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Thread: It's Time For A Living Wage. Here's What Might Happen

  1. #201

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    Warren Buffett's Right But Not Correct; Raise the EITC, Not The Minimum Wage

    “...
    Dan Bigman here at Forbes discusses Warren Buffett's recent Wall Street Journal piece making his views known.
    Improving education, won’t work fast enough, or go far enough, he said. And fighting to raise the minimum wage—currently in vogue among many on the left—won’t bridge the gap either, he says, and may actually backfire by hurting employment. “The better answer,” he said, is an expansion of the earned income tax credit, a federal tax credit targeted at working class Americans which gives them a credit starting with the first dollar they earn and rises until it hits a ceiling, then phases out from there.


    To be right about the minimum wage and the EITC is one thing. But to be correct, in this abuse of mine of the language, is to be offering the best solution we have to the problem we're discussing. That problem being what we see as the distressingly low wages at the bottom end of the US labour market. So, what's the best solution to this? As always, the best solution to low wages is full employment. As I keep saying far too often, even Karl Marx got this right. It is the competition between capitalists for the labour they can exploit to make their profits which raises the workers' wages. And if there's that reserve army of the unemployed out there that the capitalists can hire from then they don't have to compete. So, to raise the workers' wages we want to get unemployment down to where there is no such reserve army. Given that it takes time to leave one job and find another, another that is right for both employer and employee (this is called "frictional unemployment" and will always be with us) this doesn't mean a reported unemployment rate of 0%.
    Exactly what it is, before inflation starts to really take off, is an unknown: it's something we can only observe in retospect, not even calculate in advance. But current estimates are that it's perhaps 5%, 5.5% in the current US economy. ...”


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...-minimum-wage/








    USA but some applicability:


    Just Why Are The Unions Supporting A Rise In The Minimum Wage?


    ”The minimum wage is an incredibly inefficient way to help the poor because many of the gains go to households that are not in or even near poverty and because the increases in labor costs lead to price increases that must be paid by customers who are often the same low-wage workers supposedly being helped. Still, President Obama has backed that option rather than the seemingly superior policy of increasing the Earned Income Tax Credit. Many, including me, suspect his preference for a minimum wage increase has more to do with the many union contracts that include automatic raises or renegotiations tied to the minimum wage.
    It's worth reading that post thoroughly as it helps to explain just why the minimum wage is such an inefficient anti-poverty measure. Quite apart from anything else some 50% of any serious rise in the minimum wage would never actually reach our hypothetical single Mom as her taxes would rise and her benefits fall, meaning that she would actually be facing a higher marginal tax rate than billionaires. And yes, we do indeed think that the Laffer Curve applies to poor people as well as rich ones. Marginal tax rates that are "too high" discourage working.


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...-minimum-wage/
    Bolding is mine





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    Last edited by KC; 05-01-2018 at 10:14 PM.

  2. #202

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    ^It seems to me Warren Buffet wants companies that pay low wages to stay that way. He wants to absolve them from paying higher wages and pass the responsibility onto the government to pay people a guaranteed minimum income or give them larger tax breaks. We all know the government(s) derive their money from the taxpayers. In other words, let's give businesses a free pass on their low wage practices and pass the burden onto the tax payer to pay more taxes to pay for minimum income programs. Of course Buffet's a billionaire businessman who probably will not spend all his money in his lifetime.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^It seems to me Warren Buffet wants companies that pay low wages to stay that way. He wants to absolve them from paying higher wages and pass the responsibility onto the government to pay people a guaranteed minimum income or give them larger tax breaks. We all know the government(s) derive their money from the taxpayers. In other words, let's give businesses a free pass on their low wage practices and pass the burden onto the tax payer to pay more taxes to pay for minimum income programs. Of course Buffet's a billionaire businessman who probably will not spend all his money in his lifetime.
    You’re pretty much on the mark. It’s a value choice by society. you can raise minimum wages, reduce jobs and then deal with the fallout of resulting unemployed, and permanently disappearing job options, or society can enable more people to work, have more employment, more spending, and fewer messed up lives through subsidies. (Government regularly sets up youth employment incentive programs etc and there’s no great debate over them and their use of taxpayer money. Same with retraining and job creation initiatives. It’s “government trying to pick winners” by helping those (individuals and businesses) lacking the requisite free market requirements.


    Similarly Germany in 2008/09 and on, prevented mass layoffs and a downward spiral in the economy by havjnv taxpayers essentially paying wages of vulnerable employees. Their economy rebounded quickly.


    As for Buffett, he’s 87 yrs old. His partner Charlie Munger is 94 years old. Both are giving away fortunes. Buffett’s salary at his company for years if not a decade or two, was $100,000, but he’d saved some money on the side. They both speak their minds and have a good, non-ideological, but instead very pragmatic grasp on how things work.


    Not minimum wage. But shows how things work:

    '2 years ago we were making a reasonable living. Now, I haven't been paid in a month'

    CBC News
    11 Hours Ago
    http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/c...gary-1.4474410
    Last edited by KC; 05-01-2018 at 10:57 PM.

  4. #204
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    Globe and Mail: Alberta hasn't suffered for raising the minimum wage
    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...ticle37517324/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Meanwhile the Horton/Joyce's are relaxing in their Florida mansion proud of their latest accomplishments.

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    It's a business, did anyone expect them to do nothing?

    Small businesses in AB are hurting, and waiting, some of them will not be voting NDP in 2019.

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    Even Pizza Pizza (Pizza 73) has been in the offshore job market and they've been exporting more Canadian jobs abroad. Most likely when minimum wage gets to $15 next October, We're going to see more of what Tim Horton's has just done.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  8. #208

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    The Tim Horton's franchise answers to it's shareholders. It will make excuses to it's workers of how/what/when and why it should not raise their wages.
    Like most companies they would rather keep the money for the shareholders than the staff. When it comes to the bottom line it's usually the little guy who is shafted.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  9. #209
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    Almost all companies, answer to shareholders. They wouldn't be in business otherwise. I've certainly noticed what a difference my 50 hour paycheck makes from $12.20 to $13.60. What the minimum wage increase will mean to low income seniors like myself relying on their gis, will give us less part time job options when more companies like Pizza and Tim's get to $15/hour. Btw, Pizza's advertising $24 "Holiday helper" wont be $24 anymore, more like $34.

