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Thread: Zipper Merging, Late Merge in construction zones

  1. #1

    Default Zipper Merging, Late Merge in construction zones

    Possibly years ago, somewhere else on c2e, I mentioned that in construction zones, accident areas, etc. people should 'merge at the barrier/sign and not before' because early mergers essentially get pushed back further and further by those that drive past the forming flow through lane and get in ahead of them.

    Well, on CBC radio this morning, there was a piece about needing to educate Edmontonians about how to merge properly and they called it "zipper" merging. That in some countries it's the law... Check CBC radio for videos - they say they are posting them.



    Note: just two days ago I pulled off the Anthony Henday and followed the road onto 87th ave east bound right into road construction. Traffic was backed up right over the overpass in the inside(left) lane. I drove in the empty merge lane past waiting and early merging cars then down the empty right lane, right up to the merge sign and then waited for someone to let me in. Five or six cars deliberately / aggressively prevented any opening from forming to let me merge at the sign, possibly because they'd already let loads of cars get in, in front of them or they themselves had merged too soon.

    What I hate though is people that drive on the shoulder to get past waiting cars. However, it's often too bad that two lanes don't form where the shoulder could be used to get around an obstacle, say an accident on the highway.



    I think the should use "Merge at the Barrier" or "Merge at the Sign" for planned lane closures.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_merge


    ~
    Last edited by KC; 24-06-2014 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Add barrier, spelled too as two - can you believe it!

  2. #2

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    merging is one of the worst driving bad practices I see in Edmonton. Between the people that don't know how to merge, either from an exit ramp, or when a lane closure due to construction, to the dumbasses that won't allow others to merge in front... because you know, you're going to get so far being that one car ahead


    It's easy people. If you can put on your pants, you can merge properly.


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    Late merging actually moves the most amount of cars on a road. I used to be of the mindset that people were cutting in, but after thinking it over late merging makes perfect sense.

    In my hypothetical situation to make the numbers easy ... if we say the construction zone is 1 mile and the merge signs are a mile away the road goes from 2 to 1 lane, then which would move more traffic
    1 mile of 2 lanes + 1 mile of 1 lane or
    2 miles of 1 lane?

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    The best way is to merge at the sign. I've worked and driven all over the US and that's how it's done down there. As mentioned it's much more efficient to use both lanes of traffic right up to the merge point at the construction area. That's what I do in Edmonton and people honk and give me the finger. Some people just don't get it. So I agree an education campaign is needed. Thx KC!
    It's not EIA it's YEG

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Late merging actually moves the most amount of cars on a road. I used to be of the mindset that people were cutting in, but after thinking it over late merging makes perfect sense.

    In my hypothetical situation to make the numbers easy ... if we say the construction zone is 1 mile and the merge signs are a mile away the road goes from 2 to 1 lane, then which would move more traffic
    1 mile of 2 lanes + 1 mile of 1 lane or
    2 miles of 1 lane?
    They generally move the same amount of traffic since the restriction is the choke point/construction zone. Cars can only go so fast and be so close together in the construction zone. If you look at the zipper animation above, the same amount of 'cars' are moving regardless if the zipper connection point was in the middle, top or bottom of the screen.

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    Alas many studies disagree with you ...

    When traffic is heavy and slow, it is actually much safer for motorists to remain in their current lane until the point where traffic can orderly take turns merging which is generally after the “MERGE” sign. Unfortunately, while the safer procedure is legal, it is not what has been taught.
    ...
    By creating two full lanes of traffic, we reduce the difference in speeds between the two lanes. Therefore, vehicles generally do not have a reason to switch lanes, and if they do decide to switch, then the traffic is traveling approximately the same speed in both lanes making the maneuver is much easier and safer...
    http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficen...rge-zipper.pdf


    Results of the computer simulations show ed the late merge produced a statistically significant increase in throughput volume for only the 3-to-1-lane closure configuration and was beneficial across all factors for this type of closure. For the 2-to-1 and 3-to-2 lane closure configurations, the late merge in creased throughput when the percentage of heavy vehicles was
    large.
    http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main.../pdf/05-r6.pdf
    http://www.edmunds.com/driving-tips/...sidezoomer.htm
    Last edited by sundance; 24-06-2014 at 08:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Late merging actually moves the most amount of cars on a road. I used to be of the mindset that people were cutting in, but after thinking it over late merging makes perfect sense.

    In my hypothetical situation to make the numbers easy ... if we say the construction zone is 1 mile and the merge signs are a mile away the road goes from 2 to 1 lane, then which would move more traffic
    1 mile of 2 lanes + 1 mile of 1 lane or
    2 miles of 1 lane?
    They generally move the same amount of traffic since the restriction is the choke point/construction zone. Cars can only go so fast and be so close together in the construction zone. If you look at the zipper animation above, the same amount of 'cars' are moving regardless if the zipper connection point was in the middle, top or bottom of the screen.
    And it's fairer. People that merge early have to expect that others will go in ahead of them pushing early mergers relative position back in the line.

    Funny how things get bass awkward. As an aside, I was on QEII a few days ago and for about 25 km north of Calgary the number of vehicles in the left lane outnumbered those in the right hand lane by 8 to 10 to one. No one was treating the left hand lane as a passing lane and moving into the right hand lane. (The large number of semis in the right hand lane doing the speed limit was really screwing up the smooth flow of traffic.)

  8. #8

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    A DIY Instructional video...

    http://youtu.be/vLVMW8KnfBE

    It makes a good point - merge when safe and early if the traffic is flowing fast. (i.e. a lineup hasn't formed.) Otherwise, as they said (EMPHASIS added): "RESIST THE URGE TO MERGE EARLY."
    Above, I was only thinking of those times when traffic has obviously slowed to a crawl in front of you.
    Last edited by KC; 24-06-2014 at 09:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Late merging actually moves the most amount of cars on a road. I used to be of the mindset that people were cutting in, but after thinking it over late merging makes perfect sense.

    In my hypothetical situation to make the numbers easy ... if we say the construction zone is 1 mile and the merge signs are a mile away the road goes from 2 to 1 lane, then which would move more traffic
    1 mile of 2 lanes + 1 mile of 1 lane or
    2 miles of 1 lane?
    They generally move the same amount of traffic since the restriction is the choke point/construction zone. Cars can only go so fast and be so close together in the construction zone. If you look at the zipper animation above, the same amount of 'cars' are moving regardless if the zipper connection point was in the middle, top or bottom of the screen.
    The longer the single lane portion is the farther back the zone of slow moving traffic is pushed and the sooner drivers have to slow down when they reach that zone.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  10. #10

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    "Zipper" is quite good choice of words because it also highlights the yield to one vehicle idea (I'm not sure what they call that - maybe there's a word for it to.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcgc8kYlPpc

    "After 20 years of unsuccessfully teaching Minnesotans how to do the zipper merge, MN State Trooper Kurt Anderson comes undone."


    Zipper Merge
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcPby71TNC0

    "Most Minnesota motorists start to merge in construction zones as soon as they see warning signs and learn which lane ahead is closed. This driving behavior, called "early merge" can lead to dangerous lane switching, inconsistent driving speeds that cause crashes, long back-ups that block interchanges, and road rage."




