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Thread: Transgender accomodation in our schools

  1. #201

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    ^Oh Boy, I'm not even going to try to explain.
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  2. #202
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    I am sick of all these people crying over their supposed rights and acting all arrogant. They want me to be them. Why cant I be me? Where are my rights? If it so bad in this country, get out and go somewhere else, you are FREE to do so. A prefect example is that attention seeker tranny named Marni Panas. He gets all bend out of shape when HE gets called SIR! Its my right to call HIM WHATEVER I WANT AND HE IS A GENETIC MALE. If HE cant handle it, that is HIS problem! It really seems like they want equal rights but they also want speical rights. It seems like they do not want to live in harmony with others, they want to force their agenda on everyone. This is why TRUMP will win, people are feed up with things like Obama's apology tour. Stuff happened in the past, the strong eat the weak, move on and stop crying.

    Remember, it was offensive ONLY after some liberal said so!

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    Last edited by Cardinal Fang; 05-09-2016 at 01:35 PM.
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  3. #203

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    ^A persons true sexuality lies between the ears and not between the legs. If you are against using the male washroom incase a transgender person is in there feel free to carry a bottle or a baby potty around with you.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Why should any institution rush to accommodate the 1%? Some fruit decides he feels like a girl and gets to go to the girls' washroom and that's OK? WWhat the hell is wrong with you? If I had a daughter and some freak did this, I would "educate" him real fast!

    Calling it now, one of these perverts is going to start snapping pics of girls in the washroom. We need to STOP this nonsense. Calling it now!
    Take your black and white sexual/gender misinformation and shove it.

    Read this thread on Reddit and learn a bit about how fluid gender and sexuality is among actual humans. Chances are people very close to you are probably nothing like you imagine them to be.
    Not that I have a horse in this race but citing a reddit thread to support a pov is odd at best. Next, citing a reddit thread that is worse, even then the typical reddit thread is just a disservice to anybody that happened to, against their better judgement, click on the link, finally the actual thread on reddit is so inane, and so lacking in any sensibly set out positions maybe you could help the reader by denoting the maybe one post in that cesspool of a thread that is even remotely helpful in clarifying anything.

    thanks
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  5. #205

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    ^I cited that thread because it was a day old and had hundreds of responses from people of all sexual types openly discussing how they came to the realization that their preferences varied from what the false idea of what normal is. Nobody chooses their sexuality, gender, or preferences. They are simply there or form over time, like any other behavior, and it's nobody's business either way.

    I'm not sure what Cardinal Fang is afraid of. It seems in many cases people like him lash out because they have curiosities but were raised on some old world belief that they aren't allowed to explore and find happiness. If he's afraid of people cross-dressing to look at kids, the people that would be willing to do that would already be doing it. In case anyone hasn't noticed, pedophiles risk a lifetime of imprisonment and societal hatred to satisfy their urges. Tolerance of trans people doesn't change that. Trans people are not pedophiles. Some pedophiles may be trans, but it's because they're pedophiles, not because they're trans.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  6. #206

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    ^Thanks. I'm not up on the more recent gender classifications at all and a lot of this is news to me. tbh I get confused about the facebook type classifications as well. For instance starting with the distinction between born gender, and gender identification some of where I get lost is that some of the "gender qualities" are classified as masculine or feminine which seems from the outset objectified and type cast to me. I don't tend to think of the world or interests in that way. I don't classify interests in that way. I think its silly to do so.

    It seems odd that in order to comprehend such distinctions one must first be socialized to accept gender stereotyping in the first place. Does anybody else get confused with this apparent double standard?

    Its all odd and disjointed to me. tbh I start reading these classifications and a lot of it is noise. I'm not getting properly tuned in, not comprehending. For instance I could read pages and not understand the difference between bi, and gender fluid.

    To me its as if the gender classification system has been made by individuals with a predilection for stereotyping rather than just treating individuals as you know, individuals. We're all different, ultimately the classifications are endless and facebook is proving that. So lets move beyond typecasting anyway. Or have it be finite to workable somewhat easily understood terms.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  7. #207

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    Gender Classification as something different than sex is meaningless. The idea that someone is really a different gender on the inside is something of a logical fallacy, because gender as separate from sex isn't really a thing. The labels and the trappings are all manufactured culture. It's not true that all girls play with dolls, and it certainly not true that boy who do "girl things" are actually girls, or that girls who do "boy things" are actually girls.

    There is no such thing as feeling like a boy, or a girl, or a man or a woman. There is only feeling like who you are, in the situation that you are in.
    There can only be one.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Gender Classification as something different than sex is meaningless. The idea that someone is really a different gender on the inside is something of a logical fallacy, because gender as separate from sex isn't really a thing. The labels and the trappings are all manufactured culture. It's not true that all girls play with dolls, and it certainly not true that boy who do "girl things" are actually girls, or that girls who do "boy things" are actually girls.

    There is no such thing as feeling like a boy, or a girl, or a man or a woman. There is only feeling like who you are, in the situation that you are in.
    That first sentence is not true. Our language is full of gender pronouns, we have gender stereotypes (even if false), gendered washrooms, etc. You can't just 'erase' gender, and declare that people are just who they are. That's like saying, ignore race, it's not important.

    Those simply aren't solutions that work. Those aren't solutions that people who express as genders different than they were assigned at birth are asking for.

  9. #209

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    I like the idea that my daughter can go in a washroom, and do her hair, and chat to other girls / women, put on makeup, smoke (assuming there are no smoke detectors), that sort of stuff, without having to worry about boys running around. I don't understand why the PC crowd are trying to eliminate gender. In my view, its one of the most beautiful things, that we aren't all the same, and have different body types. I personally think use of mens and womens washrooms should be based on those physical difference's, its very simple - Penis = Mens, Vagina = Womens (which also has practical advantages, some airlines for example are introducing exclusive mens washrooms because can be made smaller with just a urinal). And, some neutral washrooms provided for people who aren't comfortable with that.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 10:03 AM.

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    You can't just 'erase' gender, and declare that people are just who they are.
    You need to look at Japan for the last decade.

    And we SHOULD dismantle gender. Gender is something largely made up. It's old and, as we're finding out rapidly, out of date.

    Here's a meme I quite enjoy that summarizes the stupidity of gender:


    Feel free to apply the same logic to clothing, jobs, music, makeup, art, bicycles, colours, or any other thing ever.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  11. #211

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    Until just a few years ago pretty much everyone understood gender to be synonymous with sex, sex being the glassification of the bits between an individuals legs. That's a real thing. It's not like ignoring race,

    "Expressing a gender different than they were assigned at birth" is an imaginary* thing. That's like ignoring race. No, not ignoring. Perverting the meaning so that it means nothing.

    I can't claim to be oriental just because I prefer chinese food over the root vegetables, cabbage and pickled fish that's been culturally packaged with the northern european racial heritage.

    I'm still white.
    There can only be one.

  12. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Gender is something largely made up.
    Physical differences aren't made up though, my daughter can't use a urinal, and I don't need tampons. Why do we have PC out everything from life? Its crap that we can't accept and celebrate differences without worrying that some people are too stupidly sensitive emotionally to accept those differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    You can't just 'erase' gender, and declare that people are just who they are.
    You need to look at Japan for the last decade.

    And we SHOULD dismantle gender. Gender is something largely made up. It's old and, as we're finding out rapidly, out of date.

