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Thread: Transgender accomodation in our schools

  1. #101

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    [QUOTE=Top_Dawg;712405]
    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown View Post

    Got a dick - use the men's.

    Got a poon - use the women's.

    Simple.

    And effective.

    Only served us well for 200 years.
    Comon dude, you simultaneously ask that people drop their intolerance and accept that you enjoy hitting up the jack shack, while then getting all bent out of shape about something as simple as a universal washroom?

    Jack shacks for all. Universal washrooms. Let's stop with the oppressive rules that help no one and harm us all.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  2. #102

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    Anybody else getting a bit of a chuckle over how much times change? Not long ago at all it seems the biggest issue with washrooms was ensuring that all sites, industrial, and all male dominated places of employment had to have both male and female washrooms and many ended up then adding separate female washroom facilities to conform to this societal expectation.

    At no time, again not all that long ago, was there much of any suggestion of non segregation of washrooms and just having the one washroom being the correct answer to fit all. Could have saved a lot of money. But I sense in feminist circles there would've been a big uproar about that. Not judging it, just that the zeitgeist of the times really would have objected to the idea of just everybody using the one washroom. With questions about whether the employer is being too cheap to value women and want them to just suck it up and use the same washroom. Imagine how that would have played.

    But now suddenly we have much different times, attitudes, zeitgeist. Its interesting that depending on what lobby is involved in asking for change that the answers seem strikingly different..now the answer is obviously gender neutral washrooms. Why wasn't it then?

    Myself, the main drawback I'm seeing to gender neutral washrooms is that women take so much longer in washrooms, sinks will hardly ever be available, (listen to me whine) more men will forego washing hands because several women are taking up the whole counter looking at themselves in the mirror, and washroom lineups will now be longer..

    One of the advances of having biologically efficient plumbing is spending less time to get in and out of a washroom. Now this advantage is sadly lost.

    I'm just jk around here tryng to inject some levity. kinda..
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-09-2015 at 11:32 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  3. #103

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    Well, another way to look at it that women will gossip less about the guys as the guys will be right along side of them at the sink.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Well, another way to look at it that women will gossip less about the guys as the guys will be right along side of them at the sink.
    This entirely transforms the club scene. How on Earth will women share notes now. Oh, texting at tables IN FRONT of the dolts on parade. I see it now. Better work on them poker faces..

    I'm kind of glad to be old enough not to care about this..
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  5. #105

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    It's all drama.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Well, another way to look at it that women will gossip less about the guys as the guys will be right along side of them at the sink.
    This entirely transforms the club scene. How on Earth will women share notes now. Oh, texting at tables IN FRONT of the dolts on parade. I see it now. Better work on them poker faces..

    I'm kind of glad to be old enough not to care about this..
    Who goes to clubs anymore?
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Anybody else getting a bit of a chuckle over how much times change? Not long ago at all it seems the biggest issue with washrooms was ensuring that all sites, industrial, and all male dominated places of employment had to have both male and female washrooms and many ended up then adding separate female washroom facilities to conform to this societal expectation.
    In 1972, I was applying for Engineering Co-op placements. Two of the six employers specifically stated that they could not hire a female engineering student because they didn't have a washroom for her to use. A couple of my fellow students, bless them, wondered aloud where the clerical staff did their business.

    The excuse another employer made was too silly to be reproduced here.

    And yes, I found a placement.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Well, another way to look at it that women will gossip less about the guys as the guys will be right along side of them at the sink.
    This entirely transforms the club scene. How on Earth will women share notes now. Oh, texting at tables IN FRONT of the dolts on parade. I see it now. Better work on them poker faces..

    I'm kind of glad to be old enough not to care about this..
    Who goes to clubs anymore?
    Club me now..

    I guess I'm showing my age just in that wordage.

    I was using the term clubs in the Nightclubs sense.

    What do people go to now.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  9. #109

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    They go to places that would function just fine with a single large washroom.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    They go to places that would function just fine with a single large washroom.
    Suddenly this is conventional wisdom.

    I don't disagree.


    Said washrooms though should be very open concept and in the case of drinking establishments with some nature of monitoring expectation for safety of patrons. Cubicles should also remain open at bottom and top so that checks can easily ascertain one person per cubicle.

    Earlier in the thread someone was advocating floor to ceiling cubicles. These could be more conducive to people hooking up or even using drugs on site.

    Keep the cubicles the way they are for security.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  11. #111
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    I thought gender neutral would suffice. The transgender person is 7, What's the big deal???

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    They go to places that would function just fine with a single large washroom.
    Suddenly this is conventional wisdom.

    I don't disagree.


    Said washrooms though should be very open concept and in the case of drinking establishments with some nature of monitoring expectation for safety of patrons. Cubicles should also remain open at bottom and top so that checks can easily ascertain one person per cubicle.

    Earlier in the thread someone was advocating floor to ceiling cubicles. These could be more conducive to people hooking up or even using drugs on site.

    Keep the cubicles the way they are for security.
    Some people don't like to be alone and others don't like to take medications in public - and viseversa.

    Some people wear veils etc and others have other considerations and rights and so we cannot risk some kid being able to peer up under the cubical or some 6'9" person looking down over the top...

    So maybe we need some floor to ceiling cubicals and maybe some wide open Cubicals. All will be in order when all are accommodated.

    ...or just make each washroom a separate room.
    Last edited by KC; 24-09-2015 at 02:02 PM.

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg figgers it's best to use the gender bathroom in accordance with the gender that you are.

    And not be harassed at all.

    Like our ancestors figured out.

    Got a dick - use the men's.

    Got a poon - use the women's.

    Simple.

    And effective.
    And wrong. Your genitals are your sex, not your gender.
    What about the intersex / "third gender" people, if gender neutral washrooms aren't accepted and transgender people get to choose from the current make or female assigned washrooms?
    Bumping my comment forward...

    So what about Intersex ?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    They go to places that would function just fine with a single large washroom.
    Suddenly this is conventional wisdom.

    I don't disagree.


    Said washrooms though should be very open concept and in the case of drinking establishments with some nature of monitoring expectation for safety of patrons. Cubicles should also remain open at bottom and top so that checks can easily ascertain one person per cubicle.

    Earlier in the thread someone was advocating floor to ceiling cubicles. These could be more conducive to people hooking up or even using drugs on site.

    Keep the cubicles the way they are for security.
    Provisions for detecting and extricating very drunk customers that pass out on the john would be needed, but does it really matter if the odd couple hooks up in the bathroom?

  15. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought gender neutral would suffice. The transgender person is 7, What's the big deal???
    I can't get my head around this either and its the case that started this issue in the school system.

    Apparently its been cited that offering a gender neutral washroom is embarrassing for a 7 yr old child and stigmatizes them. As if it outs them.

    Reality is the kid is in grade 2 in the same school in which he was a male in grade 1 and kindergarten. Does anybody think kids didn't notice.

    Every kid in that school would know the child opted for transgender. Not like its any secret.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  16. #116

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    ^^From a universal precautions standpoint yes it matters.

    Would you use a toilet seat that was covered in blood?

    Would you be comfortable using a white toilet seat that for all know could have a bodily fluid on it?

    I know my answer.

    I shouldn't need rubber gloves, sterilizing kit, and my own toilet cover to use any public washroom safely.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought gender neutral would suffice. The transgender person is 7, What's the big deal???
    I can't get my head around this either and its the case that started this issue in the school system.

    Apparently its been cited that offering a gender neutral washroom is embarrassing for a 7 yr old child and stigmatizes them. As if it outs them.

