Edmonton Central Park

[GizmoForMayor]

^ I largely agree. Outside of Stephen Avenue, I think Calgary's downtown is actually far more terrible than ours and lacks any serious potential. It's canyon-like for the most part with virtually no thought given to street level interaction. While it's true that Edmonton lacks a lot of pedestrian friendly areas at this point, I would argue that at least there is far more potential to get there in the future. All those ugly parking lots may actually end up working in Edmonton's favour, because at least there is still an opportunity to build buildings that add to the pedestrian experience, rather than take away from it. I would take Edmonton's downtown over Calgary's any day.

[noodle]

Record low in Copenhagen: -17.8C

Gee, I wonder why they might have a different approach & result to winter, given that their winters are nothing like ours, climate-wise.

[GenWhy?]

Factor in humidity?

[noodle]

No, because that's irrelevant given the massive scale of differences. Copenhagen's all-time-low is roughly equivalent to our average-nighttime-low this time of year. If we were comparing averages to averages that'd be one thing, but this is extremes to averages. In any given winter you're likely to experience multiple days in Edmonton colder than Copenhagen has EVER experienced in historical weather records.

Northern Europe's climate isn't really analogous to Western Canada.

[IanO]

Timely article.

Edmonton makes second attempt at child-friendly planning

ELISE STOLTE

Two new parks built and under construction in the downtown core will provide space for gardeners, outdoor coffee drinkers, even dog walkers.

But despite city council’s long-term push to attract more families downtown, the parks will not have play space for children. Even the public art selected for the new Alex Decoteau Park on 105 Street is adult oriented. It’s too tall to climb.

“It will be eye-catching, iconic … Playable wasn’t one of the criteria,” said Katherine Kerr of the Edmonton Arts Council, who hopes to sign a contract with the artist this week.

In Edmonton, it can seem like planners only think of children when they’re planning playgrounds. Downtown, space for kids just didn’t come up during the public open houses, say planners. But there’s a growing sense that more should be done — not just in parks but at farmers’ markets, in public squares and perhaps even transit centres.

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...endly-planning

[Bodmanza]

The idea that Edmonton has nice walkable areas downtown is hysterical to me. Have you people been to literally any other city in the damn world that isn't Detroit or Atlanta? Our downtown is relatively an awful space to walk around, and the weather is not an excuse. The number of prohibitively cold days we have in winter is vastly over exaggerated, and Copenhagen seems to manage just fine. Have you even been to Calgary...? Stephen avenue is amazing and unlike anything we have in Edmonton. Downtown Calgary is absolutely beautiful compared to ours and their climate is basically identical.

Having ventured back and forth many times between our Calgary and Edmonton office, I can tell you this is categorically wrong. Calgary's downtown is different with a different vibe for sure (not one I prefer, to be honest), but Stephen Ave is dead in the evenings (walked down it thrice in the last month) and to call it absolutely beautiful compared to ours is way off the mark.

[Leekiwwi]

I actually moved from Calgary to Edmonton about 7 years ago, so I'll chime in. I think Calgary's downtown is a lot nicer, but it's a different kind of nice perhaps. My favorite thing about Calgary's downtown is their +15 walkway and how you can connect from one end of downtown to the other without having to step foot outside. This may not appeal to everyone, but I certainly enjoyed it, especially when temperatures are above 30 or below 10.

[noodle]

Shhhh. Don't let Scott McKeen hear you say that. He views convenience & comfort as secondary to "vibrancy" and would prefer we all bundle up/strip down & wander around at street level.

[Top_Dawg]

Top_Dawg walks just about everywhere and from what he's seen Emmonton's evening vibe has barely changed in twenty-five years.

In fact, it's gotten worse - there is none.

Unless you classify vagrants and the homeless as vibe.

Sure there is a bit of activity on event night for that small window immediately before or after an event - but that's what ?

Half an hour ?

Case in point.

Last week, Top_Dawg can't remember if it was during the Arizona or Florida game, Top_Dawg trotted along 4th avenue in front of Rogers heading towards the Rose and Crown.

Had to be towards the end of the second period.

Would never be able to tell there was an event going on inside.

Top_Dawg spotted three people.