    Here's a meme I quite enjoy that summarizes the stupidity of gender:


    Feel free to apply the same logic to clothing, jobs, music, makeup, art, bicycles, colours, or any other thing ever.
    I'm all with you on that graphic. Objects are not gendered.

    But people can choose to be. We shouldn't remove that choice from them. Not looking for the absence of gender in a person, just respect for the gender a person chooses to identify as.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I like the idea that my daughter can go in a washroom, and do her hair, and chat to other girls / women, put on makeup, smoke (assuming there are no smoke detectors), that sort of stuff, without having to worry about boys running around. I don't understand why the PC crowd are trying to eliminate gender. In my view, its one of the most beautiful things, that we aren't all the same, and have different body types. I personally think use of mens and womens washrooms should be based on those physical difference's, its very simple - Penis = Mens, Vagina = Womens (which also has practical advantages, some airlines for example are introducing exclusive mens washrooms because can be made smaller with just a urinal). And, some neutral washrooms provided for people who aren't comfortable with that.
    Why aren't you comfortable with your daughter around boys? What is it that you're worried about?

    The 'PC' crowd isn't trying to eliminate gender.

    You're bathroom thoughts are very out of date. What about transgender women who still have a penis? Where do you want them to go? Or vice versa? Why do we care what gender people are in the washroom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Until just a few years ago pretty much everyone understood gender to be synonymous with sex, sex being the glassification of the bits between an individuals legs. That's a real thing. It's not like ignoring race,

    "Expressing a gender different than they were assigned at birth" is an imaginary* thing. That's like ignoring race. No, not ignoring. Perverting the meaning so that it means nothing.

    I can't claim to be oriental just because I prefer chinese food over the root vegetables, cabbage and pickled fish that's been culturally packaged with the northern european racial heritage.

    I'm still white.
    So because until just a few years ago pretty much everyone thought things were different, we aren't allowed to learn more and have our outdated ideas challenged?

  16. #216

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    ^I'm not worried about anything, I'll be happy if she grows up happy, whatever her sexual orientation ends up being. I just think there are some fun things in life, she is going to miss out on, if we remove women's washrooms, because like it or not, boys are different and will make fun of girls putting on makeup or doing hair or similar, and will get annoyed at her hogging the washbasin or mirror. Why are you worried about physical sexual differences resulting in different build requirements? As to transgender women, why do you think they aren't happy to use a neutral washroom? Why does everyone else has to change because of them (a tiny fraction of a percent of the population) - especially given they themselves are often trying to make a change to fit in with one sex or the other that they want to identify more closely with? PC theory is trying to make us all sexless neuters, I think that's a shame, and I don't think its what transgender people want either, just book worm elites.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 10:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^I'm not worried about anything, I just think there are some fun things in life, she is going to miss out on, if we remove women's washrooms. Why are you worried about sexual differences resulting in different build requirements? As to transgender women, why do you think they aren't happy to use a neutral washroom? Why does everyone else has to change because of them? PC theory is trying to make us all sexless neuters, I think that's a shame.
    No seriously, what fun things is she going to miss out on if we remove womens washrooms?

    I'm not sure I understand clearly enough of the rest of your post to reply to it. Can you clarify what you mean?

  18. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Gender is something largely made up.
    Physical differences aren't made up though, my daughter can't use a urinal, and I don't need tampons. Why do we have PC out everything from life? Its crap that we can't accept and celebrate differences without worrying that some people are too stupidly sensitive emotionally to accept those differences.
    Good points, we aren't a melting pot society. (And I don't think multiculturalism works long term either. The melting pot fails because you can't melt away all differences. Societies have to recognize spectrums exist and people can't sit anywhere along those spectrums - they exist in the transitions between the generally identifiable and "labelled" groupings. Moreover, multiculturalism fails too as society can't encourage segregation and maintenance of foreign, imported of cultures with no formation or melting together of a common core of conditions and beliefs, without creating competing, hostile mini-cultures seeking separation from or dominance of the broader society.)

    Why "celebrate" differences or similarities at all. They are what they are and by being indifferent to them we don't elevate or denigrate any characteristic. That's why I think gay parades will, and should, disappear. Think eye or hair colour/color. We rarely differentiate among people based on their eye colour. No need to hold parades to push a blue or brown eyed agenda. Blue eyed people aren't relegated to the back of the bus. Brown eyed aren't required to go to brown eyed only bars or clubs.

    Or height, might be a better analogy on physical differences that exist, get accommodated for but don't get PC treatment. Without any thought we've accommodated an increasingly taller population over the years without any debate. Doors are higher, ceilings are higher. Clothing comes in different sizes. Car seats move to adjust for tall or short.
    Last edited by KC; 06-09-2016 at 10:30 AM.

  19. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No seriously, what fun things is she going to miss out on if we remove womens washrooms?

    I'm not sure I understand clearly enough of the rest of your post to reply to it. Can you clarify what you mean?
    Putting on make up, brushing hair with other girls / women where they can discuss what they are wearing / doing. Tell a ten year old boy to wait politely for a little girl to stop doing that, let along a 40 year old man - it just won't happen. Its exactly the sort of gender activity a lot of transgender people would like to participate in, they will never be able to if everything in society it neutered to your sexless ideal though. I find it interesting that the people pushing the idea of no womens / girls washrooms on here are men, I wonder how many women would happy to see them eliminated altogether?
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 10:28 AM.

  20. #220

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    So because until just a few years ago pretty much everyone thought things were different, we aren't allowed to learn more and have our outdated ideas challenged?
    No, but we should actually think about things. Like whether a "transgender woman who still has a penis" might actually be a "man". Like whether these new policies might be encouraging gender confusion and creating more problems than they solve. Like whether it makes any sense to assume that that conformance, or not, with transient cultural patterns should override physical biology when it comes to designs and pronouns that developed as ways to recognize the biological differences.
    There can only be one.

  21. #221

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    I like highlanders analogy on race when talking about this.. We can't change our race because we like Chinese food. We aren't Italian just because we prefer Italian food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No seriously, what fun things is she going to miss out on if we remove womens washrooms?

    I'm not sure I understand clearly enough of the rest of your post to reply to it. Can you clarify what you mean?
    Putting on make up, brushing hair with other girls / women. Tell a ten year old boy to wait politely for a little girl to stop doing that - it just won't happen.
    Sorry I replied before your edit which expanded what you had to say.

    New school builds have the sinks outside of the area where the stalls are already. The sinks are universal to everyone (because that saves room, like your airline example...)

    But regardless of that, you're now saying that no boys enjoy wearing makeup, doing their hair or spending time talking? Or that there are other girls that won't politely wait for another girl to 'stop doing that'?

    You're making giant assumptions about people here. Basically just trying to have gender stereotypes reinforced. How is that helpful?

    As to the rest of your previous posts, there are very few 'gender neutral' washrooms for anyone to use. Most washrooms are gendered. Are you advocating we build three sets of bathrooms? And how do you know someone is transgender? Who's checking? Why is this an issue?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    So because until just a few years ago pretty much everyone thought things were different, we aren't allowed to learn more and have our outdated ideas challenged?
    No, but we should actually think about things. Like whether a "transgender woman who still has a penis" might actually be a "man". Like whether these new policies might be encouraging gender confusion and creating more problems than they solve. Like whether it makes any sense to assume that that conformance, or not, with transient cultural patterns should override physical biology when it comes to designs and pronouns that developed as ways to recognize the biological differences.
    People have thought about these things. You seem to think we shouldn't bother thinking about them and leave them as they've always been.