    Reality is the kid is in grade 2 in the same school in which he was a male in grade 1 and kindergarten. Does anybody think kids didn't notice.

    Every kid in that school would know the child opted for transgender. Not like its any secret.
    The girl in question is a M to F transgender person. She wants to be treated as a girl. She does not want to be singled out for a transgender washroom as she wants to fully intergrate as a girl. Take that out into the bigger world (not a school) transgender people do not want their own transgender facilities. They want to use the bathrooms that their gender is. As for this particular girl only being 7. Perfect age to teach the rest of the kids in the school on this subject. After all they are the next generation. Transgender people do not want to be know as that transgender male or that transgender female. They just want to be know and treated as a male or a female. Try to keep up.
    Last edited by Gemini; 24-09-2015 at 05:24 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  18. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought gender neutral would suffice. The transgender person is 7, What's the big deal???
    I can't get my head around this either and its the case that started this issue in the school system.

    Apparently its been cited that offering a gender neutral washroom is embarrassing for a 7 yr old child and stigmatizes them. As if it outs them.

    Reality is the kid is in grade 2 in the same school in which he was a male in grade 1 and kindergarten. Does anybody think kids didn't notice.

    Every kid in that school would know the child opted for transgender. Not like its any secret.
    The girl in question is a M to F transgender person. She wants to be treated as a girl. She does not want to be singled out for a transgender washroom as she wants to fully intergrate as a girl. Take that out into the bigger world (not a school) transgender people do not want their own transgender facilities. They want to use the bathrooms that their gender is. As for this particular girl only being 7. Perfect age to teach the rest of the kids in the school on this subject. After all they are the next generation. Transgender people do not want to be know as that transgender male or that transgender female. They just want to be know and treated as a male or a female. Try to keep up.
    I'm keeping up fine. The part I don't get is that immature, not fully developed 7 yr olds will consistently and unanimously treat a transgender 7 yr old "just like any other person" I use the term person as to not use that is to gender objectify...

    That's unlikely. The schoolyards I remember are people picking on people for the slightest perceived nonconformity. Which still widely occurs.

    You must have went to different schools.

    The key point is its not the washroom that causes any ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns, embarrassment, its the attitudes themselves. Constructing the perfect washroom won't much change that. Its a lot of barking up wrong trees.
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-09-2015 at 05:45 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    I thought gender neutral would suffice. The transgender person is 7, What's the big deal???
    I can't get my head around this either and its the case that started this issue in the school system.

    Apparently its been cited that offering a gender neutral washroom is embarrassing for a 7 yr old child and stigmatizes them. As if it outs them.

    Reality is the kid is in grade 2 in the same school in which he was a male in grade 1 and kindergarten. Does anybody think kids didn't notice.

    Every kid in that school would know the child opted for transgender. Not like its any secret.
    The girl in question is a M to F transgender person. She wants to be treated as a girl. She does not want to be singled out for a transgender washroom as she wants to fully intergrate as a girl. Take that out into the bigger world (not a school) transgender people do not want their own transgender facilities. They want to use the bathrooms that their gender is. As for this particular girl only being 7. Perfect age to teach the rest of the kids in the school on this subject. After all they are the next generation. Transgender people do not want to be know as that transgender male or that transgender female. They just want to be know and treated as a male or a female. Try to keep up.
    I'm keeping up fine. The part I don't get is that immature, not fully developed 7 yr olds will consistently and unanimously treat a transgender 7 yr old "just like any other person" I use the term person as to not use that is to gender objectify...

    That's unlikely. The schoolyards I remember are people picking on people for the slightest perceived nonconformity. Which still widely occurs.

    You must have went to different schools.

    The key point is its not the washroom that causes any ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns, embarrassment, its the attitudes themselves. Constructing the perfect washroom won't much change that. Its a lot of barking up wrong trees.
    (highlighted by me)

    Well that's great they treat her just like any other person. Therefore, no need for a transgender washroom.
    You are probably at least two generations away from the average 7 year old school girl, maybe even two generations away from the parents. I am sure the western world has evolved in these matters and that 7 year olds are a fair bit more tolerant and knowledgeable than the 7 year olds were in the 50's 60's.
    Last edited by Gemini; 24-09-2015 at 06:16 PM.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  20. #120

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    ^ I don't buy it and actually if you read up its been quite the firestorm and with some students being initially accepting but with other students and their parents wading in and voicing concerns. Not valid concerns imo but indicative that we certainly have a long way to go before acceptance. Its far worse in the US and predictably the right wingnuts, religious zealots, are all polarized against the changes. But much more than that. Whole states have a lot of difficulty with accepting this change.

    I'm fine with the washroom change if that isn't clear. Don't need a lot of convincing. I just question how much resistance we'll see. One of the reasons actually that this thread is here.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  21. #121

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    "Cisgender"

    or

    Cisagenda?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  22. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Well Top_Dawg figgers it's best to use the gender bathroom in accordance with the gender that you are.

    And not be harassed at all.

    Like our ancestors figured out.

    Got a dick - use the men's.

    Got a poon - use the women's.

    Simple.

    And effective.
    And wrong. Your genitals are your sex, not your gender.
    What about the intersex / "third gender" people, if gender neutral washrooms aren't accepted and transgender people get to choose from the current make or female assigned washrooms?
    Bumping my comment forward...

    So what about Intersex ?
    If you're bumping it for me I'm all for one facility for all people, regardless of what their pants or heads or hearts contain. A truly universal policy gets rid of all the "whatabout" issues.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  23. #123
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  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^ I don't buy it and actually if you read up its been quite the firestorm and with some students being initially accepting but with other students and their parents wading in and voicing concerns. Not valid concerns imo but indicative that we certainly have a long way to go before acceptance. Its far worse in the US and predictably the right wingnuts, religious zealots, are all polarized against the changes. But much more than that. Whole states have a lot of difficulty with accepting this change.

    I'm fine with the washroom change if that isn't clear. Don't need a lot of convincing. I just question how much resistance we'll see. One of the reasons actually that this thread is here.
    Look at all the resistance on civil rights, gay rights, disabled rights, legalizing marijuana etc. The changes have to start from some where and not give up at the first hurdle.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  25. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^ I don't buy it and actually if you read up its been quite the firestorm and with some students being initially accepting but with other students and their parents wading in and voicing concerns. Not valid concerns imo but indicative that we certainly have a long way to go before acceptance. Its far worse in the US and predictably the right wingnuts, religious zealots, are all polarized against the changes. But much more than that. Whole states have a lot of difficulty with accepting this change.

    I'm fine with the washroom change if that isn't clear. Don't need a lot of convincing. I just question how much resistance we'll see. One of the reasons actually that this thread is here.
    Look at all the resistance on civil rights, gay rights, disabled rights, legalizing marijuana etc. The changes have to start from some where and not give up at the first hurdle.
    I'm often struck how little progress there is on rights initiatives despite legislative changes.

    I'll repeat the crux of the issue I stated earlier;

    "The key point is its not the washroom that causes any ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns, embarrassment, its the attitudes themselves. Constructing the perfect washroom won't much change that. Its a lot of barking up wrong trees."
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  26. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^ I don't buy it and actually if you read up its been quite the firestorm and with some students being initially accepting but with other students and their parents wading in and voicing concerns. Not valid concerns imo but indicative that we certainly have a long way to go before acceptance. Its far worse in the US and predictably the right wingnuts, religious zealots, are all polarized against the changes. But much more than that. Whole states have a lot of difficulty with accepting this change.