Bucket guy getting his drum set ready.

Some vagrant digging in a garbage can for empties.

And some gilt sitting in her EPS SUV looking bored out of her skull.

That's it.

After the game, three people with Oiler jerseys came into the Rose.

Top_Dawg wandered outside and there were lots of people streaming out of Rogers.

Not wanting to get caught up in the crowd, Top_Dawg popped into Pazzo Pazzo Lounge for a coupla beer.

Maybe forty minutes later he left.

This time walking on the south side of 3rd avenue towards Kelly's, streets were deserted again.

Only sound was bucket guy banging away somewhere to the north.

[GreenSPACE]

Update on land purchases at Urban Planning Committee February 15.

[Stevey_G]

Green do you have any idea how long a process the development of a project like this can take? I have south facing property in Monaco 2 and would love to see the change in scenery. Few years I presume?

God this will look great to passerbyers on the Valley Line. I really do hope it catalyzes the area too - possibly resurrect Healy at best.

[GreenSPACE]

^Right now there is only money to purchase the land. There is no money for planning the park let alone park development.

It will take some efforts on our part to get budget money in place for planning and consultation next step. If we want to see this park in less than 10 years. I'm sure developers, residents, etc would like to see it done in less time than that.

[Dave]

Green do you have any idea how long a process the development of a project like this can take? I have south facing property in Monaco 2 and would love to see the change in scenery. Few years I presume?

God this will look great to passerbyers on the Valley Line. I really do hope it catalyzes the area too - possibly resurrect Healy at best.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have seen I believe there actually will be buildings between most of the park and the Valley Line so they will see little, except for 1/2 a block on 105 St which the train will go by in a few seconds.

[IanO]

One step closer.

http://edmontonjournal.com/g00/news/...ots-into-parks

[Mla]

Is the central park going to get rid of the parking lot just west of Boston Pizza?

[JayBee]

Is the central park going to get rid of the parking lot just west of Boston Pizza?

I don't remember seeing anything really detailed, but according to this antique, it looks like the Park may not be intended to contact Jasper Avenue, so "maybe not"?

New Central Park as proposed in the Jasper Avenue New Vision Project

http://www.edmonton.ca/go_downtown/j...ew-vision.aspx

[Stevey_G]

Is the central park going to get rid of the parking lot just west of Boston Pizza?

The strip of lots along Jasper Ave are going to be incentivized to develop as a result of this park. My only wish is that lots 127 and 128 in Block 6 (Boston Pizza) could have been expropriated. My vision is a slightly diagonally positioned park with planned walkways leading from Jasper Ave to a newly completed and expanded Norquest College. It will require walkable connections for people from things such as LRT, bus stops, campuses, etc in order for this park to be activated in the middle of the dustbowl. And having a grand entrance off of Jasper instead of some Side street would be efficient planning.

The best answer for your question: all the lots directly west of Jasper will not be park space; but 107st will likely be removed in conjunction with LRT construction and all those lots between Fountain Tire and Doans will all be developed.

[GreenSPACE]

Developer predicts another Alberta boom by Globe and Mail, February 23, 2017

“By buying up some of the parking lots in the Warehouse District and turning it into a city park, the city’s driving up the value of the surrounding sites and making development of those sites more likely,” he continues. “A really exciting neighbourhood is going to emerge there in the coming years.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-...ticle34109117/

[Dave]

Developer predicts another Alberta boom by Globe and Mail, February 23, 2017

“By buying up some of the parking lots in the Warehouse District and turning it into a city park, the city’s driving up the value of the surrounding sites and making development of those sites more likely,” he continues. “A really exciting neighbourhood is going to emerge there in the coming years.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-...ticle34109117/

Oh, the optimism of condo developers!!! If he could bottle and sell optimism, he would be even richer.

I am not quite so sure if there will be another boom soon, but I do think he has reason to feel good about this project. It is in a good location that is being made even better by the addition of the park. The slow down in the economy seems to have stopped several other proposed projects in the area so I suppose that is less competition for him, which may help his sales as well. If oil prices continue to recover he may be one of the first projects going ahead.

I suppose building in Edmonton and Calgary now which are not pricey like Vancouver or Toronto can be an advantage and also helps diversify his business from those markets which have peaked or may be peaking.