    A good article here...

    Attention Minnesota Drivers: Use The Zipper Merge
    September 26, 2012
    excerpts:

    We’ve all been there, road construction forces everybody to get into one lane. Don’t you hate it when one guy waits until the last possible moment to merge, instead of getting in line and waiting his turn?
    Well, guess what? That guy who waits until the last minute is actually doing it right. It’s "...

    "...MnDOT says there is one time when you shouldn’t use the Zipper Merge.
    If traffic is moving at highway speeds and there are no backups — move to the lane that stays open through a construction zone as soon as you can."

    http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/0...-zipper-merge/

    ~
    Last edited by KC; 24-06-2014 at 09:22 AM.

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    Oh zipper merging is the most fair method (other methods are as efficient just not as fair). However late zipper merging does give you the highest throughput.

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    "Take turns, Merge here". What could be simpler. The cop knows.
    It's not EIA it's YEG

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    Even more efficient to merge this way if there is a traffic light before the merge point. When the light turns red the 2 lanes of traffic keep moving and merging.
    It's not EIA it's YEG

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    merging is the single most frustrating thing here in Edmonton...people just don't know how.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    ^ you mean im not supposed to come to a complete stop at the beginning of the merge lane and pray that some ***** in the lane over comes to a stop as well to let me in?
    be offended! figure out why later...

  16. #16

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    Why doesn't zippering work will in Edmonton? Because people treat a merge into a single lane like a line at movie theatre or bank. Some drivers view people merging in near where two lanes become one as "budding in line". They will actively obstruct drivers, since they "should have waited there turn" and merged at the "back of the line".

    Zippering should be part of driver training; it makes the most sense, but people need to be taught it, or they'll use other examples in their lives when trying to deal with a single lane of traffic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Alas many studies disagree with you ...

    When traffic is heavy and slow, it is actually much safer for motorists to remain in their current lane until the point where traffic can orderly take turns merging which is generally after the “MERGE” sign. Unfortunately, while the safer procedure is legal, it is not what has been taught.
    ...
    By creating two full lanes of traffic, we reduce the difference in speeds between the two lanes. Therefore, vehicles generally do not have a reason to switch lanes, and if they do decide to switch, then the traffic is traveling approximately the same speed in both lanes making the maneuver is much easier and safer...
    http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficen...rge-zipper.pdf


    Results of the computer simulations show ed the late merge produced a statistically significant increase in throughput volume for only the 3-to-1-lane closure configuration and was beneficial across all factors for this type of closure. For the 2-to-1 and 3-to-2 lane closure configurations, the late merge in creased throughput when the percentage of heavy vehicles was
    large.
    http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main.../pdf/05-r6.pdf
    http://www.edmunds.com/driving-tips/...sidezoomer.htm
    Those quotes don't disagree with me. They say it's safer and easier, not faster.
    The only time it is faster is in a 3-1 merge, which I have never seen here. Or when there's lots of large trucks, possible I guess.
    I'm not saying it's bad, I would love if everyone did it. But only to reduce stress and anger.

    On the topic of merging, I think a PSA is required to let people know that people on freeways do NOT have the right of way over cars entering on a entry ramp. No one has the right of way. My unofficial rule has been if the entering traffic is going the same speed as the freeway traffic, then they have the right of way. If they are going slower, then the freeway traffic has the right of way. Every personal vehicle on the road today can make it to 80kph on all the on ramps that exist to our freeways.

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    It's not isolated to Edmonton. The Texas Transportation Institute did a study a few years back called "Understanding Road Rage." (You can google it up if you really want a dry read.) They found that one of the most common sources of road rage is poor merging habits, and that road designs can actually make the problem worse.

    In the study they reworked test sections on busy Dallas freeways with new barriers, lines, and signs to promote people to do late, zipper merging. Basically by "dumbing it down" they got most people to merge better, which improved traffic flow and reduced road rage in those test sections of road.

    It's harder to accomplish that in a temporary road construction situation. But I still think some improved signage and barrier placement would probably help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Alas many studies disagree with you ...

    When traffic is heavy and slow, it is actually much safer for motorists to remain in their current lane until the point where traffic can orderly take turns merging which is generally after the “MERGE” sign. Unfortunately, while the safer procedure is legal, it is not what has been taught.
    ...
    By creating two full lanes of traffic, we reduce the difference in speeds between the two lanes. Therefore, vehicles generally do not have a reason to switch lanes, and if they do decide to switch, then the traffic is traveling approximately the same speed in both lanes making the maneuver is much easier and safer...
    http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficen...rge-zipper.pdf


    Results of the computer simulations show ed the late merge produced a statistically significant increase in throughput volume for only the 3-to-1-lane closure configuration and was beneficial across all factors for this type of closure. For the 2-to-1 and 3-to-2 lane closure configurations, the late merge in creased throughput when the percentage of heavy vehicles was
    large.
    http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main.../pdf/05-r6.pdf
    http://www.edmunds.com/driving-tips/...sidezoomer.htm
    Those quotes don't disagree with me. They say it's safer and easier, not faster.
    The only time it is faster is in a 3-1 merge, which I have never seen here. Or when there's lots of large trucks, possible I guess.
    I'm not saying it's bad, I would love if everyone did it. But only to reduce stress and anger.

    On the topic of merging, I think a PSA is required to let people know that people on freeways do NOT have the right of way over cars entering on a entry ramp. No one has the right of way. My unofficial rule has been if the entering traffic is going the same speed as the freeway traffic, then they have the right of way. If they are going slower, then the freeway traffic has the right of way. Every personal vehicle on the road today can make it to 80kph on all the on ramps that exist to our freeways.
    This is a significant factor as well:

    We reduce the overall length of the backup by up to 50% (40% is common). While this may not be important in rural areas, it is critical in the metro area where the backups affect other interchanges. Therefore, we reduce the congestion problem for the other interchanges.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustauk View Post
    Why doesn't zippering work will in Edmonton? Because people treat a merge into a single lane like a line at movie theatre or bank. Some drivers view people merging in near where two lanes become one as "budding in line". They will actively obstruct drivers, since they "should have waited there turn" and merged at the "back of the line".

    Zippering should be part of driver training; it makes the most sense, but people need to be taught it, or they'll use other examples in their lives when trying to deal with a single lane of traffic.
    Exactly, however most of the ones up in front of you are nice people and they let the 'transgressors' in ahead of you. The thing is, ideally everyone would merge at their relative position in the traffic but not everyone sees the construction or other blockages at the same time so people are bound to become perceived 'transgressors', line jumpers, butters-in, or whatever.

    A few years ago I was driving to Calgary, came over the crest of a hill and saw a right lane blockage miles up front of me and moved over right away. I then ended up sitting in a mile or two mile long line up watching literally hundreds of cars continue on past me and merging up in front of me. I hardly moved forward and my time in the lineup likely doubled or tripled over what would have happened had I just stayed in my original lane and driven the mile or two right up to the lane's barriers.

    In my above instance, there's all kinds of legitimate reasons for those that passed me on the right and gotten in ahead of me: they may have been following trucks, thinking the problem was in my lane, knowing how to properly merge in backed up traffic, etc. In fact, I should have pulled out and done it too but didn't because it felt like an immoral thing to do. That's why we need an education campaign too.


