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Thread: Time to do away with separate schools?

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    Default Time to do away with separate schools?

    What exactly is separate school education, and what does it mean for Albertans?
    http://changenowforgood.ca/exactly-s...ean-albertans/

    Roman Catholic separate schools are not simply “public schools by another name”. They represent a “State-Church” connection that favours one denomination in a way that is denied to every other denomination. One question that needs to be asked is whether favouring one denomination is favouring one too many. Another question that needs to be asked is whether State sponsored separate schools are consistent with our expectations and aspirations for Alberta at the beginning of the 21st century.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Yup. It's so wasteful to build a parallel, duplicated school system.
    Also, this should be good. I'm gonna grab the popcorn.
    $2.00 $2.25 $2.50 $2.75 $2.85 $3.00 $3.20 $3.25

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    I redirect all my school taxes to the separate system, for both houses

    I am not catholic nor do I support the separate system. but until the EPSB stops gutting inner city neighborhoods they won't get a dime of my money
    Parkdale

  4. #4

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    I went to a Catholic school but over the decades, the RC influence has diminished greatly. I am not Catholic anymore. It is surprising how many students are not Catholic and have never gone to a church. Many parents choose the Separate School system for a variety of reasons from: location, better programs, disgruntlement with public schools, etc.

    The Public Schools now offer a Christian program to compete with Separate Schools called Logos https://www.epsb.ca/programs/faith-b...ogoschristian/

    It shows that competition is a good thing even within schools. If the Separate Schools were not being competitive or offering a poor education, they would wither and die on their own. They haven't, so why do away with something taxpayers are willing to support with their tax dollars and their own kids education?
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    Maybe the competition is good. We can remove the religion from it and the competition remains the same.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Then you will have to remove religion from the Public Schools as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    I redirect all my school taxes to the separate system, for both houses

    I am not catholic nor do I support the separate system. but until the EPSB stops gutting inner city neighborhoods they won't get a dime of my money
    What is "gutting" - closing schools?
    Does the Catholic system do better in the inner city?
    I think I will do the same due to Victoria becoming an exclusive school.

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    ^ Yes.. closing schools.

    In Parkdale, the public school was driven to failure by the policies set forth by the EPSB

    The cathiolic school, St. Alphonsus, has thrived.

    So obviosuly the EPSB is doing something wrong in these central schools
    Parkdale

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by workworkwork View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    I redirect all my school taxes to the separate system, for both houses

    I am not catholic nor do I support the separate system. but until the EPSB stops gutting inner city neighborhoods they won't get a dime of my money
    What is "gutting" - closing schools?
    Does the Catholic system do better in the inner city?
    I think I will do the same due to Victoria becoming an exclusive school.
    An exclusive school? In what way is Victoria exclusive? It has one of the greatest demands for enrollment and they cannot accept everyone. When my daughter went there a few years ago, many of the students going there were not even from Edmonton but came from St. Albert, Sherwood Park, Spruce Grove and even Beaumont.

    That is one inner city schools that is thriving. It is a shame IMHO that the LRT line does not stop for this high transit demand location.
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    I attended a small town Catholic school but ceased to be a practicing Catholic once I went out on my own. My Grade 12 graduating class was about 26 people; the public school had like 300 grads. While the smaller class sizes had their advantages, if I were to relive that life I'd have gone to the public school.

    Earlier this year, my alma mater had like 12 grads to the usual 300 public school grads. I've noticed similar grad numbers in other small towns throughout Alberta, even in the Bible belt between Edmonton and Calgary. So I wonder if the separate system is slowing dying out.

    The other issue I have with separate schools - why Catholic? Why not a separate taxpayer-funded school system for the United Church? for the Anglican Church? For Baptists? How about for Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc?
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 15-12-2014 at 11:05 AM.
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    ^^ The LRT will stop a couple of blocks from Victoria school (if the delays ever end). Not a long walk for the average student.

    I also find the duplication wasteful, and I have issues with treating one particular religious program much differently from the rest, so I support merging the school boards. As for EPSB's rabid closing of inner city schools, while it certainly is a big problem, it is a governance issue, not a structural issue.

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    I'm an atheist, but I also believe in a free market, and think competition is a good thing. Its not wasteful or duplicative that I can buy a coke or a pepsi, or an Android or IOS. They push each other to be better. While I wouldn't send my children to a Catholic school, I think its fine that people have that choice. Ideally, there would be even more choices, with privately run schools getting the same funding per capita that public schools get.

  13. #13

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    Time? I attended Catholic School system until post secondary. Starting in 67.

    imho it was time then. None of the kids on the block could understand, follow, or want the imposed jurisdiction that caused some of us to trot out to Public, and Separate, schools. Which we best recognized as "Some sneeches have stars on bellies and some don't."

    Being preschool that was our determination. It was a laughable and unnecessary segregation.
    None of our families were different, none of them behaved differently, there was no discernible reason for the great division. No reason for the perpetuation of age oid polarization.

    Preschoolers recognized the distinct and arbitrary line in the sand on this. With this being so non apparent that we had to ask our parents and each other which schools we would end up going to and how sublimely silly that all seemed in non secular neighborhoods in non secular life.

    Wisdom apparently being lost with age..
    Last edited by Replacement; 15-12-2014 at 11:02 AM.
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    It's a good idea, but the separate catholic school system is integral in to Alberta's acceptance in to confederation. I don't know what would be required, constitutional amendment? Would nixing the separate board force Alberta out of confederation?

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    I'm quite sure that Alberta's stance in Confederation would remain unchanged. I don't see Canada kicking Alberta out.

    Has anyone ever put together a true pro/con list?
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    In certain neighbourhoods it would make sense to close 1/2 and retain 1 strong combined school to serve the community.
    www.decl.org

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    ^ School boards also need to realize that there are options other than closure for schools that aren't packed full of students. Renting surplus classrooms to day care and after school care programs works well.

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    Hmmm.. pros and cons.

    Pro:
    -There is already an established system, and it would take resources that we don't have to dismantle it.

    Con:
    - Having religious education in a secular society. (I don't care if some non-Catholic children go there. This is further argument against having the schools. Keep religion at home.)
    - Silo effect dividing our education system's management.
    - Duplication of resources.
    - Inevitable labour issues that are starting to strike other places (firing/discriminating against gay people, women who get pregnant outside marriage etc. It happens everywhere else, and getting lawsuits here is an inevitable eventuality. Also see con point 1 about this.)


    I say get rid of them. We will probably save more in the long run, and we can end this ridiculous infringement of religion on the state. I could not care less about the history behind it. We also have a history of eugenics and residential schools in Alberta, and I don't see anyone advocating a return to that.

  19. #19

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    I would say:

    Pros:

    - it gives parents more choice where to send their kids
    - it gives teachers more choice where to work
    - it provides competition with the other school system, raising everyones game. As a parent I liked that the separate school system offered different inovative programs I could consider. Why would they bother if there was no choice?
    - there is no evidence that the Catholic system is more expensive. If anything, experience tells us that the Civil service gets less competitive / more expensive if there is no competition.