[Stevey_G]

The owners have blocked access to one of the large lots facing 107st across the street from Doans. It has been devoid of vehicles for weeks and I wonder if the city is moving closer to procurement of these lots.

[IanO]

That's a bit odd...

[GreenSPACE]

Indeed.

[Stevey_G]

I'm speculating here, but the city may have came to an agreement with the lot owner and due to the nature of expropriation, perhaps they are not allowed to generate revenue themselves after procurement? It would make sense from a legal standpoint that the city not be allowed to create a revenue stream after.

[IanO]

That is potentially it, but seems a bit soon for those agreements to be crafted and signed.

[IanO]

https://globalnews.ca/news/3889880/d...n-near-future/

[H.L.]

Seeing a small child rolling around on asphalt yesterday, parks are really needed, not that many at the downtown function though.

[Vincent]

So I got another update on this park from Mary Ann Debrinski (cause I asked her for one).

Hi Vincent,

Yes, we are still on schedule for acquisition of the land for the Warehouse Campus Neighbourhood Central Park. We plan on requesting a budget to design and construct the park as part of the 2019-2022 Capital Budget. The capital budget will be presented to Council this fall and deliberated and approved in December. Work can start on design of the park once the capital budget is approved.

Just to be clear, the schedule is to finish acquiring all the land before the end of 2018.

[Stevey_G]

So I got another update on this park from Mary Ann Debrinski (cause I asked her for one).

Hi Vincent,

Yes, we are still on schedule for acquisition of the land for the Warehouse Campus Neighbourhood Central Park. We plan on requesting a budget to design and construct the park as part of the 2019-2022 Capital Budget. The capital budget will be presented to Council this fall and deliberated and approved in December. Work can start on design of the park once the capital budget is approved.

Just to be clear, the schedule is to finish acquiring all the land before the end of 2018.

I don’t want to lose my property view with something like this. Frig.

[GreenSPACE]

^How would you loose your view with a park?

[Vincent]

I don’t want to lose my property view with something like this. Frig.

What's your current view?

[Stevey_G]

I don’t want to lose my property view with something like this. Frig.

What's your current view?

Endless vehicles.

[Vincent]

Ya, you don't wanna lose that for a park. The horror.

[IanO]

My wish list for this grand park:

- playground
- large central fountain
- Small cafe facing south with patio
- A variety of blossom trees to add some colour to our early season
- multi-use fenced court - basketball, tennis, handball, street hockey, etc.
- outdoor fitness gym adjacent
- public art
- a heritage walk with images/vistas

[Stevey_G]

I want pathways, lunch-spaces, and a botanical theme for the summertime. I’d prefer rock beds over mulch as it stays much cleaner.

In the winter, I’d love to see a massive Christmas tree, and flooded skating area. Statues and stuff would be nice, but I would be okay with them phasing this development and building it as it ages and matures as to not give it a rushed and post modern feel.

[GenWhy?]

My wish list for this grand park:

- playground
- large central fountain
- Small cafe facing south with patio
- A variety of blossom trees to add some colour to our early season
- multi-use fenced court - basketball, tennis, handball, street hockey, etc.
- outdoor fitness gym adjacent
- public art
- a heritage walk with images/vistas

Permeable yet "activated" perifery. Promotes shortcutting.

[Vincent]

My wish list for this grand park:

- playground
- large central fountain
- Small cafe facing south with patio
- A variety of blossom trees to add some colour to our early season
- multi-use fenced court - basketball, tennis, handball, street hockey, etc.
- outdoor fitness gym adjacent
- public art
- a heritage walk with images/vistas

Love it.

[Stevey_G]

What I would love to see is something comparable to Luxembourg Gardens on a 2 hectare space. If you build that, you’ll get developers clamouring over the surrounding lots.

[kkozoriz]

The city can't keep strings of lights lit downtown as it is and you want to add something that looks likes this? Dream on.

[Stevey_G]

The city can't keep strings of lights lit downtown as it is and you want to add something that looks likes this? Dream on.

If you don’t like people on a message board brainstorming ideas why do you even come on here? Try harder to add to the conversation.