    ~
    Last edited by KC; 24-06-2014 at 01:50 PM. Reason: typos

  21. #21

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    Agreed KC. People butt in especially in expensive vehicles like they own the front of the line. These people would never attempt to cut in front of you in a lineup of people at Tim Hortons or at a movie. Put them behind the wheel of an Audi or BMW and they do it all the time. The other week I was in Toronto and a guy in a Mercedes 560 AMG tried to squeeze past me as I merged our of a left lane that was ending in heavy traffic moving at a crawl. He was driving right beside me and squeezed closer and closer expecting me to yield to him on my left. He was on the shoulder that was disappearing and could not squeeze forward anymore because of the curb. I glared at him as I laid on my horn as his fender was just inches from mine. He finally stopped when his mirror folded back after it hit mine. He rolled down the passenger window and yelled some obscenities that he had the right and I told him he should call a cop.

    He was forced to fall behind me and then I let an 18 wheeler with a 53 ft trailer in from my right and moved into his void and around him. The Mercedes ended up stuck behind the semi for quite some time.

    I think the main problem is all the rubber neckers who act like sheep, some texting while driving in a construction zone, others looking at the accident or construction, anything other than looking ahead. I see it all the time. The guy ahead of you just going slow even past the restriction with the car ahead of him already gone far ahead. You get pass these sloths and a you look in your rear view mirror, all the half asleep drivers are slowly getting up to speed hundreds of meters behind you. When I go through such areas I am focused on what is ahead of me, I don't speed and defensively drive. Once past the narrows I try to get back up to speed ASAP.

    You see in places like when they close one lane of a two lane road for repaving for a kilometer or more. The stream of cars now past the merge point are all in a construction zone with only one lane but the line of traffic is wildly separated. Groups of cars properly separated and then big gaps where some timid or rubber necking driver is going much slower than all the rest, backing up traffic well behind them and affecting the merge area.

    http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/12/the...lass-hands-on/

    Proper merging is important but whether it happens well back or at the pinch point has little effect because the real issue is how much traffic passes at what cycle rate through the narrows. This is the proverbial bottle neck. No more sand can get through the hourglass unless more sand travels through the pinch point. It is true that the longer the pinch point, one slow car creates a ripple effect that lasts longer so merging late has the advantage of shortening the effective length of the pinch point. I always watch for the opening with a slow moving truck, a distracted driver who leaves an opening or a timid driver and fill the gap.

    http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates/200...ay_30_for.html

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/...el-closed.html

    Studies done in the 1960's that were published at the time in Scientific American that were done on the Lincoln Tunnel in NYC of traffic delays and mediation concluded the problems occurred in the tunnel, not in the merge area. That merge was from 4 lanes to 8 toll booths down to two lanes. Studies revealed that a stalled car or sudden stop for even a moment in the tunnel created a ripple effect that worked its way backward and grew larger and longer as drivers were slow to respond to the changes of speed and over reacted and then did not recover. Studies found that if they held cars back momentarily at the tunnel entrance, creating artificial breaks, the ripple effect could be broken and allowed more cars to transit through the tunnel.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 25-06-2014 at 06:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT
    People butt in especially in expensive vehicles like they own the front of the line.
    That's just your own preconceived notion. Do you have any empirical data to back up that claim? I could just as easily claim that jerks in jacked up pickups are the worst offenders. You don't have to own a German car to drive like a jerk.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT
    People butt in especially in expensive vehicles like they own the front of the line.
    That's just your own preconceived notion. Do you have any empirical data to back up that claim? I could just as easily claim that jerks in jacked up pickups are the worst offenders. You don't have to own a German car to drive like a jerk.
    Are not jacked up pickups "expensive vehicles" as well? I am glad we agree.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post

    That's just your own preconceived notion. Do you have any empirical data to back up that claim? I could just as easily claim that jerks in jacked up pickups are the worst offenders. You don't have to own a German car to drive like a jerk.
    I think we found the fancy German car owner guys! Hehe.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Agreed KC. People butt in especially in expensive vehicles like they own the front of the line. These people would never attempt to cut in front of you in a lineup of people at Tim Hortons or at a movie. Put them behind the wheel of an Audi or BMW and they do it all the time. The other week I was in Toronto and a guy in a Mercedes 560 AMG tried to squeeze past me as I merged our of a left lane that was ending in heavy traffic moving at a crawl. He was driving right beside me and squeezed closer and closer expecting me to yield to him on my left. He was on the shoulder that was disappearing and could not squeeze forward anymore because of the curb. I glared at him as I laid on my horn as his fender was just inches from mine. He finally stopped when his mirror folded back after it hit mine. He rolled down the passenger window and yelled some obscenities that he had the right and I told him he should call a cop.

    He was forced to fall behind me and then I let an 18 wheeler with a 53 ft trailer in from my right and moved into his void and around him. The Mercedes ended up stuck behind the semi for quite some time.

    I think the main problem is all the rubber neckers who act like sheep, some texting while driving in a construction zone, others looking at the accident or construction, anything other than looking ahead. I see it all the time. The guy ahead of you just going slow even past the restriction with the car ahead of him already gone far ahead. You get pass these sloths and a you look in your rear view mirror, all the half asleep drivers are slowly getting up to speed hundreds of meters behind you. When I go through such areas I am focused on what is ahead of me, I don't speed and defensively drive. Once past the narrows I try to get back up to speed ASAP.

    You see in places like when they close one lane of a two lane road for repaving for a kilometer or more. The stream of cars now past the merge point are all in a construction zone with only one lane but the line of traffic is wildly separated. Groups of cars properly separated and then big gaps where some timid or rubber necking driver is going much slower than all the rest, backing up traffic well behind them and affecting the merge area.

    http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/12/the...lass-hands-on/

    Proper merging is important but whether it happens well back or at the pinch point has little effect because the real issue is how much traffic passes at what cycle rate through the narrows. This is the proverbial bottle neck. No more sand can get through the hourglass unless more sand travels through the pinch point. It is true that the longer the pinch point, one slow car creates a ripple effect that lasts longer so merging late has the advantage of shortening the effective length of the pinch point. I always watch for the opening with a slow moving truck, a distracted driver who leaves an opening or a timid driver and fill the gap.

    http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates/200...ay_30_for.html

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/...el-closed.html

    Studies done in the 1960's that were published at the time in Scientific American that were done on the Lincoln Tunnel in NYC of traffic delays and mediation concluded the problems occurred in the tunnel, not in the merge area. That merge was from 4 lanes to 8 toll booths down to two lanes. Studies revealed that a stalled car or sudden stop for even a moment in the tunnel created a ripple effect that worked its way backward and grew larger and longer as drivers were slow to respond to the changes of speed and over reacted and then did not recover. Studies found that if they held cars back momentarily at the tunnel entrance, creating artificial breaks, the ripple effect could be broken and allowed more cars to transit through the tunnel.
    I don't see how overall speed is improved but on a first come first served basis the zipper merge seems fairer if everyone does it as no one is pushed back in the line.