    I'm fine with the washroom change if that isn't clear. Don't need a lot of convincing. I just question how much resistance we'll see. One of the reasons actually that this thread is here.
    Look at all the resistance on civil rights, gay rights, disabled rights, legalizing marijuana etc. The changes have to start from some where and not give up at the first hurdle.
    I'm often struck how little progress there is on rights initiatives despite legislative changes.

    I'll repeat the crux of the issue I stated earlier;

    "The key point is its not the washroom that causes any ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns, embarrassment, its the attitudes themselves. Constructing the perfect washroom won't much change that. Its a lot of barking up wrong trees."
    I'd say the key point is exactly that - the barring of an individual from a washroom, or the systemic exclusionary design of washroom facilities, causes ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns and embarrassment - and it reflects both direct hurtful discrimination and the attitudes themselves of those with the power to set or maintain rules that cause ostracism. The attitudes can and will persist for generations and will never change for some people. Constructing the perfect washroom might be a means to simply "design out the problem". (Like making roads and cars safer from drunk, distracted, incompetent drivers.) Changing attitudes, attaining universal acceptance is a long slow battle. The here and now involves some school official using 'policy' and convention to stop someone at the door and/or further sanction them. That has to be very real to the people at the heart of any such matter.

    Similarly, women here can drive cars without any issue but in Saudi Arabia they are banned and jailed for attempting to drive a car. That contrast is real and tangible. so while in other areas of their lives they are equal to men, the ban on driving shows that the equality has limits there and so the attitudes and the laws aren't universal. Changing the attitudes would be nice, but to women, simply letting them drive would allow them to say: 'Screw your attitude - I have the right to drive and I will drive.' Same with gay rights, etc. A "re-education" campaign might be nice in order to win the war but wars tend to be won one battle at a time - benefits rights, access rights, marriage rights, etc.
    Last edited by KC; 28-09-2015 at 01:54 PM.

  27. #127

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    ^ I haven't at any point disagreed with the notion that present washroom segregation should change.

    What I am clearly stating is that changing the washrooms themselves does not bring about attitudinal change or meaningfully impact acceptance of transgender individuals.

    The main work still needs to be done.

    This is merely a starting point. Theres a profound mistake in thinking that some operational change leads to immediately meaningful inclusion and acceptance.

    Indeed the toxic nature of debate on this issue in many jurisdictions on both sides of the US/Canada border exhibit a sad state of inertia in attitudes.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  28. #128

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    Stuffing men, women, and the inbetweeners into the same washroom would have its initial struggles. Over time, people would adapt and it would become normalized. I personally believe (hope?) it would make us all a touch more civilized.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  29. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^ I haven't at any point disagreed with the notion that present washroom segregation should change.

    What I am clearly stating is that changing the washrooms themselves does not bring about attitudinal change or meaningfully impact acceptance of transgender individuals.

    The main work still needs to be done.

    This is merely a starting point. Theres a profound mistake in thinking that some operational change leads to immediately meaningful inclusion and acceptance.

    Indeed the toxic nature of debate on this issue in many jurisdictions on both sides of the US/Canada border exhibit a sad state of inertia in attitudes.
    Here you go, waffling on. Of course there is a lot of work to be done but people have to start somewhere. It may take a long time but you get 5% of the people on board, then 10% on board, 30% on board then go from there. You go into defeat mode before the battle has began.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ^ I haven't at any point disagreed with the notion that present washroom segregation should change.

    What I am clearly stating is that changing the washrooms themselves does not bring about attitudinal change or meaningfully impact acceptance of transgender individuals.

    The main work still needs to be done.

    This is merely a starting point. Theres a profound mistake in thinking that some operational change leads to immediately meaningful inclusion and acceptance.

    Indeed the toxic nature of debate on this issue in many jurisdictions on both sides of the US/Canada border exhibit a sad state of inertia in attitudes.
    Here you go, waffling on. Of course there is a lot of work to be done but people have to start somewhere. It may take a long time but you get 5% of the people on board, then 10% on board, 30% on board then go from there. You go into defeat mode before the battle has began.
    Has little to do with me, I'm observing a world that is found mostly lacking in receptivity.

    Anything else you want to fault me on?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  31. #131

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    ^We are being 'receptive' but you are too busy waffling on to notice. For every positive someone has mentioned you are finding a negative. People take a long time to change, we have a long way to go, this sh*t won't fly, yadda yadda yadda. Others are saying, let's get this thing done, there are ways we can change this, this is what we should do, let's start now.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  32. #132
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    I don't think cramming everyone into the same bathroom is the answer. I don't think people will go for it. What we need is a row of individual bathrooms with doors that lock. Like the family style bathrooms. Even gas stations now have same sex bathrooms, like at home, but you just go in one at a time and have your privacy. This will be the future I think. Instead of large bathrooms with everyone in them there will be several individual bathrooms where one can be comfortable alone IMO.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 28-09-2015 at 10:35 PM.

  33. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^We are being 'receptive' but you are too busy waffling on to notice. For every positive someone has mentioned you are finding a negative. People take a long time to change, we have a long way to go, this sh*t won't fly, yadda yadda yadda. Others are saying, let's get this thing done, there are ways we can change this, this is what we should do, let's start now.
    I wasn't aware you represented the rest of the world just rearing up for change.

    Fact of the matter is it doesn't matter at all what you or I think. Not that we think differently on this. I'm just being a bit of a realist in knowing that attitudinal change is glacial.

    if you think that's being just negative and you being a positive panda you're welcome to that feeling.

    Next, Edmonton doesn't change the world, no matter what we do. Yet all I see is lets end poverty, lets end prejudice, lets end war, lets end Nuclear proliferation, lets end Celine Dion...

    But really this is but a municipality and I'm a little bemused how much energy this city, and it various services and infrastructure spends time trying to fix things that aren't going to be fixed. I'm talking in general not just this issue.

    To the city, maybe just run a city and stop being idealism.ca

    End poverty? Yeah, as if that's happening anytime soon in Alberta.

    To the schools maybe just focus on curriculum and education and don't spend months reinventing a debate that has happened in 100's of other jurisdictions that impacts lets say a dozen students in the whole school system.

    New City of Edmonton signs should read;

    Edmonton. City of opening up every imaginable rabbit hole issue faced on the planet and known to mankind. (I hope I spelled that correctly)
    I don't know that any civic jurisdiction anywhere over processes anything more than what occurs here. Given that by now I pretty much refuse to join any boards in this city.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-09-2015 at 10:43 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  34. #134

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    Cant see several single individual bathrooms working at bigger venues unless the crew that go to see the Rolling Stones are all in Depends. Most public washrooms are designed that the male/female bathrooms are back to back as usually they share the same plumbing. If it's the sinks that share the same plumbing they could in some places knock through the walls have a row of back to back sinks the toilets would be against each wall, then it could become transgender.
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  35. #135
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    It will be both, it's already starting. Men's, ladies, plus several individual bathrooms. I personally would not feel too comfortable having a gassy crap knowing a pretty lady was in the next cubicle.

  36. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    ^We are being 'receptive' but you are too busy waffling on to notice. For every positive someone has mentioned you are finding a negative. People take a long time to change, we have a long way to go, this sh*t won't fly, yadda yadda yadda. Others are saying, let's get this thing done, there are ways we can change this, this is what we should do, let's start now.
    I wasn't aware you represented the rest of the world just rearing up for change.

    Fact of the matter is it doesn't matter at all what you or I think. Not that we think differently on this. I'm just being a bit of a realist in knowing that such change is glacial.

    if you think that's being just negative and you being a positive panda you're welcome to that feeling.

    Next, Edmonton doesn't change the world, no matter what we do. Yet all I see is lets end poverty, lets end prejudice, lets end war, lets end Nuclear proliferation, lets end Celine Dion...

