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Thread: Transgender accomodation in our schools

  1. #1

    Default Transgender accomodation in our schools

    Thought I'd start a topic on this after the pathetic meltdown at the Edmonton Catholic school board meeting recently.

    Sounds like Morinville will be converting some washrooms to gender neutral.

    I ask: can we skip right to the part where we just call them "washrooms", and whoever needs to use it, can?
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  2. #2

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    I don't think it was pathetic. People ramped up the emotion and possibly attacked someone with an alternate approach to the 'problem'.

    Anyway, someday kids will wonder why there were always two washrooms, sometimes side by side. It will be like the white vs coloured entrances, etc.

    Eventually too, cameras will likely have to be installed in every washroom because of the sexual assault, harassment issues.
    Last edited by KC; 22-09-2015 at 08:53 PM.

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    The bathrooms should be open to all. But I do question gym locker rooms and such. Changing into swim him wear, equipment etc isn't exactly a modest affair... It's not the same as going into a stall to pee.

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    Yes, but I would find single-sex gym changing rooms just as unnerving. In fact, the one time I did use one (back when I was much younger and slimmer), I was in an agony of self-consciousness.

    Re washrooms. In one place I worked the washrooms were self enclosed with real doors. Almost like your washroom at home. There were several in a group. In that case, I would see nothing needing changing to make them unisex. Though I seem to remember that these were marked as "women" (the ones I used) because there were no urinals.

  5. #5

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    Yeah, the boo hooing at the CSB was pretty pathetic. Then truste Larry Kowalczyk did not help with his comment about transgender people should be looked on as having a mental illness. The idea of setting aside one washroom in a school and deeming it an all gender washroom is not the answer. All of them should be all gender washrooms. If kids are brought up to except that LGBT are part of the fabric of or society we would not be having this conversation.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    ^^when it comes to potentially having to strip down, what you have between your legs counts.

  7. #7

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    Maybe I don't get it but Malls don't make accomodations for transgender washrooms. Neither do hospitals, city facilities, LRT facilities, Stadium, Arena, Rec facilities etc.

    The "oh why isn't there a special washroom for me" complaint can be lodged towards any venue. But conveniently its schools, because schools are always an easy target that no shortage people want to recriminate for whatever reason with any disagreement in policy, practice, etc.

    There isn't any institution in our nation held to higher standards than our schools. But does everybody do their part in maintaining workable parent teacher relationships with a little less recrimination?

    Every school issue made public is a hot, "oh that escalated quickly" topic. Any institution held to this microscopic level of scrutiny would be found miserably wanting. One of the reasons being is almost every parent, almost every child, is a fervent critic at some point if not on an ongoing basis.

    Finally, lets not forget this whole shitstorm issue started relating to the supposed transgender identity of an 8 yr old. Now I don't take this lightly, just that I happen to know that this nature of sexual identity would be realized and acted upon very very rarely statistically by this age. Most 8 yr olds wouldn't have a clue what transgender is unless some informed adult was educating them on the sidelines. With the latter why any adult would help a very young child actualize in this manner at this very young age before identity is anywhere close to established is a complete mystery. But unfortunately one that has resulted in no end of deliberation, attacks, and battles ever since. With rarely any mention of the eliciting instance and any deeper questioning of that. It doesn't help at all that the the fervent knee jerk, even vitriolic reaction of some public lobby groups blew this in a particular direction where the school was immediately seen at grievous fault. Trial and jury by public and agenda opinion. Again without even looking into this deeper to see what might be going on. Are we serving activists with this or children?
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-09-2015 at 10:42 PM.
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  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Yeah, the boo hooing at the CSB was pretty pathetic. Then truste Larry Kowalczyk did not help with his comment about transgender people should be looked on as having a mental illness. The idea of setting aside one washroom in a school and deeming it an all gender washroom is not the answer. All of them should be all gender washrooms. If kids are brought up to except that LGBT are part of the fabric of or society we would not be having this conversation.
    Very young children should be allowed some time to have preconception cognition about sex, sex identity for awhile on their own. Especially in sexual identity matters it should be ideally realized on its own without interference, suggestion, or imposed discussion. Sex education generally occurs at puberty or slightly before that.

    Really having complicated discussions with a very young child about various sexual expression is not only age inappropriate its simply pointless as the child, pre-sexual impulse, wouldn't have much idea what is being talked about or why. Much of it would simply seem nonsensical and elicit nothing but giggles, confusion, or even trauma. Some children who have been targeted by sexual abuse would even perceive very early discussion of sexuality as an eliciting stimulus triggering their own memory of abuse. They could even think that somebody talking to them about matters of sexuality is a potential person of risk to them.

    Adults that are helping an 8 yr old fully realize transgender identity? That's way beyond the curve. Normal first triggers of sexual identity/attraction that are not hetero oriented generally occur at age 10 and older. With most individuals not acting on this until beyond puberty. I think in our society there is a rush to inform children of everything, teach kids everything, every concept, before they are necessarily able to learn it. Sexuality, and identity, is age specific. Its developmental.

    The reality is this is likely the first case of actualized transgender identity of an 8 yr old that the school system has ever encountered. But somehow they're immediately supposed to have facilities and deal with the issue impeccably.

    As per "All gender washrooms" many sexual assaults, child on child, are already perpetrated in school washrooms. Thought has to be given whether same sex washrooms would increase these instances. Theres a lot of uncertainty with this issue and more research/experiments are required. It isn't simply a case of sex segregation for no purpose as people have alleged in the thread. There are risks of having same sex washrooms in schools inhabited by individuals at the height of their impulsivity.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-09-2015 at 11:13 PM.
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  9. #9

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    Schools are a great place to start. When those kids grow into far more tolerant adults than their intolerant parents, the world will be a better place.

    They'll change the malls and hospitals when they are the ones running them.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Schools are a great place to start. When those kids grow into far more tolerant adults than their intolerant parents, the world will be a better place.

    They'll change the malls and hospitals when they are the ones running them.
    A significant part of the issue is a significant crosssection of parents hold schools, teachers to far higher standards then themselves, spouses, sperm donators, relatives, family, etc.

    A society in which all meaningful expectation of rearing children is passed through schools to raise kids to be uniform mass produced automatons is one I would want no part of.

    The family unit is the essential ingredient in any childs life. its the essential ingredient of socialization. In our society failures in socialization certainly start in the home and ends there. Schools just mitigate that when they can.

    Man, we just did away with residential schools and the horror and trauma that that causes and I'm hearing arguments that schools need to be more involved in facets of childrens life?

    if a childs home is intolerant, good luck having a school pave the way to a much different perspective. That's simplistic. The INTOLERANT parent would, and does, often oppose any and all alternative teaching to their child. Which often results in even more ingrained problems, discord, escalation, and the child being the focal point of that. Which in turn results in families that become more "closed unit" (look up the term if you want) and immune to any influence or help from outsiders.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-09-2015 at 11:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    The bathrooms should be open to all. But I do question gym locker rooms and such. Changing into swim him wear, equipment etc isn't exactly a modest affair... It's not the same as going into a stall to pee.
    With proper design, there is no need for segregation of either. Just be sure to equip the toilet stalls and change cubicles with full height walls and gapless doors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    The bathrooms should be open to all. But I do question gym locker rooms and such. Changing into swim him wear, equipment etc isn't exactly a modest affair... It's not the same as going into a stall to pee.
    With proper design, there is no need for segregation of either. Just be sure to equip the toilet stalls and change cubicles with full height walls and gapless doors.
    This. City outdoor pool facilities are doing this now, genderless changerooms with individual (and some family) change cubicles.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Schools are a great place to start. When those kids grow into far more tolerant adults than their intolerant parents, the world will be a better place.