[kkozoriz]

Something with a few grassy areas and a fair bit of concrete paths is much more likely and much less maintenance required. Look at what happened with Churchill Square. Grass turned to mud as it became more popular. That was replaced with an odd brick/grass hybrid that didn't really work either. Ended up paving the whole thing.

Think Alex Decoteau Park with a bit more grass and more trees. Something like the Luxembourg Gardens would require a large dedicated staff or else it would begin to look like crap in no time.

You'd have to keep the festivals with the large numbers of people away from a park with a lot of grass or people would be calling for a solution.

If you go with something like this, then keep it as a grassy area and hope that people don't tromp through it when it rains or in the spring.

[Vincent]

Churchill square is a gathering place, not a park, so it's not a good comparison.

[Stevey_G]

Something with a few grassy areas and a fair bit of concrete paths is much more likely and much less maintenance required. Look at what happened with Churchill Square. Grass turned to mud as it became more popular. That was replaced with an odd brick/grass hybrid that didn't really work either. Ended up paving the whole thing.

Think Alex Decoteau Park with a bit more grass and more trees. Something like the Luxembourg Gardens would require a large dedicated staff or else it would begin to look like crap in no time.

You'd have to keep the festivals with the large numbers of people away from a park with a lot of grass or people would be calling for a solution.

If you go with something like this, then keep it as a grassy area and hope that people don't tromp through it when it rains or in the spring.

There’s certainly an simplistic elegance to that example. However I’m not overly concerned about the beating down of the grass as this is a large area which will have a strong root system if properly aerated and landscaped. I’d love to see a park that is sincerely winter friendly as we spend eight months of the year in perpetual darkness. The country boy in me loves the idea of a bonfire pit and pond hockey.

[kkozoriz]

If you start bringing in large numbers of people, the grass will get trampled and die. We need to decide what the park is going to be used for and design it appropriately. Start moving something like A Taste Of Edmonton there and the grass will be a mess afterwards.

If people want a park that functions as green space and not a stage for festivals and other large gatherings then grass would probably be fine.

If we want something for large gatherings, maybe a concert or something similar, then we could do a split with concrete or something similar with some grassy areas. But, if the crowds end up bigger than expected and the grass turns to mud, there will be calls to replace it, just like what happened with Churchill.

If you put in a lot of trees and shrubs that block sightlines then people won't feel safe there when it's lightly attended, such as in the evening and at night, then people will want the trees pulled out, similar to Beaver Hills.

[Stevey_G]

If you start bringing in large numbers of people, the grass will get trampled and die. We need to decide what the park is going to be used for and design it appropriately. Start moving something like A Taste Of Edmonton there and the grass will be a mess afterwards.

If people want a park that functions as green space and not a stage for festivals and other large gatherings then grass would probably be fine.

If we want something for large gatherings, maybe a concert or something similar, then we could do a split with concrete or something similar with some grassy areas. But, if the crowds end up bigger than expected and the grass turns to mud, there will be calls to replace it, just like what happened with Churchill.

If you put in a lot of trees and shrubs that block sightlines then people won't feel safe there when it's lightly attended, such as in the evening and at night, then people will want the trees pulled out, similar to Beaver Hills.

I identify this space similarly to what we see on the South Leg grounds, not necessarily a place to have concerts or festivals, but simply a place where people close to the core to walk their dogs and such. I’m definitely concerned about the amount of damage to turf that can be done by the seemingly limitless amount of dogs downtown pissing on it.

[GreenSPACE]

Love the last example. Agree with most of the points you've made kkozoriz.

[Mr.D]

Will the park be funded by the Community Revitalization Levy or will it be funded by the general capital budget? Would it be possible to partially fund it through a value capture mechanism from adjacent lots? I guess the CRL is a type of value capture mechanism but I wonder if something more specific to this area would be appropriate.

[GreenSPACE]

^It is proposed to be funded by the CRL. However, under the new Community Amenity Contributions framework, there would be a sizeable chunk of money from new developments that could be allocated for park development.

https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...ributions.aspx

[GreenSPACE]

^Specific contributions: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...ion_Boards.pdf

[Mr.D]

^Specific contributions: https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...ion_Boards.pdf

Thanks for the info. It's nice to see the city finally working on a formal policy for amenity contributions. Hopefully, the city has enough funding mechanisms to get this funded and built in the upcoming capital budget. It could be a game changing park for downtown if done right. I know I always love checking out parks in central areas of major cities.