    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.

  24. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing
    But regardless of that, you're now saying that no boys enjoy wearing makeup, doing their hair or spending time talking? Or that there are other girls that won't politely wait for another girl to 'stop doing that'?

    You're making giant assumptions about people here. Basically just trying to have gender stereotypes reinforced. How is that helpful?
    Because you are making the giant assumption that men and women should behave with exactly the same gender norms, and you are making the giant assumption that transgender people don't actually like those gender sterotypes. I have only known two or three transgender people (one undergoing surgical transformation, two not, from men to women), but all of them liked those gender activities, putting on makeup, brushing hair, wanting to gossip like a woman / being part of the girl talk. If we decide to de-sex everything its going to make life duller not richer for all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    I like highlanders analogy on race when talking about this.. We can't change our race because we like Chinese food. We aren't Italian just because we prefer Italian food.
    It's a terrible analogy. Race is related to your ancestral heritage. Not something 'assigned to you at birth' by a doctor.

    You're gonna say, 'but your gender is the same as your physical anatomy'. (And ignore intersex people, for example)

    But gender is not equal to your genitals.

  26. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No seriously, what fun things is she going to miss out on if we remove womens washrooms?

    I'm not sure I understand clearly enough of the rest of your post to reply to it. Can you clarify what you mean?
    Putting on make up, brushing hair with other girls / women where they can discuss what they are wearing / doing. Tell a ten year old boy to wait politely for a little girl to stop doing that, let along a 40 year old man - it just won't happen. Its exactly the sort of gender activity a lot of transgender people would like to participate in, they will never be able to if everything in society it neutered to your sexless ideal though. I find it interesting that the people pushing the idea of no womens / girls washrooms on here are men, I wonder how many women would happy to see them eliminated altogether?
    Most excellent points/insights. In a bar, girls exit the common areas together to go to the washroom to discuss plans, views, safety issues, etc. It's a practical as well as a cultural activity if you see each sex as having a culture.

    Still, I think the solution is washrooms that are like store change rooms. Everyone gets their own cubical. Boys get taught how to pee without peering on the seat. As for the washbasin area to retain gender identification, I don't have a solution.

  27. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.
    No, they do it because the identify with one gender more strongly than the other, and want to be more closely associated / involved in that gender - they like the gender roles we have today, they just feel they were born in the wrong body, which is limiting their ability to identify as closely with those roles as they want to. It would be a bit sad in your utopian sexless society if there was nothing to change to that made you feel welcome, because we had de-sexed society into a masculine banality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing
    But regardless of that, you're now saying that no boys enjoy wearing makeup, doing their hair or spending time talking? Or that there are other girls that won't politely wait for another girl to 'stop doing that'?

    You're making giant assumptions about people here. Basically just trying to have gender stereotypes reinforced. How is that helpful?
    Because you are making the giant assumption that men and women should behave with exactly the same gender norms, and you are making the giant assumption that transgender people don't actually like those gender sterotypes. I have only known two or three transgender people (one undergoing surgical transformation, two not, from men to women), but all of them liked those gender activities, putting on makeup, brushing hair, wanting to gossip like a woman / being part of the girl talk. If we decide to de-sex everything its going to make life duller not richer for all of us.
    I'm not asking to remove gender expression. Just remove gender stereotypes. You're mixing those up.

    People can behave as they want, regardless of their genitalia.

    Putting on makeup is not a 'womens' thing. It is a thing. People enjoy or don't. Regardless of gender. Some people do it because they like to appear more feminine (which is a thing! gender expression) but not all people want to look feminine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.
    No, they do it because the identify with one gender more strongly than the other, and want to be more closely associated / involved in that gender - they like the gender roles we have today, they just feel they were born in the wrong body, which is limiting their ability to identify as closely with those roles as they want to. It would be a bit sad in your utopian sexless society if there was nothing to change to that made you feel welcome, because we had de-sexed society into a masculine banality.
    My Utopian society isn't sexless. I've not once said this.

  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    I like highlanders analogy on race when talking about this.. We can't change our race because we like Chinese food. We aren't Italian just because we prefer Italian food.
    It's a terrible analogy. Race is related to your ancestral heritage. Not something 'assigned to you at birth' by a doctor.

    You're gonna say, 'but your gender is the same as your physical anatomy'. (And ignore intersex people, for example)

    But gender is not equal to your genitals.
    Start looking up the history and definitions of the word "race". It's quite surprising how broad and inconsistent it is and it's understanding very ethnocentric. Eating Italian food and speaking Italian and adopting Italian culture, essentially can make you Italian, and so of a different race in the eyes of people of another 'race'.

    Obama is also a good example. His ancestry would be 50% European, 50% African. Yet in a world only able to provide, or see, a singular label, guess what.

    Statisticians have been among the worst offenders of creating, if not demanding biased judgements. Though the "normal" curve encompasses all abnormalities, statisticians demand that 50/50 relationships instead become 100% relationships in their surveys.
    Last edited by KC; 06-09-2016 at 10:51 AM.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gwill211 View Post
    I like highlanders analogy on race when talking about this.. We can't change our race because we like Chinese food. We aren't Italian just because we prefer Italian food.
    It's a terrible analogy. Race is related to your ancestral heritage. Not something 'assigned to you at birth' by a doctor.

    You're gonna say, 'but your gender is the same as your physical anatomy'. (And ignore intersex people, for example)

    But gender is not equal to your genitals.
    Start looking up the history and definitions of the word "race". It's quite surprising how broad and inconsistent it is and it's understanding very ethnocentric.
    That's fair and I do wish I hadn't brought race into this. Let's put that analogy to the side, as that's a different can of worms.

  32. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post

    People have thought about these things. You seem to think we shouldn't bother thinking about them and leave them as they've always been.

    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.
    Group-think does not equal real thought. I think we can all guess what the conclusion of the university department of sexual minority studies was.

    Yes, they have real issues. Mostly issues that surgery won't fix.
    There can only be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Group-think does not equal real thought..
    Exactly. Now we're on the same page.

  34. #234

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    When it comes to race someone 2000 years ago had to call themselves something... weather its chinese, italian, german. Just like gender was thousands of years ago.. we can't say gender is assigned to you at birth by a dr so its okay to change this but our race is different. Whats next someone who's brown or black claiming their white just because they don't accept what the Dr says the color of their skin is?

  35. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Group-think does not equal real thought..
    Exactly. Now we're on the same page.
    Unfortunately, we can't escape group think and so, it is a necessary part of real thinking. We can't walk in the shoes of others, we can't get all the direct opinions of others. We can only rely on our direct experiences and our selective attention to various, but near universally "massaged" media inputs sometimes not even based on interviews of others.

    My favorite example came from a realization about the question: is the cup half empty, or half full? If you get asked that, you're already fighting bias, blindness and ignorance before you even get a chance to exercise real thought. Life doesn't present clean slates to begin thinking fresh about, but instead highly biased positions right from the outset.
    Last edited by KC; 06-09-2016 at 11:01 AM.