    They'll change the malls and hospitals when they are the ones running them.
    Why just schools? I believe it's already been an issue in other places in society. Is it going to be a long drawn out emotional fight at each and every place with washroom facilities?

    This issue now has broad awareness shouldn't it be a issue that gets broadly and immediately dealt with across all of society, from gas stations to City Halls? Where-ever people move about, it's an issue for them now.

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    Not sure why Replacement brings up sexuality. Transgenderism has nothing to do with sexuality. Completely different.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Not sure why Replacement brings up sexuality. Transgenderism has nothing to do with sexuality. Completely different.
    ? You sound like Bill Clinton. Of course its linked to sexuality, kids wouldn't give a hoot which washroom they used otherwise. It matters to them (we are all sexual creatures), whether they are a "boy" or a "girl" or "unsure / something else than biology". I don't think anyone has an issue with a gay boy using the boys washroom, or gay girl using girls. But kids, rightly or wrongly (probably more wrongly, but its also a bit hard wired), get upset if you have a boy, who thinks he should be a girl, using the girls (or vice versa). Having neutral washrooms seems the obvious solution (albeit its a bit sad for the child having to be different). I guess the issue is, do we define our sex by our biology, or by our feelings? For adults I think most of us can accept now that its feelings (although you do might running into male predators / voyers then re womens washrooms), but for a lot of children, its the biology they see and care about. If its going to be feelings, then you start getting into the issues Replacement talks about - do we then start educating kids at an earlier age than they really need / is best for them?

    Maybe the answer is to make all washrooms genderless / cubicals, its sort of a bit sad losing shared urinals though (and a bit more costly I think). I probably would have liked that as a teen, re girlfriends and having somewhere to play together
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 07:54 AM.

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    ^You're confusing sexuality with gender, which is what etownboarder was saying. You're even agreeing with him.

    And you should be more careful in your pronoun usage, or even using the phrase "thinks [she] should be a girl" because you're making it sound like a choice. Which it really isn't.

    One last edit: The goal is ALL the washrooms being gender neutral, not a single special gender neutral one.
    Last edited by Channing; 23-09-2015 at 07:55 AM.

  17. #17

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    And you should be more careful in your pronoun usage, or even using the phrase "thinks [she] should be a girl" because you're making it sound like a choice. Which it really isn't.
    I guess that usage, I'm not saying its a choice, but rather an exploration of who they are. I'm not sure every child knows especially pre puberty, you are assuming they all do.

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    ^I know they don't all know. I know that its even fluid for some. Some will know earlier, some later, some never.

  19. #19

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    Sex/sexual/gender semantics - Just one more thing I have to get up to speed on.

    Gender

    1 [MASS NOUN] The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones

    1.1 [COUNT NOUN] The members of one or other sex:
    differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...english/gender


    Sexual
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...english/sexual

  20. #20

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    ^^it just seems a bit drastic to me, that every washroom has to become genderless because some people aren't sure or haven't yet paid for their biological change (if they choose to do that). Where does it end? Are sports stadiums going to have to spend a fortune more on washrooms, because they can't have the sort of communal niceties like you see in Commonwealth mens? I doubt women would want to see twenty guys standing around and peeing in the "genderless" washroom, and I'm guessing most guys don't wanna have to wait forever in a line for cubical, or to wait for a turn at the mirror while someone appiles their lipstick.

    Aren't we going to then lose some culural "niceties", between men and women, when the girls go to hang out and talk / apply make up and similar, in a communual space for them, and the guys get to joke while pretending not to look at each other, while they go?
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 08:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^^it just seems a bit drastic to me, that every washroom has to become genderless because some people aren't sure or haven't yet paid for their biological change (if they choose to do that). Where does it end? Are sports stadiums going to have to spend a fortune more on washrooms, because they can't have the sort of communal niceties like you see in Commonwealth mens? I doubt women would want to see twenty guys standing around and peeing in the "genderless" washroom, and I'm guessing most guys don't wanna have to wait forever in a line for cubical, or to wait for a turn at the mirror while someone appiles their lipstick.
    I was so happy with this thread, till this comment. Urinals can be in small cubicles too. No one is really a fan of troughs anyways, no one calls them communal niceties. You can design around problems, rather than just making them up. If the washrooms are gender neutral, than everyone has the same line to wait in. No more BS where the women are lined up out the door while the men aren't. And sinks? You can have the communal sinks without mirrors. And some sinks with mirrors. Looks, you can design for multiple options!

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No more BS where the women are lined up out the door while the men aren't.
    Actually, this will get worse. Right now, in designs, they can make womens washrooms larger to account for this difference. By forcing men to all use cubicals, you are just going to make the line ups longer for everyone. Crazy. I think you also underestimate how important womens washrooms are to women, re the cultural issues around talking about guys, or make up, or similar (haven't you noticed girls always go in "twos", and guys never do?). That's not going to happen in an individual cubical or a shared sink with men.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 08:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No more BS where the women are lined up out the door while the men aren't.
    Actually, this will get worse. Right now, in designs, they can make womens washrooms larger to account for this difference. By forcing men to all use cubicals, you are just going to make the line ups longer for everyone. Crazy. I think you also underestimate how important womens washrooms are to women, re the cultural issues around talking about guys, or make up, or similar (haven't you noticed girls always go in "twos", and guys never do?). That's not going to happen in an individual cubical or a shared sink with men.
    Urinal cubicles. Same wait as a normal urinal. Problem solved. Actually even better, if an event has far more of one gender than the other, the washroom is suddenly far more efficient!

    I don't identify as female, so I'm not going to comment on the cultural important of the bathroom to women. But I don't know that you should be either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    I don't identify as female, so I'm not going to comment on the cultural important of the bathroom to women. But I don't know that you should be either.
    I have had various girlfriends, an ex wife and I have a daughter, I hear plenty about it, I see it in movies, and I observe it when I am out re women going together. Maybe you are in contrast blind to the world around you? I don't think its a coincidence that its often women who are often getting upset about these changes.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 08:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    I don't identify as female, so I'm not going to comment on the cultural important of the bathroom to women. But I don't know that you should be either.
    I have had various girlfriends, an ex wife and a daughter, I here plenty about it. I don't think its a coincidence that its women who are often getting upset about these changes.
    "I know some women" doesn't make you one, or an expert.

    I'd have a couple questions.


    1. Why do they go in groups of two or more? Is it for safety reasons?
    2. Is a bathroom where they want to actually hang out? Or do they feel it's a safe space?

    edit: And those aren't for you to answer, by the way. See the first sentence.
    Last edited by Channing; 23-09-2015 at 08:53 AM. Reason: bolded my edit.

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    ^watch some chic flicks and you will know (hint, its related to make-up, gossip and talking about the guys they are with - i.e. part of the "girl code").

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    Gender is a social construct, merely a set of stereotypes, norms and expectations that we place on the two sexes.

    And some people don't fit precisely in the set of stereotypes that goes with their sex. A few may fit more of the norms of the opposite gender. Only a very few fit perfectly.