    Cons:
    - its a religious education I wouldn't want for my kids, but then, that's choice.
    Last edited by moahunter; 15-12-2014 at 02:11 PM.

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    ^ The first "pro" is definitely not a pro. That is a con. Why should parents be sending their children to a publicly funded school that teaches religious education? They can send their children to PRIVATE school if they want something special. I don't want to fund the church in any way, whether it is into the pope's front pocket or into a catholic school.

    The second one, same argument. The teachers should have a job regardless (they would be wrapped into the public system if we dismantled the religious). If they don't want that, they can go to a private school.

    Third, it provides zero competition. This is a single-payer system with the same outcomes (diploma testing for university admission). The only difference is that in one of the two, the taxpayer is paying for the pope's special schools.

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    re: teacher's choice between public and separate:
    IIRC teachers have to be practicing Catholics in order to teach at a separate school. I know one of them couldn't get teaching jobs at her local Catholic school while she was living with her boyfriend (shacking up out of wedlock is a sin), but once she was married then they started calling her.
    Last edited by Sonic Death Monkey; 15-12-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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    ^ Ridiculous that the public is funding a medieval organization that is discriminatory against women. If anyone wants to subject themselves to discrimination, they can do it in a private school thank you very much. I don't want to be funding that garbage out of my government.

    What are your bets that this would have been ignored if it was a man? I give it 100% odds.

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    Many people don't want to be funding a lot of crap that you or I do want to see funded. It is a pretty weak argument to make. I've seen several instances where parents considered moa's first pro as just that.

  24. #24

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    Many parents send their troubled kids to Catholic schools, Christian schools and even Vimy Ridge with its military program in hopes that they can straighten out their unmanagable and disrespectful problem children. They literally become a dumping ground.

    It is not a solution but it shows that parents need choices and more help than what they find within the public system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Many parents send their troubled kids to Catholic schools, Christian schools and even Vimy Ridge with its military program in hopes that they can straighten out their unmanagable and disrespectful problem children. They literally become a dumping ground.

    It is not a solution but it shows that parents need choices and more help than what they find within the public system.
    Its an interesting comment because in the Separate School system I often felt I was exposed to some of the worst kids in the neighborhood all being in the Separate stream.

    I'll add that Separate Schools seem to have more streams and per student funding for problem children or those with diagnoses that are associated with problematic behaviors. Which can add to the dumping ground effect.

    Separate school systems have also lacked from time to time the jurisdiction to impose appropriate sanction for specific behaviors. I can go into shocking detail here re: what I've seen go on largely without consequence.

    Theres often a permissive, molly coddling, forgiveness principle at work in Separate Schools. (to a fault imo) combined with a lack of wanting external forces such as Police involvement in play.

    Thus, behavioral problems that seemed typical and ongoing in a Separate school environment seemed almost unheard of in the Public school sphere.
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  26. #26

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    I guess it goes both ways. Parents desperately trying to find a solution for their problem kids or their deficient parenting skills and inconsistent behavior management. Dump them in any school that will "fix" their kids.

    For a couple of years my daughter went to a private Christian school that had a couple of really bad kids that broke all the rules but when other parents complained, the Principal swept it all under the run because the parents of those kids were well heeled professionals and more importantly were large financial supporters of the school.

    Money talks, rule breakers walk...
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  27. #27

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    In a word, no.

    The taxpayer has always been given the choice of which school district to support.

    That's all, and the rest is fashionable bigotry.

    No, I am most certainly not Catholic, in any way.

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    I've heard quite a few people who seem to think the catholic school system is more analogous to the private school system in the states.

    Seemingly you are "better" if you or your kids go to a catholic school and not a "ghetto" public school.

    I usually point out how stupid that sounds but some people are just too ignorant.
    Anyone else get this perception form people?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    In a word, no.

    The taxpayer has always been given the choice of which school district to support.

    That's all, and the rest is fashionable bigotry.

    No, I am most certainly not Catholic, in any way.
    This. It's funded by those who value it. Those who don't value it fund the public system. Your tax dollars are being used to support your chosen system.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    In a word, no.
    The taxpayer has always been given the choice of which school district to support.
    That's all, and the rest is fashionable bigotry.
    No, I am most certainly not Catholic, in any way.
    This. It's funded by those who value it. Those who don't value it fund the public system. Your tax dollars are being used to support your chosen system.
    Every year you can 'vote' for the system you support. Can't get any more democratic than that IMHO.
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    Money doesn't come solely from the education tax tacked on to property taxes (which by the way is a completely different issue - we need to do away with that totally). In fact, 72% of education funding comes from general revenue. We use this to build schools, buy supplies, and hire staff.

    Here you go:

    http://education.alberta.ca/media/95...nalbooklet.pdf

    Taxpayers fund both school systems whether they want to or not. Catholic schools should be private schools. There is nothing wrong with parents wanting special schools for their children. They can pay for this themselves.

    However on the topic of the bad behaviour at separate schools being swept under, this happens at any school with less accountability from top brass. Even in the public system. See: Old Scona Academic (which by the way should also be a private school, give scholarships to special students to go, not blind funding). It is well known (according to relatives that have attended the school) that everything from blatant cheating to drug abuse is swept under the rug there.

  32. #32

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    No one said that 100% of the separate school system in directed funding. In a democracy, Harper got less than 40% of the popular vote and only 17% of the entire population. Are you suggesting that he does not have the right to be PM for most of the country?

    The economy and everyone in society benefits from well educated students. It would be different if the graduates of separate schools only provided services to that same group but that is not what happens. Why should the onus be placed on parents with school aged children to fund them as a private school when others benefit from educated doctors, engineers, teachers and policemen who provide all of society with services their whole lives?

    Competition between school boards is a good thing.
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Competition between school boards is a good thing.
    Citation please. I see everyone saying this over & over & over, but nobody actually provides any evidence to support this.

    I'd love to see if there is an actual benefit from pitting two aspects of essential services towards each other & whether or not said benefit is more or less cost effective than applying the money lost to (primarily administrative) redundancies back into the classrooms & front lines of a unified system.
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  34. #34

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    Its my opinion and the opinion of many.

    I thought that the Government of Alberta was all into deregulation and having competition for essential services like our utilities, private hospitals and other services. Isn't that creating a duplicate set of services and waste?
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  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Competition between school boards is a good thing.
    Citation please. I see everyone saying this over & over & over, but nobody actually provides any evidence to support this. .
    Its a fundamental belief Noodle, either you are capitalist and believe competition is good (which has been proven, look at the cold war and who won it), or you are a communist / socialist and you believe government can do everything more efficiently through centralization / no competition. I believe in competition and choices, even if they aren't choices I personally would make for religious reasons. I'm glad I have the option as a parent. And like PRT says, I am also aware of families who moved bullied kids from the public system to the separate system, I think that's a good thing to have that option, regardless of personal religious beliefs one way or the other. There is zero evidence that having only one public system would result in less costs or better education, just speculation, my personal experience, and belief, is that more compeittion and more choice leades to lower costs and better service, not worse.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-12-2014 at 10:33 AM.