  36. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    So because until just a few years ago pretty much everyone thought things were different, we aren't allowed to learn more and have our outdated ideas challenged?
    No, but we should actually think about things. Like whether a "transgender woman who still has a penis" might actually be a "man". Like whether these new policies might be encouraging gender confusion and creating more problems than they solve. Like whether it makes any sense to assume that that conformance, or not, with transient cultural patterns should override physical biology when it comes to designs and pronouns that developed as ways to recognize the biological differences.

    Confusion is a key word in your comment that we don't need to be encouraging. If i look back to my high school or back at the wife's high school we knew or met a lot of gay kids. Of those kids who thought they were gay id say more then half are now married to a woman and have kids.

  37. #237

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    Many of you are grossly confusing gender, sex, and sexual orientation. Gender is the outdated mentality that boys like blue, trucks, and want to be firefighters, and girls like pink, horses, and want to be princesses. Sex is the biological genital you have - penis, vagina, etc. Sexual orientation is what you are sexually attracted to, whether it be penis, vagina, Pikachu, photos of planets, whatever.

    Gender is now an expression of your person. You can like jacked up trucks, wearing dresses, have a penis, and like vaginas, but only when attached to a masculine male form. Confusing? Not really. It's whatever you want to be.

    Sex is static. You have male genitals, female genitals, or no genitals. If your brain says you should have a penis but biologically you were born with a vagina due to a genetic flaw (yes, it's a disease), we now have the ability to fix that, which is absolutely incredible.

    Sexual orientation is some mixture of genetics and environment. I didn't choose to get excited about the female form or vaginas. Someone else didn't choose to find vaginas disgusting but be oddly aroused by highly stacked boxes. However that's reality. Something triggers that makes it that way. Even within "normal" straight sexual orientations there is insane variation. Some guys love vaginas but only get aroused by skinny or big partners, or partners that are tied up. Some women only get aroused if the guy is inflicting pain. What turns people on varies greatly, and that's totally fine. It's none of anyone's business but their own. Of course, hurting others without their consent (rape, abusing children, etc.) does not give anyone with a certain orientation a pass to find fulfillment.

    Trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems is a form of extremism, and stomping your feet while proclaiming that there's two genders with corresponding sex and sexual orientation is pathetically simplistic and completely removed from reality.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Sexual orientation is what you are sexually attracted to, whether it be penis, vagina, Pikachu, photos of planets, whatever.



    Yeah, funny you should mention that chmilz.

    Top_Dawg heard that for example da boyz down at Evolution typically harbour a very strong affinity for Uranus.

  39. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    [
    People have thought about these things. You seem to think we shouldn't bother thinking about them and leave them as they've always been.

    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.
    In a half baked way. The Facebook nonsense is exhibit A for what idiocy this is. By term #70 denoting gender I don't know whether Facebook is trying to accommodate or trying to ridicule the whole thing. By 70 terms it isn't about identification as much as permutation.

    Next, these have not been societal responses these have been select initiatives driven by very select interests. So that the vast majority of people are now presumably called "cisgender" when the plurality wasn't even consulted on the term, debate, etc. I could say that I have sexual values, orientation, that is consistent with what I have in my pants and that I am normative in this respect but you'd fly into another witch hunt calling me sexist. No, instead I should be labelled cisgender because its important to label everybody with some misappropriating term that sounds like a disease.

    Screw the objectifying classification. Nobody voted for this.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-09-2016 at 01:39 PM.
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  40. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Many of you are grossly confusing gender, sex, and sexual orientation. Gender is the outdated mentality that boys like blue, trucks, and want to be firefighters, and girls like pink, horses, and want to be princesses. Sex is the biological genital you have - penis, vagina, etc. Sexual orientation is what you are sexually attracted to, whether it be penis, vagina, Pikachu, photos of planets, whatever.

    Gender is now an expression of your person. You can like jacked up trucks, wearing dresses, have a penis, and like vaginas, but only when attached to a masculine male form. Confusing? Not really. It's whatever you want to be.

    Sex is static. You have male genitals, female genitals, or no genitals. If your brain says you should have a penis but biologically you were born with a vagina due to a genetic flaw (yes, it's a disease), we now have the ability to fix that, which is absolutely incredible.

    Sexual orientation is some mixture of genetics and environment. I didn't choose to get excited about the female form or vaginas. Someone else didn't choose to find vaginas disgusting but be oddly aroused by highly stacked boxes. However that's reality. Something triggers that makes it that way. Even within "normal" straight sexual orientations there is insane variation. Some guys love vaginas but only get aroused by skinny or big partners, or partners that are tied up. Some women only get aroused if the guy is inflicting pain. What turns people on varies greatly, and that's totally fine. It's none of anyone's business but their own. Of course, hurting others without their consent (rape, abusing children, etc.) does not give anyone with a certain orientation a pass to find fulfillment.

    Trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems is a form of extremism, and stomping your feet while proclaiming that there's two genders with corresponding sex and sexual orientation is pathetically simplistic and completely removed from reality.
    AS stated earlier I still don't get the description of Gender differentiation. That's objectified. Its based on outmoded concepts of play and identification. So how is it relevant. So many comments that Gender identification is different from actual gender but all the definitions I have read are nonsense.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  41. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Many of you are grossly confusing gender, sex, and sexual orientation. Gender is the outdated mentality that boys like blue, trucks, and want to be firefighters, and girls like pink, horses, and want to be princesses.
    You know, its easy to say this stuff, "its all society", "its all nurture not nature". Its simply not true, my daughter immediately wanted to wear pretty dresses, to do ballet. It didn't come from my ex-wife who was a "tom boy". Its what she likes, and I think its great. I think its great if someone who feels their sex doesn't match their gender, changes it to match. But what's the point if the PC crowd think gender is irrelevant, and hence, they won't be able to hang out with the girls in the girls washroom, or the boys in the boys? People need to become more accepting of gender differences, and more embracing of them, not less. It doesn't mean boys have to play with soldiers and girls have to play princess, and it shouldn't in anyway limit what people can do with their lives. But we shouldn't be ashamed that a lot of boys and girls are like that naturally (and there are biological reasons for that, the theory being boys and girls naturally separate when young so they can attract when older), and we shouldn't have to redesign our social norms and infrastructure to a neutered sexless / genderless utopia out of a Paul Verhoeven scifi movie because it offends some sensibilities.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 01:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Many of you are grossly confusing gender, sex, and sexual orientation. Gender is the outdated mentality that boys like blue, trucks, and want to be firefighters, and girls like pink, horses, and want to be princesses.
    You know, its easy to say this stuff, "its all society", "its all nurture not nature". Its simply not true, my daughter immediately wanted to wear pretty dresses, to do ballet. It didn't come from my ex-wife who was a "tom boy". Its what she likes, and I think its great. I think its great if someone who feels their sex doesn't match their gender, changes it to match. But what's the point if the PC crowd think gender is irrelevant, and hence, they won't be able to hang out with the girls in the girls washroom, or the boys in the boys? People need to become more accepting of gender differences, and more embracing of them, not less. It doesn't mean boys have to play with soldiers and girls have to play princess, and it shouldn't in anyway limit what people can do with their lives. But we shouldn't be ashamed that a lot of boys and girls are like that naturally (and there are biological reasons for that, the theory being boys and girls naturally separate when young so they can attract when older), and we shouldn't have to redesign our social norms and infrastructure to a neutered sexless / genderless utopia because it offends some sensibilities.
    I'll repeat, no one has said we need to ignore gender, that we want a genderless society. Where are you getting this?!

