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Thread: Put your kids in a "dumb" school if you want them to go to university

  1. #1

    Default Put your kids in a "dumb" school if you want them to go to university

    With exams soon to make up a smaller percentage of high school marks, it seems that the way to great grades is to go to a softie school that gives nice marks, not an academic one like Scona:

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch...ml?id=10904281

    Sorta sad I think.

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    Good thing I finished high school years ago. My diploma exam mark was better than my school based mark in every single course, and I didn't go to a particularly academic school. Diploma exams had actual written response questions back then too, not just multiple choice and numeric response.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 27-03-2015 at 09:27 PM.

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    I went to Eastglen.. Graduated in 2013 with a degree and I'm going back for a diploma.

    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
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    ^ I went to a dumb school in another country, where the grade was 100 percent based on a national exam, 6 out of 200 in my class went to university. In the rich schools, the stats were about 60 percent going to university, I agree there is something to be said for kids getting a rounded view of not just academic peers, another reason I guess not to send them to Scona.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
    Absolutely.

    I was recently talking to a salesperson who told me that her kids in a Sherwood Park high school team were playing against Eastglen High, and all the Sherwood Park parents were commenting how surprised they were that there was only one white kid on the Eastglen team (it was mostly black and aboriginal kids).

  6. #6

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    I always found that my diploma marks were much higher than the marks I got in school. That was largely because I never did my homework. Going to a dumber school means that your kid would be in an environment that doesnt respect education; I'd rather put him in a school where kids study hard so he is better prepared for University

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
    Absolutely.

    I was recently talking to a salesperson who told me that her kids in a Sherwood Park high school team were playing against Eastglen High, and all the Sherwood Park parents were commenting how surprised they were that there was only one white kid on the Eastglen team (it was mostly black and aboriginal kids).
    Not seeing how that applies to the "dumb school" scenario.

  8. #8
    grish
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    With exams soon to make up a smaller percentage of high school marks, it seems that the way to great grades is to go to a softie school that gives nice marks, not an academic one like Scona:

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch...ml?id=10904281

    Sorta sad I think.
    I am going to make a game out of this. I have not yet clicked on the link, but my prediction:
    This is a vintage Staples opinion carp*. Staples has managed to be on the wrong side of pretty much every education issue and is completely clue-less about what he writes. Perhaps a change of focus is in order.

    Will post back once I click...

  9. #9
    grish
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    STAPLES!
    Basis for argument? Teachers are not professional enough to evaluate the student fairly based on curriculum expectations due to student behaviour or petty issues like personality clashes.
    Reality: teachers have the training to teach. That includes evaluation. The diplomas evaluate some specific components of the curriculum, but are not able to evaluate all. For example, consider Grade 12 Math Program of Studies.

    It lists the goals for students as:
    • solve problems
    • communicate and reason mathematically
    • make connections between mathematics and its
    applications
    • become mathematically literate
    • appreciate and value mathematics
    • make informed decisions as contributors to
    society.
    Let's take the first one: SOLVE PROBLEMS. A problem that is trully a PROBLEM– meaning not something previously solved with slightly different numbers–requires time and ability to problem solve. That is not something that can be tested in a timed examination. All those skills that we want from our students–creativity, perseverance, selection of appropriate problem solving strategy–is not adequately measured by any diploma, but can be observed in a classroom where students are given precisely those types of opportunities.

    A similar analysis would provide a similar conclusions when you consider other goals as well as some of the more specific items within the curriculum. Note that most of them at 30-1 level require a demonstration of reasoning ability. Reasoning and quick responses to anticipated foxed problems are only somewhat connected.

    I am far more suspicious of teachers whose grades match diploma grades as they would have routinely abandon many of the important aspects of learning (math in this case), to focus on grade agreement with diploma and restricting learning to only those skills that are measured by the diploma.