  36. #36

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    "Either you support preferential treatment for Catholics or you're a communist!" That's gotta be one of the most ridiculous & nonsensical arguments you've ever made Moa.

    Explain to me, in concrete terms, how having two school boards directly benefits a 3rd grade classroom MORE than having additional classroom resources available & I might buy your "competition" argument. If two school boards are better than one, why stop at 2? Why not 7?

    Even if I accept (and I don't) your statement that competition is an inherently good thing, why do we need to compete at an administrative & elected official level & not more directly at a school-by-school basis? What precludes a unified school board from enacting performance-based incentives to increase internal competitiveness while simultaneously removing unneeded administrative & organizational overhead?
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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Explain to me, in concrete terms, how having two school boards directly benefits a 3rd grade classroom MORE than having additional classroom resources available & I might buy your "competition" argument. If two school boards are better than one, why stop at 2? Why not 7?
    Expain to me in concrete terms how having the choice of an Iphone or an Android is inefficient because it means there is two administrative departments, two groups of software developers, two groups of.... Your logic is communist / socialist logic, the natural conclusion is everything would be more efficient if it was centralized as one. I fundamentally don't agree with that. I am not a catholic, I am an atheist, but I have no problem at all with someone chosing a Catholic education, just as I have no problem with someone choosing an Android. I might think both indicate a lack of wisdom, but I'm glad people have that choice.

    And yes, I'd be fine if private providers were also able to be funded exactly the same way, the same subsidy per child, this is what they do in Scandinavia where private companies actually compete with the public system, and are funded through it. I'd be fine with 7 school boards if it meant more choice, but baring that, I think 2 public funded school boards is better than 1.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-12-2014 at 11:16 AM.

  38. #38

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    There is no interest to improve the service of a monopoly. In monopolistic bureaucracies, the only incentive is to grow the bureaucracy. When they are not delivering, the answer is always the same - we need more money to solve the problems.

    A US reporter that was touring a factory in the former East Germany where they made those god-awful noisy 27 hp 2 cycle pollution spewing Trabant cars. The only car the people of East Germany were allowed to buy. The reporter asked the worker how long he had been producing the model he was working. The worker said 30 years. The reporter asked they didn't make changes to improve the car. He said, "Why should I do that? I sell all I make"

    The car that government built
    The common theme regarding the car’s design, maintenance and support is that all decisions were based on political factors. The end-user was never considered. The prevailing thought was that no matter what the government produced, there would always be a market for it.
    http://www.lakecountrynow.com/opinio...140645683.html
    The production workers joked that the Trabant could reach 60 mph only while traveling west with a stiff east wind out of Moscow.
    It was in production without any significant change for nearly 30 years, producing over 3 million cars. The Trabant's production method, which was extremely labor-intensive, remained unchanged. Government had no interest in improving efficiency or optimizing production methods, since it was a ‘make-work’ program. The Trabant program was not profitable and needed an infusion of cash from the government to sustain production, despite the fact that Trabant was a government monopoly. Very few were exported; those few went to Poland and the Ukraine. But there was a 10 year waiting list for the Trabant; it was the Trabant or nothing
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    just as I have no problem with someone choosing an Android. I might think both indicate a lack of wisdom, but I'm glad people have that choice.
    Let's not get into the whole marriage debate...
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    I really don't understand the competition angle some of you are espousing. The school systems, curriculums and such are pretty much identical (except for the Church thing), and both systems are administered by the provincial government. It's like choosing between vanilla and chocolate gelato at the only store in town that sells it.
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  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Competition between school boards is a good thing.
    Citation please. I see everyone saying this over & over & over, but nobody actually provides any evidence to support this. .
    Its a fundamental belief Noodle, either you are capitalist and believe competition is good (which has been proven, look at the cold war and who won it), or you are a communist / socialist and you believe government can do everything more efficiently through centralization / no competition. I believe in competition and choices, even if they aren't choices I personally would make for religious reasons. I'm glad I have the option as a parent. And like PRT says, I am also aware of families who moved bullied kids from the public system to the separate system, I think that's a good thing to have that option, regardless of personal religious beliefs one way or the other. There is zero evidence that having only one public system would result in less costs or better education, just speculation, my personal experience, and belief, is that more compeittion and more choice leades to lower costs and better service, not worse.
    I'm not overly convinced that application of two *competing* schoolboards chalk full of seemingly tenured positions ranging anywhere from front level (teachers) to boards are great examples of free enterprise at work. If you've been in these environments you would tend to think anything but evolving responsive systems are at work.

    Arguably more the case here is two largely bureaucratic bodies that have trouble adapting to market forces that have been historically granted the market and haven't appreciably needed to change or be responsive to market conditions.

    If private schools represented much more of a proportion and if people could *vote* their property tax allocation to that then maybe I would agree more.

    As is Public or Separate win the funding regardless of performance or value.

    These bodies resemble oligarchy more than unfettered free enterprise.
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  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I really don't understand the competition angle some of you are espousing. The school systems, curriculums and such are pretty much identical (except for the Church thing), and both systems are administered by the provincial government. It's like choosing between vanilla and chocolate gelato at the only store in town that sells it.
    More succinct, and better stated then my long winded attempt.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    No one said that 100% of the separate school system in directed funding. In a democracy, Harper got less than 40% of the popular vote and only 17% of the entire population. Are you suggesting that he does not have the right to be PM for most of the country?

    The economy and everyone in society benefits from well educated students. It would be different if the graduates of separate schools only provided services to that same group but that is not what happens. Why should the onus be placed on parents with school aged children to fund them as a private school when others benefit from educated doctors, engineers, teachers and policemen who provide all of society with services their whole lives?

    Competition between school boards is a good thing.

    That is a super bizarre argument. What does this have to do with democracy? This is about secularism - the idea that religion and state should not mix. If we are funding ANY of a religious school system through public money, we are giving preferential treatment to a specific religion. This is a FUNDAMENTAL breakdown of our constitutional, legal, and societal framework.

    Religious schools are perfectly fine to have. Just make them private. Parents can have the "choice" you want them to, and pay for it.

    That is a superior form of "competition". You want religious schools to exist to compete with public ones? Make people pay to attend them. See how long they "compete" then.

    Currently there is ZERO competition between them. They teach the exact same curriculum, except that the religious schools get taxpayer money to tack on jesus-speech to the lesson plan. That is a heinous crime in my opinion, favouring a religion above all the other ones.

  44. #44

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    Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    It's like choosing between vanilla and chocolate gelato at the only store in town that sells it.
    Which gas company do you use. ATCO, Direct Energy or ENMAX Energy?