    Saskatoon is trying it and I see a number of articles via Google on their experience.

    Do you Zipper merge
    http://www.cbc.ca/edmontonam/episode...-zipper-merge/


    How to 'zip' through summertime road construction - Technology & Science - CBC News
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/ho...tion-1.1340869

  26. #26

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    I always like to let alternate vehicles in before me. Courtesy on the road is important but don't try to take advantage of the situation. And if I let you in, don't be a sloth and delay everyone behind you or be indecisive after I gave you space and flashed my lights and even waved to you to move in and a friendly toot of the horn and still you hum and haw. That drives me nuts. If I let you in, don't be a zipper jam, get going!

    The concept of zipper merging is NOT part of the traffic barrier polices and procedure manual that the COE has printed.
    http://www.edmonton.ca/transportatio...tionSafety.pdf

    The word zipper is not even mentioned and merge is barely mentioned. How can people know how to zipper merge when there is not even a policy for the Transportation Department?

    If the guys installing the barriers also put cones between the two lanes on the approaches with only the intended zipper point left open, this problem would go away.

    In emergency situations like at a traffic accident, often police do little to mitigate traffic tie ups in Edmonton. In the USA I see police taking proactive approaches. Holding back one lane and directing the other to pass through in blocks of 15 or 20 vehicles. Then alternating the lines for the other traffic. I also have seen police in the USA setting up just two comes and directing traffic to pass in two lanes by jogging over, one into the other lane and the second to jog over to the shoulder.

    Like this
    http://trafficsignstore.com/construction.html
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 25-06-2014 at 08:04 AM.
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  27. #27

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    http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/ho...tion-1.1340869

    If you look at their graphic (I know it is only a graphic) but in the "regular merge" the cars are going through more closely spaced and a more constant speed in the thru lane than their "zipper merge" example.

    IMHO, both styles work if people are taught to be courteous and there is proper signage that each car is expected to let in one other car.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 25-06-2014 at 08:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT
    People butt in especially in expensive vehicles like they own the front of the line.
    That's just your own preconceived notion. Do you have any empirical data to back up that claim? I could just as easily claim that jerks in jacked up pickups are the worst offenders. You don't have to own a German car to drive like a jerk.
    Are not jacked up pickups "expensive vehicles" as well? I am glad we agree.
    No, we don't, I was just using that as an example. I've been cut off by plenty of dummies driving 85 Tercels.

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    So you discriminate against 85 Trecels but not not '76 Datsun B210's? LOL

    Ease up.
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    I think the other issue too is enforcement. The police will be quick to jump on speeders (not saying it's acceptable but that's the least of my issues on the road) but I've never seen the police pull anyone over for cutting someone off or for completely ruining the flow of traffic due to a horrible merge.

  31. #31

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    I know all about how we are supposed to do zipper merges and why. Truly, the dynamics is not hard to understand.

    What the zipperists ignore, however, is simple human psychology. Get in line and wait your turn! -- is ultimately the strongest and most morally justified social commandment.

    Those who break it deserve being chopped off at the knee.

    So no, I have no problem with zipperists being viciously cut off as they steam at the end of the lane in which they had sped past everyone else.

    A society in which the social mores are upheld over queasy individualism beats physical dynamics any day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I know all about how we are supposed to do zipper merges and why. Truly, the dynamics is not hard to understand.

    What the zipperists ignore, however, is simple human psychology. Get in line and wait your turn! -- is ultimately the strongest and most morally justified social commandment.

    Those who break it deserve being chopped off at the knee.

    So no, I have no problem with zipperists being viciously cut off as they steam at the end of the lane in which they had sped past everyone else.

    A society in which the social mores are upheld over queasy individualism beats physical dynamics any day.

    Amen brother. Try zipping into a supermarket line or a line @ a restaurant.
    Go ahead, speed pass me... I'll meet you at the next red light.

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarjotG01 View Post
    I think the other issue too is enforcement. The police will be quick to jump on speeders (not saying it's acceptable but that's the least of my issues on the road) but I've never seen the police pull anyone over for cutting someone off or for completely ruining the flow of traffic due to a horrible merge.
    Recently some guy in a fancy 4x4 snuck past the merging line and cut in at the last possible time. When he approached the steel plates on the roadway he slowed down from 50 km and crawled over the plates at 10 or 15 km/h backing up traffic and then slowly accelerated. There must have been a 8 second break in traffic becaue of his antics.

    That type of thing affects the thru-put of all the traffic behind him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry N View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I know all about how we are supposed to do zipper merges and why. Truly, the dynamics is not hard to understand.

    What the zipperists ignore, however, is simple human psychology. Get in line and wait your turn! -- is ultimately the strongest and most morally justified social commandment.

    Those who break it deserve being chopped off at the knee.

    So no, I have no problem with zipperists being viciously cut off as they steam at the end of the lane in which they had sped past everyone else.

    A society in which the social mores are upheld over queasy individualism beats physical dynamics any day.

    Amen brother. Try zipping into a supermarket line or a line @ a restaurant.
    The two lanes should be about the same length so no one is zipping ahead of everyone else that is waiting their turn. So people should drive as close to the barriers as possible before moving over. Moreover, often it's the left lane that is the flow through lane so if it is treated as a passing lane then there should be less traffic in it in the first place so an ending right lane should easily be able to delay moving until much closer to the barricades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    I know all about how we are supposed to do zipper merges and why. Truly, the dynamics is not hard to understand.

    What the zipperists ignore, however, is simple human psychology. Get in line and wait your turn! -- is ultimately the strongest and most morally justified social commandment.

    Those who break it deserve being chopped off at the knee.

    So no, I have no problem with zipperists being viciously cut off as they steam at the end of the lane in which they had sped past everyone else.

    A society in which the social mores are upheld over queasy individualism beats physical dynamics any day.
    The thing about social mores is that they're not innate, they're constructed. While we do have a innate sense of fairness we don't have an innate sense of lining up. Bus stops are a good example. In Edmonton we do the the functional equivalent of a zipper merge when boarding buses while in Montréal, I was surprised to find, people formed long snaking queues at the bus stops. For bus stops I'm not sure which is more efficient but the social behaviour is clearly arbitrary.

    In terms of measurable fairness in traffic zipper merging wins as it doesn't force drivers to try and guess when is the most opportune time to merge that annoys the fewest people in the other lane while minimizing delay. Not zipper merging also inconveniences people not even on the road in question by vastly increasing the length of the congestion.

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  36. #36

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    One problem with zipper merging is that you do not realize often what is ahead. On some roads where you need to get into a lane for an off-ramp or due to construction, their may be only one lane but the adjacent lanes may be still viable for through traffic. Too many people try to pass the line and then try to force their way into line into backed up traffic. They block the lane they want to leave and this creates backups in more lanes and frustration for other drivers who are not taking the off-ramp or are bypassing the obstruction.