    Chmilz's is point is simply that because you're a boy, you don't have to like trucks, and because you're a girl, you don't have to like pink and dresses. That those things are not gender related.

    Your daughter liking ballet (which both genders do) and pretty dresses is fine. It'd be also fine if she liked wearing suits and any other sport or dance or whatever she wants to do.

  43. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Your daughter liking ballet (which both genders do) and pretty dresses is fine. It'd be also fine if she liked wearing suits and any other sport or dance or whatever she wants to do.
    And its fine if she wants to do her hair and makeup in a bar/nightclub/school girls/womens washroom with her friends with no boys / men around, I don't understand why anyone is trying to ban that. I guess you want to ban womens only gyms as well, no doubt they are discriminating against transgender people and boys / men.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 02:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    [
    People have thought about these things. You seem to think we shouldn't bother thinking about them and leave them as they've always been.

    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.
    In a half baked way. The Facebook nonsense is exhibit A for what idiocy this is. By term #70 denoting gender I don't know whether Facebook is trying to accommodate or trying to ridicule the whole thing. By 70 terms it isn't about identification as much as permutation.

    Next, these have not been societal responses these have been select initiatives driven by very select interests. So that the vast majority of people are now presumably called "cisgender" when the plurality wasn't even consulted on the term, debate, etc. I could say that I have sexual values, orientation, that is consistent with what I have in my pants and that I am normative in this respect but you'd fly into another witch hunt calling me sexist. No, instead I should be labelled cisgender because its important to label everybody with some misappropriating term that sounds like a disease.

    Screw the objectifying classification. Nobody voted for this.
    Are you suggesting you'd like to have the choice to classify yourself how you want to? Like the first part of your post argues against?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Your daughter liking ballet (which both genders do) and pretty dresses is fine. It'd be also fine if she liked wearing suits and any other sport or dance or whatever she wants to do.
    And its fine if she wants to do her hair and makeup in a bar/nightclub/school womens washroom with her friends with no boys / men around.
    As long as your accepting of transwomen in that womens washroom, we're not that far off.

  46. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    As long as your accepting of transwomen in that womens washroom, we're not that far off.
    I am, they can even have a penis, although I can also understand why it "might" be easier to "police" (although I doubt necessary) by applying a biological basis. I just don't like the idea mens and womens washrooms need to be eliminated / merged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    As long as your accepting of transwomen in that womens washroom, we're not that far off.
    I am, they can even have a penis, although I can also understand why it "might" be easier to "police" (although I doubt necessary) by applying a biological basis.

    Exackly.

    Top_Dawg is highly skeptical that most girls / women would want some cross dresser dude with a bad haircut, lipstick, a five o'clock shadow, and a dick hanging in front of him lurking around in the women's shitter.

  48. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    [
    People have thought about these things. You seem to think we shouldn't bother thinking about them and leave them as they've always been.

    No one undergoes hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery on a whim. They do it because they have real issues.
    In a half baked way. The Facebook nonsense is exhibit A for what idiocy this is. By term #70 denoting gender I don't know whether Facebook is trying to accommodate or trying to ridicule the whole thing. By 70 terms it isn't about identification as much as permutation.

    Next, these have not been societal responses these have been select initiatives driven by very select interests. So that the vast majority of people are now presumably called "cisgender" when the plurality wasn't even consulted on the term, debate, etc. I could say that I have sexual values, orientation, that is consistent with what I have in my pants and that I am normative in this respect but you'd fly into another witch hunt calling me sexist. No, instead I should be labelled cisgender because its important to label everybody with some misappropriating term that sounds like a disease.

    Screw the objectifying classification. Nobody voted for this.
    Are you suggesting you'd like to have the choice to classify yourself how you want to? Like the first part of your post argues against?
    Its a response to your assertion that "people have thought about these things" as if theres been some kind of sensible coherent dialog around these issues. Instead, as we know what has occurred is limited factions have co-opted the agenda and attempted to make all of the classification and coerce all the decision making. To the extent that people with normative sexual identification that matches their sex have been classified with misappropriating terms just because..

    I like to call it the co opted Cisagenda.

    AS a society there are untold costs of racing into these changes and accepting them all without knowing the longitudinal effects of such agenda. For instance how all present and future children are impacted in what is a developmental time period full of enough challenge an confusion.
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    I'm sorry, how are you being negatively being impacted by this? Is anyone actually calling you cisgender? Outside of a discussion like this. What is the impact to you?

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    just when i think we've come a long way, along comes a thread like this one.

    personal security and safety has nothing to do with the sign on a door and artificial segregation.

    what's the difference between an encounter in a washroom and an encounter in a hallway in front of the washroom?

    the way to provide personal security and safety has to do with the design of the spaces themselves - inside and outside the washrooms - not trying to predetermine who can pass through a particular door.

    my guess is that there is - and has been - much more abuse in segregated spaces than is likely to occur in non-segregated spaces and those using the kind of fearmongering of that shown here as an excuse to keep living in the dark ages simply demonstrates that they're still living in the dark ages. and that's no excuse for the rest of us or our children to keep living there with them.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  51. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    I'm sorry, how are you being negatively being impacted by this? Is anyone actually calling you cisgender? Outside of a discussion like this. What is the impact to you?
    Lets not be disingenuous. Normal has been coopted to the term cisgender, and with that labelling occurring due to select factions who, in their zeal to prevent labelling want to foist a label on normal. Just because. Apparently to even some score.


    Democratically speaking when select minority factions co-opt agendas to such an extent and which impact the liberties, rights, expression of all, we all suffer. With the sum extent of that suffering not known yet. The chief impact, right now, is societal cost, confusion, anomie, freedom of expression, freedom of child rearing, potential at risk consequences etc.


    I find it to be a fascinating sociological experiment and demonstration of how far select lobby can go in establishing their rights while being inconsiderate of any other rights.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    ^^

    Oh really enlightened one ?

    Top_Dawg would like to get girl's / women's opinions on how comfortable they would be from a safety perspective with dudes accessing the same washroom as them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    ...

    AS a society there are untold costs of racing into these changes and accepting them all without knowing the longitudinal effects of such agenda. For instance how all present and future children are impacted in what is a developmental time period full of enough challenge an confusion.
    unless you happen to know how all present and future children are impacted by the status quo in what is a developmental time period full of enough challenge and confusion, doesn't your statement speak at least as much for the proposed changes as the status quo?

    we know for a fact there are substantial negative impacts imposed on many children today by the status quo and there is no evidence that the proposed changes will not in fact reduce the proportion and the degree of those negative impacts overall and plenty of evidence that the reverse is true - that these impacts will be reduced. unless your position is one of faith or belief and not fact, one would think that based on your argument you should be in favour of the proposed changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    I'm sorry, how are you being negatively being impacted by this? Is anyone actually calling you cisgender? Outside of a discussion like this. What is the impact to you?
    Lets not be disingenuous. Normal has been coopted to the term cisgender, and with that labelling occurring due to select factions who, in their zeal to prevent labelling want to foist a label on normal. Just because. Apparently to even some score.


    Democratically speaking when select minority factions co-opt agendas to such an extent and which impact the liberties, rights, expression of all, we all suffer. With the sum extent of that suffering not known yet. The chief impact, right now, is societal cost, confusion, anomie, freedom of expression, freedom of child rearing, potential at risk consequences etc.