    With a re-balanced weight, my hope is that teachers would return to evaluating other far more important skills and worry less about the final exam.
    Last edited by grish; 28-03-2015 at 11:38 AM.

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    My most memorable exam when I took the departmentals in the late 60s was my Trig exam. I had worked really hard that year and managed to burn out a bit. So when it came time to write the exam I forgot every trig formula.

    The people who marked the exam would have seen a kid who scored a bit over 70%.

    Anyone who looked at the rough work would have seen a kid who got that 70% after figuring all the formulas out from a circle of unit one and the basic definitions.

    Eve

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
    Absolutely.

    I was recently talking to a salesperson who told me that her kids in a Sherwood Park high school team were playing against Eastglen High, and all the Sherwood Park parents were commenting how surprised they were that there was only one white kid on the Eastglen team (it was mostly black and aboriginal kids).
    Not seeing how that applies to the "dumb school" scenario.
    Eastglen is considered to be a "dumb" school (compared to say, Scona), is it not? And I think the kids going to Eastglen are a lot less sheltered than kids at a lot of other schools.

  12. #12

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    The statistics show that if you want to land a job in your desired industry, go to a dumb university too - you'll perform better vs your peers and a top candidate from a dumb university is better than a bottom candidate from a good university.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
    Absolutely.

    I was recently talking to a salesperson who told me that her kids in a Sherwood Park high school team were playing against Eastglen High, and all the Sherwood Park parents were commenting how surprised they were that there was only one white kid on the Eastglen team (it was mostly black and aboriginal kids).
    Not seeing how that applies to the "dumb school" scenario.
    Eastglen is considered to be a "dumb" school (compared to say, Scona), is it not? And I think the kids going to Eastglen are a lot less sheltered than kids at a lot of other schools.
    Eastglen may be concidered a "dumb" school but a comment about how there was only one white kid on a team doesn't say anything about the intelligence, or lack of inteligence of the student body at Eastglen.

  14. #14

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    One thing that such conversations reveal is how academic and other restricted social systems can be "gamed". Motivated parents can work any system to their child's advantage and another equally deserving child's disadvantage.

    Then of course we all say: 'If only that kid had worked harder they'd have been more successful. Their failure is only their own fault. ...'

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
    Absolutely.

    I was recently talking to a salesperson who told me that her kids in a Sherwood Park high school team were playing against Eastglen High, and all the Sherwood Park parents were commenting how surprised they were that there was only one white kid on the Eastglen team (it was mostly black and aboriginal kids).
    What a disturbingly voiced comment in context of thread. What exactly is the inference here?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.
    Absolutely.

    I was recently talking to a salesperson who told me that her kids in a Sherwood Park high school team were playing against Eastglen High, and all the Sherwood Park parents were commenting how surprised they were that there was only one white kid on the Eastglen team (it was mostly black and aboriginal kids).
    What a disturbingly voiced comment in context of thread. What exactly is the inference here?
    I think the poster is just reiterating a conversation about a school's perception (and actual observations) based on an earlier query in a post. The idea that so claimed 'smart' schools don't reflect "culture" (whatever that really is) is disturbing I suppose.

  17. #17

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    When I started the thread, it was more just thinking about the article, and the school I went to which wasn't academic. Do smarter kids choose to go to certain types of schools? Or is it that certain schools make kids smarter? I'm not sure. My son attends a gifted child school in Edmonton, it wasn't what I would have picked, but it was his choice. Oddly, in that school, I don't think there is one "white" child in his class, probably more a cultural reflection on immigrants puting a higher emphasis on academics, I'm guessing.

    When I got to university I got to associate with some kids who went to the better schools in my city. I could see the advantages then, all around them they were surrounded by friends and parents who were more successful than my peers. I was told the smart kids would become doctors, and the dumb ones accountants (what I am, lol). I find it interesting when I visit the US with work, and I sit at a table, and US colleagues talk about which university they went to, and which ones their kids will go to. The identity with school is so strong, even down to what sports they support. I'm not so sure it's a good thing.