    But really this is but a municipality and I'm a little bemused how much energy this city, and it various services and infrastructure spends time trying to fix things that aren't going to be fixed. I'm talking in general not just this issue.

    To the city, maybe just run a city and stop being idealism.ca

    End poverty? Yeah, as if that's happening anytime soon in Alberta.

    To the schools maybe just focus on curriculum and education and don't spend months reinventing a debate that has happened in 100's of other jurisdictions.

    New signs should read;

    Edmonton. City of opening up every rabbit hole issue faced on the planet and known to mankind.

    I don't know that any civic jurisdiction anywhere over processes anything more than what occurs here. Given that by now I pretty much refuse to join any boards in this city.
    .......and Rosa Parks was just a little old lady, and Terry Fox was just 1 of many cancer suffers, Anne Frank holocaust victim, Steve Jobs computer geek, the list is endless.
    These ever day people changed so many people's perception of why and how things were done. Never underestimate the power on one person.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  37. #137

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    Underestimate the power or one? I don't. but just as often its the power of dolts like this potentially getting elected and "making a difference". Like a Ralph Klein every 10 or so years to wreck everything real good.


    I know you'll like this one;

    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/09...n_8186098.html

    A school board member for 5yrs, Current Vice Chair of a Hamilton school board, doesn't even know anything about Auschwitz. She's also a former Social Worker and University graduate, Masters level educated fwiw.

    Not that this has much to do with anything but a moment of levity.

    I'll go back to being bemused.
    Last edited by Replacement; 28-09-2015 at 11:01 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  38. #138

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    Maybe, just maybe, the simple solution to a very complex problem IS a universal washroom.

    Seriously... We hear a lot about cis-gender this, trans-gender that, identification and selection and blah and blah.

    And the more tolerant we try to be, with the best possible intent, the more perverse and less natural the situations that come up are.

    Perhaps because we have sexualized everything to the maximum.

    And lack of comfort with one's biological sex is just the unnatural but statistically inevitable reaction to our own sex/gender/panting sickness.

    It seems worthy to de-sexualize sex, and to de-emphasize gender.

    And starting with universal washrooms everywhere is as good a place as any.

    If that's a success, perhaps we can go to common changing rooms as well. That's... unlikely possible just now. But imagine a world without the sick hormone pumping of the average locker room. Yes, it's a dream. But kind of a nice one.

  39. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    "The key point is its not the washroom that causes any ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns, embarrassment, its the attitudes themselves. Constructing the perfect washroom won't much change that. Its a lot of barking up wrong trees."
    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Mix the difference together and a lot of it vanishes.

    My parents' generation, in another country in the mid-1950s, went to single-sex high schools. In which 16-year old girls considered boys creatures from another planet and vice versa. For the final grade, all public schools were mixed by government decree.

    It took about a month for most of the students, boys and girls alike, to adjust.

    Or, if my story didn't hit the mark, perhaps the American experience with desegregation will.

    To take Replacement's seemingly concerned but actually truly shameful and odious point to its conclusion, the cure for racism is separate but equal facilities.

    Apartheid.

    Well, that IS what Canada has come to stand for of late.

  40. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    "The key point is its not the washroom that causes any ostracism, tender feelings, putdowns, embarrassment, its the attitudes themselves. Constructing the perfect washroom won't much change that. Its a lot of barking up wrong trees."
    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Mix the difference together and a lot of it vanishes.

    My parents' generation, in another country in the mid-1950s, went to single-sex high schools. In which 16-year old girls considered boys creatures from another planet and vice versa. For the final grade, all public schools were mixed by government decree.

    It took about a month for most of the students, boys and girls alike, to adjust.

    Or, if my story didn't hit the mark, perhaps the American experience with desegregation will.

    To take Replacement's seemingly concerned but actually truly shameful and odious point to its conclusion, the cure for racism is separate but equal facilities.

    Apartheid.

    Well, that IS what Canada has come to stand for of late.

    Do you have trouble reading? Or comprehending?

    The quote above is selective. At no point in the thread have I stated or indicated I am opposed to the desegregation of washrooms. Multiple times I have stated clearly I am in favor of it. My clear position is stated again in response to KC a mere dozen posts above. It would be legitimately impossible for you to have read the thread and come to the entirely wrong conclusion on what I have said. Meaning you probably didn't even read the thread prior to your erroneous conclusions.

    Save your pompous reaction.
    Last edited by Replacement; 29-09-2015 at 12:16 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  41. #141
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    Life caught up with me last week so I've missed most of this since Thursday. Discussion seems to be going downhill. :/

    I will point to this good interview with mother in St. Albert. It provides their perspective quite well.

    Mother of Trans Child Bullied By Catholic School Board Speaks Out: “I Will Fight To Move Mountains For That Kid”

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  42. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Do you have trouble reading? Or comprehending?


    Neither.

    I have a problem with pretending hypocrites who lack the wit and the courage to take their supposedly tolerant views to their logical conclusion.

    Take your sophistication and stuff it.

    That's as pompous as I could make it. If it's pompous enough, I'll take it as a compliment.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Life caught up with me last week so I've missed most of this since Thursday. Discussion seems to be going downhill. :/

    I will point to this good interview with mother in St. Albert. It provides their perspective quite well.

    Mother of Trans Child Bullied By Catholic School Board Speaks Out: “I Will Fight To Move Mountains For That Kid”
    I grew up with a brother that( now we know) was all about being a female. His thoughts, his actions were put down as being gay at the time. It must of been so difficult for him to live with this. The only reason I posted about gender neutral toilets ,was I thought this might be a solution. I don't know all the facts, I just know there is so much more to this subject than any of us know.I want this child to be happy, and that's all I want.Transgender children know at a very early age what sex they are, not the parts, the feelings, they are very real.

  44. #144

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Do you have trouble reading? Or comprehending?


    Neither.

    I have a problem with pretending hypocrites who lack the wit and the courage to take their supposedly tolerant views to their logical conclusion.

    Take your sophistication and stuff it.

    That's as pompous as I could make it. If it's pompous enough, I'll take it as a compliment.
    Bolded ftr.

    You don't know me and I wouldn't have it any other way.

    This is your game, assumptively judging others online.

    Not interested.
    Last edited by Replacement; 29-09-2015 at 07:39 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  45. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Life caught up with me last week so I've missed most of this since Thursday. Discussion seems to be going downhill. :/

    I will point to this good interview with mother in St. Albert. It provides their perspective quite well.

    Mother of Trans Child Bullied By Catholic School Board Speaks Out: “I Will Fight To Move Mountains For That Kid”
    I grew up with a brother that( now we know) was all about being a female. His thoughts, his actions were put down as being gay at the time. It must of been so difficult for him to live with this. The only reason I posted about gender neutral toilets ,was I thought this might be a solution. I don't know all the facts, I just know there is so much more to this subject than any of us know.I want this child to be happy, and that's all I want.Transgender children know at a very early age what sex they are, not the parts, the feelings, they are very real.
    A very informative article everyone should read (from one perspective of course). I liked this comment...


    So after I put them to bed that night, I typed that statement into Google, and that’s where I learned what the word “transgender” was, and as soon as I knew, I was on the phone the next day. When I became pregnant, it’s funny, because you’re asked, “What do you want, a boy or a girl?” And the response is always, “It doesn’t matter, as long as they’re healthy.” Well, at what point does that change? It doesn’t matter what I have. It doesn’t matter their gender, as long as they’re healthy. My child is my child, and as long as she’s healthy, mentally and physically, it doesn’t matter. Nothing else matters. And I will fight to move mountains for that kid.