    Anyone on Capilano and WGD heading to a hockey game has seen the mess that this creates in all lanes.
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    Actually if you are paying attention to the signs and to the traffic you should always realize what is ahead. They even teach it in the driver's handbook...
    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2034.htm
    ---
    The beauty of zipper merging, or why you should drive ruder
    http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/07/...d-drive-ruder/

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Actually if you are paying attention to the signs and to the traffic you should always realize what is ahead. They even teach it in the driver's handbook...
    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/2034.htm
    ---
    The beauty of zipper merging, or why you should drive ruder
    http://arstechnica.com/cars/2014/07/...d-drive-ruder/
    I do pay attention, it is the other doofuses that don't and clog all the lanes.
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    ^Says Everybody.

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    The province is on board with updated merge signage standards for high-volume (i.e. congested), multi-lane construction sites. The following signs would typically be seen:
    - zipper merge ahead
    - use both lanes
    - alternate merge xx m ahead
    - begin merge
    - merge (in case you missed the other signs?)

    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...ction/DB85.pdf

    It would be great to see similar standards locally.

  41. #41

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    BUMPED
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I think the main problem is all the rubber neckers who act like sheep, some texting while driving in a construction zone, others looking at the accident or construction, anything other than looking ahead. I see it all the time. The guy ahead of you just going slow even past the restriction with the car ahead of him already gone far ahead. You get pass these sloths and a you look in your rear view mirror, all the half asleep drivers are slowly getting up to speed hundreds of meters behind you. When I go through such areas I am focused on what is ahead of me, I don't speed and defensively drive. Once past the narrows I try to get back up to speed ASAP.

    You see in places like when they close one lane of a two lane road for repaving for a kilometer or more. The stream of cars now past the merge point are all in a construction zone with only one lane but the line of traffic is wildly separated. Groups of cars properly separated and then big gaps where some timid or rubber necking driver is going much slower than all the rest, backing up traffic well behind them and affecting the merge area.
    Zipper merging IMHO will make only a minor change. I see the real backup is caused by slow drivers in the narrowed section or where the road widens and traffic is supposed to get back up to speed.
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    Yeah, I've certainly been stuck in traffic doing 20-30 km/h after merging when they should be doing 50 or 60 km/h past the construction / accident.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spill View Post
    The province is on board with updated merge signage standards for high-volume (i.e. congested), multi-lane construction sites. The following signs would typically be seen:
    - zipper merge ahead
    - use both lanes
    - alternate merge xx m ahead
    - begin merge
    - merge (in case you missed the other signs?)

    http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...ction/DB85.pdf

    It would be great to see similar standards locally.

    I see this as a signage problem. The example on the transportation web site shows lane end signs with the word merge on another sign underneath.

    A lane ending is not the same as a merge. The driver in the lane that ends must yield the right of way to drivers in the lane that is not ending. If you are supposed to merge (driver that is further ahead has the right of way) then they should simply use a merge sign.
    Last edited by pietschu; 17-06-2015 at 09:22 AM.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Yeah, I've certainly been stuck in traffic doing 20-30 km/h after merging when they should be doing 50 or 60 km/h past the construction / accident.

    All it takes is one rubber necker or texter. Police should monitor slow pokes and ticket either cases for distracted driving.
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    Minnesotans aren't "getting" the zipper merge, state trying to educate drivers. I love the German name for it reißverschlusssystem
    https://www.wired.com/2016/06/nice-m...-zipper-merge/

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    Quote Originally Posted by pietschu View Post
    A lane ending is not the same as a merge. The driver in the lane that ends must yield the right of way to drivers in the lane that is not ending. If you are supposed to merge (driver that is further ahead has the right of way) then they should simply use a merge sign.
    There you have the solution. End each lane with a barricade and leave a gap straddling the line between lanes. Solid lane separators leading up to the choke point would also be helpful.

    However, the biggest obstacle to the zipper merge is the traffic report on the radio telling drivers which lane they should use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    Minnesotans aren't "getting" the zipper merge, state trying to educate drivers. I love the German name for it reißverschlusssystem
    https://www.wired.com/2016/06/nice-m...-zipper-merge/
    Maybe that could be put on that scoreboard thing over the Whitemud at Rainbow Valley bridge

  48. #48

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    Heard on the radio today that the AMA is promoting zipper merging now

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Heard on the radio today that the AMA is promoting zipper merging now
    Is that where you zip 2 sleeping bags together to share with someone? 'cause it's damn cold enough to want to!
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Heard on the radio today that the AMA is promoting zipper merging now
    Heh, what took them so long?
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    I don't know if AB Transportation follows this, but they created this design bulletin for signage that they should follow that would help.




    https://www.transportation.alberta.c...ction/DB85.pdf




    Basically, merge near the end, otherwise stay in your lane. If there is a designated 'merge zone' then it's clear when to zipper up.

  52. #52

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    Just tell people that merging too early is a crazy practice and everyone should notice how people simply drive past them and get let in, in front of them.

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    Both Global News and Global Edmonton posted this to facebook today.

    The comments were cringe inducing.


    Zipper merge is THE way to go tho.

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    Zippering requires a level of courtesy, something elusive on our roads unfortunately.
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  55. #55

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    Promoting zipper merging is a small thing can can go a long way to instilling some of that courtesy into our drivers. Maybe after that we can get people to stop at stop signs and red lights instead of blowing through or making dangerous turns at speed into the far lane. Maybe.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  56. #56

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    Less backed up traffic can mean fewer blocked and gridlocked intersections upstream of the merge.

    Zipper Merge
    “MnDOT | Zipper Merge Traffic Camera Instructional
    Minnesota Department of Transportation 344,876 views
    SUBSCRIBE1.7K
    48494
    Published on May 12, 2011Most Minnesota motorists start to merge in construction zones as soon as they see warning signs and learn which lane ahead is closed. This driving behavior, called "early merge" can lead to dangerous lane switching, inconsistent driving speeds that cause crashes, long back-ups that block interchanges, and road rage.

    Research shows, however, that these dangers decrease and traffic moves more smoothly when motorists use both lanes until reaching the defined merge area and then alternate in "zipper" fashion into the open lane.
    (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/zippermerge/)”

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcPby7...ature=youtu.be




    .

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    Many drivers still reluctant to zipper merge, AMA says

    Study finds zipper merge technique decreases traffic congestion

    Nearly a year and a half after the Alberta Motor Association campaigned for drivers to travel to the front of an obstructed lane and "zipper merge," many in Edmonton are not getting the message.

    Gary Roufosse used to commute to work from his Edmonton home north on 142nd Street toward Anthony Henday Drive, but he decided to find another route after construction obstructed one of the lanes and forced drivers to merge. He was frustrated by drivers who don't let others merge into the lane.

    "I avoid that road completely because it's very, very bad there," Roufosse said. "People are basically on your bumper and they don't know how to zipper. They don't understand that approach."
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-ama-1.4721712

  58. #58

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    Many of our congestion issues could be solved if people left room to merge, and knew how to properly merge, construction zones or not. I'm always baffled when I return to Edmonton after being away at how bad we are at merging.

  59. #59

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    Road construction sites have a lot of signs, but I've never seen the signs instructing to late zipper merge.

  60. #60

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    I was on the transcanada and coming to a construction zone at a bridge underpass, everyone was doing a near perfect zipper merging. The problem that stalled traffic was past the construction zone where traffic was merging into the highway, some drivers merged and others allowed them to merge at a ridiculously slow pace and then did not accelerate back to highway speeds even a kilometer afterwards.