[GenWhy?]

Recently went to Boston and their main central park would be wonderful to emulate on a smaller scale. The Boston Commons had tennis, a pond, playground, subway access, lots of plaza space and seating. wide lit paths for bikes and lots of criss cross lit paths for walking.

[IanO]

Downtown public spaces plan - have your say:

https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...wnpublicplaces

[IanO]

Share your vision for Downtown public places
July 11, 2018

Join in a Downtown Public Places drop-in engagement session to help build a vibrant, safe and welcoming downtown for everyone. Review the draft policy framework and concept plan, and share your thoughts on how we can create great downtown open spaces, parks and plazas.

Date: Saturday, July 14
Time: 10 a.m. - 2 p.m.
Location: Michael Phair Park (by City Market), 10124 104 Street

Date: Monday, July 16
Time: 5 - 8 p.m.
Location: Downtown Edmonton Community League, 10042 103 Street

Date: Tuesday, July 31
Time: 11 a.m. - 2 p.m.
Location: Edmonton Tower Lobby, 10111 104 Avenue

Downtown public places provide space for Edmontonians to socialize, celebrate, recharge and live life. It is important that the public and stakeholders be involved in shaping the Downtown Public Places Plan to create a stronger, more relevant and effective plan. An online survey will be available from July 14 to September 14 on the project webpage.


For more information:
edmonton.ca/downtownpublicplaces

Media contact:
Ashish Mohan
Communications Advisor
Urban Form & Corporate Strategic Development
780-508-9528

[IanO]

Surveys are up!

https://www.edmonton.ca/projects_pla...aces-plan.aspx


https://www.edmontoninsightcommunity...raft-thumb.jpg

[Sonic Death Monkey]

Expropriation of downtown land begins for future Edmonton park

onstruction of a new major downtown Edmonton park is gaining momentum after the city issued notices of intention to expropriate lands earlier this week.As many as 18 lots will be bought by the city on both sides of 107 Street as part of its downtown redevelopment plan in the Warehouse Campus Neighbourhood.
Four companies currently own the land which is about 1.25 hectares and is considered the “largest contiguous area of currently vacant land” in the new neighbourhood.
The new park, to be located just north of Jasper Avenue behind Audreys Books and the Boston Pizza, is currently a gravel parking wasteland but it is hoped that the new city green space will attract more residential development to the area and increase foot traffic.

The warehouse district park was originally approved by city council in 2010 and will be funded through a downtown community revitalization levy tied to construction of Rogers Place.
The city voted in early 2017 to approve the expropriation process.
Under the Expropriation Act, land owners have 21 days from the time the notification is served to lodge an official objection.
If an owner files a formal objection, an inquiry officer is appointed by the province to investigate if the deal is “fair, sound and reasonably necessary in order to achieve the city’s objectives.”
If an agreement cannot be reached between the city and the landowners, the Land Compensation Board will determine “the amount of compensation payable to an owner.”
The process can take up to six months to complete.

[Vincent]

Whoohoo! Progress. I wonder what the design process will be like. I'm assuming they'll solicit public input in regards to design, features and amenities.

[IanO]

Bingo. Cannot wait to see how this turns out, but I fully expect:

- A playground
- Fountain
- Little cafe
- Recreational opportunities

[Vincent]

I'm really hoping for some good photos ops, like an enormous fountain, strange yet impressive art work, creek with bridge, maybe a waterfall. Lots of trees and at least a decent sized pond to attract some wildlife.

[ctzn-Ed]

^^
For me, I hope the city built something people will use as I will be �� if I see this park ignored like most other park including THE PARK that we have.

[Stevey_G]

So, don’t sell?

[Seandroid]

If this is well executed, it could be our Millennium Park. I am so excited.

[IanO]

A miniature version, but yes, critically important.