    My wife is a senior employee at the call centre here dt and she says the $24 advertised Holiday Helper is off the menu. Look for a lot of that on this afternoon's Oilers game in Chicago.

    Speaking of which......
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  10. #210

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    ^..................and I sincerely hope that when Alberta's minimum wage hits $15 in September that the Federal government does not start to claw back some of your GIS. Tater Tot has to somehow balance his budget. Oh wait......................




    ............there he is, balancing the budget.


    https://www.google.ca/search?q=trude...=1515373928150
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  11. #211
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    ^ Ha, ha. Thanks

    It takes about a year to get on GIS, so I'm thinking in September. Its not guaranteed for everybody, only low income seniors. The good news is GIS is not taxable income like ei or cpp/oas or my job. Now if boy blunder, decides to abolish the cpp but makes it so anyone 65+ that has a job wont have that as taxable income might be a trade off some how.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^..................and I sincerely hope that when Alberta's minimum wage hits $15 in September that the Federal government does not start to claw back some of your GIS. Tater Tot has to somehow balance his budget. Oh wait......................




    ............there he is, balancing the budget.


    https://www.google.ca/search?q=trude...=1515373928150

    He needs our money!

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    Maybe he can get a loan from the Ontario pension fund, or Bombardier

    Is Boeing still good for the money?
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  14. #214

    Default The inconvenient truths of the $15 minimum wage: Business can’t just ‘make more money'

    Basically, its all a big experiment:


    It’s not an ironclad rule that higher minimum wages necessarily lead to layoffs. A vast array of U.S. studies, for instance, have found little to no “disemployment” after modest increases to the minimum wage. Sometimes, the employment rate has even gone up. However, Canadian studies are more worrisome. In Ontario, the Fiscal Accountability Office has forecast that the province will suffer job losses of 50,000 as a result of the minimum wage. TD Bank pegged Ontario’s damage at 90,000 jobs by 2020. The Bank of Canada has estimated that by 2019, Canada will have about 60,000 fewer jobs as a result of provincial minimum wage hikes. Ever since the 1990s, in fact, Canadian studies on minimum wage hikes have repeatedly failed to match the promising results found in U.S. studies, and have usually found evidence of job losses. In short, a $15 minimum wage is unlikely to come without costs. The likely forecast is that some Canadians will get a pay raise, others will get a layoff notice and still others will simply never get hired. A common misconception from the anti-$15 crowd is that most minimum wage workers are just suburban teens looking to make some extra pin money. In reality, analysis by the left-leaning Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives estimates that in Ontario only 34 per cent of minimum wage workers are of high school age. However, as one of the least skilled demographics in the workforce, teens are well-placed to be hit particularly hard by job losses. And not all those teens are living comfortably in the suburbs. “A higher minimum wage may paradoxically result in more poverty as teen unemployment results in a drop in household income among low-income families,” concluded one 2009 study of employment trends by the University of Waterloo.

    ...

    The uncertainties are enormous

    Minimum wages have generally risen slowly: a quarter here, 50 cents there. By contrast, Ontario’s minimum wage will rise 29 per cent (from $11.60 to $15) within the span of a year. Not only is the province raising the minimum wage to a level that is proportionally higher than anything known before, but it is doing it within an incredibly short timeline. These are uncharted waters and a lot of the existing data on modest minimum wage increases simply don’t apply. “It’s much more likely that there will be job losses in Ontario since many of the offsetting factors may not be able to operate so quickly,” said Tombe. There are also vast regional differences to consider. Alberta’s move to $15 an hour will likely have relatively little effect because the province is already home to some of the highest wages in the country. By contrast, it’s a much bigger deal in a Northern Ontario town where houses cost $100,000. Ultimately, a move to a $15 minimum wage is very much a giant experiment.


    http://nationalpost.com/news/the-inc...-wage-increase

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    Tim Hortons breakfast menu prices went up a bit due to minimum wage dispute in Ontario

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-...wage-1.4483543
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  16. #216

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    I think there seems to be some backlash brewing in Ontario over some franchise owners. If it gets any worse there could be boycotts.
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  18. #218

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    Pfft. I've been boycotting Tim's long before it was cool.

    /hipstermodeoff
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  19. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagators63 View Post
    Tim Hortons breakfast menu prices went up a bit due to minimum wage dispute in Ontario

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/tim-...wage-1.4483543
    That's not what Tim's is saying...

    However, Tim Hortons said the new price hikes aren't connected to the minimum wage increase.


    "Regular adjustments to menu prices are a normal part of the restaurant business," said a spokesperson in an email to CBC News. "Many factors are considered when determining the final price of each menu offering and prices may vary by region."


    The chain previously raised prices on some hot beverage and breakfast menu items in August, less than six months ago.


    An employee at a location in the Greater Toronto Area told CBC News he noticed a price increase this week of about 20 cents on some breakfast sandwiches.

  20. #220

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    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...7-682f228dd65e

    Restaurant closing in Calgary blaming NDP for its policies.

  21. #221

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    Oh for the days of the Conservatives where restaurants never went under. And, just to be clear, they're not located in the city. The article states that they pay their taxes to the county.

    And then there's this:

    But Amber Ruddy of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business said Alberta can expect to see more closures driven by government policy.


    “We didn’t have some of these labour policies, it was the Alberta advantage, which is gone now,” said Ruddy.
    Ah yes, the Alberta Advantage. Pay people serving and cooking a $40 steak starvation wages.

    Rule of thumb in the restaurant biz. The half life of a restaurant is 2 years. That is, if you start with 100 restaurants (not fast food places), in 2 years you'll have 50. in 4 years, 25. In 6 years, 12. Sometimes it's a little higher, sometimes a little lower but that's fairly close.

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    Someone ought to tell all the new and successful restaurants in Edmonton's downtown, Oliver, Whyte Ave, and SE/SW (and as far out as Beaumont!) that are winning awards that they should be going out of business instead. They apparently missed the memo.

  23. #223

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    New restaurants are a dime a dozen. Let's see how many of them are still around in 2 years.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Can't remember if I posted this before, but my friends at Variant Edition support the minimum wage increases and has retained the same part-time help each year. And yet they say they get called bad business people by some others.

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  25. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...7-682f228dd65e

    Restaurant closing in Calgary blaming NDP for its policies.
    Interesting ... a more upscale restaurant like this one would think might not be as affected by the minimum wage increases unless they are paying their staff more poorly than it might appear.