    We used to have strong expectations that people work to conform to the gender stereotypes of their sex. Now we encourage doubts about whether their genetic and physiological sex is correct, suggest that rather than being different than other boys/girls they might not be one at all (talk about opening up a whole new approach for bullies). And then once they are confused enough to identify with the opposite sex we give a new set of expectations to conform to, and suggest they get surgery to fix the part that's NOT just a social construct.

    And we call this progress. Why can't we just live with some boys being different from other boys without ceasing to be boys, and some girls different than other girls without ceasing to be girls.

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    Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. An individual's gender identity is established quite early and solidified by the age of about seven.

    My kids school has some gender neutral washrooms and there don't seem to be any problems. My house has a gender neutral washroom and there isn't problem there either.
    Last edited by Paul Turnbull; 23-09-2015 at 09:50 AM.

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    Hmm. Top Dawg's post disappeared. Not sure if he deleted it, or if someone else did. But he asked if there might be a rift in the LGBTQ community because "the trannies are getting uppity and hijacking the agenda". His words paraphrased, not mine!. I do know of a recent example in Calgary where a group of people basically hijacked a long standing outreach organization and forced out the executive director and the board. Only reason I'm aware of it is that a friend of mine was on the board, and she was terrified that she was going to be dragged in front of a human rights tribunal or something else as ridiculous. A lot of it played out on their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/5839945562/

    From the outside looking in and not really knowing the history, it certainly looked like a case of "eating their own".

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    Gender neutral washrooms have existed in every private home I have ever been in. Why not in public facilities?

    Full stop. Really no need for separate bathrooms
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    And we call this progress. Why can't we just live with some boys being different from other boys without ceasing to be boys, and some girls different than other girls without ceasing to be girls.
    I'm ok with that, but you are implying here that a boy who is different from other boys, would still use the boys. That's not what transgender's are asking for, we have boys who are different from other boys wanting to use the girls. I think what you are saying is let the biology decide, and I think that makes sense as men and women do use washrooms differently based on that biology.

    I also don't think all mens and womens, washrooms, need to be all combined, I'm highlighy doubtful its something most people would really want everywhere, especially in nightclubs and bars.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 10:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Gender neutral washrooms have existed in every private home I have ever been in. Why not in public facilities?

    Full stop. Really no need for separate bathrooms
    In fact, when men have their own cubicals they often become truly disgusting. Maybe men would now have to clean up their acts - plus start washing their hands.

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    ^^^ It's way more efficient to build and to clean group washrooms with stalls and a single bank of sinks than it is to build individual washrooms, especially when usage is heavy for short times like in stadiums and yes schools.
    School designers have moved to individual non-gender assigned washrooms for primary schools and preschools because for small kids who can't hold it till break it doesn't require the child to leave the classroom, cutting down on the need for hallway and bathroom supervision. It's also a big advantage for the very little kids who may need help at times.

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    Biology is more than morphology. People with gender dysphoria do have physical differences in brain structure and possibly in their genetics. Accommodating transgender individuals within our culture is letting biology decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I also don't think all mens and womens, washrooms, need to be all combined, I'm highlighy doubtful its something most people would really want everywhere, especially in nightclubs and bars.
    Didn't they do just that at a once very popular Whyte Avenue bar (Rebar) in the 1990s until some sort of municipal inspector told them they had to have separate washrooms?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Biology is more than morphology. People with gender dysphoria do have physical differences in brain structure and possibly in their genetics. Accommodating transgender individuals within our culture is letting biology decide.
    So, just to be clear right now Paul, you would be fine, with a Transgender man who is in his brain a woman, using a womans washroom? That's fine, but are you sure women are comfortable with that? Because it appears girls, in schools, aren't.

    I don't think anyone has a problem with there being gender neutral washrooms. The big case in the US right now though, concerns a boy, who is a girl in his brain, who wants to use the girls, not the gender netural one that is provided. The girls in the school aren't comfortable with that. So why is the solution to eliminate the girls washroom, to take something away? As opposed to asking the boy, who is a girl, to use the boys, and ask the boys to be accepting of that?
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 10:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Komrade View Post
    Gender neutral washrooms have existed in every private home I have ever been in. Why not in public facilities?

    Full stop. Really no need for separate bathrooms
    In fact, when men have their own cubicals they often become truly disgusting. Maybe men would now have to clean up their acts - plus start washing their hands.
    Every time I have talked to someone whose job included cleaning public washrooms they have said the women made a bigger mess then the men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^^so, just to be clear right now Paul, you would be fine, with a Transgender man who is in his brain a woman, using a womans washroom?
    I'm not Paul, but yes. And your pronouns need work.

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    That's fine, but are you sure women are comfortable with that? Because it appears girls, in schools, aren't.
    And also, where are yous seeing that girls in school's aren't okay with this? No one has brought that up yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    And also, where are yous seeing that girls in school's aren't okay with this? No one has brought that up yet.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us...room.html?_r=0

    A transgender high school student in Missouri is facing backlash from her peers after requesting to use the girls’ bathrooms and locker room.
    More than 100 students at Hillsboro High School, about an hour south of St Louis, walked out of class on Monday in protest.
    “I’m hoping this dies down,” said Lila Perry, the 17-year-old who began identifying as a girl publicly in February. “I don’t want my entire senior year to be like this.”

    ...

    Mr. Good said he got involved after hearing about a female student who encountered “an intact male” in the girls’ locker room.
    “It’s a violation of my daughters’ rights to privacy to not have a policy,” he said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    And also, where are yous seeing that girls in school's aren't okay with this? No one has brought that up yet.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us...room.html?_r=0

    A transgender high school student in Missouri is facing backlash from her peers after requesting to use the girls’ bathrooms and locker room.
    More than 100 students at Hillsboro High School, about an hour south of St Louis, walked out of class on Monday in protest.
    “I’m hoping this dies down,” said Lila Perry, the 17-year-old who began identifying as a girl publicly in February. “I don’t want my entire senior year to be like this.”
    In Canada? In Alberta?

    edit: Nevermind. I'm sure you can find Canadian examples. Doesn't make them right.
    Last edited by Channing; 23-09-2015 at 10:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    As opposed to asking the boy, who is a girl, to use the boys, and ask the boys to be accepting of that?
    Stop saying the boy who is a girl. She's a girl. She deserves to use the womens washroom.

    Stop misgendering people

  42. #42

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    ^just because it hasn't happened yet (if it hasn't), doesn't mean schools shouldn't have a policy on it for when it does. The Catholic school board is clearly dealing with this now, hence the thread.

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Stop saying the boy who is a girl. She's a girl. She deserves to use the womens washroom.

    Stop misgendering people
    Sorry, I think everyone on the thread knows what I mean except for you, "the girl who has a penis." Happy?

    You are arguing that because there are girls with a penis and boys without one, mens and womens washrooms should all be combined, and boys and girls washrooms should all be combined. I don't agree, and I don't think the Transgender teen in that case would agree with you either, she wants to use the girls.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 10:54 AM.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. An individual's gender identity is established quite early and solidified by the age of about seven.

    My kids school has some gender neutral washrooms and there don't seem to be any problems. My house has a gender neutral washroom and there isn't problem there either.
    Please provide citation for this and including how such determination is made and what clinicians are involved.

    Also, be aware that there is usually a temporal difference, and often quite significant, between feelings questioning ones gender concept and acting that out through such things as dress, behavior.