    Slow traffic would fill the left passing lane and make a rolling roadblock where two cars abreast, going 60-70 km/hr while traffic ahead of them were hundreds of meters further down the road. Therefore only so many cars could pass that point which ripples traffic jams back to the original construction zone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by K364 View Post
    Road construction sites have a lot of signs, but I've never seen the signs instructing to late zipper merge.
    Ya, I rarely see this sign:

    A City of Edmonton sign warns drivers of an upcoming "zipper merge" along Groat Road. (Travis McEwan/CBC)

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    The problem is driver attitude. Why be courteous to rude people?

    from the CBC article:
    Despite this message, Edmonton commuter Gunter Alt isn't convinced he should let in drivers who travel to the front of an empty obstructed lane when they had opportunities to merge in earlier.

    "I hate this when people drive right up to the end and they let them in," Alt said. "You wait in line for two minutes or so, and they just let them in. I wouldn't let them in."

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by K364 View Post
    Road construction sites have a lot of signs, but I've never seen the signs instructing to late zipper merge.
    Ya, I rarely see this sign:

    A City of Edmonton sign warns drivers of an upcoming "zipper merge" along Groat Road. (Travis McEwan/CBC)
    Zipper heads will think that does not apply to them...
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  64. #64

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    The wrong lane mergers I don't let in are the ones that are speeding right up to a construction zone, even through the speed restriction area, so that they can zip right in front of you and slam the breaks. That's a dick move you see EVERY drive. Theres a courteous place and method to merge. It isn't by treating a construction zone like its an indy pit stop and just flying into the pits. When does those arseholes ever get tickets for that? You see it all the time. Drive Whitemud East any day you are guaranteed to see it towards the 66st LRT construction area.

    That's the trouble with signs like the above. It encourages last minute merge instead of merging when it is easy and courteous to do so.

    To the dick driver the sign says: "I've got an 800m dash to floor this thing and see how many cars I can jump and speed reduction signs I can completely ignore and then aggressively cut in because I'm special." Unfortunately that's the real world result. Somebody doing that is DANGEROUS to any workers or flag people in the area who occasionally have to get vehicles to stop altogether to let heavy equipment through.

    Designating the actual lane closing spot as the zipper merge spot confounds all sense of first come first served lining up that our society generally believes in.
    Last edited by Replacement; 26-06-2018 at 03:10 PM.
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    I have no problem to zipper merge and let others merge as long as everyone is being courteous. When I see construction ahead and queue has formed I merge into to line as soon as possible even if there are 5 or more cars in the queue. I get really annoyed though when I see some drivers see the line but will speed to just in front of the road block and jump the queue in front of sometimes dozen plus vehicles. If it were a pedestrian line up to go into the movies or a car queue to get into parking lot no one would dare jump the line so blatantly.

  66. #66

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    ^Being in a box of steel does appear to give drivers a sense of boldness and lack of politeness that would be more typical at other times. Everything from road rage to speeding to disobeying rules, to driving dangerously indicates this. But driving is always one life altering moment from tragedy which changes everything. Drivers are of course not invincible. The simple act of driving is the most dangerous thing you do.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  67. #67

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    If a dozen cars have lined up, it would seem that they are just ignoring the ‘zipper merge ahead’ signage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    I have no problem to zipper merge and let others merge as long as everyone is being courteous. When I see construction ahead and queue has formed I merge into to line as soon as possible even if there are 5 or more cars in the queue. I get really annoyed though when I see some drivers see the line but will speed to just in front of the road block and jump the queue in front of sometimes dozen plus vehicles. If it were a pedestrian line up to go into the movies or a car queue to get into parking lot no one would dare jump the line so blatantly.
    You're describing the opposite of zipper merge. Don't merge early. Use both lanes till the very end. That's what zipper merge means.

  69. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    I have no problem to zipper merge and let others merge as long as everyone is being courteous. When I see construction ahead and queue has formed I merge into to line as soon as possible even if there are 5 or more cars in the queue. I get really annoyed though when I see some drivers see the line but will speed to just in front of the road block and jump the queue in front of sometimes dozen plus vehicles. If it were a pedestrian line up to go into the movies or a car queue to get into parking lot no one would dare jump the line so blatantly.
    You're describing the opposite of zipper merge. Don't merge early. Use both lanes till the very end. That's what zipper merge means.
    Sure that's what it means. But it doesn't work in every jurisdiction. It depends on adherence, driving civility, driving skill, maturity, and also an altered concept that defies our general concept of (first come first served) which is indelibly written in our society and in our actions.


    We know the rule, we're heard the theoretical construct that zipper is more effective as a traffic moving device. But it isn't more effective for those that have already orderly, and safely merged prior to the zipper. Now you may state that those people that did so did not adhere to the sign directive, fine. But I've already denoted the most dangerous thing being that people speed up to the zipper zone, illegally, dangerously, and ignoring the speed signs so that they can cut in.

    Again drive on Whitemud East and you see this every hour of every day. if they put an overhead camera in the closing lane they would be able to give out hundreds of tickets a day to those speeding approaching the zipper, and construction area.



    So that this is a case of difference between how a device would theoretically be used and how zipper merging is actually used here.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    If a dozen cars have lined up, it would seem that they are just ignoring the ‘zipper merge ahead’ signage.
    I nearly got rear ended recently for using the closing lane approaching the zipper merge by some ahole doing the kamikaze fly into the contruction zone and zipper merge. These people think the 50km slow down signs are only for the people in the continuing lane...

    The closing lane has become the express traffic lane, the speed lane, its inane. I see it every time on the commute. I encourage anybody to try it and see if its not the case. The majority of traffic in the closing lane is speeding to merge...in front of a construction zone. Its reprehensible, but regular.

    Again conceptually zipper can work. But applied here how well is it working, how safely is it working?

    Really a lot of drivers are fearful of being in the closing lane for a number of reasons. That's why they safely and courteously merge earlier. By doing so you avoid;

    1) Risk of some speeding dangerous driver rear ending you in the closing lane.

    2) Road rage from jumping conceived cue at zipper point

    3)Being barred from entry and not allowed in by other drivers at zipper point.


    Most people just don't want the hassle, danger, and reactions to zipping at lane closure.
    Last edited by Replacement; 27-06-2018 at 11:51 AM.
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  71. #71

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    I've seen signs at US road sites that specifically say to "merge late" (or somesuch) with a diagram showing both lanes of traffic flowing right up to the barrier with the first car of the merging lane entering the merged lane. Much better than "zipper merge" jargon.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    I have no problem to zipper merge and let others merge as long as everyone is being courteous. When I see construction ahead and queue has formed I merge into to line as soon as possible even if there are 5 or more cars in the queue. I get really annoyed though when I see some drivers see the line but will speed to just in front of the road block and jump the queue in front of sometimes dozen plus vehicles. If it were a pedestrian line up to go into the movies or a car queue to get into parking lot no one would dare jump the line so blatantly.
    You're describing the opposite of zipper merge. Don't merge early. Use both lanes till the very end. That's what zipper merge means.
    Sure that's what it means. But it doesn't work in every jurisdiction. It depends on adherence, driving civility, driving skill, maturity, and also an altered concept that defies our general concept of (first come first served) which is indelibly written in our society and in our actions.