    More affordable dining places seem to do ok in these more challenging economic times, but those (more so in Calgary than Edmonton) that relied on the corporate expense account oil and gas crowd seem to be having quite a bit of trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...7-682f228dd65e

    Restaurant closing in Calgary blaming NDP for its policies.
    They arent the only one, and they wont be the last. They have asked Notley to scale back, but she's steadfast in her decision, no matter servers earn big tips, dishwashers do not..
    A restaurant owner was interviewed on the radio..( he spoke for a number of Edmonton restaurants) he called about their bottom line, and taxes, lots of taxes...the carbon tax does not help

  27. #227
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    Restaurants closing, new restaurants opening is a fact of life in the food services sector.

    Guess I'd be more concerned if bars and restaurant sector receipts and employment was on a downward track compared to the economy as a whole. But this is not the case.

    For example, receipts for eating and drinking establishments in Alberta have increased from $731 million in October 2015 (when the minimum wage increases started) to $780 million in October 2017 (Source: CANSIM 355-0006).

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Restaurants closing, new restaurants opening is a fact of life in the food services sector.

    Guess I'd be more concerned if bars and restaurant sector receipts and employment was on a downward track compared to the economy as a whole. But this is not the case.

    For example, receipts for eating and drinking establishments in Alberta have increased from $731 million in October 2015 (when the minimum wage increases started) to $780 million in October 2017 (Source: CANSIM 355-0006).
    Here's one from ATB, probably using the same or similar data: https://www.atb.com/learn/economics/...o-impress.aspx



    It's actually pretty interesting that the recession hardly even shows up in that data, as it would appear to be swamped by the ever increasing trend of people cooking at home less.

    If restaurants have to raise their prices to make the bottom line work, then so be it. They're all in the same boat as their competition in terms of the new minimum wage and/or carbon tax. Except for Lloydminster, I guess.

  29. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...7-682f228dd65e

    Restaurant closing in Calgary blaming NDP for its policies.
    They arent the only one, and they wont be the last. They have asked Notley to scale back, but she's steadfast in her decision, no matter servers earn big tips, dishwashers do not..
    A restaurant owner was interviewed on the radio..( he spoke for a number of Edmonton restaurants) he called about their bottom line, and taxes, lots of taxes...the carbon tax does not help
    We all get the fact that we pay taxes on a lot of things on a lot of levels. The fact remains that society should not expect lower wage earners to stay at the same income percentage in spite of the cost of living rising for years at a time. The government should overhaul the tax system for small business so that their profit margin stays reasonably healthy but not at the expense of their employees. When I eat out at a restaurant I certainly don't begrudge giving the server a tip. The service would have to be very poor before I did that. No matter what the reason is for working for $15 an hour I doubt they are going to get rich on it. No big problem to me if their tips buys them an extra in life even though it might only be a bottle of bubble bath. Let the low earners have their pay hike and make the government change their taxing policies.
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  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by trick91 View Post
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...7-682f228dd65e

    Restaurant closing in Calgary blaming NDP for its policies.
    They arent the only one, and they wont be the last. They have asked Notley to scale back, but she's steadfast in her decision, no matter servers earn big tips, dishwashers do not..
    A restaurant owner was interviewed on the radio..( he spoke for a number of Edmonton restaurants) he called about their bottom line, and taxes, lots of taxes...the carbon tax does not help
    We all get the fact that we pay taxes on a lot of things on a lot of levels. The fact remains that society should not expect lower wage earners to stay at the same income percentage in spite of the cost of living rising for years at a time. The government should overhaul the tax system for small business so that their profit margin stays reasonably healthy but not at the expense of their employees. When I eat out at a restaurant I certainly don't begrudge giving the server a tip. The service would have to be very poor before I did that. No matter what the reason is for working for $15 an hour I doubt they are going to get rich on it. No big problem to me if their tips buys them an extra in life even though it might only be a bottle of bubble bath. Let the low earners have their pay hike and make the government change their taxing policies.
    I'm betting you have never run your own business, just a guess!
    The NDP won't get in again. because they don't help small businesses, who employ people..smh.

  31. #231

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    I don't really mean to channel Marx here, but if your business requires you to pay your workers as little as legally allowed to stay afloat you're not "running a business" you're exploiting people for personal gain.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  32. #232

  33. #233

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    to be fair, wages was only one of the reasons he listed:

    But he said expenses passed on by suppliers stung by a hike to the carbon tax, combined with increases to the minimum wage and new rules forcing businesses to pay statutory holiday rates even when closed were too much for the Bear’s Den to sustain.

  34. #234

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    When your business model is to make profits by paying your staff as little as possible, you probably shouldn't be in business.

  35. #235

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    All true, but...

    It would have been a great PR move for the NDP to have announced a delay in implementing the $15 minimum, maybe another r step to make the process take one more year. It would probably increase the chance that the minimum wage would stay at $15 after the next election.
    There can only be one.

  36. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    It would probably increase the chance that the minimum wage would stay at $15 after the next election.
    I can imagine how great a PR move it'll be if the UCP rolls back the minimum wage. I'm guessing they'll have to also tie it in with a cutback in social assistance benefits as well as to avoid all those lazy bums on minimum wage going on pogey or welfare & living fat off the taxpayer instead of pulling themselves up by their bootstraps when their hardworking entrepreneur bosses claw back the largesse the NDP forced them to give their employees.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  37. #237

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    ^its unlikely, they will oppose raising it, but they probably won't reduce it (no government generally ever does). What you will see is the provincial carbon tax regime removed.

  38. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I don't really mean to channel Marx here, but if your business requires you to pay your workers as little as legally allowed to stay afloat you're not "running a business" you're exploiting people for personal gain.
    It might just be you are running a low skill / entry level job for young people to get into the workforce / help them out while at university. All this increase is going to do, is create less of those positions as more companies turn to automation, its just accelerating that change. My kids will a few less places to work at while they study than I did.

  39. #239

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    I could put up with the hard work and bootstraps conservatism if they would admit that every single Albertan is one of those lazy bums dependant on government benefits as long as general taxation isn't bringing in enough to run this province. But Noooo, people enjoying services that our taxes don't pay for and fighting hard to keep it that way are the embattled middle class, don't you know?
    There can only be one.