    Also worth thinking about...


    I think it’s just really important that as a society, we start thinking outside the box on this. Some girls have penises and some boys have vaginas, and it’s as simple as that. Your genitalia does not make you who you are. Your heart and your brain do. It’s no different than having an extra toe or missing a leg or an arm. Transgender people deserve to be treated just like any other person, and again, history has repeated itself so many times. Let’s just get on the right side of history, so in 62 years we can look back on this and just think, “Oh my gosh, I can’t even believe it was a problem.”

    Last edited by KC; 29-09-2015 at 08:20 PM.

  46. #146

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    Problems with the way this is handled start with the total confusion between sex and gender. Sex is physical. Gender is behavioral. It is sex that is reassigned or changed, not gender. Gender is merely selected.

    Girls do not have penises and boys do not have vaginas. Full stop. Let's keep the meaning of our words straight. Sex is determined by the exterior organs. Full stop.

    ---

    Either way, however, the problem is the growing number of people who are not prepared to accept their sex and seek reassignment or re-selection. Rather, they are not the problem. They have a problem. However you put it, what they want is not natural and causes them a great deal of grief. And that grief is why it is in fact a problem. To deny this point is to cause further harm. Don't go there.

    One must be as welcoming as possible toward whatever choices they wind up making. That goes without saying, for all else is not worthy behavior.

    But the real issue is why the incidence of preferred gender not matching sex is growing.

    This is quite the wicked problem, but gordian knots are always best simply chopped.

    If gender roles -- sharply distinct gender roles and collective attitudes about proper behaviour for each gender -- have become such that a growing number will no longer accept them -- then minimize the distinctions.

    And since the mind is not accessible, but external behavior can be legislated, do something to enforce behavior.

    Starting with washrooms is a perfect first step. It is subtle, unobtrusive, and may yet prove very effective.

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Problems with the way this is handled start with the total confusion between sex and gender. Sex is physical. Gender is behavioral. It is sex that is reassigned or changed, not gender. Gender is merely selected.

    Girls do not have penises and boys do not have vaginas. Full stop. Let's keep the meaning of our words straight. Sex is determined by the exterior organs. Full stop.

    ---

    Either way, however, the problem is the growing number of people who are not prepared to accept their sex and seek reassignment or re-selection. Rather, they are not the problem. They have a problem. However you put it, what they want is not natural and causes them a great deal of grief. And that grief is why it is in fact a problem. To deny this point is to cause further harm. Don't go there.

    One must be as welcoming as possible toward whatever choices they wind up making. That goes without saying, for all else is not worthy behavior.

    But the real issue is why the incidence of preferred gender not matching sex is growing.

    This is quite the wicked problem, but gordian knots are always best simply chopped.

    If gender roles -- sharply distinct gender roles and collective attitudes about proper behaviour for each gender -- have become such that a growing number will no longer accept them -- then minimize the distinctions.

    And since the mind is not accessible, but external behavior can be legislated, do something to enforce behavior.

    Starting with washrooms is a perfect first step. It is subtle, unobtrusive, and may yet prove very effective.
    Somewhat agree. The use of the word "natural" caught my attention. Repairing the heart of a child born with some problem is solving the problem. It's hard to say whether or not the problem is natural or not. Environmental influences, birth order, number of preceding births, choice of and age of father and mother and a whole host of other issues affect what might be considered "natural". If tallness or shortness was deemed a problem in society we'd try to correct for that even when there is no "medical" need to correct for it. It's about acceptance and societal norms in some cases. It's all too deep Nd complex for me to understand so I'm quite ok with listening to and accepting change rather than protesting things I don't fully comprehend - or judging them against my ideas of what I see as 'normal' despite my knowing that I don't know what truly is normal.
    Last edited by KC; 30-09-2015 at 08:52 AM.

  48. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    An individual's gender identity is established quite early and solidified by the age of about seven.
    I'm a little leery about such unequivocal classification based on age.

    I grew up a male, straight, but the one time I came closest to "wavering" I think I must have been nine or early ten, when for fun I tried cross-dressing one day. (Except, was it really for fun? Looking back on it grade four was about when I noticed boys really starting to act like "boys" and girls like "girls", and I may have been uncomfortable. Who knows.) My parents laughed, twirled me in front of the mirror, said I looked like a cute girl, and then told me I didn't swing my hips enough when I mocked. Then when I tried to do it they laughed a little less friendly and said I was so bad it it I should go back to being a boy. I did. And never once felt like repeating the experiment.

    I'm not making a big deal of this because it was scarcely a big deal at the time. But in fact I was nine or ten. That silly thought never came to me, before or after, and certainly never before seven.
    Last edited by AShetsen; 30-09-2015 at 08:41 AM.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    ...Either way, however, the problem is the growing number of people who are not prepared to accept their sex and seek reassignment or re-selection. Rather, they are not the problem. They have a problem. However you put it, what they want is not natural and causes them a great deal of grief. And that grief is why it is in fact a problem. To deny this point is to cause further harm. Don't go there.
    Not in line with cultural norms does not mean it's not natural. The 'problem' transgender people have is with how the rest of society treats them. The solution lies with the rest of society accepting these people for who they are and recognizing their fundamental rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    But the real issue is why the incidence of preferred gender not matching sex is growing.
    Is it? Research on the prevalence of transgender people within the population is very sketchy and it would be next to impossible to determine what rates were even a few decades ago. All we can measure are the numbers of openly transgender people. That number is growing because of growing legal protections and societal acceptance.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    ...Either way, however, the problem is the growing number of people who are not prepared to accept their sex and seek reassignment or re-selection. Rather, they are not the problem. They have a problem. However you put it, what they want is not natural and causes them a great deal of grief. And that grief is why it is in fact a problem. To deny this point is to cause further harm. Don't go there.
    Not in line with cultural norms does not mean it's not natural. The 'problem' transgender people have is with how the rest of society treats them. The solution lies with the rest of society accepting these people for who they are and recognizing their fundamental rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    But the real issue is why the incidence of preferred gender not matching sex is growing.
    Is it? Research on the prevalence of transgender people within the population is very sketchy and it would be next to impossible to determine what rates were even a few decades ago. All we can measure are the numbers of openly transgender people. That number is growing because of growing legal protections and societal acceptance.
    Of course it's not natural.

    The gender, not sex, definitions of "Boy" and 'Girl" are 100% social.

    What's completely natural is for boys and girls, men and women (the natural kind, sex not gender) to deviate, sometimes significantly, from the social stereotypes that have been clumsily constructed from their sex's normal (as in, merely most common) characteristics.

    And then they get told that their favourite toys are for the other sex, that the things they like to do are something the other sex does.

  51. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Not in line with cultural norms does not mean it's not natural. The 'problem' transgender people have is with how the rest of society treats them. The solution lies with the rest of society accepting these people for who they are and recognizing their fundamental rights.
    Social norms cannot really be denied. And individual acceptance is extremely unlikely: when told to accept, almost no one accepts. If people cannot accept facial scarves, don't expect them to accept mis-identification with sexual organs.

    Solution lies in subtle and unobtrusive social engineering. Less preaching, please.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Not in line with cultural norms does not mean it's not natural. The 'problem' transgender people have is with how the rest of society treats them. The solution lies with the rest of society accepting these people for who they are and recognizing their fundamental rights.
    Social norms cannot really be denied. And individual acceptance is extremely unlikely: when told to accept, almost no one accepts. If people cannot accept facial scarves, don't expect them to accept mis-identification with sexual organs.