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    grish
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    ^ it's a false causation, moahunter...

    There are strong links between value parents place on education and child success. Parents who value education will seek out "top-ranked" schools and provide other support such as spending time with child to help out with homework, hire tutors, and otherwise model what value is good education for the child in the future. I would argue that it's the parents who ultimately elevate the status of the school, not the teaching staff or the admin team–those come from the same pool of talent. Kids (smart or not) are usually not the ones making the choice and their grades are not usually a good measure for the quality of education that they actually receive. If anything, I would say teachers at schools working with more difficult populations–kids who are born at a disadvantage to do well–are the hardest working, dedicated (and prone to burn out) professionals out there.

    In "top" schools, a child might do well despite the teacher. At a "bottom" school, the child is more likely to do well because of the teacher.
    Last edited by grish; 30-03-2015 at 09:58 AM.

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    I find it amusing that people believe "bad" (read: low-income neighbourhood) schools are "soft".

    In reality you'll find the most grade-adjustment, lax discipline, and straight up cheating at academic schools. The pressure pushes kids to cheat, and the "prestige" of the school leads them to cover things up or manipulate enrollment to keep up appearances.

    For an example you can look at one particular "prestigious" school in Edmonton that starts with an S and ends with an a, I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one. They routinely cover up drug abuse, cheating, etc in the school to keep their "unblemished" record.

    Long story short, "academic excellence" schools are hotbeds of cheating, grade manipulation, and zero discipline for things like drug/alcohol abuse. "Bad" schools don't have to worry about keeping up a prestigous name, and they actually discipline the students. The "bad" schools just look worse because they have so many students with zero home support and terrible family lives, and this translates to poor school performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstock View Post
    I went to Eastglen.. Graduated in 2013 with a degree and I'm going back for a diploma.

    I would say "put your kids in a 'dumb' school if you want them to be cultured." - no filter on society, you get to see the world as it is.


    Eastglen has degree granting status ?

    The phoenix riseth !


  21. #21

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    Eastglen graduate here too.

    Regardless of how well off I become my kids will attend "low-income" schools. The life lessons I learned "growing up broke" is what shaped me as a human. I never want to rob my kids of that life experience due to privilege.
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  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    When I started the thread, it was more just thinking about the article, and the school I went to which wasn't academic. Do smarter kids choose to go to certain types of schools? Or is it that certain schools make kids smarter? I'm not sure. My son attends a gifted child school in Edmonton, it wasn't what I would have picked, but it was his choice. Oddly, in that school, I don't think there is one "white" child in his class, probably more a cultural reflection on immigrants puting a higher emphasis on academics, I'm guessing.

    When I got to university I got to associate with some kids who went to the better schools in my city. I could see the advantages then, all around them they were surrounded by friends and parents who were more successful than my peers. I was told the smart kids would become doctors, and the dumb ones accountants (what I am, lol). I find it interesting when I visit the US with work, and I sit at a table, and US colleagues talk about which university they went to, and which ones their kids will go to. The identity with school is so strong, even down to what sports they support. I'm not so sure it's a good thing.
    I think it all has to do with people's tendency to stereotype, typecast, or 'class' (classify) people. It's a lazy way to think about people one encounters. Make a quick judgement about someone and run with it. Stamp a PhD after someone's name and that creates an impression among others and gives that person a "free pass" in term of people's critical eye. "Like hires like", tribalism, racism, or whatever it is, people like or dislike others based on their stated or perceived memberships. It's basically all about "branding", brand management and product differentiation. Harvard or Yale grads likely just have to mention their alma-matter in the US to have doors opened for them.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    With exams soon to make up a smaller percentage of high school marks, it seems that the way to great grades is to go to a softie school that gives nice marks, not an academic one like Scona:

    http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch...ml?id=10904281

    Sorta sad I think.
    What an embarrassingly elitist attitude. Wahh! My smart and privileged child will have to work harder throughout the semester to achieve better grades instead of working hard studying for a week to receive half of their grade! Curse these other peasant kids and their "dumb" schools that receive easier course work grades!