    I find it to be a fascinating sociological experiment and demonstration of how far select lobby can go in establishing their rights while being inconsiderate of any other rights.
    Wait, you think you deserve the term 'normal'. That's where this is coming from? So anyone that isn't the gender and sex they were assigned at birth, and isn't heterosexual is 'abnormal'.

    I'm still not sure how a term, 'cisgender', which few people use outside of the context of discussing transgender people, is negatively impacting you. Because in zero ways has it impacted your liberties, rights or expression.

  55. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Exackly.

    Top_Dawg is highly skeptical that most girls / women would want some cross dresser dude with a bad haircut, lipstick, a five o'clock shadow, and a dick hanging in front of him lurking around in the women's shitter.
    I have seen some pretty gross stuff over the years in mens washrooms, you raise a valid point, and its linked to my point of women / girls wanting their own space. Heck, even I like my own space at work for my business, I like that when I go into the washroom I don't have to panic that an undone belt buckle or similar will get me charged with sexual harrasment when I come out of a stall / walk from the urinal. I even like the urinal chat with the fellow next to me (and to date, its always been a fellow, for obvious reasons).
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 02:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Wait, you think you deserve the term 'normal'. That's where this is coming from? So anyone that isn't the gender and sex they were assigned at birth, and isn't heterosexual is 'abnormal'.

    Looks to Top_Dawg that you may be starting to get it Channing.

    Albeit maybe by accident.

  57. #257

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    @kcantor

    Whats the difference? When legislation occurs to create greater, and as yet not fully understood grey areas it creates untold not fully understood grey areas. As we navigate this odd sentence consider the following expected story, consequence, and what to do about it.


    http://www.king5.com/news/local/seat...-rule/65533111

    Now consider, if that man, like in so many other instances had nefarious and sexually gratifying reasons to be in that washroom or change room.


    Now consider that even if they don't that a female person using that change room consents to changing clothes among same sex peers. The action of being in mid change, nude, does not infer that that person consented to change in front of the opposite sex. If the latter was the case change rooms would not exist. People could just change clothes in the work out area. Apparently people are not so generally comfortable, overall, with that idea. (not saying me)

    Now consider what happens if a women that has been raped by a man sees a man changing in the womens room while she is undressed. Does this elicit anything. Fear, memory, screams?

    I just use this as illustration to hilite one of many major changes that result, and emanate from this. Which involve everybodies comfort level, privacy, and expectation.


    These issues are not as simple as they are made out to be.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-09-2016 at 02:55 PM.
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  58. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    I'm sorry, how are you being negatively being impacted by this? Is anyone actually calling you cisgender? Outside of a discussion like this. What is the impact to you?
    Lets not be disingenuous. Normal has been coopted to the term cisgender, and with that labelling occurring due to select factions who, in their zeal to prevent labelling want to foist a label on normal. Just because. Apparently to even some score.


    Democratically speaking when select minority factions co-opt agendas to such an extent and which impact the liberties, rights, expression of all, we all suffer. With the sum extent of that suffering not known yet. The chief impact, right now, is societal cost, confusion, anomie, freedom of expression, freedom of child rearing, potential at risk consequences etc.


    I find it to be a fascinating sociological experiment and demonstration of how far select lobby can go in establishing their rights while being inconsiderate of any other rights.
    Wait, you think you deserve the term 'normal'. That's where this is coming from? So anyone that isn't the gender and sex they were assigned at birth, and isn't heterosexual is 'abnormal'.

    I'm still not sure how a term, 'cisgender', which few people use outside of the context of discussing transgender people, is negatively impacting you. Because in zero ways has it impacted your liberties, rights or expression.
    haha, you're improving. It took you a full 3 responses this time before extracting your tired "your sexist" line of accusation. No, I haven't once stated anybody is abnormal. I was fishing to see how long it would take you to make that accusation. But yeah, I engage in normative expression of my sexuality that concurs with what I genetically have in my pants. Maybe a DSM classification of normal is required as well.....(sarcasm)

    Maybe you'll get that response, that human expressions considered normal usually don't have a classifying label attached. Therefore DSM doesn't tend to spend a lot of time classifying normal.

    To save words heres more on the topic which is reasonably well stated;

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nels...b_5598113.html

    So thus the term cisgender, as per the above discourse creates as much confusion, ambiguity, misinterpretation, as it is supposedly meant to avoid. In the end labelling is wrong. For all.

    I'll wait for your response.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-09-2016 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Whats the difference? When legislation occurs to create greater, and as yet not fully understood grey areas it creates untold not fully understood grey areas. As we navigate this odd sentence consider the following expected story, consequence, and what to do about it.


    http://www.king5.com/news/local/seat...-rule/65533111

    Now consider, if that man, like in so many other instances had nefarious and sexually gratifying reasons to be in that washroom or change room.


    Now consider that even if they don't that a female person using that change room consents to changing clothes among same sex peers. The action of being in mid change, nude, does not infer that that person consented to change in front of the opposite sex. If the latter was the case change rooms would not exist. People could just change clothes in the work out area. Apparently people are not so generally comfortable, overall, with that idea. (not saying me)

    Now consider what happens if a women that has been raped by a man sees a man changing in the womens room while she is undressed. Does this elicit anything. Fear, memory, screams?

    I just use this as illustration to hilite one of many major changes that result, and emanate from this. Which involve everybodies comfort level, privacy, and expectation.


    These issues are not as simple as they are made out to be.
    That whole argument ignores same-sex attraction.

    Not to mention numerous societies where nudity (like in change rooms, bath houses, etc) is not a big deal.

    If the issue is privacy while changing, provide private spaces for changing. A change room isn't, inherently, private. It's typically a gender specific space.

    So providing spaces that are not gender specific with, as an example, private changing spaces and shared showers, would reduce this issue. Such as planned spaces for new public outdoor pools in Edmonton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Whats the difference? When legislation occurs to create greater, and as yet not fully understood grey areas it creates untold not fully understood grey areas. As we navigate this odd sentence consider the following expected story, consequence, and what to do about it.


    http://www.king5.com/news/local/seat...-rule/65533111

    Now consider, if that man, like in so many other instances had nefarious and sexually gratifying reasons to be in that washroom or change room.


    Now consider that even if they don't that a female person using that change room consents to changing clothes among same sex peers. The action of being in mid change, nude, does not infer that that person consented to change in front of the opposite sex. If the latter was the case change rooms would not exist. People could just change clothes in the work out area. Apparently people are not so generally comfortable, overall, with that idea. (not saying me)

    Now consider what happens if a women that has been raped by a man sees a man changing in the womens room while she is undressed. Does this elicit anything. Fear, memory, screams?

    I just use this as illustration to hilite one of many major changes that result, and emanate from this. Which involve everybodies comfort level, privacy, and expectation.


    These issues are not as simple as they are made out to be.
    would the answer to that concern with everybody's comfort level, privacy and expectations not be to provide individual privacy for those activities that deserve it instead of depriving everyone of their privacy and relying on artificial segregation to provide some sense of security in its stead?

    it's no different than providing individual toilet stalls for privacy - even with that artificial segregation - and i don't see anyone advocating for their redundancy and removal.
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    ^^so we have to have private sinks now? Private mirrors? Why not wrap us all in bubble wrap and keep everything about us private all the time? That's the logical conclusion of your logic, because like it or not, sometimes I like to do up my belt or fly in front of the mirror. While your wife / daughter might not mind that, I don't think mine would like it., and I'm not super clean either (at least, all my ex girlfriends / wives never seemed happy with). PC madness to create a neutered utopia where you have to follow your daughter into the washroom at walmart because its filled with hairy men with their dicks out in front of the sink.
    Last edited by moahunter; 06-09-2016 at 03:07 PM.