    Solution lies in subtle and unobtrusive social engineering. Less preaching, please.
    Social norms are rarely changed without actively challenging them. By your argument Rosa Parks should have taken her seat and shut up.
    Last edited by Paul Turnbull; 30-09-2015 at 12:39 PM.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  53. #153

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    Aren't public bathrooms a problem? Someone who was born male using a women's bathroom or whatever?
    It hasn't been, and there is literally no reason to think it should be. Not to put too fine a point on it, but trans people use the restroom, same as everyone else, every day, same as everyone else; if they were any risk, you'd have long since heard about it, because hundreds of thousands of trans people have been using public accommodations for decades. For all of the demonization of and scare-mongering about trans people in the media, there has literally never been a problem.

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love...ople-answered/
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  54. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Not in line with cultural norms does not mean it's not natural. The 'problem' transgender people have is with how the rest of society treats them. The solution lies with the rest of society accepting these people for who they are and recognizing their fundamental rights.
    Social norms cannot really be denied. And individual acceptance is extremely unlikely: when told to accept, almost no one accepts. If people cannot accept facial scarves, don't expect them to accept mis-identification with sexual organs.

    Solution lies in subtle and unobtrusive social engineering. Less preaching, please.
    Social norms are rarely changed without actively challenging them. By your argument Rosa Parks should have taken her seat and shut up.
    Well, I've made much the same point to another poster above, so I guess your comment is fair game. Let me a little more specific.

    Unlike the American "Negro problem", which involved and likely still involves whole strata of society and widespread mob murder, issues of gender identity are confined to individuals, separated and thus wholly individual regardless of their actual numbers.

    In any case after half a century of explicit affirmative action, the races in the USA seem still seem largely separated and alarmingly antagonistic.

    I think more subtle ways than large-scale social propagada are called for here.

  55. #155
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    More asshattery out of the Catholic school board.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ersy-1.3253574

    Time to dissolve the Catholic school system completely and bring Alberta education up to 21st century standards.

  56. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    More asshattery out of the Catholic school board.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ersy-1.3253574

    Time to dissolve the Catholic school system completely and bring Alberta education up to 21st century standards.
    This is getting into that old natural vs unnatural territory. ... Heart defects and other aspects of our bodies that we try to correct for?

    From the article above...
    In the four-page document, the superintendents association said that gender identity, according to Catholic teaching, is rooted in biology.

    Human beings, they wrote, quoting from the National Catholic Bioethics Centre, are "obligated to regard [their bodies] as good and to hold [them] in honour since God has created them. Therefore, to attempt 'gender transitioning' is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church."

    As if we even know what is "natural" and what isn't... (Case in point: Thalidomide and the story of discovering its impacts.)



    http://i.cbc.ca/1.1644412.1379073771...20-rtxi5wh.jpg

    ..or simply a population's average height...


    Netherlands: Tallest people on Earth getting taller due to natural selection
    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/netherlands...ection-1495275

    Last edited by KC; 02-10-2015 at 07:09 AM.

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AShetsen View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Not in line with cultural norms does not mean it's not natural. The 'problem' transgender people have is with how the rest of society treats them. The solution lies with the rest of society accepting these people for who they are and recognizing their fundamental rights.
    Social norms cannot really be denied. And individual acceptance is extremely unlikely: when told to accept, almost no one accepts. If people cannot accept facial scarves, don't expect them to accept mis-identification with sexual organs.

    Solution lies in subtle and unobtrusive social engineering. Less preaching, please.
    Social norms are rarely changed without actively challenging them. By your argument Rosa Parks should have taken her seat and shut up.
    Well, I've made much the same point to another poster above, so I guess your comment is fair game. Let me a little more specific.

    Unlike the American "Negro problem", which involved and likely still involves whole strata of society and widespread mob murder, issues of gender identity are confined to individuals, separated and thus wholly individual regardless of their actual numbers.

    In any case after half a century of explicit affirmative action, the races in the USA seem still seem largely separated and alarmingly antagonistic.

    I think more subtle ways than large-scale social propagada are called for here.
    Fair enough, race politics in the U.S. is perhaps not a good analogy. More appropriate would be LGBT rights, which transgender rights are a part of. The first three groups have achieved a great deal with very public activism.

    I am curious, though, as to exactly what "unobtrusive social engineering" you would suggest be done and who you believe should be doing it?

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

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    Activism can help in eliminating officially sanctioned discrimination, like old US laws that allowed public transit services to reserve seats for white people or laws that restricted marriage to opposite sex couples. However, it it much more difficult to change attitudes.

  59. #159

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    ^^Read my posts 138 and 146.

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    What a silly debate. It would be great if schools paid this much attention to teaching and learning.

    Maybe it's time we just made all washrooms accessible to anyone who needs to use it, regardless of sexual orientation.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    What a silly debate. It would be great if schools paid this much attention to teaching and learning.

    Maybe it's time we just made all washrooms accessible to anyone who needs to use it, regardless of sexual orientation.
    With two kids in grade eight now my experience has been the schools pay a lot of attention to teaching and learning. Notably this debate is more at the board level than in the school. In the school the teachers and staff working to give a good learning environment for all their students.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  62. #162

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    Just cross-referencing an interesting discussion here...

    Removing Gender from Birth Cetificates - Connect2Edmonton
    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ight=Parenting

  63. #163

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    On Greer... Aren't there women out there with what might be seen as having a lot of manly characteristics? I wonder what she thinks about them.

    If exposure to testosterone causes degrees of mental and possibly undiscovered biological differences, then isn't that as worthy of consideration as the obvious physical / biological conditions?

    Jen Gerson: Is noted feminist Germaine Greer a hateful anti-transgender misogynist? | National Post
    http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...red-misogynist

  64. #164

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    Germaine Greer is of another era. Kaitlyn Jenner, tired of hearing about it.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  65. #165
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    No, she's just not p.c., not afraid to offend, and, when it comes down to it...

    She's 100% right. Insensitive, sure. Maybe not helpful to those who insist they are not what they are.

    But right.

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    http://www.charlierose.com/watch/60578677

    A round table with a panel of experts in the field of Gender Identity. it is a hour long

  67. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    No, she's just not p.c., not afraid to offend, and, when it comes down to it...

    She's 100% right. Insensitive, sure. Maybe not helpful to those who insist they are not what they are.

    But right.
    "But right"

    I don't know if biology is as simplistic as many believed it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    No, she's just not p.c., not afraid to offend, and, when it comes down to it...

    She's 100% right. Insensitive, sure. Maybe not helpful to those who insist they are not what they are.

    But right.
    Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

    People aren't insisting they aren't what they are, they are hoping to be accepted for what they know they are.

    Why is it some people, like Greer, insist on defining people according to their own limited self constructed paradigm? What's it to them? Are they threatened in any way?

    I'd recommend the Charlie Rose episode posted by piglet as a starting point to realizing that biology really isn't as straightforward as some would like to make it.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

  69. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    No, she's just not p.c., not afraid to offend, and, when it comes down to it...

    She's 100% right. Insensitive, sure. Maybe not helpful to those who insist they are not what they are.

    But right.
    Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

    People aren't insisting they aren't what they are, they are hoping to be accepted for what they know they are.

    Why is it some people, like Greer, insist on defining people according to their own limited self constructed paradigm? What's it to them? Are they threatened in any way?

    I'd recommend the Charlie Rose episode posted by piglet as a starting point to realizing that biology really isn't as straightforward as some would like to make it.
    I'd replace "know they are" with "think they are". I don't know if anyone can truly "know" why they think the way they do.