    I guess they each have a different flavored product: Vanilla, Pistachio and Rum-Raisin coming out of the exact same gas line coming into my house.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 16-12-2014 at 11:39 AM.
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  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I really don't understand the competition angle some of you are espousing. The school systems, curriculums and such are pretty much identical (except for the Church thing), and both systems are administered by the provincial government. It's like choosing between vanilla and chocolate gelato at the only store in town that sells it.
    I don't think that's true at all, they offer different opions in different locations. For example, you might have a French imersion or a school more focused on music, depending on the mix of public and separate. Having two elementary schools in the neighbourhood gives the twice the choice, and the proof is in the pudding in that parents are making those choices. I remember the "pitch" from the separate and public school principals in my neighbourhood was very differernt (one focused more on community / responsiblity, the other focused on academic), and I think that's a good thing.

  46. #46

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    I agree moahunter. Parents, students and even teachers have preferences on which school they like even within the same system. Students for many years are no longer forced to go to the school in their neighbourhood like they used to. You go to the school down the street or across the city. Schools arre vastly different depending on the principal, the staff, the student mix, the programs and even the facilities in the school.

    No one can tell me that you will get the exact same education at Nellie McClung Girls' school as Vimy Ridge Academy only a few blocks away.

    The Nellie McClung Girls' Junior High Program is NOT a private school; rather, it is one of the many alternative programs offered by Edmonton Public Schools and covers the same provincial curriculum http://nelliemcclung.epsb.ca/
    Our activity-focused campus offers unique and compelling sports, dance and pursuits programs within a thriving academic community in a small school environment. Student achievement at VRA is equal to, and often superior to that of larger high schools
    http://vimyridge.epsb.ca/index2.htm
    Apples and oranges


    Maybe some people want to make every school a public school with the exact same programs, the exact same classes and turn out the exact same 'product'.

    Shades of 1984

    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 16-12-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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  47. #47

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    These are odd arguments PRT.

    The very bureaucratic and closely established curriculums and delivery of education as practiced by either entity, public, or separate, is so uniform and close as to depict the reference instead of argue against it.

    Left to school device alone I would be another brick in the wall. Esposure to the world, society, independent books, my own learning, and in a somewhat free state allows me to be something else. There were certainly myriad attempts for me to conform and accept manufactured knowledge as given. With marks accrued based on said acceptance, adherence, regurgitation of the same and not on independent thought.

    Starting with things like who discovered America..

    Lost on Educators often, and mostly on curriculum answer specific standardized education is that answers were often written with selective bias. Particularly in subjective fields. Possibly even in objective ones..

    How many planets are there in the solar system and list in order of distance from the sun. Hmm, well, define planets and define solar system . Now add that the known is time specific and a view in flux of present known rather than being one neat and tidy numerical answer.


    Edmonton Public and Separate schools would function equally as fine in a flat world despot..

    jmo
    Last edited by Replacement; 16-12-2014 at 01:40 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  48. #48

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    I agree that your arguments are indeed odd arguments.
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  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I agree that your arguments are indeed odd arguments.
    Well there is that too with non conformity.

    Perhaps the plane established by said school systems contraprepares for such alternate views.

    tongue in cheek jk around.

    That said I did think your argument was one step removed from a Godwin.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  50. #50

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    Public schools do not teach Godwin's law because it has the word God in it and that is not allowed.

    But corporate sponsorships in education is allowed.

    http://www.teachers.ab.ca/Teaching%2...he-School.aspx
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  51. #51

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    So do the people who want all schools to be absolutley identical, want all universities to be identical as well? By their logic, shouldn't that curriculum be set to be the same as well?

  52. #52
    highlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    No one said that 100% of the separate school system in directed funding. In a democracy, Harper got less than 40% of the popular vote and only 17% of the entire population. Are you suggesting that he does not have the right to be PM for most of the country?

    The economy and everyone in society benefits from well educated students. It would be different if the graduates of separate schools only provided services to that same group but that is not what happens. Why should the onus be placed on parents with school aged children to fund them as a private school when others benefit from educated doctors, engineers, teachers and policemen who provide all of society with services their whole lives?

    Competition between school boards is a good thing.

    That is a super bizarre argument. What does this have to do with democracy? This is about secularism - the idea that religion and state should not mix. If we are funding ANY of a religious school system through public money, we are giving preferential treatment to a specific religion. This is a FUNDAMENTAL breakdown of our constitutional, legal, and societal framework.

    Religious schools are perfectly fine to have. Just make them private. Parents can have the "choice" you want them to, and pay for it.

    That is a superior form of "competition". You want religious schools to exist to compete with public ones? Make people pay to attend them. See how long they "compete" then.

    Currently there is ZERO competition between them. They teach the exact same curriculum, except that the religious schools get taxpayer money to tack on jesus-speech to the lesson plan. That is a heinous crime in my opinion, favouring a religion above all the other ones.
    Favouring one faith with a fully-funded independent board, but not others, is a problem, for sure.

    On the other hand, fully funding the education of every student at every school that teaches the basic Alberta curriculum seems to me to be the exactly right, equitable and fair way to do things.

    There are significant funds beyond per-student funding that should be directed primarily towards the public system. I don't think that the province would make many enemies if it would stop building new catholic schools in favour of more public schools, for instance.

  53. #53

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    Who said they wanted all schools absolutely identical?

    Just because people don't want taxpayers paying for religious discrimination (and favouring one religious sect over all the others IS discrimination) does not mean we want homogeneity of all aspects of the educational system. That's some leap you're making there, even for you.

    There's room for all manner of programs & services in the system without requiring a duplication of administrative functions & government-funded proselytizing & indoctrination.
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  54. #54

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    More programs, more costs.

    Wanna save costs? Teach readin, riting and areathmatic.
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  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Explain to me, in concrete terms, how having two school boards directly benefits a 3rd grade classroom MORE than having additional classroom resources available & I might buy your "competition" argument. If two school boards are better than one, why stop at 2? Why not 7?
    Expain to me in concrete terms how having the choice of an Iphone or an Android is inefficient because it means there is two administrative departments, two groups of software developers, two groups of.... Your logic is communist / socialist logic, the natural conclusion is everything would be more efficient if it was centralized as one. .
    Very poor analogy. iPhone and Android are not funded by taxpayers, many of whom don't even use the services they are paying for. Also, I have seen exactly zero evidence that this 'competition' between the school boards has gestated any sort of innovation or better product from either.

    It's straight up throwing money in the toilet simply to duplicate bureaucratic overhead.
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  56. #56
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    Every time there is a new neighborhood needing schools they have to build 2 elementary schools, 2 high schools, 2 middle schools funded by taxpayers just because of this catholic entitlement thing. Whats with that? Cant everybody just go to the same school? Seems odd to me. Its 2014, lets get real about this. If you are catholic and think your kid must attend a catholic school send them to Rome I guess.

  57. #57
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    Look at the debacle in Morinville. They've only had a Catholic school but many parents are pushing for a public school so that they don't have to send their kids to St. Albert. How does that make sense for a town that size?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  58. #58
    highlander
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    They have a public school now, but it's full up.

