious as to how many days of 29+ temps it would take to bring the pool temperature up to 29C long enough to close it. I would think it take a few days at least so I doubt that will close it that often. On the other hand when it is that hot having a cool pool could be pretty popular.
    I initially thought 28C is very hot for a pool. I can't see it ever getting to that temperature. But then it appears most international competition pools are between 24-28C. so that would still be at the high end, but not crazy so.

    I noticed on some of the hotter days they have the solar water heater panels at Queen E covered, I assume as they're not needed but no way that pool gets up that hot.
    My pool was up to 34C the other day and I only heat it up to 26C. The natural solar gain is far above ambient especially when the water is brackish. .
    The heat factor of 400 or so people at a time, and some exerting energy, isn't being factored in either as conductive heat transference. But yeah, solar, especially for shallow pools is a considerable factor. This pool used to be sun facing, I presume it still is with not much cover.

    Also what is not factored in is the ambient starting temp of the water they are going with is already 22C. So that we're only talking 6-7C increase for closure.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-07-2018 at 11:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    I'm curious as to how many days of 29+ temps it would take to bring the pool temperature up to 29C long enough to close it. I would think it take a few days at least so I doubt that will close it that often. On the other hand when it is that hot having a cool pool could be pretty popular.
    I initially thought 28C is very hot for a pool. I can't see it ever getting to that temperature. But then it appears most international competition pools are between 24-28C. so that would still be at the high end, but not crazy so.

    I noticed on some of the hotter days they have the solar water heater panels at Queen E covered, I assume as they're not needed but no way that pool gets up that hot.
    My pool was up to 34C the other day and I only heat it up to 26C. The natural solar gain is far above ambient especially when the water is brackish. .
    I wonder if the nature of the filtration system, essentially through ground, cools it though? You generally don't even find small ponds heating up that much. That said I'm no expert so it will remain to be seen.

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  57. #57

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    Evaporative cooling in a pool is huge. the filter ponds have plants that effectively increase the surface area increasing evaporation even more.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Evaporative cooling in a pool is huge. the filter ponds have plants that effectively increase the surface area increasing evaporation even more.
    Pretty much what my friend who some background in this, who I just checked in with, said. Also the ground contact in the filtration process will have an impact. As for the people heating it noticeably, it sounds like the water volume for a pool this size is more than large enough to absorb that without it affecting the temperature noticeably.

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  59. #59

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    Many plant varieties, lily pads, others actually heat the water and help the water retain heat. Albeit those varieties of plants would not be specifically planted they can invade. I still wonder about families of waterfowl thinking this is just a great thing..
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  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    I'll do a Top Dawg attempt here and say its going to be some real interesting moments during K days when some drunk fair goers go to, or in the pool after drunk and sun exposed fun at the ex. There could be some real baked lobsters in the pool, just saying.

    Now that would be interesting.

    But probably not the best time to want to go to the pool.
    The outdoor pools close at 7p.
    I doubt anyone getting ****** at K-days would even think about the possibility of an outdoor pool. The people that do A are generally not the same people who do B.

    You've quite clearly NEVER been to Alberta Beach or Mameo beach back in their heyday.. Brown bags for your mickey optional in the water. Somewhat fun if in the right mood..
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-07-2018 at 11:58 PM.
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  61. #61
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 13-07-2018 at 10:23 AM.
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    I love the idea of this but don’t trust people enough to care about the rules and guidelines re how we the public needs to do their part to keep the system healthy.

    People wont care what they wear, showering properly and if there kid pisses in it they sure in the hell wont tell anyone.
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    The next couple of days should be a good test of whether the pool can stay cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    It was at capacity at 3p yesterday when we tried to get in. Went to Queen E instead, which was also close to capacity with a small line of a dozen or so waiting.
    They closed Queen E pool at 6p (instead of 7p) due to bad water clarity and chastised swimmers for not rinsing after applying or reapplying sunscreen.

  66. #66

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    So some noted concerns.