    As for limited self constructed paradigm, we live in a world full of people who's depth of understanding has been informed sound bytes - and based on limited thought bytes. (Much of my limited views are similarly derived but at least I know I'm an ***** when it comes to most if not ALL subjects.)

  70. #170

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    Interesting article... Says nothing about transgenders but shows how little we know about the spectrum(s) of human conditions...

    Plus has an Edmonton reference too...


    BBC - Future - Is another human living inside you?

    Nelson has found that even as an adult, you are not immune from human invaders. A couple of years ago, Nelson and William Chan at the University of Alberta in Edmonton took slices of women’s brain tissue and screened their genome for signs of the Y-chromosome. Around 63% were harbouring male cells. “Not only did we find male DNA in female human brains as a general observation, we found it to be present in multiple brain regions,” says Chan. In other words, their brains were speckled with cells from a man’s body. One logical conclusion is that it came from ...

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2015...ing-inside-you

  71. #171

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    Wow. Where does one begin?

    Calgary Catholic bishop lambastes Alberta Education's 'totalitarian' guidelines for transgender policies - Edmonton Journal
    ...

    In a letter sent to media, Bishop Frederick Henry said the government created the guidelines without consulting with and with no sensitivity to the Catholic community.

    “Our teaching is rather simple and direct,” Henry wrote. “In (God’s) plan, men and women should respect and accept their sexual identity.”

    ...
    Bolding mine.

    Too funny, sanctimoniously speaking.

  72. #172

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    Amalgamate those the separate and public school boards. Religions interference just muddies the waters. If you want to bring your kids up with religions teachings take them to a place of worship (where they can get totally f*kced up.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  73. #173

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    Alberta’s education minister may consider dissolution of the Edmonton Catholic school board as he meets with a consultant in the next 48 hours over the board’s continuing dysfunction.
    “I’m very concerned,” David Eggen said Tuesday. On Friday, a majority of Catholic trustees decided, without the input of their chairwoman Marilyn Bergstra, to send parents a link to a scathing letter about transgender issues by Calgary Bishop Fred Henry.
    Bergstra, who was at another meeting at the time, said Monday she wouldn’t have advised the move, which followed three months of working with a ministry-appointed facilitator over problems around governance issues.
    Don Cummings, whose report to Eggen was due last week, was appointed after a series of board meetings dissolved into chaos over transgender policies.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...board-problems

    Hopefully this dissolution of the Separate School Board makes the Education Dept pause and sometime in the future amalgamate the EPSB & SSB into one. The SSB is in a mess. It seems they cannot organize a one man parade at the moment.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  74. #174

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    Alberta’s education minister may consider dissolution of the Edmonton Catholic school board as he meets with a consultant in the next 48 hours over the board’s continuing dysfunction.
    “I’m very concerned,” David Eggen said Tuesday. On Friday, a majority of Catholic trustees decided, without the input of their chairwoman Marilyn Bergstra, to send parents a link to a scathing letter about transgender issues by Calgary Bishop Fred Henry.
    Bergstra, who was at another meeting at the time, said Monday she wouldn’t have advised the move, which followed three months of working with a ministry-appointed facilitator over problems around governance issues.
    Don Cummings, whose report to Eggen was due last week, was appointed after a series of board meetings dissolved into chaos over transgender policies.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...board-problems

    Reading this part of the article it seems there are some power struggles going on. The trustees doing things without the input of their chairwomen even after the board working with a government appointed facilitator. Seems like the lot of them are as dysfunctional as their religion is.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  75. #175

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    Sounds like a lot of the board is following the bishop, not the law. Well, the bishop doesn't fund the system, so he can just f--k right off. We need to dissolve the entire Catholic school system. One public, secular system. Religion can be taught at home and church.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  76. #176

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    The school system should be consolidated into one rather than separate systems. We would save a fortune and not have to deal with this nonsense

  77. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Sounds like a lot of the board is following the bishop, not the law. Well, the bishop doesn't fund the system, so he can just f--k right off. We need to dissolve the entire Catholic school system. One public, secular system. Religion can be taught at home and church.
    Hey potty mouth, things are already going down the toilet.

    I figure the answer is: One person, one bathroom.

    Floor to ceiling walls and a door and maybe a small sink. That works in airplanes.

    Now if we could teach males how to pee in the toilet and not on the seats and floor, and others not to stand on the seats and dump on everything, that would be progressive change. Hand washing though will be an ever elusive dream. (In restaurants, etc. it's always interesting to note the guys that just walk out then sit down with their families.)
    Last edited by KC; 19-01-2016 at 06:23 PM.

  78. #178

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    Men's washrooms are gross... until you see the women's. Go talk to any janitorial company for confirmation. I work with a bunch of cleaning companies, and there's very likely some real PTSD from cleaning women's restrooms.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  79. #179

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    I'm hoping they go to single-unit washrooms. The Four Points in Ellerslie has I think 6 individual washrooms, and then a men's with a bunch of urinals. I would have went #2 in junior/high school lot more if that was the case.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Papists get preferential treatment in their own schools, but they do not have exclusive access.
    Hahahaha... This is hilarious. Papists... Last time I heard that it came out of the mouth of a klansman.

    From Wikipedia:
    Papist is a sectarian term referring to the Roman Catholic Church, its teachings, practices, or adherents. It is usually understood as a disparaging term.

    That's rich considering the point of this thread is about tolerance and respecting differences.

    This whole issue is just a bandwagon of fools. If the government is serious about this issue all they need to do is provide minimal funds to each school. It would be quick and easy to install a number of toilet & sinks in small, individual rooms along any hallway and put on locking doors. They could take one of the existing bathrooms and install urinals in them.

    That would mean that anyone who preferred to pee standing up could use the urinals, and anyone who preferred to pee in the sitting position (or needed to void their bowels) could use the toilet rooms. There would be no need to worry about security because the doors would open onto a common hall. As far as worries about the cleanliness of these genderless toilet rooms, maybe the stakeholders should take an active part in cleaning their bathrooms. People are always touting the academic superiority of Asian schools, maybe we should look at what is Expected of the Average Student in a country like Japan.

    But our NDP government won't do that because they don't give a pee/poop about fixing this problem. It keeps media scrutiny off their inactivity. Or maybe they share a common love of Catholics with the likes of Noodle.
    Last edited by BoyleStreetBoy; 28-01-2016 at 11:24 PM.
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  81. #181

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    I actually got it from Hell On Wheels, a lovely Alberta-produced series about the American transcontinental railroad shortly after their Civil War. But I appreciate you trying to insinuate I'm a Klansman.

    I've no tolerance for intolerant & backwards institutions. Expecting me to respect their disrespect is laughable, much like your attempt to straw man me.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I actually got it from Hell On Wheels, a lovely Alberta-produced series about the American transcontinental railroad shortly after their Civil War. But I appreciate you trying to insinuate I'm a Klansman.

    I've no tolerance for intolerant & backwards institutions. Expecting me to respect their disrespect is laughable, much like your attempt to straw man me.
    Straw man you? I love the irony. No, I didn't insinuate you were a klansman.

    My remark was that I have heard that kind of intolerant talk before. Go back and read it again. I'll type slower.

    As far as backwards institutions, who in that institution are you insinuating is intolerant & backwards? The "Papists" who are supportive of the transgender equality issue, or those who are unsupportive? You obviously haven't been following the issue.
    ˙
    ...From this ragged handful of tents and cabins one day will rise a city...

  83. #183

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    I mean, I've not been following it super-duper closely, but I read the articles about the (at least) two Bishops trying to judge & pigeonhole the diverse modern world using their book of Middle Eastern Bronze Age superstitions & the Education Minister being so disappointed with an obviously dysfunctional School Board that dissolution is on the table.