  59. #59

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    Alberta, Ontario and the Territories are the only provinces to have two school systems. Some cities in Saskatchewan also have two school systems. If other provinces can function with one school system I don't see why Alberta cannot.
    http://www.pstranslations.ca/education_canada.htm
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    From a purely financial standpoint, it makes sense to amalgamate the two boards into one. There is a lot of duplication of services. There are a lot of big salaries at the separate school board head office. And in an effort to protect their fat cat jobs, the catholic board spins this issue as an attack on their religion. It's not. It's just financial sense.
    And the catholic board needs to stop bullying its employees. The nepotism is running rampant in the catholic system. They are situational Catholics. When it benefits them, they wave their religion in your face, when it does not benefit them, they crucify anyone in their way.

    And their lawyers have been working overtime trotting out official policies on inclusiveness. What these are is a way to off load the responsibility and blame away from head office should any more former students surface detailing the undercurrent of bigotry. Catholics love all people as long as you are not one of the groups they disapprove of, like gay people. Then they get all indignant.

    Ask them why it took 350 years to apologize over the persecution of Galaleo?
    Last edited by Cardinal Fang; 16-12-2014 at 07:13 PM.
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  61. #61
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    One school system can't meet the needs of different children. Even if you don't consider religion there are still many different needs. Some students are gifted athletes of potential Olympic quality, some are geniuses, some have handicaps and need more focused education. Some children are disciplinary problems and need more supervision. Some are more creative and artistic. Some students or their parents want their children receive immersed education in a different language of their own heritage.

    One education doesn't serve the student well and as a result Edmonton even in for secular schools have different focuses. People aren't cookie cutters and neither should the schools or the systems and board.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundance View Post
    One school system can't meet the needs of different children. Even if you don't consider religion there are still many different needs. Some students are gifted athletes of potential Olympic quality, some are geniuses, some have handicaps and need more focused education. Some children are disciplinary problems and need more supervision. Some are more creative and artistic. Some students or their parents want their children receive immersed education in a different language of their own heritage.
    None of what you're saying here requires a second set of school boards, administration, trustees & superintendents.

    Removing the duplication in the back of the house doesn't have to impact the front of the house, except for the removal of government funding of programs that promote religious discrimination & indoctrination.
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    The school board is largely a political creation, it is possible for EPSB to be administered by one person which all the principals report to (okay there are lot of schools so perhaps not reasonably feasible, but you get my drift).

    Reasonably you need so many administrators to oversee so many principals and school, in the end you still have a certain amount of administration regardless if you merged systems.

    So if we merged the Catholic and public school board you'd probably end up with the same amount of trustees but they would manage a smaller geographical area, and probably administer the same number of schools.
    Last edited by sundance; 17-12-2014 at 10:32 AM.

  64. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Alberta, Ontario and the Territories are the only provinces to have two school systems. Some cities in Saskatchewan also have two school systems. If other provinces can function with one school system I don't see why Alberta cannot.
    http://www.pstranslations.ca/education_canada.htm
    Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the school system would cost less, or be better, based on the experience of these other provinces? My understanding is Alberta's education system is pretty much the best in Canada. Why break something that is working, just because some people don't like choice and competition / think monopolies are more efficeint? I guarantee if we had one school board, it would more burecratic and wasteful not less, that's what happens when there is only one place to work for / nobody to compare to. Even in the corporate world smaller organizations are often leaner and more efficient than larger ones. The province right now can push back for improvements based on what the other one is doing, that will be gone for good.
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-12-2014 at 11:48 AM.

  65. #65

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    Because state-funded religious discrimination is a violation of human rights as per the UN?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldman_v._Canada

    Nah, screw it. Who needs pesky things like "equal rights" when you've got competition?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  66. #66

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    ^nobody is forcing anyone to go send their kids to a Catholic school, and parents have the choice which school they fund. IMO that's a good thing, I wish there were more choices, not less. As to the UN, I don't look to a big burecratic, political and wasteful organization for moral, scientific or economic guidance, if you do, then I guess for example, you think all land in Canada should be returned to First Nations as well?
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-12-2014 at 11:53 AM.

  67. #67

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    Yeah, it's pretty clear the nuances are either lost on you or you're being willfully ignorant of the actual issues in play just to be contrarian.

    Giving Catholics preferential treatment means you're discriminating against every other faith or belief system. I'm not really fond of state-funded religious discrimination (though you seem to advocate for it) & as it's impractical to provide religious instruction for each unique faith equally, the only fair, equitable & human-rights-centric policy is to remove all state funding from religious education.

    Also, still waiting for a secular example of competition that can only be accomplished by having two school boards & could not exist if the two school boards merged.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Alberta, Ontario and the Territories are the only provinces to have two school systems. Some cities in Saskatchewan also have two school systems. If other provinces can function with one school system I don't see why Alberta cannot.
    http://www.pstranslations.ca/education_canada.htm
    Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the school system would cost less, or be better, based on the experience of these other provinces? My understanding is Alberta's education system is pretty much the best in Canada. Why break something that is working, just because some people don't like choice and competition / think monopolies are more efficeint? I guarantee if we had one school board, it would more burecratic and wasteful not less, that's what happens when there is only one place to work for / nobody to compare to. Even in the corporate world smaller organizations are often leaner and more efficient than larger ones. The province right now can push back for improvements based on what the other one is doing, that will be gone for good.
    Are you kidding me?. Do you live in a bubble. Have I any proof that the school system would cost less if it was one board. Think of all the cities there are in Alberta, then how many towns, how many counties etc. Multiply that how many times you want and that is a lot of duplication. They all have their public/separate school boards with petty people hanging onto their fiefdoms. As for curriculum. 99.9 of the curriculum is the same in schools. You get diversity in maybe one or two subjects but the bar is set that all kids get their basic education. If they want to then go onto a higher education that is why we have universities and college and trade schools.
    By the way, do you have any proof that Alberta's education system is better than others in Canada. And by that I mean cost wise and not just academic.
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  69. #69
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    Everyone here talking about cost, politics, "choice" etc is completely missing the point. We are a secular state. Publicly funding a religious school is literally discrimination, and is in complete disregard of the fundamental structure of our governmental framework.

    Catholic schools are a sad remnant of an outdated society, that is exploiting the fact they were grandfathered in to our modern state. It is time to let them die off. If they want to privately fund them, all the power to those who will.

  70. #70

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    Alberta is ranked #1 in Canada. Ontario is usually #2 and both have two school boards

    Ontario is often studied in comparing education systems world wide and often is ranked #1. So I guess Alberta's system being better that Ontario's ranks us as #1+

    How are Canadian students performing?
    http://www.societyforqualityeducatio...dec06/BURY.pdf

    Why Alberta’s education system is better
    The reasons may surprise you
    http://www.macleans.ca/education/uni...tem-is-better/

    Canadian education among best in the world: OECD
    Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canadian-educa...#ixzz3MBiz5c78


    Public School Indicators for Canada, the Provinces and Territories, 2000/2001 to 2008/2009
    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-.../11433-eng.htm

    Education in Canada
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Canada
    Divisions by religion and language
    The Constitution of Canada provides constitutional protections for some types of publicly funded religious-based and language-based school systems.