    The Pool is often closing unexpectedly. Again today it was closed from noon-4pm on a Saturday of all things. Today it was due to weather reports. Undoubtedly it was closed much of yesterday as the pool is not open during "inclement weather" which we seem to get a lot of.

    The pool also with daily capacity of 980 resulting in the capacity reached closures cited above. Of note the pool would have been closed at around 4 anyway due to the storm advisories.

    The Pool also closes any day when temp is 18C or below. Closes any time water temp reaches 29C.

    The pool as per article also can take as long as 48hrs to open after a "brown log event"

    4/6 days the pool has reached daily capacity and just closed..


    It'll be interesting to see how much this is actually open. Seems odd the article cites people coming from around city to go in. Given its unreliable time schedule and closures its not really much of a guaranteed option. I sure wouldn't drive 30minutes each way and spend todays gas prices to see if we got lucky and it was actually open.

    One can check online but the pool can close anytime.

    http://coewebapps.edmonton.ca/facili...ynotifications
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-07-2018 at 05:17 PM.
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  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So some noted concerns.

    The Pool is often closing unexpectedly. Again today it was closed from noon-4pm on a Saturday of all things. Today it was due to weather reports. Undoubtedly it was closed much of yesterday as the pool is not open during "inclement weather" which we seem to get a lot of.

    The pool also with daily capacity of 980 resulting in the capacity reached closures cited above. Of note the pool would have been closed at around 4 anyway due to the storm advisories.

    The Pool also closes any day when temp is 18C or below. Closes any time water temp reaches 29C.

    The pool as per article also can take as long as 48hrs to open after a "brown log event"

    4/6 days the pool has reached daily capacity and just closed..


    It'll be interesting to see how much this is actually open. Seems odd the article cites people coming from around city to go in. Given its unreliable time schedule and closures its not really much of a guaranteed option. I sure wouldn't drive 30minutes each way and spend todays gas prices to see if we got lucky and it was actually open.

    One can check online but the pool can close anytime.

    http://coewebapps.edmonton.ca/facili...ynotifications
    Just to be clear, it isn't closing when it reaches capacity, it's just turning people away. Actually sounds like a sign of success rather than failure.

    Wrt inclement weather closures, I don't understand your point. Would you have had it stay open during yesterday's storm? Closing when it's below 18C is also no big deal: who wants to go swimming when it's that cold anyway? And it's unlikely for the water to reach 29C given Edmonton's climate so I don't see that being a significant impediment either.

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    Why do people ruin nice things in Edmonton, like crapping in the pool.
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  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So some noted concerns.

    The Pool is often closing unexpectedly. Again today it was closed from noon-4pm on a Saturday of all things. Today it was due to weather reports. Undoubtedly it was closed much of yesterday as the pool is not open during "inclement weather" which we seem to get a lot of.

    The pool also with daily capacity of 980 resulting in the capacity reached closures cited above. Of note the pool would have been closed at around 4 anyway due to the storm advisories.

    The Pool also closes any day when temp is 18C or below. Closes any time water temp reaches 29C.

    The pool as per article also can take as long as 48hrs to open after a "brown log event"

    4/6 days the pool has reached daily capacity and just closed..


    It'll be interesting to see how much this is actually open. Seems odd the article cites people coming from around city to go in. Given its unreliable time schedule and closures its not really much of a guaranteed option. I sure wouldn't drive 30minutes each way and spend todays gas prices to see if we got lucky and it was actually open.

    One can check online but the pool can close anytime.

    http://coewebapps.edmonton.ca/facili...ynotifications
    Just to be clear, it isn't closing when it reaches capacity, it's just turning people away. Actually sounds like a sign of success rather than failure.

    Wrt inclement weather closures, I don't understand your point. Would you have had it stay open during yesterday's storm? Closing when it's below 18C is also no big deal: who wants to go swimming when it's that cold anyway? And it's unlikely for the water to reach 29C given Edmonton's climate so I don't see that being a significant impediment either.
    Its kind of a moot point. The water temperature is 22C which may not sound bad but not really that comfortable on anything but a hot day. As far as hitting capacity that means essentially closed for anybody incoming. They could care less that theres people still actually in the pool, you're still hooped.