    Finally, child development takes years and massive identity related shifts can occur in how one perceives themselves as very young children. If a child is supported to act on feelings of gender confusion at the age of 7 this potentially sets in motion actions that thereby make it difficult socially for the same child to adjust their identity later. Theirs been years of literature that suggest children have some shifting ideas about gender, preferred gender, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Biology is more than morphology. People with gender dysphoria do have physical differences in brain structure and possibly in their genetics. Accommodating transgender individuals within our culture is letting biology decide.
    So, just to be clear right now Paul, you would be fine, with a Transgender man who is in his brain a woman, using a womans washroom? That's fine, but are you sure women are comfortable with that? Because it appears girls, in schools, aren't.

    I don't think anyone has a problem with there being gender neutral washrooms. The big case in the US right now though, concerns a boy, who is a girl in his brain, who wants to use the girls, not the gender netural one that is provided. The girls in the school aren't comfortable with that. So why is the solution to eliminate the girls washroom, as opposed to asking the boy, who is a girl, to use the boys, and ask the boys to be accepting of that?
    I would say your phrasing isn't clear. Perhaps you mean someone whose sex is different than their gender. Personally I have zero problem with people using the washroom appropriate to their gender regardless of their sex but I understand where some might be uncomfortable. On the other hand I wonder how many women would be comfortable with this man in the women's washroom:



    Or how many men would be comfortable with this women in the men's room:



    In the long run I would hope for completely gender neutral public washrooms with closed stalls and a separate area for urinals for those who chose to use them. I saw this setup in Zurich and it made a lot of sense.

    In the short term for schools I see designating some washrooms as gender neutral as a first step.

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  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Sorry, I think everyone on the thread knows what I mean except for you, "the girl who has a penis." Happy?
    We all know what you meant, just some of us found it to be horribly ignorant & potentially hurtful in your phrasing. You weren't unclear, just outmoded & incorrect.

    Happy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Hmm. Top Dawg's post disappeared. Not sure if he deleted it, or if someone else did. But he asked if there might be a rift in the LGBTQ community because "the trannies are getting uppity and hijacking the agenda". His words paraphrased, not mine!. I do know of a recent example in Calgary where a group of people basically hijacked a long standing outreach organization and forced out the executive director and the board. Only reason I'm aware of it is that a friend of mine was on the board, and she was terrified that she was going to be dragged in front of a human rights tribunal or something else as ridiculous. A lot of it played out on their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/5839945562/

    From the outside looking in and not really knowing the history, it certainly looked like a case of "eating their own".
    Its an interesting point Marcel and theres been a lot of questions in the medical, Psychological community of how a 7 year child is fully actualized as transgender at such a young age. With the child presumably having those feelings "4years before".

    Many suggestions have been made about how a child independently, and developmentally, arrives at such transgender clarity at this young age.

    Indeed, and perhaps not surprisingly activists have very involved in lobbying this case. To wit my question earlier about whether some of whats occurred in this instance and others is for the benefit of very young children who can still be developmentally confused about their identity or for activists who may exert their own political agenda.
    What is quite disturbing is how quickly witch hunts, sorry for the term, occur in relation to these issues. So that rather than allowance for appropriate deliberation decisions can be forced in lieu of substantiation of what is best for a specific child, or the population of a school.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-09-2015 at 11:07 AM.
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  48. #48

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    ^^I notice neither of you, Channing, or Noodle, replied to my question. I'll put it again, using politically correct wording you are more comfortable with:

    "There are girls with penis's who want to use girls locker rooms / change rooms / showers / washrooms. They don't want to use the boys, and they don't want to use the provided gender neutral one as it isolates them / they aren't part of the "girl talk". Becuase of this, do you believe all girls / boys washrooms / locker rooms / change rooms / showers, should be combined? Even though that's not what the girl who has a penis is asking for"?
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 11:09 AM.

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    ^The transgender person is asking for a bathroom that fits their identity. They may already get misgendered all day long, they don't want to go through yet another door that misgenders them.

    A gender neutral bathroom, where everything is combined, doesn't misgender them. They'd likley be fine with that.

  50. #50

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    ^got it, because there are a few cases like this, men and women are no longer allowed to have spearate washrooms / change rooms / etc., they all have to be of the combined form. You are entitled to that view. I don't agree. I believe we do have to accomodate boys with penisis and girls who don't have penisis, and maybe women / girls who don't have pensis, need ot be more accpeting of women / girls with penisis using their facilities, but I don't believe that accomodation extends to having to eliminate everything that is gender specific. I think space for "men" and "women" is part of our culture, and even part of transgender culture, the transgender lady I know quite well, I am sure, wants to be part of that girl talk without men in front of the mirror experience that you think should be taken away.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 11:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^^I notice neither of you, Channing, or Noodle, replied to my question. I'll put it again:

    "There are girls with penis's who want to use girls locker rooms / change rooms / showers / washrooms. They don't want to use the boys, and they don't want to use the provided Trans Gender one as it isolates them / they aren't part of the "girl talk". Becuase of this, do you believe all girls / boys washrooms / locker rooms / change rooms / showers, should be combined? Even though that's not what the girl who has a penis is asking for"?
    That's not a change that is or could happen in the near term but thirty years from now it could very well be the norm. For now in schools I'd say, as I already did in an earlier post, have some gender neutral washrooms. I'd add that in some schools it may be possible to have transgender students use the gender appropriate washrooms and this is the case already in some schools. Locker rooms could move to stalls like the pool in Edmonton that moved to gender neutral change rooms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. An individual's gender identity is established quite early and solidified by the age of about seven.

    My kids school has some gender neutral washrooms and there don't seem to be any problems. My house has a gender neutral washroom and there isn't problem there either.
    Please provide citation for this and including how such determination is made and what clinicians are involved.

    Also, be aware that there is usually a temporal difference, and often quite significant, between feelings questioning ones gender concept and acting that out through such things as dress, behavior.

    Finally, child development takes years and massive identity related shifts can occur in how one perceives themselves as very young children. If a child is supported to act on feelings of gender confusion at the age of 7 this potentially sets in motion actions that thereby make it difficult socially for the same child to adjust their identity later. Theirs been years of literature that suggest children have some shifting ideas about gender, preferred gender, etc.
    I'll talk to my in-house expert tonight and see what I can find in the way academic material, however pretty much all online material on gender identity talks about it forming early and generally solidifying by seven or so. It can shift after that but what I've read generally says if gender identity has been stable by age 11 or 12 it's extremely unlikely to change after that.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^^I notice neither of you, Channing, or Noodle, replied to my question. I'll put it again, using politically correct wording you are more comfortable with:

    "There are girls with penis's who want to use girls locker rooms / change rooms / showers / washrooms. They don't want to use the boys, and they don't want to use the provided Trans Gender one as it isolates them / they aren't part of the "girl talk". Becuase of this, do you believe all girls / boys washrooms / locker rooms / change rooms / showers, should be combined? Even though that's not what the girl who has a penis is asking for"?
    You could have just used "transgendered girl" vs fixating on what they've got between their legs. It's the focusing on external sex characteristics & using them to infer gender that lead to the situation that we're in which, it turns out, is not how human gender & sexuality actually works.