    The Constitution Act, 1867 contains a guarantee for publicly funded religious-based separate schools, provided the separate schools were established by law prior to the province joining Confederation. Court cases have established that this provision did not apply to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Manitoba, British Columbia, and Prince Edward Island, since those provinces did not provide a legal guarantee for separate schools prior to Confederation. The provision did originally apply to Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Newfoundland and Labrador, since these provinces did have pre-existing separate schools. This constitutional provision was repealed in Quebec by a constitutional amendment in 1997, and for Newfoundland and Labrador in 1998. The constitutional provision continues to apply to Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta. There is a similar federal statutory provision which applies to the Northwest Territories.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 17-12-2014 at 01:42 PM.
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  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Everyone here talking about cost, politics, "choice" etc is completely missing the point. We are a secular state. Publicly funding a religious school is literally discrimination, and is in complete disregard of the fundamental structure of our governmental framework.
    Really? Maybe you haven't studied this in school.

    The preamble to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is the introductory sentence to the Constitution of Canada's Charter of Rights and Constitution Act, 1982. In full, it reads,

    “Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law”

    Note that God is capitalized


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preambl...s_and_Freedoms
    The preamble has proved valuable to some groups and political parties. The Christian Heritage Party of Canada, for example, quoted the preamble on the main page of their website, and the party called itself "Canada's only pro-Life, pro-family federal political party, and the only federal party that endorses the principles of the Preamble to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms." The words "principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law" also appear in the party's official policies regarding what they feel all laws should be based upon, and the party states that "'Human rights' as expressed in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms can only, therefore, be legitimately interpreted in light of, or in conjunction with, the higher Moral Law of God."

    Muslim Canadians have also cited the preamble as being important to them: Some have written that "in Canada these are the principles of the Islamic Law which correspond to similar principles in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which relate to: (1) The Supremacy of God and the Rule of Law (Preamble); (2) Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms (3) Fundamental Freedoms (4) Equality Rights; (5) Multicultural heritage." Since, in their view, Islamic law originated with God, and since multiculturalism would indicate the God referred to in the Preamble would include the Islamic God, then Islamic law should have a place in Canada.
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  72. #72
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    ^ Said preamble is secondary to the elements of the constitution itself. Freedom from discrimination trumps it.

    "In considering the legal implications of the preamble in the 1999 case R. v. Sharpe, the British Columbia Court of Appeal referred to it as a "dead letter" which the BC justices had "no authority to breathe life" into."

    Also

    " Justice Bertha Wilson defined freedom of conscience as protecting "conscientious beliefs which are not religiously motivated", and balanced the preamble out with the statement that "the values entrenched in the Charter are those which characterize a free and democratic society".

    This, with the "rule of law" comment, also suggests that we must place discrimination based on religion above an obscure construction of a preamble.

    Even moreso, there is absolutely no reference to a definition of "god". Selecting the catholic definition of "god" is discrimination again based on further sections of the charter of rights and freedoms.
    Last edited by Jaerdo; 17-12-2014 at 02:00 PM.

  73. #73

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    Was waiting for someone to trot out the Charter.

    "Ha ha! Our ability to be bigots & get preferential treatment is enshrined right here in the Constitution, so neenerneenerneener!"

    Braaaavo.

    People are very reluctant to give up their preferential status & as such the removal of the religious references from our Constitution are long, long overdue. The fact that it was a top issue during repatriation speaks to the insidious nature of the religious lobby & its ability to organize to remove the rights of others under the guise of strengthening their own beliefs.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  74. #74

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    We have an inclusive society, and a inclusive school system. Not the hatred that you spout.

    Just ignore the fact that we have one of the best school systems in the world.

    Changing horses?
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  75. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    We have an inclusive society, and a inclusive school system. Not the hatred that you spout.
    Where's the publically-funded Muslim school board? Where's the tax declarations for funding a Lutheran school board? Anglican? Pentecostal? Baptist? Scientologist? Buddhist? Taoist? Baha'i?

    Nope. Just one for papists & one for "everyone". Only Catholics get special treatment. Only the Catholic faith is included on the list of "faiths deserving of public funds for proselytizing & indoctrination". Why don't we include everyone on that list? A list of one is not inclusive, regardless of the demographic size.

    I'm not changing horses, I think that two school boards leads to waste & redundancy & the fact that one of these two school boards is grounded in one specific religious sect is discrimination & horribly archaic. It's like a little onion of suck, with each layer of BS encapsulating the crap under it, all covered with the thin skin of supernatural woo-woo.

    Getting rid of the Catholic School Boards solves both my arguments & has been done before in other provinces, despite the Charter & its outmoded, unenforceable, contradictory preamble.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Alberta is ranked #1 in Canada. Ontario is usually #2 and both have two school boards

    Ontario is often studied in comparing education systems world wide and often is ranked #1. So I guess Alberta's system being better that Ontario's ranks us as #1+

    How are Canadian students performing?
    http://www.societyforqualityeducatio...dec06/BURY.pdf

    Why Alberta’s education system is better
    The reasons may surprise you
    http://www.macleans.ca/education/uni...tem-is-better/

    Canadian education among best in the world: OECD
    Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canadian-educa...#ixzz3MBiz5c78


    Public School Indicators for Canada, the Provinces and Territories, 2000/2001 to 2008/2009
    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-004-.../11433-eng.htm

    Education in Canada
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Canada
    Divisions by religion and language
    The Constitution of Canada provides constitutional protections for some types of publicly funded religious-based and language-based school systems.

    The Constitution Act, 1867 contains a guarantee for publicly funded religious-based separate schools, provided the separate schools were established by law prior to the province joining Confederation. Court cases have established that this provision did not apply to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Manitoba, British Columbia, and Prince Edward Island, since those provinces did not provide a legal guarantee for separate schools prior to Confederation. The provision did originally apply to Ontario, Quebec, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Newfoundland and Labrador, since these provinces did have pre-existing separate schools. This constitutional provision was repealed in Quebec by a constitutional amendment in 1997, and for Newfoundland and Labrador in 1998. The constitutional provision continues to apply to Ontario, Saskatchewan and Alberta. There is a similar federal statutory provision which applies to the Northwest Territories.
    Geez, some of those articles are 10 years old. If you look at the overall picture within the last 24 months Alberta may be doing well but in a lot of things pertaining to education we are not so sparkly. C- on Alberta producing students with Ph'd's also adult reading skills are not up to par. Looking at the overall picture it's not A's by any means. Then again, some people will cherry pick this article to their advantage.

    http://www.conferenceboard.ca/hcp/pr...education.aspx
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  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Everyone here talking about cost, politics, "choice" etc is completely missing the point. We are a secular state. Publicly funding a religious school is literally discrimination, and is in complete disregard of the fundamental structure of our governmental framework.
    That's ridiculous, how am I as an atheist discriminated against, because some parents choose to put their school funding towards a catholic school? Providing religious or school choices is not discrimination. But sure, if you want to hit the "I hate the catholic church and accordingly, hate catholic schools" argument, its a better one than criticise on the basis that monopolies are better. Still makes no sense IMO, but then, I guess I am more tolerant in nature than many people on this thread. I don't like the catholic church, but I have no problem with parents deciding what's best for their kids, even if its not a decision I would make.