    Success? Its a free pool that the City spent 14.5M on that will barely be open. I think I'd wait a few mths before determining success. Right now its drawing as people seem predictably drawn to pointless faux eco measures like this. Right now its a novelty. What happens when the water starts to take on a different "natural" smell? Right now its brand new. I would be amazed if there are not more substantive problems with this pool. Lets keep in mind as well that the opening of this was delayed two years. Is that a success? Maybe in Edmonton terms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...

    Success? Its a free pool that the City spent 14.5M on that will barely be open. I think I'd wait a few mths before determining success. Right now its drawing as people seem predictably drawn to pointless faux eco measures like this. Right now its a novelty. What happens when the water starts to take on a different "natural" smell? Right now its brand new. I would be amazed if there are not more substantive problems with this pool. Lets keep in mind as well that the opening of this was delayed two years. Is that a success? Maybe in Edmonton terms.
    emphasis added...

    you would wait a few months before determining success.

    but you have no issue declaring it an abject failure from the get go.

    telling?
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  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...

    Success? Its a free pool that the City spent 14.5M on that will barely be open. I think I'd wait a few mths before determining success. Right now its drawing as people seem predictably drawn to pointless faux eco measures like this. Right now its a novelty. What happens when the water starts to take on a different "natural" smell? Right now its brand new. I would be amazed if there are not more substantive problems with this pool. Lets keep in mind as well that the opening of this was delayed two years. Is that a success? Maybe in Edmonton terms.
    emphasis added...

    you would wait a few months before determining success.

    but you have no issue declaring it an abject failure from the get go.

    telling?
    It is an ecological failure from the outset. The mere enthropy of building the damn thing defeats the alleged purpose of this being some green type of endeavor.


    What was the point of this pool other than so that the COE can feel a false sense of environmental stewardship?

    That said I doubt it serves the purposes that it was supposedly intended for, very consistently or very long.

    Obviously its 2yr delay to even being opened is abject failure to deliver any appreciable service to residents. From a service pos this project was a failure before the pool even opened.

    This facility had to be redesigned from original conception due to cost overruns of original design. This resulted in at least a two year delay. in it even being opened.

    Did this pool provide any service as expected in 2016? No, failure.

    2017? No, failure.

    2018? Not much, it wasn't opened until half way into July meaning that it already missed half of the short summer season it could be open in a summer. Due to changes it also has very limited daily capacity, and turns users away daily after disappointing residents for over 2 summers.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-07-2018 at 10:59 AM.
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  72. #72

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    Its somewhat odd that COE cites the Minnesota Webber Pool and studied that one as a prelude to building this one. That pool has been an unmitigated failure. It also took 2 years longer to open than expected. It also came with problems keeping costs down. It also has had frequent closures and ironically is closed right at this moment as we are discussing this Edmonton natural pool.

    The latest problems that they can't seem to stop in Minnesota is that Ducks have taken a liking to the ponds filtration ponds and actual pool and of course relieving themselves in and around the pool area. They've also had problems with frogs using the wetlands habitat and other invasive plant and aquatic species settling in.

    Theres even been expressed thoughts they should just go the chlorine route. Minnesota has also had the added expense of bussing local residents to other pools due to how many times the Webber pool has closed.


    So Its interesting how often the Minnesota Pool, the only other Natural public swimming pool in North America is having considerable problems. Actual typical and expected problems. I had even specifically mentioned the probability that ducks will want to move in.

    This study also concludes that natural pool filtration is inadequate;

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0808092053.htm


    This provides a lot more information that should be considered;

    https://www.pondtrademag.com/pond-or...m-pond-debate/


    Also, I have not once heard that people with any automimmune issues, diseases, or any open sours or wounds should not enter the pool. Nor have I heard any info regarding menstrual cycles. Or any mention at the potential risks from bacteria and organisms that can be found in a natural pool.