  40. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its unlikely, they will oppose raising it, but they probably won't reduce it (no government generally ever does). What you will see is the provincial carbon tax regime replaced with the exact same system at the federal level, accomplishing nothing except removing our ability to have any control over it & dismantling the efforts built on the back of it while consolidating more power in the Federal Government.
    Fixed that for you.
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  41. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    It might just be you are running a low skill / entry level job for young people to get into the workforce / help them out while at university.
    So you might have what you consider perfectly good reason to exploit someone & that somehow makes it OK? Basically the economic equivalent of "she was asking for it"?

    Gross.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  42. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its unlikely, they will oppose raising it, but they probably won't reduce it (no government generally ever does). What you will see is the provincial carbon tax regime replaced with the exact same system at the federal level, accomplishing nothing except removing our ability to have any control over it & dismantling the efforts built on the back of it while consolidating more power in the Federal Government.
    Fixed that for you.
    Lol, with 39% of people saying Trudeau is doing a bad job versus 37% good, that "Ottawa / Eastern Elites" (but not in respect of their personal vacations) know best best carbon tax won't last long.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-01-2018 at 10:01 AM.

  43. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    I could put up with the hard work and bootstraps conservatism if they would admit that every single Albertan is one of those lazy bums dependant on government benefits as long as general taxation isn't bringing in enough to run this province.
    This is why I'm in favour of a HST in Alberta. I like Alberta & would be willing to pay a little more to ensure it doesn't devolve or backslide.

    Alberta has been very good to me, I could stand to be a little better to it.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  44. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Lol, with 39% of people saying Trudeau is doing a bad job versus 37% good, that "Ottawa / Eastern Elites" (but not for us on our vacations) know best best carbon tax won't last long.
    Oh, we're liking polls again? I assume this'll continue until there's a series of polls that disagree with your rhetoric, at which point they'll go back to being irrelevant again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Try and be a little consistent in your debating, like you are in your deplorability.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  45. #245

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    ^we are going to be just like Australia and France who scrapped their carbon tax after realizing what a mess it made with respect to local companies being able to compete in the world.

  46. #246

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    Me too. Nobody like paying more but a 5% provincial tax is better than the other options that we've been presented, which are:

    a)Making poor/disabled/sick people pay, or

    b)making our children/grandchildren pay.
    There can only be one.

  47. #247

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    ^or, given our government makes the same as an HST anyway from its oil and gas revenues (often much higher, sometimes slightly less, but over time about the same), we could simply reduce our per capita government spending to the same level as BC, which gets better value for their government sector than alberta does.

  48. #248

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    Our NDP government is negotiating (and getting) 3-year wage freezes from public sector unions. Thats' enough to essentially erase our overpayment if you normalize to our generally higher private sector wages.

    We will still need new revenues.
    There can only be one.

  49. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^or, given our government makes the same as an HST anyway from its oil and gas revenues (often much higher, sometimes slightly less, but over time about the same), we could simply reduce our per capita government spending to the same level as BC, which gets better value for their government sector than alberta does.
    I love it when you say that the Alberta advantage of higher-than-average wages shouldn't apply to government workers for reasons you've never been able to explain outside of ideological hatred of unions & public sector employees.

    It's such a terrible idea with transparent motivations, yet you haul it out & blow the dust off it with alarming regularity.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  50. #250

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    ^^or just shut some government departments / cut staff / reduce bonuses to doctors and management / reduce spending to what we can afford, a level per capita, the same as BC. When your credit card is maxed, its more realistic to cut your excess habits than to go out and get a higher paying job.

  51. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^or just shut some government departments / cut staff / reduce spending to what we can afford, a level per capita, the same as BC.
    Wait, we already have less people per-capita in the public sector than any other province & you'd like to cut more out?

    Where would you like the cuts to be?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  52. #252

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    ^I'd start with the people administering the carbon tax, which Trudeau has generously offered to have Ottawa elites do for us. Then I'd start reducing payments to contractors / GP's / and similar to average provincial levels. I'd tell every government department to automate and cut costs down to equivalent per capita BC government department spending. Any minister failing to deliver that would lose their portfolio.
    Last edited by moahunter; 16-01-2018 at 10:25 AM.

  53. #253

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    Of course you would.

    Where next? Seriously, I'd love to know where you think we should be hacking away at the public sector, outside of sassy pot shots at Trudeau.

    E: Where'd this "elites" crap come from?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  54. #254

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    I'd love to start cutting some government spending as well, specifically the amount of corporate welfare & tax relief we give businesses here.

    https://www.policyschool.ca/wp-conte...ada-Lester.pdf

    Surprisingly, given its reputation as a bastion of free enterprise, Alberta is themost prolific subsidizer. In the 2014-15 fiscal year, per person subsidies were$640 in Alberta, about $100 ahead of the next most generous jurisdiction,Québec. Alberta has probably added to its “lead” through measures introducedin the October 2015 Fiscal Update and the 2016 budget. Alberta also stands outby having the least transparent public reporting of business subsidies.
    At the minimum we need drastically improved transparency to find out which companies are on the dole & what we're getting out of the deal as a province by having them get preferential treatment & not having to pay their own way. I mean, isn't that what the free market that conservatives crow about & put on a pedestal is really about?

    Alberta stands out as being the least transparent on business subsidies delivered through spendingprograms. Alberta’s public accounts report only the aggregate value of subsidies by ministry.Programs are not systematically described in the public accounts and detailed information isdifficult to obtain from other sources. Business subsidy programs were identified through accessto information requests submitted to all ministries with business-related responsibilities. Giventhe limited documentation, it was not always possible to determine if a program constitutes abusiness subsidy or if some of the payments were received and spent by non-business entities.Subject to these limitations, I estimate that Alberta government departments delivered $585 millionin business subsidies in 2014–15. Subsidies delivered through refundable tax credits were muchsmaller at $82 million.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  55. #255

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    I was reading an article the other day in regards to nursing homes and long term care facilities. A lot of these nursing homes are privately owned. There was one nursing home/LTCF that the NDP had taken over just recently, somewhere in a smaller community. The person who wrote the article alluded to the health spokesman if the NDP were thinking of taking over nursing homes/LTCF in stead of them being in private hands. The spokes person did not seem to rule this out. Now I'm not sure if this happened how much of a monetary burden it would put on the health system. On the other hand, should these facilities really be run privately where the bottom line is about profit.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^or, given our government makes the same as an HST anyway from its oil and gas revenues (often much higher, sometimes slightly less, but over time about the same), we could simply reduce our per capita government spending to the same level as BC, which gets better value for their government sector than alberta does.
    Using an asset for expenses is great if you have retired and plan on having nothing left over when you die. The province should be thinking differently as they should assume an infinite future.