    I'm all for completely gender-neutral facilities in any public or open-to-the public facility. One policy & one set of facilities for all, versus endlessly meting out exceptions to the outmoded rules & perpetuating the incorrect & harmful assumptions people like you continue to make. Accommodations for personal modesty can be made without full gender segregation.
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  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I'm all for completely gender-neutral facilities in any public or open-to-the public facility.
    I think you need to actually go out and talk with transgender people, they aren't gender neutral, and they don't want to be gender neutral, those I have met want to be recognized as a woman or a man, and they want those things that men and women have, including girl talk at a mirror, or boy talk at a urinal (assuming they take it to that step). Getting rid of those things isn't meeting their needs even if it is utopian to you and Channing.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 11:24 AM.

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Not sure why Replacement brings up sexuality. Transgenderism has nothing to do with sexuality. Completely different.
    Ample confusion has existed in this case and instance. To the degree that parents that found their child playing with "girl toys" made the stated leap of logic that their child had transgender identity at the age of 7. A substantiation which involved confirmation bias and concluding first that the child was transgender and then acting on that.

    In the medical and psychiatric community there is ample disagreement with the notion that a child, age 7, independently arrive at the conclusion that they are transgender. Developmentally speaking such a milestone is very rarely established independently in case annals.

    What possibly occurred in this instance is confusion by the parents transferred to the child. In effect its quite possible that an erroneous conclusion by the parents, that their child was transgender because their child played with "girls toys" was then generalized by the parents to support and nurture broader female identification.
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  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. An individual's gender identity is established quite early and solidified by the age of about seven.

    My kids school has some gender neutral washrooms and there don't seem to be any problems. My house has a gender neutral washroom and there isn't problem there either.
    Please provide citation for this and including how such determination is made and what clinicians are involved.

    Also, be aware that there is usually a temporal difference, and often quite significant, between feelings questioning ones gender concept and acting that out through such things as dress, behavior.

    Finally, child development takes years and massive identity related shifts can occur in how one perceives themselves as very young children. If a child is supported to act on feelings of gender confusion at the age of 7 this potentially sets in motion actions that thereby make it difficult socially for the same child to adjust their identity later. Theirs been years of literature that suggest children have some shifting ideas about gender, preferred gender, etc.
    I'll talk to my in-house expert tonight and see what I can find in the way academic material, however pretty much all online material on gender identity talks about it forming early and generally solidifying by seven or so. It can shift after that but what I've read generally says if gender identity has been stable by age 11 or 12 it's extremely unlikely to change after that.
    Understand that this is the crux of the issue Paul. Which is not consistent with gender identity being firmly established and stable at age 7. There is a contradiction you have furthered in your post above. A concept of gender identity is not solidified if it is developmentally still very subject to change. If this is a 10 yr old or 11 yr old I would be approaching this instance much differently.

    The key point being gender identity concept is NOT firmly established at age 7 independently so that substantive actions taken to empower such confused identity at this age could be unproductive and potentially very damaging for the childs psyche, socialization, social relations, etc.

    As I've stated imagine the developmental complexity involved and the massive, and potentially destructive identity issues that ensue if a child, age 7, is viewed to have sexual identity confusion and even if they vocalize and self report it (this child did) and if that change is acted on and nurtured in dress, and play, and association and then the child, as many do, subsequently changes their concept at age 10, 11, pre puberty. Then what?

    Imagine this childs life and identity confusion if the child realizes 3-4 years later that they are not really transgender, that this was a passing phase.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-09-2015 at 11:41 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I think you need to actually go out and talk with transgender people, they aren't gender neutral, and they don't want to be gender neutral...
    The facilities are gender neutral, not the individuals using them. The pool is gender neutral, the changing facilities should be gender neutral, the restrooms should be gender neutral, so on & so forth.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  59. #59

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    ^you are tyring to remove from society the very things that make a transgender person want to idenfiy so strongly with their gender. We should celebrate gender differences, including cultural ones like I mention, not be ashamed of them / try to eliminate them. For example, I like the quaintness of the mens washroom urinal pool at Commonwealth, I remember the boys locker room before a rugby game (I'm sure quite different from a girls netball / cheerleader locker room) it would be a sad day if a transgender or nontransgender person has to miss out on that just because of your unease over sexuality differences. Those differences do give rise to some difficult issues, like that teen in Missouri, I think those issues should be worked out, not avoided by combining gender.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 11:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Gender identity and sexual orientation are not the same thing. An individual's gender identity is established quite early and solidified by the age of about seven.

    My kids school has some gender neutral washrooms and there don't seem to be any problems. My house has a gender neutral washroom and there isn't problem there either.
    Please provide citation for this and including how such determination is made and what clinicians are involved.

    Also, be aware that there is usually a temporal difference, and often quite significant, between feelings questioning ones gender concept and acting that out through such things as dress, behavior.

    Finally, child development takes years and massive identity related shifts can occur in how one perceives themselves as very young children. If a child is supported to act on feelings of gender confusion at the age of 7 this potentially sets in motion actions that thereby make it difficult socially for the same child to adjust their identity later. Theirs been years of literature that suggest children have some shifting ideas about gender, preferred gender, etc.
    I'll talk to my in-house expert tonight and see what I can find in the way academic material, however pretty much all online material on gender identity talks about it forming early and generally solidifying by seven or so. It can shift after that but what I've read generally says if gender identity has been stable by age 11 or 12 it's extremely unlikely to change after that.
    Understand that this is the crux of the issue Paul. Which is not consistent with gender identity being firmly established and stable at age 7. There is a contradiction you have furthered in your post above. A concept of gender identity is not solidified if it is developmentally still very subject to change. If this is a 10 yr old or 11 yr old I would be approaching this instance much differently.

    The key point being gender identity concept is NOT firmly established at age 7 so that substantive actions taken to empower such confused identity at this age could be unproductive and potentially very damaging for the childs psyche, socialization, social relations, etc.

    As I've stated imagine the developmental complexity involved and the massive, and potentially destructive identity issues that ensue if a child, age 7, is viewed to have sexual identity confusion and even if they vocalize and self report it (this child did) and if that change is acted on and nurtured in dress, and play, and association and then the child, as many do, subsequently changes their concept at age 10, 11, pre puberty. Then what?

    Imagine this childs life and identity confusion if the child realizes 3-4 years later that they are not really transgender, that this was a passing phase.
    Firmly established means that for most individuals gender identity does not alter after about seven years of age. That it can in some cases, and that includes previously cisgendered children becoming transgendered, prior to puberty, does not change that.

    Also note that the accepted "treatment" for gender dysphoria is not to try and change it but to accommodate it. It is not confusion, it who they are. Trying to actively change someone's gender identity leads to real psychological problems.

    And speaking of citations, I assume you have some of your own.

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    May day job is as a Nurse and I deal specifically with transgendered individuals on a day-to-day basis.

    A "gender neutral" bathroom is just as stigmatizing as not allowing these people the use of the bathroom that they identify with.

    Many of my clients choose clothing of their choice. F2M will choose masculine clothing . M2F will wear female clothing. A gender neutral bathroom is the equivalent to me asking one my my clients to not wear high heels into my office - to wear something unisex because I thought it was good for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You could have just used "transgendered girl" vs fixating on what they've got between their legs. It's the focusing on external sex characteristics & using them to infer gender that lead to the situation that we're in which, it turns out, is not how human gender & sexuality actually works.
    Well Top_Dawg hates to point out the obvious, but genitalia has been the quintessential determinant of gender for.......forever.

    Notwithstanding all the cockamamie gobbledygook currently being spewed by the enlightened experts on this subject.