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    tbh I've looked at that before and visually, the way that article is layed out I have trouble following the point counterpoint. I think somebody would have to be a regular reddit user or differentiate trees of discussion to see who is saying what in that mess. Visually its a lazy mess of print that reads worse than blockprint. You can give a readers digest version if you want.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^^so we have to have private sinks now? Private mirrors? Why not wrap us all in bubbles and keep us private all teh time? That's the logical conclusion of your logic, because like it or not, sometimes I like to do up my belt or fly in front of the mirror, and I'm not super clean either (at least, all my ex girlfriends / wives never seemed happy with). While your wife / daughter might not mind that, I don't think mine would like it. PC madness.
    Nope, shared sinks and mirrors. Those spaces become public spaces. Your stall is private. There are even 'family change room' stalls that are larger to accommodate that specific issue. (That's also not addressed by gender segregated facilities, young children having to go into bathrooms or change facilities of the opposite gender because of parental gender)

  65. #265

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    I had the opportunity to check out a Turkish bath in Hungary a couple weeks ago. First thing that I noticed when I walked in? One change room. I'm sure you can imagine the mass chaos, with all the various types of people simply unable to coexist in such a space. Oh, but in reality, people just changed or took a dump in the individual stalls provided (though many simply changed in the open because they're haven't been raised on shame and insecurity like us North Americans), then they did their makeup (boys and girls) or whatever they needed to do before entering or exiting the facility.

    It was refreshing. And nobody was harmed.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    tbh I've looked at that before and visually, the way that article is layed out I have trouble following the point counterpoint. I think somebody would have to be a regular reddit user or differentiate trees of discussion to see who is saying what in that mess. Visually its a lazy mess of print that reads worse than blockprint. You can give a readers digest version if you want.
    lol

  67. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    @kcantor

    ...

    These issues are not as simple as they are made out to be.
    i responded before your edits so here goes...

    yes, these "issues" are not as simple as they are sometimes made out to be.

    but it is your insistence on a "one size fits all" solution that is much closer to being "one size fits no-one" that is simplistic.

    what is being discussed here is the physical environment we choose to create and to offer equally to each other independent of complicating "issues" just as they are offered independent of race - another of those artificial segregations based on complicated issues that we are also still working to eliminate.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  68. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Whats the difference? When legislation occurs to create greater, and as yet not fully understood grey areas it creates untold not fully understood grey areas. As we navigate this odd sentence consider the following expected story, consequence, and what to do about it.


    http://www.king5.com/news/local/seat...-rule/65533111

    Now consider, if that man, like in so many other instances had nefarious and sexually gratifying reasons to be in that washroom or change room.


    Now consider that even if they don't that a female person using that change room consents to changing clothes among same sex peers. The action of being in mid change, nude, does not infer that that person consented to change in front of the opposite sex. If the latter was the case change rooms would not exist. People could just change clothes in the work out area. Apparently people are not so generally comfortable, overall, with that idea. (not saying me)

    Now consider what happens if a women that has been raped by a man sees a man changing in the womens room while she is undressed. Does this elicit anything. Fear, memory, screams?

    I just use this as illustration to hilite one of many major changes that result, and emanate from this. Which involve everybodies comfort level, privacy, and expectation.


    These issues are not as simple as they are made out to be.
    would the answer to that concern with everybody's comfort level, privacy and expectations not be to provide individual privacy for those activities that deserve it instead of depriving everyone of their privacy and relying on artificial segregation to provide some sense of security in its stead?

    it's no different than providing individual toilet stalls for privacy - even with that artificial segregation - and i don't see anyone advocating for their redundancy and removal.
    Ken, as this one example illustrates its that these legislated changes are having groundbreaking implications without even realizing what those costs and implications are. Plus that the legislation just expects everybody, and every facility to just get on with it without even so much as primary thought on what this brings. Fact of the matter is that in all jurisdictions adopting such legislated change facilities and their patrons have had to catch up. In the meanwhile those that are vulnerable, those that have not been properly consulted, the end users end up experiencing the ramifications without any prior consent granted.

    This is all half baked. As a society were expecting any club employee, any lifeguard, any young low paid employee to immediately figure out how to deduce, deal with this, salve all parties etc. Something even our highest courts haven't worked out. That summer lifeguard job just became a complicated nightmare with not right answers, no advised solutions, no adequately written policy. Overnight. That's just one illustrated consequence.

    Solutions should sometimes involve simplicity. Solutions should improve condition, order, not result in further extensive problems. But then I'm a pragmatist.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  69. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    @kcantor

    ...

    These issues are not as simple as they are made out to be.
    i responded before your edits so here goes...

    yes, these "issues" are not as simple as they are sometimes made out to be.

    but it is your insistence on a "one size fits all" solution that is much closer to being "one size fits no-one" that is simplistic.

    what is being discussed here is the physical environment we choose to create and to offer equally to each other independent of complicating "issues" just as they are offered independent of race - another of those artificial segregations based on complicated issues that we are also still working to eliminate.
    One size fits all is not an accurate reflection of that which I've stated. I will not respond to that strawman depiction. You've ceded the complexity of this issue. Fine. Perhaps you could further acknowledge how your entry into this thread was assumptive and dismissive given your concession that this is all more complicated.

    ftr when in rome (figuratively) I can change on a nude beach no problem and be nude. i'm not even uncomfortable about it and I adapt easily. So none of what I've written is about me. That said I'm fortunate enough to be a person that has not been sexually abused, molested, raped, and thus would not in a million years attempt to preclude how those individuals would be impacted by same as some might.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-09-2016 at 03:26 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  70. #270

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    What if a girl is raped by a woman? She still has to use the ladies room. We can't hold back society from progress because bad things have happened to people. Punish the bad people, not all of society.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  71. #271

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    Also, quick newsflash: it's mostly young women pushing for change and tolerance, while it's old men that are trying to hold us back. If anyone should be concerned about safety, it would be the young women. Which leads me to believe old men are simply scared of... something, but I'm not sure what.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  72. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    tbh I've looked at that before and visually, the way that article is layed out I have trouble following the point counterpoint. I think somebody would have to be a regular reddit user or differentiate trees of discussion to see who is saying what in that mess. Visually its a lazy mess of print that reads worse than blockprint. You can give a readers digest version if you want.
    lol
    All I see in the article is Parker Malloy browbeating her own derived strawman arguments. Its a poor piece in which the author is not even considering that which was written. A debate between the two would be more interesting.