    PS. I understood that the Alberta government does provide some funding towards other religious schools, including Muslim. I'm fine with that to.
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-12-2014 at 04:41 PM.

  78. #78

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    You really can't see how Catholics get favoured status by uniquely having a dedicated, publically funded school district to proselytize in?

    And if you're not the favourite, you're discriminated against. You can't have favourites & equality at the same time. And we are guaranteed to have equitable treatment of all faiths (or the lack thereof) so, therefore, the state can't have a favourite.
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  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    And if you're not the favourite, you're discriminated against.
    So if all schools are secular, by your logic, wouldn't I be discriminated against if I was a Catholic as there was no non-secular school for me to send my kids to? For then, I wouldn't be the favorite anymore, would I? You are pushing your religious view (secular is best), on Catholic families, I don't think that's tolerant at all, like it or not we have a Catholic school system that parents enjoy sending their kids to, unlike you, I don't begrudge that just because there are no special atheist schools to send my kids to.

  80. #80

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    No you'd be treated exactly the same as everyone of every faith, because none of them would have a publically funded school board catering to their particular brand of woowoo.

    Taking away something one sect shouldn't have (preferential treatment) isn't discrimination. It's levelling the playing field.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  81. #81

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    ^lol, we aren't going to agree I see. I think its nice Canada isn't the US / has its own history and traditions, and I think its good Alberta has competition in the school system. I'm tolerant enough to accept that we have a large catholic population (many descended from French Canadians), and that anyone who wants to can choose this as an option for their children, can. It would be nice if there were even more religious options / school boards, and other options (even a voucher system), but I'm comfortable with what we have, Alberta public schools outperform US public schools, and IMO having this competition is part of the reason.

  82. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Alberta public schools outperform US public schools, and IMO having this competition is part of the reason.
    Well why stop there moa? Let's have two publicly funded boards of health. The competition between them will surely benefit us all! Let's have two departments of transportation. The competition will result in better roads, and more choice for Alberta motorists. Hell, let's have two legislative assemblies! Voters can decide which one they want to fund!
    Support the mob or mysteriously disappear...

  83. #83

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    The L O L is on moa, there is no difference in the public/catholic curriculum except for religion. The Alberta School Act gives balance to school boards so that all students get basically the same standards of education. The only perceived difference is that some people (like moa) seem to think the catholic system is superior. It's not, it's just a perception.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by bulliver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Alberta public schools outperform US public schools, and IMO having this competition is part of the reason.
    Well why stop there moa? Let's have two publicly funded boards of health. The competition between them will surely benefit us all! Let's have two departments of transportation. The competition will result in better roads, and more choice for Alberta motorists. Hell, let's have two legislative assemblies! Voters can decide which one they want to fund!
    Actually, some of the best health care systems in the world are insurance based with a mix of public and private, eg Switzerland, with government providing guaranteed minimal health. On transportation, private sector builds roads, sometimes even owns them, many cities tender out bus routes to the highest bidder (or lowest subsidy). That's a thread divert though, as I said, I'd be comfortable with a voucher system for schools, opening it up beyond catholic and public, but again, not the issue in the thread. I believe in choice, and I think it's fine that many people choose the catholic school system, something even many non Catholics choose for various reasons, there is no exclusion.
    Last edited by moahunter; 17-12-2014 at 05:43 PM.

  85. #85

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    I'm glad you think nebulous, unsubstantiated "competition" is more important than equal rights.

    I'm also glad I hold your opinions in about as much esteem as I do the Oilers.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  86. #86
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    ^^ Some would argue that places like Sweden where the fraction of public health care funding is over 80% receive better value for money than Switzerland.

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    What exactly is separate school education, and what does it mean for Albertans?
    http://changenowforgood.ca/exactly-s...ean-albertans/

    Roman Catholic separate schools are not simply “public schools by another name”. They represent a “State-Church” connection that favours one denomination in a way that is denied to every other denomination. One question that needs to be asked is whether favouring one denomination is favouring one too many. Another question that needs to be asked is whether State sponsored separate schools are consistent with our expectations and aspirations for Alberta at the beginning of the 21st century.

    This thread was started by SDM that references a blog by David King, who is a Christian but seems to have issues with the Catholic Church and wtites about the Alberta School system even though he lives in Victoria BC. Here is his Creed http://changenowforgood.ca/creed/

    He makes some statements that are half truths and rails against the RCC and separate schools as if they are preventing non-catholics and non-religious students from going there. Nothing can be further from the truth. There is no requirement to be RC to go to a Cathloic School and the RCC's influence on the students and staff is being minimized as time marches on.

    IMHO, he sounds more like an angry former Catholic who was hard done by as a student in a small town in rural Alberta.

    I used to be RC just because my parents were and while in school I openly defied the religious teachings which were even then limited to Religion Class and did not spill into other classes or activities, and I was never punished, ostracized, discriminated or any other claims posters suggest. In fact, the good religion teachers openly debated the subject at hand but some of the weaker teachers would get in over their head and then suggest I talk to the Franciscan Friars at the Church across the street to answer my pointed questions. I am Christian but I changed franchises and am pragmatically unbiased about the pros and cons of a separate school system.

    It has been proven that Alberta has one of, if not the finest education system in the world followed closely by Ontario that also has a two school system.

    Now if you desire to change the status quo, the first thing you must do is show that there is a reason to do so. You have to provide factual and verifiable information, not just bashing the system on hearsay. Past issues with Catholic Priest scandal and residential schools are not the focus of the debate on this thread. Sexual abuse is more pervasive in the Catholic Church than in other institutions.

    1. Demonstrate that a two school system is not as efficient in providing a quality education.
    2. Demonstrate that the cost per student is higher than another jurisdiction that provides the same quality of education, equivalent student achievements and has similar teacher salaries & benefits.
    3. Demonstrate that there are prevalent* and systemic discrimination including actual cases that have gone to the Alberta Human Rights Commission and have been ruled against the Separate School Board. (* not singular cases)
    4. Demonstrate that the RCC exerts too much influence and the separate school system and significantly harms many students.
    5. Demonstrate that other jurisdictions where they eliminated religious based public funded schools had significant improvements in education and/or cost reduction



    Also, if you want to dissolve the religious schools and post secondary education facilities in Alberta, you must also consider dissolving the many Catholic hospitals in Alberta and there are all sorts of publicly funded religious based hospitals across Canada that do not discriminate on religious grounds.


    If it ain't broke, why fix it?