    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    The facilities are gender neutral, not the individuals using them. The pool is gender neutral, the changing facilities should be gender neutral, the restrooms should be gender neutral, so on & so forth.
    Top_Dawg can't help but wonder about the reaction of all these inclusive, super-tolerant, enlightened cornholios after the first time a girl / woman gets sexually assaulted by some predator in one of these gender neutral cesspools.

    Which will likely happen within about three days of them opening.


  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    May day job is as a Nurse and I deal specifically with transgendered individuals on a day-to-day basis.

    A "gender neutral" bathroom is just as stigmatizing as not allowing these people the use of the bathroom that they identify with.

    Many of my clients choose clothing of their choice. F2M will choose masculine clothing . M2F will wear female clothing. A gender neutral bathroom is the equivalent to me asking one my my clients to not wear high heels into my office - to wear something unisex because I thought it was good for them.
    So are you saying gender neutral bathrooms aren't the answer? That continued segregation based on some of these issues is ok, if not desired, but the choice should be based on one's personal choice and self-identification? I'm quite pragmatic and indifferent on what solution is found as long as whatever works keeps EVERYONE - every single person - happy.

    Though, it seems to be a tough situation society is in. We're trying to eliminate all discrimination based on sex, sexual orientation, DNA, you name it, while allowing and encouraging self expression, religious expression, acting within one's freedom of conscience etc. and making society safe for all. So, it seems that naturally, some of these issues will slam, head on, right into each other in very, VERY emotional ways. Yet when it does, people spin the stories, raise alliances, debase others, and blame those that are only trying to do the right thing from one very reasonable perspective or another.
    Last edited by KC; 23-09-2015 at 12:02 PM.

  64. #64

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    ^^^^Paul, most of the substantive documentation I have is books, print form, but vast majority is physical documents. I'm not setup to be able to scan materials to you or post them here. Online information I have found is less helpful and mostly documents studies of sexual attraction, which can typically be non hetero perceived age 10 and older. But that is a different matter.

    If working in this field you know that there are risks in too quickly acting on and empowering a childs transformation to transgender identity at age 7.

    You would know, if working in this field that the medical, psychiatric, and psychological communities would be divided on these issues and that suggesting that it is conclusively known what is in the best interests of these children, and how to treat them, is still subject to contention and is still an area of debate, and is not a known. I caution any conclusion that infers that present treatment models will be proven to be the most effective models of the future as the very history of intervention suggests this is not necessarily the case.

    You mention the risk involved in trying to "change" somebodies gender identity in the context of a 7 year old child. What of the risk of a false positive and empowered application of transgender identity onto a 7 year old child. Clearly you realize that risk being quite severe as well.

    The latter being why I would caution against quick empowerment of gender transformation until solidification of identity can developmentally occur and be established.
    Last edited by Replacement; 23-09-2015 at 12:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So are you saying gender neutral bathrooms aren't the answer? That segregation based on some of these issues is ok?
    Nobody would be transgender if nobody cared about gender. You can pretend gender doesn't exist, but it does, and with gender comes different societal implications. If there were no implications, if men and women were exactly the same, and had exactly the same wants and needs, again, why would anyone be transgender? Neutral bathrooms, no more mens / womens shared steam rooms, no more Onsens in Japan, is trying to remove / avoid something we should actually celebrate as humans.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    May day job is as a Nurse and I deal specifically with transgendered individuals on a day-to-day basis.

    A "gender neutral" bathroom is just as stigmatizing as not allowing these people the use of the bathroom that they identify with.

    Many of my clients choose clothing of their choice. F2M will choose masculine clothing . M2F will wear female clothing. A gender neutral bathroom is the equivalent to me asking one my my clients to not wear high heels into my office - to wear something unisex because I thought it was good for them.
    Your client(s) should wear whatever they want and wear it into the all-inclusive washroom with pride.
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    ^ Agreed.

    Making things easier for people whose physiology does not match their gender identity is only one reason to move toward gender neutral washrooms and change rooms. Better privacy for everyone and an ability to automatically adapt to situations where the gender ratio is skewed without having one room overcrowded while the other is nearly empty are other reasons that are even more important (IMHO). I don't care who is using the toilet next to me, but I would rather not see or hear them. I'd rather not get naked in front of a bunch of random strangers at the swimming pool, nor do I want to see said random strangers naked. I would, however, like to be able to share a locker with my family at the pool. Proper walls and doors on toilet or change cubicles will fix these issues while providing a space that is accessible to all combinations of physiology and gender identity at the same time.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 23-09-2015 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    So are you saying gender neutral bathrooms aren't the answer? That segregation based on some of these issues is ok?
    Nobody would be transgender if nobody cared about gender. You can pretend gender doesn't exist, but it does, and with gender comes different societal implications. If there were no implications, if men and women were exactly the same, and had exactly the same wants and needs, again, why would anyone be transgender? Neutral bathrooms is trying to remove / avoid something we should actually celebrate as humans.
    Sorry, I continued editing my post. See revised. Doesn't really change my query though.

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    ^lol, I edited too

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    Maybe no washroom should contain more than one stall. Essentially just like a house.

    No more grouping of toilets, etc. into single rooms. Each needs to be a stand alone room off a common hallway.

  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I'd rather not get naked in front of a bunch of random strangers at the swimming pool, nor do I want to see said random strangers naked.
    But just because you don't like it, does that mean it should be baned? I like family change rooms, but I also enjoyed going in an Onsen in Japan, where men are naked together, and women are naked together. Lots of people here enjoy steam rooms, and saunas naked as well, but wouldn't be comfortable with people of the "other" gender in the room. Lots of women like to work out in women only gyms where they feel less intimidated. I think its also part of growing up to be honest, I think its good for boys to be a little curious about girls, and girls a little curious about boys (at least until they discover internet porn at about 10). There is some research on that, that its healthy for boys and girls not to be too close as friends in pre-teen years, because that can then interfere in forming bonds after puberty, that's why you get all that stuff like cooties. Its part of growing up, I think its a bit sad that has to be thrown out because we can't figure out a solution that makes everyone comfortable for transgender kids, including for them.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Top_Dawg can't help but wonder about the reaction of all these inclusive, super-tolerant, enlightened cornholios after the first time a girl / woman gets sexually assaulted by some predator in one of these gender neutral cesspools.

    Which will likely happen within about three days of them opening.

    You realize Queen E Pool is already doing exactly just this & hasn't become a magnet for molestations, child abductions, rapes or whatever?

    http://www.edmonton.ca/activities_pa...door-pool.aspx

    If the first thing you think of when being confronted with the idea of mixed-gender changing & restroom facilities is titillation, predation or sexual assault that speaks more to your own terrible mentality than the nature of the facilities themselves.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    May day job is as a Nurse and I deal specifically with transgendered individuals on a day-to-day basis.

    A "gender neutral" bathroom is just as stigmatizing as not allowing these people the use of the bathroom that they identify with.

    Many of my clients choose clothing of their choice. F2M will choose masculine clothing . M2F will wear female clothing. A gender neutral bathroom is the equivalent to me asking one my my clients to not wear high heels into my office - to wear something unisex because I thought it was good for them.
    So are you saying gender neutral bathrooms aren't the answer? That segregation based on some of these issues is ok?
    Yes. Bathroom segregation is even more critical in my professional opinion due to the disproportionate amounts of violence and sexual violence towards M2F. Men are terrible towards men transitioning to women and unlike what we see on TV 9/10 times it is very obvious what is happening.