[ctzn-Ed]

It is a total of 1 block in area, so I wouldnt expect much but a glorified Beaver park which is 1,5 blocks away. If were talking about " Central Park" as alluded by the title, boy are folks going to be bitterly disappointed. Think of Churchill Square as that will be the size basically.

That in mind, if it was a unique park dedicating to native flowers or plants of Alberta and orchestrating with some water theme, Imm OK with that. There is no sense of building a homogenized park 4 times ' Beaver park ' let's not even start with the supposedly green OASIS at 105st-103ave. A green oasis for the concrete jungle that used the same elements of the concrete jungle only to be called 'green oasis'. At least that concrete platform could have been painted green. I have yet to see activation with one person in it every time I walk or drive by.


What truly has me perplexed is that when friends come up/over to Canada, they're like kids eyeing delicious candies when they see the river valley and wished they had that; here we want Mellinium or CP without the population to really stimulate it. I'll guaranty in advance without trying to be negative... after the original fanfare, she'll be a wasteland accept lunch hours.

[Vincent]

If this is well executed, it could be our Millennium Park. I am so excited.

That's what I was thinking and hoping for. A place that visitors will want to see when they're in Edmonton. If it's just another generic park, then that's a wasted opportunity.

[GreenSPACE]

^It will probably be a bit of both. A large greenspace with some other recreational opportunities, but could also have a cafe, playground and/or water feature or significant art pieces.

However, what will make this park feel different is when development, ie. towers, are developed around it.

[IanO]

^^which is being built to support the following, IN ADDITION to the ~60k daytime population:

Edgar - 106st/102ave - two towers, 600-700 units
Westrich - 106st south of Edgar - 1 tower 600 units
Pangman/MacLab - 108st/Jasper - 2 towers 1100-1200 units
Healy - 106st/103ave - 3 towers - up to 1300 units

So in addition to the people in the area now, this is as much for the future as it is today.

We need ensure active uses, diversity of uses and recreational opportunities to drive a variety of traffic throughout the day and night.

[GenWhy?]

Periheral commercial uses and townhome entrances. Flanking the park with mews would be good for safety. Parks are interanl and external by design for good activation.
I hope they get this right for an urban park.

[DanC]

I hope the zoning surrounding it is updated to deliver as many patrons as possible directly adjacent and to manage weather conditions that can affect the park (wind off towers, sun access) etc.

It is a great long term investment for the growing Downtown community and more broadly for the significant amount of Edmontonians who work and visit the Downtown area.

[IanO]

Edgar is looking at Townhouses fronting 106st.

[McBoo]

Playground sounds good - another water feature never hurts, as long as it's not one that constantly breaks down.

Some kind of food / beverage kiosk would also be great - help pay some of the maintenance costs.

But, what I think would also be great is some relief - Beaver Hills has a sunken section, ADP is flat, how 'bout a hill for this one?

[ctzn-Ed]

The problem with hills is that it creates blockage which fosters unkindly acts. Beavor had that and drug deals...

[GreenSPACE]

Also, park needs to accommodate recreational uses - ie. throwing a football around, or tennis courts, etc. Probably will be mostly flat.

[kkozoriz]

^^which is being built to support the following, IN ADDITION to the ~60k daytime population:

Edgar - 106st/102ave - two towers, 600-700 units
Westrich - 106st south of Edgar - 1 tower 600 units
Pangman/MacLab - 108st/Jasper - 2 towers 1100-1200 units
Healy - 106st/103ave - 3 towers - up to 1300 units

So in addition to the people in the area now, this is as much for the future as it is today.

We need ensure active uses, diversity of uses and recreational opportunities to drive a variety of traffic throughout the day and night.

So where's the equivalent city park for WEM or the U of A? Or don't their daytime populations count?

[ctzn-Ed]

Are you for real? My tax money is expect to built a park for WEM which is a business; they could built with the money and interest from that which they stole from us tax payers. The fact that youre at the forefront when tax issue come up , and here you advocate a park for a private family...where is your principle as it is all over the place? UoA's park is a block north called the river valley. Once again, you're off to LA LA land and didn't bring us with you.

[kkozoriz]

You mean like spending $600 million to build an arena for a privately owned hockey team? Sure, it's owned by the city on paper but we don't actually get to use it for 35 years. Until that time, it's a $600 million gift to a private business and if you want to go into it, you have to pay him. At least if there was a public park at WEM, it would actually be open to the public at no charge.