    The provincial government should have taken that 2% that Harper chopped of the GST to start an HST.

  57. #257
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    I'd support some kind if a HST scheme as long as it was revenue neutral and at around 2%. A hst sounds good on paper but it would depend on where the revenue goes:

    https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blog...ey-is-used-for

    Personally, if a hst happens, I'd like the revenue to go towards helping small business's that are having trouble because of the carbon levy etc. Then a percentage of that to go towards the Heritage trust fund.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  58. #258

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    ^I would like to see any HST simply replace reliance on resource revenue, with that resource revenue then locked into the Heritage Fund. So today it would be deficit reduction - is "borrowing from the future" a revenue source? If so you could call that revenue neutral.
    There can only be one.

  59. #259

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    Regarding "a living wage"

    The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a reverse income tax/ guaranteed minimum income. That's what I would throw most Carbon Tax revenue at (once the budget is balanced), plus a modest income tax increase. The thing is that it would pretty much have to be nation-wide; as it would be replacing both federal programs (Seniors income supplements, child tax benefits....) and provincial benefits (AISH....), as well as to avoid fears of benefit induced migration.

    With a GAI set at a modest level minimum wages would be less of an issue.
    There can only be one.

  60. #260
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    The best explanation I heard against this jump in the wage is that the minimum wage was never meant to be a wage someone could live on or would have to live on for many years....it was meant as an entry level pay for people new to the job, without the experience or skills yet to make them "worth" a higher rate of pay but that higher rate would come once the employee had "proven" himself and acquired the skills, speed, work level to make them more profitable. I can honestly see both sides of the argument....

  61. #261

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    Even the richest person in the world, worth $100,000,000,000 has people working for him that require food stamps just to survive. But, to some here, that makes him a great businessman.

    Hundreds of Amazon employees use food stamps

    "Amazon employs over 6,000 workers in the state, according to the report that looked at data from August 2017. In that month alone, 700 workers received benefits, meaning that one in every 10 of those locals were beneficiaries of the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP). The report revealed that Amazon warehouses also receive significant state and local subsidies.


    "The state and local tax incentives Amazon receives doesn’t include the tens of thousands of dollars its Ohio workers need each month in food benefits," Zach Schiller, a research director at Policy Matters Ohio, said in a release on January 5.


    "When you consider that, the subsidies are even larger," Schiller said."

    http://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/hund...iZdOQ.facebook

  62. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    The best explanation I heard against this jump in the wage is that the minimum wage was never meant to be a wage someone could live on or would have to live on for many years....it was meant as an entry level pay for people new to the job, without the experience or skills yet to make them "worth" a higher rate of pay but that higher rate would come once the employee had "proven" himself and acquired the skills, speed, work level to make them more profitable. I can honestly see both sides of the argument....
    Let's see what FDR had to say about it when he instituted the federal minimum wage in the US, shall we?

    F.D.R. Makes the Case for the Minimum Wage

    Objection: Raising the minimum wage will hurt business and reduce employment.


    “No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” (1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act)


    Objection: $10.10 an hour is too much, maybe $9.


    “By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.” (1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act)


    Objection: Once you add in public assistance and tax credits, $9 an hour is plenty, and business could survive that.


    “Do not let any calamity-howling executive with an income of $1,000 a day, who has been turning his employees over to the Government relief rolls in order to preserve his company’s undistributed reserves, tell you – using his stockholders’ money to pay the postage for his personal opinions — tell you that a wage of $11.00 a week is going to have a disastrous effect on all American industry.” (1938, Fireside Chat, the night before signing the Fair Labor Standards Act that instituted the federal minimum wage)

    https://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com...-minimum-wage/
    And from that well known lefty mag, Forbes.


  63. #263
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    You can see what FDR said,but I've heard small business owners, and they are hurting!

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    Interesting topic, but we have to be very careful about morphing into a welfare state. Look at some of the countries in the EU ( eg, UK), where they have generations of people on welfare, never worked a day in their life. People who are unable to work due to medical issues, sure, they should be helped. But for abled body people 18 -> 65 there should not be a free automatic handout. You get food stamps so you do not starve , you get a little more if you take classes or participate in the community. Giving money to people to do nothing is inherently wrong for A) the person receiving the money and B) the people supplying the money ie, tax payers.

    I have seen cases in the UK where families on the dole get a free house, medical care, and have enough left over to go on a booze filled vacation to Spain, while some people working do not have enough to have the vacation or perks.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/38...000-in-welfare

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Interesting topic, but we have to be very careful about morphing into a welfare state. Look at some of the countries in the EU ( eg, UK), where they have generations of people on welfare, never worked a day in their life. People who are unable to work due to medical issues, sure, they should be helped. But for abled body people 18 -> 65 there should not be a free automatic handout. You get food stamps so you do not starve , you get a little more if you take classes or participate in the community. Giving money to people to do nothing is inherently wrong for A) the person receiving the money and B) the people supplying the money ie, tax payers.

    I have seen cases in the UK where families on the dole get a free house, medical care, and have enough left over to go on a booze filled vacation to Spain, while some people working do not have enough to have the vacation or perks.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/38...000-in-welfare

    The UK has so many handouts, and such a crappy immigration policy, and they have for years and years .There is no inventive for anyone to work, none. Think about how many come to this country, with 6/7 children. I'm paying to have my teeth done, they aren't!
    Last edited by H.L.; 16-01-2018 at 10:16 PM.

  66. #266
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    I'm not proud of it but in ~ 1989, I had to use Welfare here in Edmonton, while waiting for ei (UIC) in between jobs. They actually gave me a $100 Safeway food voucher back then. That was the last time (too the best of my knowledge) Social services/income support, what have you, did that. As far as I know, Alberta Works does not give out the equivalent of food vouchers/stamps. If I recall, we didn't have food banks here in Edmonton until the 1990's.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  67. #267

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    On welfare: As a working taxpayer you pay for various services including insurance-like services the government has put into place. I don’t know if many people in retirement that would say that they are “not proud of” taking their social security or using a hospital etc. It’s there to be used if one meets the criteria.