    I thought the whole purpose of schools such as Old Strathcona is that they are tougher, and require much more work and academic effort to excel at. If your child cannot perform well enough academically that they're unable to reach the set post-secondary program grade threshold, perhaps they should not have been attending that school in the first place. Nobody (besides perhaps the parent) is forcing any child to attend a tougher academic school.

  24. #24

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    I've been through one of these certain unnamed academic schools, but don't tell anyone. I don't feel like my marks were ever really skewed or unfair. If you assume that "dumb" schools exist, then please don't try and send your kids who are already good in school there to get better marks because there is nothing more boring than being way ahead of your class. I think the single worst thing for the development of a child is to be cynically shuttled from program to program for "maximum future success".

    Quote Originally Posted by nickv View Post
    Nobody (besides perhaps the parent) is forcing any child to attend a tougher academic school.
    It's the parents. These guys were raised not to say "no" and to get to Harvard/to Yale/fabulously rich and there are fits after every new batch of released marks because that 89% will ruin your future. Unfortunately there's not much of a "self-motivated" feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    I find it amusing that people believe "bad" (read: low-income neighbourhood) schools are "soft".

    In reality you'll find the most grade-adjustment, lax discipline, and straight up cheating at academic schools. The pressure pushes kids to cheat, and the "prestige" of the school leads them to cover things up or manipulate enrollment to keep up appearances.

    For an example you can look at one particular "prestigious" school in Edmonton that starts with an S and ends with an a, I'll leave it up to you to figure out which one. They routinely cover up drug abuse, cheating, etc in the school to keep their "unblemished" record.

    Long story short, "academic excellence" schools are hotbeds of cheating, grade manipulation, and zero discipline for things like drug/alcohol abuse. "Bad" schools don't have to worry about keeping up a prestigous name, and they actually discipline the students. The "bad" schools just look worse because they have so many students with zero home support and terrible family lives, and this translates to poor school performance.
    It turns out that most of the rumours aren't true. There is no recreational drug or alcohol abuse because nobody has any fun, or can even think about having fun. Believe me. The only drug abuse will be from stimulants so people can stay up even later to work even harder - everyone is always moaning about only getting three hours of sleep so something has to give. And there is not a lot of grade adjustment - if there was, I would definitely definitely know. The teachers are very good, it's the students who you have to watch out for.

    Cheating happens as often as it's allowed to be gotten away with. Someone who would cheat to get 100% instead of 99% is much more terrifying than someone who would cheat to get 65% instead of 0%. It only happens when it can absolutely gotten away with so it's hard to tell, but this is one case where the administration is more interested in stopping a behaviour instead of just trying to cover it up. Really.

    All trouble is indeed covered up, but the depressing truth is that high academic standards = high personal standards and most of these "miscreants" have been forced to publicly apologize for things like goofing around with laser pointers. The truth is boring.
    Last edited by legitprivilege; 18-04-2015 at 07:25 PM.

  25. #25

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    I'm assuming it is Old Scona Academic, not Scona you are referring to here, as Strathcona (the one without the 'old'), has been dubbed "the party school" among Edmonton's teen population. Any who, I think that going to a school that is more academically challenging (if the student is interested in/exceeds in academics) will allow for greater accomplishment. I unfortunately cannot attend Old Scona, as I live on the opposite side of the city, but am doing the IB diploma programme at a highly recognized high school. I certainly have the grades to get into Old Scona (99% overall average), and I think it would help me succeed a greater amount, as it would provide me with a greater number of academic extra curricular activities and resources, but I don't because of where I live. In conclusion, I think students should be put in a school where they can excel, as well as challenge themselves in, not one where they can get easy grades.

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