    As a secular humanist I'm gonna side with the Education Minister & the current (secular) ever-evolving understanding of modern gender & sexuality issues. Not the magic book nor its followers trapped in a hurtful, intolerant, outmoded & incompatible world view. Dissolve the board.

    Also, I was born & raised a Catholic. My dislike for all religion was first formed through hands on experience with the Catholic faith, its clergy & its discriminatory policies.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  84. #184
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    Hands on.



    Good one noodle.

  85. #185

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    Continuing to fund the separate system only feeds their superiority complex and assumption that they are owed more than any other.

    We're not hearing from any other religious group* that they don't want gender equality in public schools. More recently, we're not hearing from any other religious group* that they are opposed to the dying with dignity issue.

    *there are probably a few people scattered around in both camps but they simply aren't trying to force everyone else to follow their rules.

    I don't understand why we are funding both separate schools and covenant health. I concede that I am not fully aware of the intricacies of covenant health and may be making inaccurate assumptions.

    There is a group organized through a fb page working to hopefully eventually put an end to publicly funded faith based education.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/APUPIL/

  86. #186
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    Here's some articles to further muddy the waters of discussion on this topic...

    Australian man sues over transsexual "diagnosis"

    The other side of the coin

    Trouble In Transtopia: Murmurs Of Sex Change Regret
    ˙
    ...From this ragged handful of tents and cabins one day will rise a city...

  87. #187

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    Edmonton-area Catholic school board spent $367,000 to defend firing trans teacher.
    An Alberta Catholic school board has spent $367,188 to defend its dismissal of a transgender teacher, documents obtained by Progress Alberta through a Freedom of Information and Protection request say.
    Jan Buterman was removed from the Greater St. Albert Catholic Schools’ substitute teacher list in 2008 after he transitioned genders from female to male.
    Buterman filed an official complaint with the Alberta Human Rights Commission in 2009. The released documents say the school board racked up the legal costs defending itself in the matter with Buterman between 2009 and 2013. The documents show no money spent since 2014, though the proceedings are ongoing.
    “We think taxpayers should know how much this 100-per-cent publicly funded school board is spending on a legal case to determine whether they can fire someone for being transgender,” Progress Alberta executive director Duncan Kinney said of his advocacy’s group decision to file a request for the information in March.

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...-trans-teacher

    Utter and complete waste of money and it's still ongoing. Give the guy his job back.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  88. #188
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    Mr. Butterman has it 100% right. What a waste of money. Good for him for embarrassing the school board. The catholic school board shouldn't get a dime of public money.

  89. #189

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    Catholic School Boards should be disbanded. Taxpayers are paying for their bigotry.
    In this case archaic religious rights should not override human rights.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

  90. #190

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    Our school boards are comedic....catholic or public.

    Fire a teacher for giving zeroes because he went against a ludicrous policy. And fire a teacher because he does not fit your ideals while you preach love everyone at the same time.

    What kind of people sit atop these boards and how do they land these positions? Shouldn't we develop an IQ and common sense test for these people....it is related to the school system...so writing some entrance tests shouldn't matter?

  91. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Catholic School Boards should be disbanded. Taxpayers are paying for their bigotry.
    In this case archaic religious rights should not override human rights.
    See, but you assume all those taxpayers are against that kind of bigotry. I know plenty who agree with that stance. Hence, why you can choose where your money goes from your property taxes when it comes to schools.

    Personally, I got no issues but assuming everyone is going to see things my way is just not reality.

  92. #192
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    No I can't choose. The Catholic boards receive far in excess of what is designated to them through property taxes as that amount is not nearly enough to support them. The fact of the matter is they are publicly funded school boards and should be held to the same rules. Even better would be disbanding them as running two full public boards in the cities is incredibly wasteful.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  93. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Hollywood View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Catholic School Boards should be disbanded. Taxpayers are paying for their bigotry.
    In this case archaic religious rights should not override human rights.
    See, but you assume all those taxpayers are against that kind of bigotry. I know plenty who agree with that stance. Hence, why you can choose where your money goes from your property taxes when it comes to schools.

    Personally, I got no issues but assuming everyone is going to see things my way is just not reality.
    Right now you can choose from public or catholic education, that's it. What about being able to choose other religions? Either allow tax payers to choose any religion or leave the religious factor out. I personally believe governments should keep the religious factor out of the equation when it comes to taxes.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  94. #194
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    Faith no defence for hate and bigotry

    And before anybody says the Catholic system is funded by directed property taxes, it isn't. The check mark on your form does nothing in effect. All the money goes in a pot and the money follows the child – and only around 23 per cent of the education budget even comes from property taxes.
    And as far as legal costs go, the Alberta Catholic School Trustees Association – (the very same group that has a policy to not share infrastructure, resources or busing with public boards and children) has also had a levy on the head of every child in the Catholic system since 2009, collecting several dollars per child, per year and putting it in a legal fund (now worth many millions) to fight the public, with the money the public gave them in the first place.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong"

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Turnbull View Post
    Faith no defence for hate and bigotry

    And before anybody says the Catholic system is funded by directed property taxes, it isn't. The check mark on your form does nothing in effect. All the money goes in a pot and the money follows the child – and only around 23 per cent of the education budget even comes from property taxes.
    And as far as legal costs go, the Alberta Catholic School Trustees Association – (the very same group that has a policy to not share infrastructure, resources or busing with public boards and children) has also had a levy on the head of every child in the Catholic system since 2009, collecting several dollars per child, per year and putting it in a legal fund (now worth many millions) to fight the public, with the money the public gave them in the first place.
    I went to the city tax office and changed my education tax to 100% public support. Previously it was uncomitted.

  96. #196
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    Why should any institution rush to accommodate the 1%? Some fruit decides he feels like a girl and gets to go to the girls' washroom and that's OK? WWhat the hell is wrong with you? If I had a daughter and some freak did this, I would "educate" him real fast!

    Calling it now, one of these perverts is going to start snapping pics of girls in the washroom. We need to STOP this nonsense. Calling it now!
    Stop illegal aliens! Enforce the LAW!

  97. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Why should any institution rush to accommodate the 1%? Some fruit decides he feels like a girl and gets to go to the girls' washroom and that's OK? WWhat the hell is wrong with you? If I had a daughter and some freak did this, I would "educate" him real fast!

    Calling it now, one of these perverts is going to start snapping pics of girls in the washroom. We need to STOP this nonsense. Calling it now!
    Take your black and white sexual/gender misinformation and shove it.

    Read this thread on Reddit and learn a bit about how fluid gender and sexuality is among actual humans. Chances are people very close to you are probably nothing like you imagine them to be.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  98. #198
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    Ok but they are only 1%! Let them pay for their bathrooms in malls and schools if they want it!
    Stop illegal aliens! Enforce the LAW!

  99. #199

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    A small percentage of the population is blind, do we make them pay for braille on elevator buttons etc. A percentage of the population is disabled, do we make them pay for ramps and other enhancements to make it easier for them to get around. There are a lot of cases where we collectively pay for a minority issue. It's called 'being human'.
    Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    A small percentage of the population is blind, do we make them pay for braille on elevator buttons etc. A percentage of the population is disabled, do we make them pay for ramps and other enhancements to make it easier for them to get around. There are a lot of cases where we collectively pay for a minority issue. It's called 'being human'.
    dont start lopping in the blind. blind yes, they have no choice, tranny HELL NO THEY HAVE A CHOICE! I SHOULD HAVE MY RIGHTS and I should choose whether I want my $$$ to go to some tranny washroom.
    Stop illegal aliens! Enforce the LAW!

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