    As an aside I know people that are hesitant to be seen using coupons. It seems strange to me since the company issued the coupon so why would one not take a lower price if available? However, it had been mentioned to a friend to stop using coupons on dates, or at least first dates, with women because it could have him look cheap. (Bad advice in retrospect because he is very careful with his money and it’s wrong to encourage others to create false impressions.).


    Is It Ever OK To Use A Coupon On Your First Date?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/why-u...ap-move-2012-4
    Last edited by KC; 17-01-2018 at 06:52 AM.

  68. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    If I recall, we didn't have food banks here in Edmonton until the 1990's.
    We've had a food bank longer than anywhere in Canada & it's been in operation since 1981. Yesterday (January 16) was their anniversary.

    https://d10k7k7mywg42z.cloudfront.ne...ugust_2017.pdf
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I'm not proud of it but in ~ 1989, I had to use Welfare here in Edmonton, while waiting for ei (UIC) in between jobs. They actually gave me a $100 Safeway food voucher back then. That was the last time (too the best of my knowledge) Social services/income support, what have you, did that. As far as I know, Alberta Works does not give out the equivalent of food vouchers/stamps. If I recall, we didn't have food banks here in Edmonton until the 1990's.
    Its there for that reason, to help out. Food banks etc have become a way of life for some people. We've always donated, and we give food to hope mission.

  70. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Is It Ever OK To Use A Coupon On Your First Date?
    So we're talking about Groupon and stuff?

    I'm going to go with yes. But then again, I'm one of those people that buy extra gift cards for myself during Christmas because they give you a free juice/6 inch sub/coupon for a burger.

    I would not go planning my dates around what coupon I have. But if we're going somewhere and I have the coupon on me, I'm using it.

  71. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Is It Ever OK To Use A Coupon On Your First Date?
    So we're talking about Groupon and stuff?

    I'm going to go with yes. But then again, I'm one of those people that buy extra gift cards for myself during Christmas because they give you a free juice/6 inch sub/coupon for a burger.

    I would not go planning my dates around what coupon I have. But if we're going somewhere and I have the coupon on me, I'm using it.
    I was talking long before groupon but I guess same thing. ...and the question comes from that article.

    It’s that perception of priorities or the old ‘real or perceived conflict of interest’ thing that can do in those first impressions.
    Last edited by KC; 17-01-2018 at 12:45 PM.

  72. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Is It Ever OK To Use A Coupon On Your First Date?
    So we're talking about Groupon and stuff?

    I'm going to go with yes. But then again, I'm one of those people that buy extra gift cards for myself during Christmas because they give you a free juice/6 inch sub/coupon for a burger.

    I would not go planning my dates around what coupon I have. But if we're going somewhere and I have the coupon on me, I'm using it.
    Good for you. I say yes, nothing wrong in that at all.

  73. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Is It Ever OK To Use A Coupon On Your First Date?
    So we're talking about Groupon and stuff?

    I'm going to go with yes. But then again, I'm one of those people that buy extra gift cards for myself during Christmas because they give you a free juice/6 inch sub/coupon for a burger.

    I would not go planning my dates around what coupon I have. But if we're going somewhere and I have the coupon on me, I'm using it.
    My thought, and this is a bit of a stretch, but it has nothing to do with being cheap but it does give the perception that you were less interested in the date and more in using the coupon. Having a coupon with you means you made a conscious effort to bring/use a coupon. Were you thinking more about the coupon in planning the date than the date itself?

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    If I recall, we didn't have food banks here in Edmonton until the 1990's.
    We've had a food bank longer than anywhere in Canada & it's been in operation since 1981. Yesterday (January 16) was their anniversary.

    https://d10k7k7mywg42z.cloudfront.ne...ugust_2017.pdf
    Thanks Noodle.

    I was working in the 1980's and for the most part in the 1990's, so in the 80's the whole concept of a food bank was totally off my radar.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  75. #275

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    ^^Exactly.

    It's more offensive (to me) that you're planning the date around the coupon. Kinda like...if the date doesn't go well, consolation prize: the dinner wasn't expensive.

    Completely different if I said, "Lets go to Restaurant ABC" and you just so happen to have a coupon/or immediately go to groupon and buy one.


  76. #276
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    I'm not all up on Groupon's, but they don't sound like food stamps or vouchers.

    I'm an Audrey's books book club member, and get points/dollars added to my total and once I reach $20 I can cash it in on a new book or 2. This Gropon thing sounds something like that.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  77. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I'm not all up on Groupon's, but they don't sound like food stamps or vouchers.

    I'm an Audrey's books book club member, and get points/dollars added to my total and once I reach $20 I can cash it in on a new book or 2. This Gropon thing sounds something like that.
    Groupon for restaurants is more like...

    Usual cost for appetizer + main = $40
    You can buy a groupon for $30 for said appetizer + main.
    Condition: You need to use it by a certain date. Failing to do so doesn't mean that voucher that your brought is still worth $30.00.

    (You basically never lose money, unless you don't use it.)

  78. #278

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    Meanwhile, Sears comes up nearly $300 million short on it's pension obligations so it gives twice as much to the shareholders. So the shareholders, the owners of the company, lined their pockets at the expense of people who had paid into the pension plan.

    Sears Canada Paid Hundreds Of Millions In Dividends As Pension Fund Suffered

    TORONTO — The court appointed monitor for Sears Canada's insolvency says it is reviewing millions of dollars the company paid in dividends while its pension fund fell short.


    FTI Consulting Canada Inc. filed a report Monday with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that says it will review some transactions, payments and dividends entered into, made or declared by the company before they filed for protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.


    The monitor identifies a $102 million dividend payment on Dec. 31, 2012 and a $509 million dividend payment on Dec. 6, 2013 as two transactions of interest.


    When the department store chain sought approval to liquidate in 2017, it was grappling with a more than $260 million shortfall in its pension plan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01...ef=ca-homepage

  79. #279

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    Quote Originally Posted by rupikhalon001 View Post
    Interesting topic, but we have to be very careful about morphing into a welfare state. Look at some of the countries in the EU ( eg, UK), where they have generations of people on welfare, never worked a day in their life. People who are unable to work due to medical issues, sure, they should be helped. But for abled body people 18 -> 65 there should not be a free automatic handout. You get food stamps so you do not starve , you get a little more if you take classes or participate in the community. Giving money to people to do nothing is inherently wrong for A) the person receiving the money and B) the people supplying the money ie, tax payers.