    F2M do vastly better than M2F from my clinical experiences. People will not point out a masculine female...they will just assume she is a lesbian - it has a level of normality to it. There wouldn't be teasing in the bathrooms, or on work sites...they will have a much easier time being one of the boys. F2M are much harder to tell that they are transitioning.

    M2F are another story. Unfortunately, they will be pointed out and made fun of. "look at that man in the high heels! What a gong show". The general public love making a circus out of nothing.

    In plain speak: females choosing to masculanize themselves always are bullied far less than those who choose to feminize themselves. Think back to the time when a little boy would be beaten black and blue for playing with dolls or with an easy bake oven. It still happens.
    Last edited by Downtown; 23-09-2015 at 12:41 PM.

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I'd rather not get naked in front of a bunch of random strangers at the swimming pool, nor do I want to see said random strangers naked.
    But just because you don't like it, does that mean it should be baned? I like family change rooms, but I also enjoyed going in an Onsen in Japan, where men are naked together, and women are naked together. Lots of people here enjoy steam rooms, and saunas naked as well, but wouldn't be comfortable with people of the "other" gender in the room. Lots of women like to work out in women only gyms where they feel less intimidated. I think its also part of growing up to be honest, I think its good for boys to be a little curious about girls, and girls a little curious about boys (at least until they discover internet porn at about 10). There is some research on that, that its healthy for boys and girls not to be too close as friends in pre-teen years, because that can then interfere in forming bonds after puberty, that's why you get all that stuff like cooties. Its part of growing up, I think its a bit sad that has to be thrown out because we can't figure out a solution that makes everyone comfortable for transgender kids, including for them.
    I love this stuff. In citizenship ceremonies the hot issue of the day is about having too much, or the wrong stuff, covered up in public and this thread is somewhat about not having enough covered up in public.

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    ^^ How is bathroom segregation going to stop such bullying? Isn't there also a similar size group of intolerant women who might instigate violence when a M2F shows up in the women's washroom?

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    Intolerant women are far less physically violent than intolerant men.

  77. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I love this stuff. In citizenship ceremonies the hot issue of the day is about having too much, or the wrong stuff, covered up in public and this thread is somewhat about not having enough covered up in public.
    Lol, its only a matter of time before the courts rule that religious freedom lets someone wear a niquab in a sauna.

  78. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Not sure why Replacement brings up sexuality. Transgenderism has nothing to do with sexuality. Completely different.
    Ample confusion has existed in this case and instance. To the degree that parents that found their child playing with "girl toys" made the stated leap of logic that their child had transgender identity at the age of 7. A substantiation which involved confirmation bias and concluding first that the child was transgender and then acting on that.

    In the medical and psychiatric community there is ample disagreement with the notion that a child, age 7, independently arrive at the conclusion that they are transgender. Developmentally speaking such a milestone is very rarely established independently in case annals.

    What possibly occurred in this instance is confusion by the parents transferred to the child. In effect its quite possible that an erroneous conclusion by the parents, that their child was transgender because their child played with "girls toys" was then generalized by the parents to support and nurture broader female identification.
    It's not just a matter of girls playing with boys toys. There are lots of girls out there that can be labeled 'tom boys' but that does not mean they are transgender. At one time if a girl wanted to go into some extreme sports or even soccer or hockey they would be labeled a 'tom boy'. Transgender children, like gay children, seem to relate to their sexuality at a very early age. It has been noted that transgender children can relate to their true gender as early as 3 to 4 years old. It usually comes to light through their parents dressing them. They look like boys but they want to dress like girls and girls want to dress like boys. Then the struggle starts because who they want to be identified as is not accepted by most of society. This is what has to be changed. If future generations are brought up to accept that transgender people are just a part of the human mosaic we would have no need for segregation of washrooms. If they come forward as a boy they use the boys washroom, same for the girls. Cross dressers should also be able to use the washroom of their choice. If washrooms are designed correctly they should be able to accommodate all these differences.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    I'd rather not get naked in front of a bunch of random strangers at the swimming pool, nor do I want to see said random strangers naked.
    But just because you don't like it, does that mean it should be baned? I like family change rooms, but I also enjoyed going in an Onsen in Japan, where men are naked together, and women are naked together. Lots of people here enjoy steam rooms, and saunas naked as well, but wouldn't be comfortable with people of the "other" gender in the room. Lots of women like to work out in women only gyms where they feel less intimidated. I think its also part of growing up to be honest, I think its good for boys to be a little curious about girls, and girls a little curious about boys (at least until they discover internet porn at about 10). There is some research on that, that its healthy for boys and girls not to be too close as friends in pre-teen years, because that can then interfere in forming bonds after puberty, that's why you get all that stuff like cooties. Its part of growing up, I think its a bit sad that has to be thrown out because we can't figure out a solution that makes everyone comfortable for transgender kids, including for them.
    I have no problem with women-only or men-only businesses that specifically cater to people who want a gender-segregated sauna or workout experience, but any facility that is open to all should provide private change and toilet cubicles and avoid gender segregation.

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    but any facility that is open to all
    How do you define that? A Catholic school is not open to all (one parent must have a batisim certificate).

    I guess in your world, we won't ever see any teen movies coming out of Canada, where the boys dream about the girls locker room, or similar... I guess you want to ban girls sports teams as well, becasue a transgender kid might want to join it, breaking a sports rule over testosterone levels or similar? What's so special about gender specific lockers or washrooms that makes them bad, versus sports teams or girls clubs?
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 01:22 PM.

  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    How do you define that? A Catholic school is not open to all (one parent must have a batisim certificate).
    Uh. Nope.

    Are you a resident of Edmonton Catholic Schools?

    A resident student is a Catholic or has at least one parent who is a Catholic, or under the authority of the Child Welfare Act, has been placed in a foster home where the foster parent is a resident of Edmonton Catholic Schools. Also, a resident must reside within the corporate limits of the City of Edmonton, be six years of age or older on or before March 1 or 19 years of age or younger as of September 1 of the current school year. In the case of a kindergarten student, is 5 years of age or older on or before March 1 of the current school year.

    Students who do not meet the above conditions are considered non-resident students and may enroll at Edmonton Catholic Schools given the adequate availability of resources as determined by the principal and school district.
    From here

    Papists get preferential treatment in their own schools, but they do not have exclusive access.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  82. #82

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    ^my bad, but being able to enroll if there is availablility after all catholics and foster kids are catered for, is not in my view open to all. Regardless, so how do you feel about sports team? You say girls and boys bathrooms are bad. Are boys and girls school sports teams bad in your gender neutral sexless utopia?
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 01:31 PM.

  83. #83

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    ^Cripes, get a grip. The guy's just showed you proof that the catholic schools are open to all even after foster kids are excepted.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^my bad, but being able to enroll if there is availablility after all catholics and foster kids are catered for, is not in my view open to all.
    Nice attempt to weasel out of the fact you were blatantly wrong. It is open to all, but Catholics have priority. It's like the seats at the front of the bus. They're open to everyone, but some people have priority. Or is ETS not open to all?

    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Regardless, so how do you feel about sports team? You say girls and boys bathrooms are bad. Are boys and girls school sports teams bad in your gender neutral sexless utopia?
    Gender-neutral isn't sexless. Once again you're conflating sex & gender in an outmoded & bigoted fashion. Sex isn't gender & gender isn't sex. I know that's hard for some people to wrap their heads around after decades of incorrect thinking, but it's the way it is.