[ctzn-Ed]

Yup! And the return to downtown is also evident. WEM destroyed the overall of a city. Once again derailing the topic with something else. On that tangent, where is our 2 - 300 million rec centre for downtown that every other area of the city has? Do you see the trade off? The problem with you is that you only want things to bennifit you; just like your tangent about money helping drug addicts. " Me me me only can't you see how important my plight is and F yours." Ppfff!

[Stevey_G]

Yup! And the return to downtown is also evident. WEM destroyed the overall of a city. Once again derailing the topic with something else. On that tangent, where is our 2 - 300 million rec centre for downtown that every other area of the city has? Do you see the trade off? The problem with you is that you only want things to bennifit you; just like your tangent about money helping drug addicts. " Me me me only can't you see how important my plight is and F yours." Ppfff!

The overall health and vitality of the city is dependent on projects like these going ahead and ensuring all communities have their respective amenities. Downtown being a fairly important one in the way of drawing businesses to a district with high taxes and potential corporate tax revenue growth that other parts of the city can't and won't see.

Personally, with how high our taxes are, I expect things like rec centres and parks to be everywhere.

[KC]

As I argued before. I believe downtown killed itself. WEM was built AFTER much of downtown fell ill.



Scroll to bottom of this very old article’s link for a realistic estimate of WEM’s impact on Edmonton ($ and jobs).

http://www.academia.edu/16893113/The..._Edmonton_Mall



A rec centre downtown would be nice. However, there’s already some services and I’d guess that there’s also a problem with the lack of youth downtown so the rec centre would not be like the rest.


Also the downtown has services I’ll never see out in the suburbs. Don’t expect to see them either and don’t want my tax dollars duplicating everything everywhere.

[IanO]

The YCMA is our defacto rec centre, but the Commonwealth or Kinsmen recreation centres are nearby. This would serve a different need and will make the area that much closer to a complete community over the next 10-20-50-100yrs.

[ctzn-Ed]

I beg to differ. If WEM had not existed, downtown wouldn't be where it is today. Every city has a cycle of stagnation to its core. Reinvention would have progressed much better and faster without WEM. Malls downtown would still have buoyancy without WEM.

[KC]

Late ‘50s
Population around 200,000
Malls & retail added (approx year)

Westmount Shoppers Park (1955)
Bonnie Doon Shopping Centre (1957 or 1960)
Simpson Sears Park Plaza (1958 )
97th retail (date?)
Other?

1960s
Meadowlark [1964]
Northgate (1965)
Capilano (1968 )


1970s
Southgate mall (1970)
Londonderry Mall (1972)
Northtown Mall (1975)
Kingsway Garden Mall (1976)

Late 1970s
Population around 500,000

Early 1980s
WEM (1981, 1983, 1985 and 1999)


Mill Woods Town Centre (1988 )




Also:
Aug. 18, 1955: Edmonton’s first mall pulls traffic in — and away from downtown

“In fact, the only thing remotely like Westmount in North America was Highland Park Village in Dallas, Texas, built in 1931.

A group of American financiers pitched the proposal to city council in Oct. 1952 asking for six city blocks between 111th and 114th Avenues and 133rd and 135th Streets to be rezoned from a...”

“Until then, downtown had been the only shopping game in town with The Bay, Woodward’s and Eaton’s, as well as dozens of small, independent stores. Downtown also was the city’s entertainment destination with movie houses, restaurants and bars. But a lack of parking had become a real headache

One big thing that made Westmount so appealing was its 3,000 free parking spaces.“...

http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...-from-downtown

[kkozoriz]

The YCMA is our defacto rec centre, but the Commonwealth or Kinsmen recreation centres are nearby. This would serve a different need and will make the area that much closer to a complete community over the next 10-20-50-100yrs.

Along with the "community rink". Of course, that's used by the Oilers, Oil Kings and MacEwan as well. But you're happy to use those dates that it's unavailable to the public to boast how busy it is.

[GenWhy?]