    I have seen cases in the UK where families on the dole get a free house, medical care, and have enough left over to go on a booze filled vacation to Spain, while some people working do not have enough to have the vacation or perks.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/38...000-in-welfare
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    ^^Exactly.

    It's more offensive (to me) that you're planning the date around the coupon. Kinda like...if the date doesn't go well, consolation prize: the dinner wasn't expensive.

    Completely different if I said, "Lets go to Restaurant ABC" and you just so happen to have a coupon/or immediately go to groupon and buy one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Meo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I'm not all up on Groupon's, but they don't sound like food stamps or vouchers.

    I'm an Audrey's books book club member, and get points/dollars added to my total and once I reach $20 I can cash it in on a new book or 2. This Gropon thing sounds something like that.
    Groupon for restaurants is more like...

    Usual cost for appetizer + main = $40
    You can buy a groupon for $30 for said appetizer + main.
    Condition: You need to use it by a certain date. Failing to do so doesn't mean that voucher that your brought is still worth $30.00.

    (You basically never lose money, unless you don't use it.)

    I hope everyone is also noticing the various parallels ( and insights ) into the issue of somehow providing a living wage / support for those that need it.





    Better Than Raising the Minimum Wage
    Help Americans who need it with a major, carefully crafted expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.
    By Warren Buffett
    May 21, 2015
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/better-...age-1432249927


    Andrew Coyne: Why a guaranteed minimum income is a better option than raising the minimum wage
    BY ANDREW COYNE
    ORIGINALLY PUBLISHED: JAN 5, 2018

    http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andr...e-minimum-wage


    A Better Wage Hike

    Oren Cass • Aug. 19, 2015, at 8:00 a.m.

    Politicians across the ideological spectrum are increasingly focused on using government policy to support the earnings of low-income households. The approach accomplishes two goals at once: not only helping those working in low-wage jobs, but also making such work more attractive and drawing more unemployed workers into the job market. And yet the best way to it – subsidizing wages – is the one nobody talks about. ...”

    “For these reasons, economists tend to dislike minimum wage increases and argue instead for ...”

    A wage subsidy sounds expensive, but in reality it is money that America already spends on the EITC and on a host of other anti-poverty programs that cost a combined $1 trillion per year. Using more of that money to put wages into the pockets of low-income workers would be a far better way to promote work, support low-income households and combat poverty.

    ...”


    https://www.usnews.com/opinion/econo...e-minimum-wage
    Last edited by KC; 17-01-2018 at 08:42 PM.

  80. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Meanwhile, Sears comes up nearly $300 million short on it's pension obligations so it gives twice as much to the shareholders. So the shareholders, the owners of the company, lined their pockets at the expense of people who had paid into the pension plan.

    Sears Canada Paid Hundreds Of Millions In Dividends As Pension Fund Suffered

    TORONTO — The court appointed monitor for Sears Canada's insolvency says it is reviewing millions of dollars the company paid in dividends while its pension fund fell short.


    FTI Consulting Canada Inc. filed a report Monday with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that says it will review some transactions, payments and dividends entered into, made or declared by the company before they filed for protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.


    The monitor identifies a $102 million dividend payment on Dec. 31, 2012 and a $509 million dividend payment on Dec. 6, 2013 as two transactions of interest.


    When the department store chain sought approval to liquidate in 2017, it was grappling with a more than $260 million shortfall in its pension plan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01...ef=ca-homepage
    It's the same with any white collar crime, the perps very rarely go to jail. Bankers, CEO, shareholders, stock exchange traders can underhandedly fleece people of millions and get away with it. Walking away with someone's pension or life savings after they have worked for years is just despicable.
    Last edited by Gemini; 18-01-2018 at 06:22 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  81. #281
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    $40 for a appetizer? I don't think very many people making min wage can afford that, yeash. Food stamps/Groupon's dont even come close.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  82. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Meanwhile, Sears comes up nearly $300 million short on it's pension obligations so it gives twice as much to the shareholders. So the shareholders, the owners of the company, lined their pockets at the expense of people who had paid into the pension plan.

    Sears Canada Paid Hundreds Of Millions In Dividends As Pension Fund Suffered

    TORONTO — The court appointed monitor for Sears Canada's insolvency says it is reviewing millions of dollars the company paid in dividends while its pension fund fell short.


    FTI Consulting Canada Inc. filed a report Monday with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that says it will review some transactions, payments and dividends entered into, made or declared by the company before they filed for protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.


    The monitor identifies a $102 million dividend payment on Dec. 31, 2012 and a $509 million dividend payment on Dec. 6, 2013 as two transactions of interest.


    When the department store chain sought approval to liquidate in 2017, it was grappling with a more than $260 million shortfall in its pension plan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01...ef=ca-homepage

    Unless I'm mistaken, unfunded liability doesn't mean there is nothing in the Pension Plan, it just means they will not get the full benefit (assuming a defined benefit pension plan). There's no detail into what the unfunded liability is made up of. Its all assumptions but it could be the employers contribution, which still sucks for the employee, but the employee would still get their contributions, or maybe not, again no details. HuffPo tends to go super sensational in their columns.

    Just to add, the share price of Sears Canada is now $0. The shareholders didn't line their pockets, they got a dividend which would have been a small percent of there share price, the money they put into it.

  83. #283

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    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...t-to-shut-down

    Atlantic Trap and Gill closing down.

    It’s closing because of a drop in business and rising costs, partially because of the minimum-wage increase, Thorne said.

  84. #284
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    ^ Adam Rozenhart wins the internet

    https://twitter.com/bingofuel/status/954011254158344192

    Every one of these stories should just include the following: The owner said, “I just really wasn’t insulating my business from any form of change. I found something that worked and I thought it would work forever.”
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  85. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacoblost View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Meanwhile, Sears comes up nearly $300 million short on it's pension obligations so it gives twice as much to the shareholders. So the shareholders, the owners of the company, lined their pockets at the expense of people who had paid into the pension plan.

    Sears Canada Paid Hundreds Of Millions In Dividends As Pension Fund Suffered

    TORONTO — The court appointed monitor for Sears Canada's insolvency says it is reviewing millions of dollars the company paid in dividends while its pension fund fell short.