    We know the rule, we're heard the theoretical construct that zipper is more effective as a traffic moving device. But it isn't more effective for those that have already orderly, and safely merged prior to the zipper. Now you may state that those people that did so did not adhere to the sign directive, fine. But I've already denoted the most dangerous thing being that people speed up to the zipper zone, illegally, dangerously, and ignoring the speed signs so that they can cut in.

    Again drive on Whitemud East and you see this every hour of every day. if they put an overhead camera in the closing lane they would be able to give out hundreds of tickets a day to those speeding approaching the zipper, and construction area.



    So that this is a case of difference between how a device would theoretically be used and how zipper merging is actually used here.
    If people didn't merge early, no one would be able to speed along in the lane that's ending. Traffic in both lanes would flow at the same speed.

    You can't use the example of people not doing it as an indication that it doesn't work here. It works if you do it, it doesn't work if you don't do it. And if half the people don't do it, then it's going to function less efficiently for those that merge early, and more efficiently for those that merge late.

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by North Guy66 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by K364 View Post
    Road construction sites have a lot of signs, but I've never seen the signs instructing to late zipper merge.
    Ya, I rarely see this sign:

    A City of Edmonton sign warns drivers of an upcoming "zipper merge" along Groat Road. (Travis McEwan/CBC)

    The part I find odd about this zipper merge is that it's no different that before construction, and not really a zipper merge at all. One lane goes to River valley road, and the other carries across the bridge.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The wrong lane mergers I don't let in are the ones that are speeding right up to a construction zone, even through the speed restriction area, so that they can zip right in front of you and slam the breaks. That's a dick move you see EVERY drive. Theres a courteous place and method to merge. It isn't by treating a construction zone like its an indy pit stop and just flying into the pits. When does those arseholes ever get tickets for that?
    What ticket do you want to get for freeing up congestion? It's hard-asses like yourself that waste the lane and get upset when someone else uses the lane. Yes, you can merge 10 km back, but why? Use both lanes right up to the merge point and everyone flows through faster. With people randomly merging in at many points behind the actual point, you are causing unpredicatablilty and causing people to brake. Leave space between you and the next vehicle, let people merge at the merge point, and stop trying to be a traffic-cop. Traffic through the single lane and up to it will flow much much better if people did this. You can't get upset with people who use the lane, as you are causing more of problem forcing an unexpected merge earlier.

  75. #75

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    If you want traffic to zipper merge then you have to set it up correctly.

    In the two lanes before construction, run a line of cones between the two lanes. Then only make a break in the last 30 meters or so before the one lane finishes with a big sign to zipper merge with a graphic



    Or this version

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The wrong lane mergers I don't let in are the ones that are speeding right up to a construction zone, even through the speed restriction area, so that they can zip right in front of you and slam the breaks. That's a dick move you see EVERY drive. Theres a courteous place and method to merge. It isn't by treating a construction zone like its an indy pit stop and just flying into the pits. When does those arseholes ever get tickets for that?
    What ticket do you want to get for freeing up congestion? It's hard-asses like yourself that waste the lane and get upset when someone else uses the lane. Yes, you can merge 10 km back, but why? Use both lanes right up to the merge point and everyone flows through faster. With people randomly merging in at many points behind the actual point, you are causing unpredicatablilty and causing people to brake. Leave space between you and the next vehicle, let people merge at the merge point, and stop trying to be a traffic-cop. Traffic through the single lane and up to it will flow much much better if people did this. You can't get upset with people who use the lane, as you are causing more of problem forcing an unexpected merge earlier.
    The same number of cars are going to go through the choke point if it is a zipper merge or not. Zipper merges reduce the length of the backlog.

  77. #77

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    Correct and not the total number of cars in the queue.

    It is all about the number of cars passing through the choke point. One distracted or timid driver leaving a 5 or 10 second gap ahead of them is just reducing the flow behind him/her.
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  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    The wrong lane mergers I don't let in are the ones that are speeding right up to a construction zone, even through the speed restriction area, so that they can zip right in front of you and slam the breaks. That's a dick move you see EVERY drive. Theres a courteous place and method to merge. It isn't by treating a construction zone like its an indy pit stop and just flying into the pits. When does those arseholes ever get tickets for that?
    What ticket do you want to get for freeing up congestion? It's hard-asses like yourself that waste the lane and get upset when someone else uses the lane. Yes, you can merge 10 km back, but why? Use both lanes right up to the merge point and everyone flows through faster. With people randomly merging in at many points behind the actual point, you are causing unpredicatablilty and causing people to brake. Leave space between you and the next vehicle, let people merge at the merge point, and stop trying to be a traffic-cop. Traffic through the single lane and up to it will flow much much better if people did this. You can't get upset with people who use the lane, as you are causing more of problem forcing an unexpected merge earlier.
    The ticket for speeding and going in excess of the posted 50K construction zone. Which is what most of the zippers are doing. As stated people are using that as an express lane and driving dangerously (fast) in that zone.


    I'm not causing somebody to break, don't be pedantic and presumptuous. I'm in the continuing lane because its the safest, less chaotic, and courteous place to be having pre knowledge of the closed lane ahead. In the case of the Whitemud closure I try to be on the right hand through lane(two lanes through) so as not to be cut off by those that zip in on the left from that closed lane. So no, I'm not blocking them either.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  79. #79

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    Say the left hand was closed ahead. If enough signs were always placed out from blockage, and everyone took ‘their place’ in the right hand lane then the old way would work. However it has never worked that way in reality.

    More often if you’d move or stay to the right, the lane backs up further and further and well beyond signage (especially on highways like the QEII) and unaware go past the end of a lineup, or people pull onto the road mid line up, etc

    The end result is that you’d stay near the end of the lineup as large numbers of left lane drivers passed you and were let in ahead of you and you almost felt that your progress had ground to a halt.

    Instead, upon seeing a blockage ahead simple move into the less occupied lane lane and try to not to merge until the last possible point. That creates a well balanced consistent, predictable flow of everyone yielding to one other vehicle. And it then it becomes a first come second served system which is better than first come one hundredth served system.
    Last edited by KC; 27-06-2018 at 02:35 PM.

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    A DIY Instructional video...

    http://youtu.be/vLVMW8KnfBE

    It makes a good point - merge when safe and early if the traffic is flowing fast. (i.e. a lineup hasn't formed.) Otherwise, as they said (EMPHASIS added): "RESIST THE URGE TO MERGE EARLY."
    Above, I was only thinking of those times when traffic has obviously slowed to a crawl in front of you.
    bumping this down thread

  81. #81
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    I went through 2 construction zones this am....and yes, no one there was even remotely trying the zipper merge...sigh
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  82. #82
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    Great in theory, but drivers in Edmonton do not co-operate. That is why we see so many red light left turns, or 40 km/h speed limits in residential neighbourhoods.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  83. #83

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    In Edmonton, nimrods take 4 parking places to park their shiny 4x4. Trusting drivers to follow rules and be courteous is beyond hope.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    In Edmonton, nimrods take 4 parking places to park their shiny 4x4. Trusting drivers to follow rules and be courteous is beyond hope.
    My Honda CR-V only took three!