    Indeed this comment, if you looked at it, blows up Parker Malloys acknowledged reactive rant (from your same citation);

    "Ravenna July 23, 2014 at 11:45 am


    I have to agree with “Unimpressed.” This reads more like a rant than anything else. Everywhere that the Huffpost author makes a potentially interesting point I don’t actually see any well thought out argument to the contrary, just name calling, typo call outs and other responses of this type. I don’t think this actually helps your cause, if anything it just turns off potentially open minds. I too, do not necessarily agree with the original article and was looking forward to reading a well thought out response- which is not what I found here. I am deeply saddened by what I perceive as a continuing rise in horizontal hostility amongst “us.” Infighting is in my opinion ultimately a disservice to the communities we inhabit. It may feel emotionally cathartic for a moment, and all the “**** yeah!” comments can feel validating, but that good feeling moment becomes overshadowed by the endless hard work of repairing the damage done to our relationships. If we want allies, and want to be allies to others in need I personally have found it best to step back from my immediate emotional reaction before I make public commentary. Not because my feeling aren’t valid, but because I am trying to build bridges between communities I find it best to do my venting with a small circle of trusted comrades, and then with the clarity I gain from lettin’ loose I can move forward with a larger discourse in a more potentially constructive manner. But, maybe your goal wasn’t to actually change any minds or build more effective coalitions, maybe you just wanted to dump regardless of the consequence. In which case, you met your goal."

    The comment left by "unimpressed" is even less kind but is astute enough. Parker Malloy unintendedly lampoons herself in that vitriolic piece.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-09-2016 at 03:46 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  73. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    What if a girl is raped by a woman? She still has to use the ladies room. We can't hold back society from progress because bad things have happened to people. Punish the bad people, not all of society.
    Fair comment, with the exception that rushing full speed into legislated changes without adaptive time to make those changes puts end results that run contrary to what people have consented to, as I have illustrated. So in essence people unintendedly being punished with occurrences that do not resemble prior consent.


    A responsible way to resolve the above example I cited would be for the club in question to have had the time to change their policy, premises, and funding in which to do that. Presumably putting up massive stalls in a changeroom(as some have suggested as a solution) is going to cost a lot of money. It is also going to be extremely inefficient, will take more space, and less people will be accommodated in the change room at any one time.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Also, quick newsflash: it's mostly young women pushing for change and tolerance, while it's old men that are trying to hold us back. If anyone should be concerned about safety, it would be the young women. Which leads me to believe old men are simply scared of... something, but I'm not sure what.

    Well maybe Top_Dawg missed something but to his recent recollection he has never heard or read of any instance where a woman, young or old, has advocated for gender neutral public washrooms.

    On the contrary, Top_Dawg suspects that for them, the very notion is quite disconcerting.

  75. #275

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    ^its sexist to call kids, "boys" and "girls" now as well it seems:

    Teachers at Carlos Rey Elementary School are in a tough situation after their assistant principal told them to stop calling their students “boys and girls.”

    It seems the school administrators decided to take the new transgender bathroom policy for Albuquerque Public Schools a step further. This appears to the first example of something that started as a bathroom issue now expanding into daily life in the classroom.

    A letter sent to teachers at Carlos Rey this month titled “Gender Identity Procedural Directive” states teachers can no longer refer to their students as boys and girls starting this month, telling them to eliminate gender in their classrooms.

    It incites a passionate reaction from both sides.

    “This is outlandish,” said Rev. Adelious D. Stith, a regular at APS board meetings. “This just makes no sense at all.”

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/teachers-...uKWV33WxVBy.99
    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/teachers-...uKWV33WxVBy.99

  76. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its sexist to call kids, "boys" and "girls" now as well it seems:

    Teachers at Carlos Rey Elementary School are in a tough situation after their assistant principal told them to stop calling their students “boys and girls.”

    It seems the school administrators decided to take the new transgender bathroom policy for Albuquerque Public Schools a step further. This appears to the first example of something that started as a bathroom issue now expanding into daily life in the classroom.

    A letter sent to teachers at Carlos Rey this month titled “Gender Identity Procedural Directive” states teachers can no longer refer to their students as boys and girls starting this month, telling them to eliminate gender in their classrooms.

    It incites a passionate reaction from both sides.

    “This is outlandish,” said Rev. Adelious D. Stith, a regular at APS board meetings. “This just makes no sense at all.”

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/teachers-...uKWV33WxVBy.99


    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/teachers-...uKWV33WxVBy.99
    Better bring out the big legislative yardstick and give the admins a good beating with it. Maybe call all them kids cisgenders...(sarcasm) Oh wait, kids is an offensive, non supportive term, and cisgender is a term the whole LBGTQ factions will be arguing about for decades on behalf of people who are none of the above..

    We live in a world of stupid.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-09-2016 at 04:14 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  77. #277
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    In the late 1970s, when I was in undergrad and living in residence at a university in Ontario, the washrooms in my part of the res were co-ed. I can't recall even feeling uncomfortable after the first couple of days. And that was showers, bathtubs, toilets and all. There were curtains that we pulled across, there were doors on the toilet stalls, there were plenty of sinks. It was no big deal. The students in the co-ed section were a decent lot (more than I can say for the all-male and all-female sections).

    And having done the high-school bathroom and locker room thing with the other girls, I think moahunter's view of what he wants for his daughter in public washrooms in school or whatever is a bit rosy. What I recall from high school washrooms was lots of catty bullying, shaming, and bitching. Also, when a girl or three are monopolizing all the sinks while they put their makeup on it's just as annoying for the other girls waiting to wash their hands or put their own makeup on as it would be for any guy.

  78. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Also, quick newsflash: it's mostly young women pushing for change and tolerance, while it's old men that are trying to hold us back. If anyone should be concerned about safety, it would be the young women. Which leads me to believe old men are simply scared of... something, but I'm not sure what.

    Well maybe Top_Dawg missed something but to his recent recollection he has never heard or read of any instance where a woman, young or old, has advocated for gender neutral public washrooms.

    On the contrary, Top_Dawg suspects that for them, the very notion is quite disconcerting.
    Top_Dawg doesn't roll with enough young pups then

    Almost every younger woman I know (let's say 18-40) is generally super OK with trans women, and trans women using the same washroom.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

  79. #279

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    lol... Its funny seeing the extremes here. There's no way in hell every woman I know between 18-40 is okay with this whole washroom debate. Some are, some don't care but even more have some sort of issue with it.

    Im just glad I can use the ladies washroom when I really need to go... No more waiting in line for me at the guys washroom anymore.

  80. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    ^its sexist to call kids, "boys" and "girls" now as well it seems:

    Teachers at Carlos Rey Elementary School are in a tough situation after their assistant principal told them to stop calling their students “boys and girls.”

    It seems the school administrators decided to take the new transgender bathroom policy for Albuquerque Public Schools a step further. This appears to the first example of something that started as a bathroom issue now expanding into daily life in the classroom.

    A letter sent to teachers at Carlos Rey this month titled “Gender Identity Procedural Directive” states teachers can no longer refer to their students as boys and girls starting this month, telling them to eliminate gender in their classrooms.

    It incites a passionate reaction from both sides.

    “This is outlandish,” said Rev. Adelious D. Stith, a regular at APS board meetings. “This just makes no sense at all.”

    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/teachers-...uKWV33WxVBy.99
    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/08/teachers-...uKWV33WxVBy.99
    We should all just call each other "its". Simple, works for most things in life. I don't need to be called male, boy, guy, dude, him, he, Mr., Sir, husband, or anything other than "you" and "it". Though those with multiple personalities might protest. Just sa; "Hey youse", to them.

  81. #281

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    Cripes, what is going on here.
    "The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read." –Mark Twain

  82. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    Cripes, what is going on here.
    The same thing that happened when it was first revealed the world was round and went around the sun.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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