    Given that school sports teams are a voluntary, extra-curricular activity I have no problem with gender-biased teams, provided that both genders have equal access to participate in the activity. If there's not enough interest from one gender to form a full team, a mixed team should be facilitated wherever possible. Teams should be a meritocracy first & foremost, not a just a boys' or just a girls' club.
    Giving less of a damn than everů Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  85. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Gender-neutral isn't sexless
    I know its not sexless, that's why I think its fine to have a girls washroom for girls, and a boys washroom for boys, and its fine to have some non-gender ones. And, I think its understandable that Misouri teen wants to be with her sex in the girls, and I understand the concerns from the other girls. I don't think she wants to be in some genderless cubical, she already has that, your utopian dream of no single sex locker rooms / washrooms anywhere "public" is not what most transgender or non transgender people actually want. Its nice to have that option, and maybe it should always be available, but single sex washrooms are fine as well.
    Last edited by moahunter; 23-09-2015 at 01:59 PM.

  86. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    Intolerant women are far less physically violent than intolerant men.
    Possibly equally vicious in leaving long-term mental scars through subtle or direct verbal attacks though.

  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I know its not sexless, that's why I think its fine to have a girls washroom for girls, and a boys washroom for boys, and its fine to have some non-gender ones. And, I think its understandable that Misouri teen wants to be with her sexgender in the girls, and I understand the concerns from the other girls. I don't think she wants to be in some genderless cubical, she already has that, your utopian dream of no single sex locker rooms / washrooms anywhere "public" is not what most transgender or non transgender people actually want. Its nice to have that option, and maybe it should always be available, but single sex washrooms are fine as well.
    You can't even use gender and sex right in your claim that you know what the difference is between gender & sex.

    Priceless.

    And then you, who can't even get gender & sex straight, tries to state that you know what transgendered people really want.

    Double priceless.

    If you can't replace the genders in a statement you're making with other non-discriminatory factors without coming across like a bigot/racist/klansman it's not a fair statement to make about gender either. But you went & did that too!

    Triple priceless!

    Example:

    your utopian dream of no single sex race locker rooms / washrooms anywhere "public" is not what most transgender or non transgender coloured or white people actually want. Its nice to have that option, and maybe it should always be available, but single sex race washrooms are fine as well.
    See how crazy & obviously bigoted your statement gets when you swap out one protected class with another?

    (Please note: I'm using the offensive, inappropriate "coloured" term in order to illustrate my point & would not use the term otherwise)
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    Gender segregation of sports teams is a direct result of physiological differences that would otherwise result in the exclusion of most women from most competitive sports. This is fundamentally different from the outdated (IMHO) idea that privacy is somehow less important in a gender-segregated environment.

    Further to the sex (physiology) vs gender (psychological gender identity) issue, the distinction is not universally accepted yet, so I expect there will be confusion for some time yet. For sports, I would suggest that any segregation should be based on physiology, as that is what gives one group an advantage over the other a mixed environment. I understand that this would effectively exclude pre-transition transgender women from competitive sport, but I don't see any way around that problem.
    Last edited by Titanium48; 23-09-2015 at 02:29 PM.

  89. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Gender-neutral isn't sexless
    I know its not sexless, that's why I think its fine to have a girls washroom for girls, and a boys washroom for boys, and its fine to have some non-gender ones. And, I think its understandable that Misouri teen wants to be with her sex in the girls, and I understand the concerns from the other girls. I don't think she wants to be in some genderless cubical, she already has that, your utopian dream of no single sex locker rooms / washrooms anywhere "public" is not what most transgender or non transgender people actually want. Its nice to have that option, and maybe it should always be available, but single sex washrooms are fine as well.
    What does 'non-gender' mean. Everyone is born with a 'gender'. If it's not the one they relate to they are then deemed 'transgender'. Saying 'non-gender' is akin to saying 'non-person'.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  90. #90

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    ^lol, replace "non-gender" with "Any-gender", or "both gender" (if we think there are only two)

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    Intolerant women are far less physically violent than intolerant men.
    Possibly equally vicious in leaving long-term mental scars through subtle or direct verbal attacks though.
    Indeed - but there is no perfect solution. The transgender and medical community is taking the "lesser of two evils approach" and that actual research and clinical experience support self identity and self expression of our patients.

    It's better to use the bathroom that you want and being harassed vs. not using the bathroom you want and being harassed.

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    ^ Over the long term, wouldn't a world with less gender segregation benefit transgendered people by removing the awkward choice? The bigots will still find another excuse for their bullying behavior, but their bigotry will look more out of place and won't be tolerated as readily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post
    It's better to use the bathroom that you want and being harassed vs. not using the bathroom you want and being harassed.
    Well Top_Dawg figgers it's best to use the gender bathroom in accordance with the gender that you are.

    And not be harassed at all.

    Like our ancestors figured out.

    Got a dick - use the men's.

    Got a poon - use the women's.

    Simple.

    And effective.

    Only served us well for 200 years.


    Too bad King Ralph is not around.

    Would just clobber anyone who wanted to make a circle jerk out of it with the notworthstandin' clause.



    And be done with their nonsense.

  94. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg figgers it's best to use the gender bathroom in accordance with the gender that you are.

    And not be harassed at all.

    Like our ancestors figured out.

    Got a dick - use the men's.

    Got a poon - use the women's.

    Simple.

    And effective.
    And wrong. Your genitals are your sex, not your gender.
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    A gender neutral washroom would provide a SAFE private place for the individual whom is in transition be it FTM/MTF.

  96. #96

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    The transgender catholic school girl (MTF) did not want a gender neutral washroom. She wanted to use the girls washroom as she identified as a female. Another thing about providing a neutral washroom is that it 'out's' a person who is transitioning or cross dressing. If a person did not want to be 'outed' they would use the washroom they identified with. They would not want to use a 'provided' neutral washroom as it would maybe make them 'come out' before they were maybe ready to.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    I would think anyone could use a gender neutral washroom if they wanted. Not just specifically for a transgender individual. It does however provide a private space for the person, any person. A transitioning individual is already outed to the people who knew them before. And if they are not ready to use the correct washroom they should have that choice. Also dare I say it..the chance for the other people to adjust. And Before long No one will know.
    Last edited by piglet; 23-09-2015 at 07:32 PM.

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    The Morinville change, as per the first post:

    http://globalnews.ca/news/2236822/ca...ral-washrooms/

    “I think it’s awesome,” said Grade 12 student Rebecca Kerrison. “I think it’s so important for them to have it.”
    “They have the right to be who they are and who they want to be. For our school to support that, that’s amazing because I know not a lot of Catholic high schools do that.

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg figgers it's best to use the gender bathroom in accordance with the gender that you are.

    And not be harassed at all.

    Like our ancestors figured out.

    Got a dick - use the men's.

    Got a poon - use the women's.

    Simple.

    And effective.
    And wrong. Your genitals are your sex, not your gender.
    What about the intersex / "third gender" people, if gender neutral washrooms aren't accepted and transgender people get to choose from the current make or female assigned washrooms?

  100. #100

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    Hopefully the next generation will get it right and assign all washrooms as all gender washrooms. If they designed them so that they could put all the urinals at the end of the individual stalls so that way other people would not have to walk by the people using them. Then make the doors and partitions on each stall from floor to ceiling and make the gap around the door go away. Guys who want to use the urinals can and whatever gender someone is can use the stalls.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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