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Great in theory, but drivers in Edmonton do not co-operate. That is why we see so many red light left turns, or 40 km/h speed limits in residential neighbourhoods.
    The left turn in some locations is now 4 cars in a row running the amber to make the left turn. The last two very clearly on red. This somehow is happening very frequently now. Sometimes its 5. Its like they figure if we form a train of left turn vehicles we can just keep going. Screw anybody with a green light. The worst thing is they're not even looking. They just assume cars on green will stop for their avarice.

    For 40yrs of driving here I just expect the unexpected.


    Expecting anything involving courtesy to work here is expecting too much. This is jackarse city as far as driving is concerned. Thousands of drivers assuming they own the roads and everybody else will abide..
    Last edited by Replacement; 27-06-2018 at 11:03 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  86. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    In Edmonton, nimrods take 4 parking places to park their shiny 4x4. Trusting drivers to follow rules and be courteous is beyond hope.
    My Honda CR-V only took three!
    You're supposed to park parallel to, and within the stall lines not perpendicular to...


    Albeit that is creative.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    Great in theory, but drivers in Edmonton do not co-operate. That is why we see so many red light left turns, or 40 km/h speed limits in residential neighbourhoods.
    The left turn in some locations is now 4 cars in a row running the amber to make the left turn. The last two very clearly on red. This somehow is happening very frequently now. Sometimes its 5. Its like they figure if we form a train of left turn vehicles we can just keep going. Screw anybody with a green light. The worst thing is they're not even looking. They just assume cars on green will stop for their avarice.

    For 40yrs of driving here I just expect the unexpected.


    Expecting anything involving courtesy to work here is expecting too much. This is jackarse city as far as driving is concerned. Thousands of drivers assuming they own the roads and everybody else will abide..

    "Honesty officer, isn't it my right to turn left as the light turns red because I got an interesting email a friend sent me while driving, with a video of two cute puppies in cowboy costumes that look like they are square dancing. I was watching the video that so funny officer and I could not hear your siren because I have these great new ear buds on that play so loud that I could not hear anything but the funny dance music. Aren't the puppies cute? Don't worry, I am OK, the airbags went off when I hit your patrol car and my BMW is really my dad's and he leases it and we have that accident insurance that you hear on TV that forgives you if you have an accident. It is only my third accident this year so far so you can forgive me too, right officer?"

    "BTW, I hope this won't take long because I am going to be late for my hot yoga class...."
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    In Edmonton, nimrods take 4 parking places to park their shiny 4x4. Trusting drivers to follow rules and be courteous is beyond hope.
    My Honda CR-V only took three!
    You're supposed to park parallel to, and within the stall lines not perpendicular to...


    Albeit that is creative.
    If you have a Mercedes, you can take 5


    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  89. #89

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    We complain of jackasery, but in another post, we almost brag how we purposely don't let people zipper merge in front of us... odd. Maybe look in the mirror and realize we are all part of the problem, instead of looking to blame others. If you don't let people merge in front of you, you are as much as part of the problem as the 'jackasses' that use up the empty lane that should be used for zipper merging.
    Last edited by Medwards; 28-06-2018 at 09:23 AM.

  90. #90
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    I recently did a zipper merge at a construction zone on my motorcycle. I was almost pushed into the construction pylons lol. Canadian drivers in general are out for blood usually.
    When did punk rock become so safe? When did the scene become a joke?
    The kids who used to live for beer and speed, now want their fries and coke.

  91. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    We complain of jackasery, but in another post, we almost brag how we purposely don't let people zipper merge in front of us... odd. Maybe look in the mirror and realize we are all part of the problem, instead of looking to blame others. If you don't let people merge in front of you, you are as much as part of the problem as the 'jackasses' that use up the empty lane that should be used for zipper merging.
    Its understood, acknowledged. I get what you and others are saying. As with any having discussion on something like this does provide food for thought. ftr I don't prevent people from zipping in. My primitive brain just wants to if they are speeding into that zip spot. I obviously can't prevent it as that would require me speeding too. Like I said in a two lane throughput I would rather just be in the lane that doesn't involve zipper merging. That sometimes being reasonably fast moving lane anyway.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  92. #92
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    I had a situation yesterday where everybody was zipper merging, as is now advertised as the new normal, where a lane was ending due to a construction zone. I thought this was great, and just kept motoring along right behind the car in front of me thinking I'd let in the person at the front of the line when I got there. But then someone wanted to change lanes about 5 vehicles back from the front of the line.

    So my question is, should I have then boxed that guy out as he's not following the zipper merge protocol? Or should I have let him in and also let in the person at the front of the line when I got there?

    Therein lies the problem. We can say it's one way until we're blue in the face, but if only half of the people follow that then we're no better off.

  93. #93

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    I wish people would stop promoting the zipper merge. I like being the only one who speeds to the front of the line in the unused lane. I can pass a lot of cars that way.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    The part I find odd about this zipper merge is that it's no different that before construction, and not really a zipper merge at all. One lane goes to River valley road, and the other carries across the bridge.
    I was going to make the same comment. Literally nothing has changed with the Southbound traffic lanes/flow/pattern other than some lane narrowing. Yet the city throws up a bunch of signs about zipper merges all of the sudden. Huh?

  95. #95

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    There was another thread where I had commented on zipper merging...

    The issue is that it's not being PAINTED properly! And I literally mean the painted lines on the road. Living in Europe, I came across many zipper merges, but BOTH lanes merge together into one lane instead of here where one lane ends. THIS is the problem. People who changed lanes early don't want to give up their spot in the lane to those who zipped past them in the ending lane.

    This picture says it all:


    This removes the thought that someone is trying to get in ahead of you in "your lane", because both lanes end. And it works very very well and is very smooth.

    But don't picture the lanes suddenly narrowing very quickly like in the sign above, it's a gradual narrowing that give you time to get lined up, like this highway sign in New Zealand:



    If the cities/provinces would just do it like this, LOGICALLY, then people would adapt much easier, and it would completely remove the idea that you need to race ahead in the lane that's ending, or that someone is doing that in order to get in front of you, because BOTH lanes merge vs the current idea of one lane continues and the other one ends.

    You won't change how people behave with the current setup. So instead, change the painted lines. It's much easier!

  96. #96

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    Good point. All we have to do now is change a century of tradition.

  97. #97
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    I was recently headed north on Highway 2A towards Red Deer from Penhold. Just before Red Deer is the Gaetz/QEII interchange construction. The right lane up ahead was closed. There is actually signs telling drivers to 'maintain 2 lanes' and merge at the merge point. Seemed to help quite a bit. Everyone around me zippered.
    When did punk rock become so safe? When did the scene become a joke?
    The kids who used to live for beer and speed, now want their fries and coke.

  98. #98
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    ^ Yeah, something happens mentally at Edmonton's city limit.
    Nisi Dominus Frustra

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by howie View Post
    ^ Yeah, something happens mentally at Edmonton's city limit.
    Actually, the closer you get to St. Albert. LOL
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  100. #100

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    Edmonton's city limit has nothing to do with it. It's signage vs no signage.

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