    Have we just opened up potential liability?
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-07-2018 at 12:01 PM.
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    ^

    you’re conflating delivery with performance...

    your “wait a few months” admonishment to OffWhyte dealt only with performance. if issues with delivery preclude success, why wait to make that determination? simply deem it a failure regardless of how successful it turns out to be without holding out false hope that anything can be a success in your opinion.

    ps at some point it becomes more a reflection of how/what you think that one of posting/writing style. that defense is starting to become a bit tiresome as well as questionable.
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  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    you’re conflating delivery with performance...

    your “wait a few months” admonishment to OffWhyte dealt only with performance. if issues with delivery preclude success, why wait to make that determination? simply deem it a failure regardless of how successful it turns out to be without holding out false hope that anything can be a success in your opinion.

    ps at some point it becomes more a reflection of how/what you think that one of posting/writing style. that defense is starting to become a bit tiresome as well as questionable.
    "Admonishment" I merely question the claim of it being a success.

    I've backed up the reasons for my concerns. Which are mirrored in the debate and concerns about these natural swimming pools. Do a little digging as I have done.

    I critique stuff like this because its a boondoggle stupid idea that few jurisdictions in NA would even take on. Next as mentioned its clearly faux ecology. Third its a waste of money. 4th, like the Webber Pool this will be mostly inconsistent delivery of amenity to end users.

    There is nothing wrong either with my premise that the design and concept of this had already failed before opening. "Massive" changes in the design that required cost cutting and an over two year delay in opening is failure to deliver a service as expected or intended.

    I'm not generally predisposed to "holding out false hope" Not sure what you meant to say with that.

    My comments on Edmonton boondoggles are a reflection on how incompetent this City is and how keen it is to engage in the most inane of ideas. The same city administration somehow scoffs at perfectly viable and beneficial ideas like Gondola transportation.

    If the City was less incompetent I would have somewhat different views.

    I caution you not to go on edit as 80% of the comments on Borden Park Pool are critiquing it and the concept. You probably wouldn't like those comments either.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-07-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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    ^
    you told OffWhyte to wait a few months before declaring success. that certainly implies success was possible over that time. now you say success was and never will be possible. is that not “false hope”?
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  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    ^

    you’re conflating delivery with performance...

    your “wait a few months” admonishment to OffWhyte dealt only with performance. if issues with delivery preclude success, why wait to make that determination? simply deem it a failure regardless of how successful it turns out to be without holding out false hope that anything can be a success in your opinion.

    ps at some point it becomes more a reflection of how/what you think that one of posting/writing style. that defense is starting to become a bit tiresome as well as questionable.
    "Admonishment" I merely question the claim of it being a success.

    I've backed up the reasons for my concerns. Which are mirrored in the debate and concerns about these natural swimming pools. Do a little digging as I have done.

    I critique stuff like this because its a boondoggle stupid idea that few jurisdictions in NA would even take on. Next as mentioned its clearly faux ecology. Third its a waste of money. 4th, like the Webber Pool this will be mostly inconsistent delivery of amenity to end users.

    There is nothing wrong either with my premise that the design and concept of this had already failed before opening. "Massive" changes in the design that required cost cutting and an over two year delay in opening is failure to deliver a service as expected or intended.

    I'm not generally predisposed to "holding out false hope" Not sure what you meant to say with that.

    My comments on Edmonton boondoggles are a reflection on how incompetent this City is and how keen it is to engage in the most inane of ideas. The same city administration somehow scoffs at perfectly viable and beneficial ideas like Gondola transportation.

    If the City was less incompetent I would have somewhat different views.

    I caution you not to go on edit as 80% of the comments on Borden Park Pool are critiquing it and the concept. You probably wouldn't like those comments either.
    I am certainly no fan of this city administration or council. With their track record consisting of closed-door meetings, back-room deals, redacted records, and missed deadlines suggestive of incompetence, cronyism, and everything in between they are certainly worthy of criticism.