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    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 18-12-2014 at 11:31 AM.
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  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    If it ain't broke, why fix it?
    Just because you don't have a problem with government-sanctioned & funded religious discrimination doesn't make it not "broke". You may not care about all people, of all beliefs, being treated equally & fairly by the state, because it furthers your own ignorant ideological bent, but furthering said ideology is not, should not, and can not be the purview & mandate of the government.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  89. #89

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    There's no bigotry like anti-religious bigotry.

    Hint to RCC bashers: you are no better than the violent anti-moslems, anti-semites and all the other antis.

    And yes, I have far less problem with "government-sanctioned & funded religious discrimination" than with the bigots that pretend to be enlightened.

    Anyone who has ever accepted any form of money from the public purse has had their own personal bigotry sanctioned. That's all of us in one way or another.

  90. #90

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    Noodle, rather than calling religious people ignorant, why don't you debate the subject and prove your claims of discrimination or just admit to your own ignorant ideological bent?
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 18-12-2014 at 10:35 AM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  91. #91
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    Personally I don't care too much about the public school vs. catholic school debate and which book of fairy tales the teachers read the kids. Although school may reinforce an existing belief, I highly doubt anyone forms a religious belief based on what is taught in schools in Alberta today. I don't remember any of my cohorts in K-12 giving much of a damn what the teachers taught...

    But I do agree the two systems could sometimes work together to improve efficiencies by sharing resources and coordinating school placements.

  92. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Alberta, Ontario and the Territories are the only provinces to have two school systems. Some cities in Saskatchewan also have two school systems. If other provinces can function with one school system I don't see why Alberta cannot.
    http://www.pstranslations.ca/education_canada.htm
    Because the rights of the catholic organizations are enshrined in the laws and documents that form the foundation of Alberta becoming a province.....

    One can not simply wipe them away..... A lot of the conversation once here is redundant. There was a great article that touched on some of these things as it also spills over to healthcare.
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  93. #93

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    http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/201...#__federated=1

    It's amazing at how bad we are at telling the Alberta story.... So much riich history... All overshadowed by oil
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  94. #94

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    I find atheist's and non believers are more prone to getting rid of the separate school system than believers. Atheists can't reconcile why people who believe in hokus pokus treat their fellow men/women like second class citizens because they are gay. Telling an atheist that the bible (their interpretation) says it's wrong for someone to be gay is hard for an atheist to swallow as they do not believe in the first place. Nobody is GLB etc because it's a part of their believe system. They are GLB etc because they were born that way and it was meant to be. Non believers are more excepting of this, it seems.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  95. #95

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    What a bunch of B.S.
    Based upon conjecture, prejudices and religion bashing.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  96. #96

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    ^Just saying.^^
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  97. #97

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    In my opinion the largest problems facing schools is the separation of school boards from municipalities. Frankly BOTH school boards should be rolled under the management of the municipality they are in. The city of edmonton should be the ones building schools as no diffrent then any other community place such as rec centres and libraries. It's silly to have an organization who's primary resposability is land use... have zero control over arguably the most important community infastructure of an area. If the school board was just a Seperate Comitee of council (or an advisory Comitee). Then the municipality would have the control they need to manage the problems. You likely wouldn't find underutilization of schools if that was the case. And likely schools would be planned out before any greenfield sites would be built. As far as I'm concerned it's a win-win for everyone. Merging the City the EPSB and the catholic school bord is the best solution. (and maybe just maybe we can get rid of the waste of valuable community space being wasted for 18 hours per day, as well as underutilization of existing schools):

    Now on that note I have a few problems if we do not go that way. For example Seperate school teachers are allowed to work in public schools. And Public people with no religious background cannot work in the Seperate system. As far as I'm concerned it's agaist my religious freedoms to barr me employment based on my religion of choice. Especially as the system is paid by taxpayers. I don't think we should condone any organization that as a central part of its platform to have discriminatory hiring practices.

    Edit: I'm on mobile. I will fix spelling later
    Last edited by Himser; 24-12-2014 at 05:35 PM. Reason: spelling

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Alberta, Ontario and the Territories are the only provinces to have two school systems. Some cities in Saskatchewan also have two school systems. If other provinces can function with one school system I don't see why Alberta cannot.
    http://www.pstranslations.ca/education_canada.htm
    Because the rights of the catholic organizations are enshrined in the laws and documents that form the foundation of Alberta becoming a province.....

    One can not simply wipe them away..... A lot of the conversation once here is redundant. There was a great article that touched on some of these things as it also spills over to healthcare.
    Have you heard of separation of church and state? No organization in Alberta has the right to deny others their basic rights as Canadian citizens and human beings.

    We should have one public school system. But we have an entire separate organization and many people fully invested in keeping things they way they are now, and they won't want to change.

    As it is, the Catholic schools need to change themselves, or we'll be in court all the time, costing millions, and they will lose. You'd think maybe they'd start listening closer to what the Pope has to say, being Catholics. The Church has changed in the past, and is changing now. The anti-gay bunch look more like dinosaurs with each passing day, but that's little comfort to vulnerable kids questioning their sexuality (and other things) in an environment that is not accepting of who they are, and who need support right now.

    I had a long, very heated, conversation on this topic over the holidays with some right wing, non-religious, gay friends who were firmly (and perhaps surprisingly) in the "that's just the way it is" camp. The overt suggestion was that kids will be kids, and like my friends when they were younger and being bullied, the victims need to be strong.

    That just floors me. I've heard things like that many times from a range of people, often accompanied by the utterly ridiculous saying "you can't legislate morality". I think that's what set me off.

    The kids that are being targeted and bullied are always those who are seen as weak. Maybe they are. That's why they are targeted. Asking someone who isn't strong like that to be tough and ride it out, or something, both hits the point and misses it entirely.

    Some of these kids aren't "tough" at all. They're just kids. Grownups expecting kids to be "tough" and stand up to bullies are so far removed from those kids day to day reality that they should just shut up, because they are adding insult to injury.

    They just aren't "tough". They don't have it in them. And that's why they are bullied. It's not the "tough" kids that have that problem.

    Kids shouldn't have to be "tough" to go to school.

    These kids need our support and protection, and they need to know that they aren't all alone.

    The recent bullying suicide incident in California, which happened just as the bill 20 debate was at it's most heated, really hit me hard because the young boy looks so much like my girlfriends little guy, who is autistic, and hasn't a tough bone in his body.

    I can't change the whole thing tomorrow myself, but I can do what I can, by writing to my elected representatives letting them know where I stand, and what I expect from them, or whomever I decide to vote for next election. I know there are lots of people who feel the same way in Edmonton, and in Alberta (and on this forum), and we need to let those running things now that they won't be running things for long if they don't do the right thing.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-01-2015 at 02:45 PM.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  99. #99

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    There is no separation of church and state in Canada. Read the first sentence of the Charter, please. The one that starts with "Whereas" and ends with "the supremacy of God and the rule of law".

    Like it or not.

  100. #100

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    ^ Yup.

    Liberals like to talk a big game about equality and inclusiveness, but they created a Charter that automatically excludes people with non-religious beliefs. Yet they in the same breath will bad-mouth Conservatives for allowing their religious prejudices to creep into law.

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