    FTI Consulting Canada Inc. filed a report Monday with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that says it will review some transactions, payments and dividends entered into, made or declared by the company before they filed for protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.


    The monitor identifies a $102 million dividend payment on Dec. 31, 2012 and a $509 million dividend payment on Dec. 6, 2013 as two transactions of interest.


    When the department store chain sought approval to liquidate in 2017, it was grappling with a more than $260 million shortfall in its pension plan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01...ef=ca-homepage

    Unless I'm mistaken, unfunded liability doesn't mean there is nothing in the Pension Plan, it just means they will not get the full benefit (assuming a defined benefit pension plan). There's no detail into what the unfunded liability is made up of. Its all assumptions but it could be the employers contribution, which still sucks for the employee, but the employee would still get their contributions, or maybe not, again no details. HuffPo tends to go super sensational in their columns.

    Just to add, the share price of Sears Canada is now $0. The shareholders didn't line their pockets, they got a dividend which would have been a small percent of there share price, the money they put into it.
    While under paying by $260 million the money in the pension plan. Sure, the shareholders stock is now worthless but they had plenty of time to get out. The people with pensions were paying into it while they worked there and Sears didn't live up to their obligations. But sure, let's worry more about the owners than the people who worked there for years or decades and got stiffed.

  86. #286

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacoblost View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Meanwhile, Sears comes up nearly $300 million short on it's pension obligations so it gives twice as much to the shareholders. So the shareholders, the owners of the company, lined their pockets at the expense of people who had paid into the pension plan.

    Sears Canada Paid Hundreds Of Millions In Dividends As Pension Fund Suffered

    TORONTO — The court appointed monitor for Sears Canada's insolvency says it is reviewing millions of dollars the company paid in dividends while its pension fund fell short.


    FTI Consulting Canada Inc. filed a report Monday with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that says it will review some transactions, payments and dividends entered into, made or declared by the company before they filed for protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.


    The monitor identifies a $102 million dividend payment on Dec. 31, 2012 and a $509 million dividend payment on Dec. 6, 2013 as two transactions of interest.


    When the department store chain sought approval to liquidate in 2017, it was grappling with a more than $260 million shortfall in its pension plan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01...ef=ca-homepage

    Unless I'm mistaken, unfunded liability doesn't mean there is nothing in the Pension Plan, it just means they will not get the full benefit (assuming a defined benefit pension plan). There's no detail into what the unfunded liability is made up of. Its all assumptions but it could be the employers contribution, which still sucks for the employee, but the employee would still get their contributions, or maybe not, again no details. HuffPo tends to go super sensational in their columns.

    Just to add, the share price of Sears Canada is now $0. The shareholders didn't line their pockets, they got a dividend which would have been a small percent of there share price, the money they put into it.
    While under paying by $260 million the money in the pension plan. Sure, the shareholders stock is now worthless but they had plenty of time to get out. The people with pensions were paying into it while they worked there and Sears didn't live up to their obligations. But sure, let's worry more about the owners than the people who worked there for years or decades and got stiffed.
    I'm not an expert in Pensions so maybe someone can explain better than me, but employers are required to make certain annual contributions based on assumptions about how the money invested will grow. I think the unfunded liability may have arisen because interest rates were lower than expected in the last 10 years or so. I think rather than have companies make up the unfunded liability all at once, when it turns out those assumptions are wrong I believe they are allowed to make the shortfall up over a period of time. Of course, Sears Canada ran out of time. However it is also true during this period the shareholder took large dividends and was aware of this unfunded liability. I understand this is going to court, but we also do need better laws to protect pensions and pensioners.

  87. #287

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacoblost View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Meanwhile, Sears comes up nearly $300 million short on it's pension obligations so it gives twice as much to the shareholders. So the shareholders, the owners of the company, lined their pockets at the expense of people who had paid into the pension plan.

    Sears Canada Paid Hundreds Of Millions In Dividends As Pension Fund Suffered

    TORONTO — The court appointed monitor for Sears Canada's insolvency says it is reviewing millions of dollars the company paid in dividends while its pension fund fell short.


    FTI Consulting Canada Inc. filed a report Monday with the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that says it will review some transactions, payments and dividends entered into, made or declared by the company before they filed for protection under the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.


    The monitor identifies a $102 million dividend payment on Dec. 31, 2012 and a $509 million dividend payment on Dec. 6, 2013 as two transactions of interest.


    When the department store chain sought approval to liquidate in 2017, it was grappling with a more than $260 million shortfall in its pension plan.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/01...ef=ca-homepage

    Unless I'm mistaken, unfunded liability doesn't mean there is nothing in the Pension Plan, it just means they will not get the full benefit (assuming a defined benefit pension plan). There's no detail into what the unfunded liability is made up of. Its all assumptions but it could be the employers contribution, which still sucks for the employee, but the employee would still get their contributions, or maybe not, again no details. HuffPo tends to go super sensational in their columns.

    Just to add, the share price of Sears Canada is now $0. The shareholders didn't line their pockets, they got a dividend which would have been a small percent of there share price, the money they put into it.
    While under paying by $260 million the money in the pension plan. Sure, the shareholders stock is now worthless but they had plenty of time to get out. The people with pensions were paying into it while they worked there and Sears didn't live up to their obligations. But sure, let's worry more about the owners than the people who worked there for years or decades and got stiffed.
    I'm not an expert in Pensions so maybe someone can explain better than me, but employers are required to make certain annual contributions based on assumptions about how the money invested will grow. I think the unfunded liability may have arisen because interest rates were lower than expected in the last 10 years or so. I think rather than have companies make up the unfunded liability all at once, when it turns out those assumptions are wrong I believe they are allowed to make the shortfall up over a period of time. Of course, Sears Canada ran out of time. However it is also true during this period the shareholder took large dividends and was aware of this unfunded liability. I understand this is going to court, but we also do need better laws to protect pensions and pensioners.
    For decades management has been notorious for inflating pension return expectations - to levels that are sometimes near impossible based on market history. Boosts corp. earnings as a result - and coincidentally exec bonuses too. The liability builds over time and the next CEO just kicks the can down the road further. Then the govt bails them out as in 2008/09 and regularly through their special pension take over entity.

    How long? Way back in the early 70s I believe Buffett pointed out some great examples of the shenanigans. (Comparing managers between Europe and the US for the same pension, etc)
    Last edited by KC; 18-01-2018 at 09:08 PM.

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