    However, for this particular project, to cite the fact that the pool has reached capacity on more days than not and to falsely claim that the pool has closed as a result is highly misleading; it is too early to decide whether this facility will be a success or failure in serving the community. Prematurely deriding it as a failure diverts away from more important issues. Those issues, as you point out, are the questionable environmental value of this project and the opportunity cost incurred in delivering it.

  77. #77

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    ^Reasonable interjection, certainly did not mean to "admonish" your post. Note that I responded to your earlier post just through it being described as a success. My reply was in general to such notion, not just specific to your post.

    I don't agree that its premature to deride a concept that has only once before been tried in a public facility before and with that one widely regarded as a failure.

    My reply to you was valid. Around 7K people thus far have used and been served by this pool. This in a period of time of 3 years(summers) of expected usage. This is not very successful. While numbers will increase I do, like many, and even those involved in constructing this facility, have concerns about how much it will operate and for how long.

    I knew there would be pent up demand for this facility because it was hyped for years by the city and people waited for years to it open. This generally results in created demand. Which is usually a temporary thing.


    This just an aside but in backing this thing people describe the "wondrous natural water and how different it feels" I've been in any number of lakes and the only that feels different is it feeling less clean than a bathtub..I don't feel the water is any different. its water. I only mention this because it seems like people actively search for any reasons to value something like this. Even in this thread.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-07-2018 at 01:29 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  78. #78

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    As it stands. The pool clearly is a success. Will it remain such who knows, do we declare a chlorinated pool a failure when it cracks and needs repair or it pump breaks down, no.

    lets not be drama queens.

    I, for one, will continue to swim in my chlorinated mill creek ravine pool. To many times getting hives out at the lake for me to chance it thank you very much.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  79. #79
    C2E SME
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    The Pool is often closing unexpectedly. Again today it was closed from noon-4pm on a Saturday of all things. Today it was due to weather reports. Undoubtedly it was closed much of yesterday as the pool is not open during "inclement weather" which we seem to get a lot of.


    Those closures would have happened regardless of the design of the pool, so long as it remained outdoors. I would imagine all of the city's other outdoor, chlorinated pools were also closed at the same time. It's not anything unique to this pool. Your "concern" in this regard is invalid.

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement
    The Pool is often closing unexpectedly. Again today it was closed from noon-4pm on a Saturday of all things. Today it was due to weather reports. Undoubtedly it was closed much of yesterday as the pool is not open during "inclement weather" which we seem to get a lot of.


    Those closures would have happened regardless of the design of the pool, so long as it remained outdoors. I would imagine all of the city's other outdoor, chlorinated pools were also closed at the same time. It's not anything unique to this pool. Your "concern" in this regard is invalid.
    Normal chlorinated pools do not have daily capacity. They have peak capacity at any given time. This Borden Park pool can accept no more than 960/day capacity. Also the temperature ranges for this pool are not as great. Warmer pools can operate much longer periods of time and in the case of hot pools even in winter. This pool will close any time of day that it isn't 18C. That reduces use times somewhat as well.

    But yeah, the inclement weather the pool shouldn't operate, but natural pools are much more susceptible to rainstorms as any leeching of rain from sidewalk, lawna, walkways or surfaces could be contaminated and requiring checking of the pool. A chlorinated pool copes with runoff better. So that a storm shuts down THIS pool for a longer period of time due to the risks and monitoring. FTR the other outdoor pools are not closed for the same length of time this one is. I've checked. Multiple times out of curiosity. The updates are online which I linked earlier. (but only lists present time. ) So that a pool will denote advisory of closure hours. Two other outdoor pools were closed 2hrs yesterday due to inclement weather. Borden was closed 4 hrs yesterday. That wasn't even a big storm yesterday.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  81. #81
    C2E Long Term Contributor
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    This is a gem through and through.

    Operational considerations are fine.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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