A change in grade in a larger field is an almost assumed "go-to" for a park this size and for its use / urban setting. Though most examples I could give do have a natural grade change on their edges, but there are many creative ways around this that can be accomodated that I've seen. For instance, placing a grassed slope or hill on the backside of CRUs or washrooms in the park on what is normally a blank wall, which leaves all sides activated and used. I've seen the tops of change rooms or washrooms and park facilities recently built as look-out points.

If you want to see some Canadian out-of-the-box public infrastructure check out Carscadden: https://www.carscadden.ca/public.

A park that's a mix between David Lam and Emery Barns would be a good mix, to give two well regarded western Canadian parks (I only mention because they're new and I visit Van often). Would love to see some GTA examples.

[ctzn-Ed]

The YCMA is our defacto rec centre, but the Commonwealth or Kinsmen recreation centres are nearby. This would serve a different need and will make the area that much closer to a complete community over the next 10-20-50-100yrs.

Along with the "community rink". Of course, that's used by the Oilers, Oil Kings and MacEwan as well. But you're happy to use those dates that it's unavailable to the public to boast how busy it is.

How much was given for the rink? 30 million. Thanks for the Toyota Corrola when you got a .... What kind of car can one buy with 250-300 million vs 30 million. The YMCA also had private donation- to my recollection. You got tax payers money; downtown shopped with food stamps. You expect us to clean your mess with your family issue; I taught my kids to be responsible, know their consequences and clean their own mess. I'm really buying your arguments now...

[Medwards]

I beg to differ. If WEM had not existed, downtown wouldn't be where it is today. Every city has a cycle of stagnation to its core. Reinvention would have progressed much better and faster without WEM. Malls downtown would still have buoyancy without WEM.

If WEM didn't exist, some other malls may have been bigger. Meadowlark + Centennial Mall would be much different today. Maybe Heritage Mall would still exist too. Malls certainly stagnated downtown retail in the past, Kingsway certainly had its share of killing downtown retail too.

[IanO]

Kingsway has a more and repeated direct negative impact.

[ctzn-Ed]

Possibly Med. I'm not certain of your age range, so I dont know if you remembered the 80's at all. When WEM opened, many establishments on Jasper ave and downtown closed, and many moved to WEM because the mall took all the traffic away from Jasper/ downtown. Granted, we did have a back to back recession, but the damage would not have been so severe without WEM. They brought in lots of tourist, but those tourist would have still shopped in Edmonton regardless as most were local, provincial and immediate inter provincial; the only grace would have been international.

[KC]

You’ll have to provide some names of stores that relocated. I recall it being mentioned but that’s all. The loss of one of two stores sure wouldn’t affect downtown.

I remember Jasper Avenue being ripped up.

I remember the loss of store front retail when the Manulife Tower was built.

The Hudson’s Bay on Jasper closing...


Don’t recall this closure but it was 1979.

Transforming Edmonton » Johnstone Walker Limited, “Edmonton’s Own Store”

“The Johnstone Walker store was a feature of Jasper Avenue for decades; there are several photographs of it in our online catalogue. At one point there were five locations, including one in Calgary. The Jasper Avenue store was closed in 1979 and the company focused on their “suburban stores” at Boonie Doon, Westmount and Southgate.”

https://transformingedmonton.ca/john...ons-own-store/

[kkozoriz]

The storefront from Maulife was because the King Edward Hotel had burned. There was no retail to be replaced, at least not on the 101 street side.

[ctzn-Ed]

I was about 14 and it has been at least 40 years... but the news stated some closed down because of lack of traffic, and some moved to WEM. Harry Rosen was one that I could remember. WEM 's existence caused outside interests to also bypass downtown when we tried to revitalize. From my recollection, 1986 was the pivotal shift that destroyed downtown up until recently where it has finally garnered momentum.

[Stevey_G]

A summation of what caused downtown to stagnate in the 1980s:

The construction of WEM
The relocation of a significant portion of our corporate sector down south.
The revitalization of Whyte Avenue
High borrowing costs disenfranchising new developments.
Federal Economic Policies

[IanO]

...LRT under Jasper.
NEP
Malls
A general decline of many Downtowns/central cores
etc.
etc.
etc.

[ctzn-Ed]

All those were factors for sure, but WEM was that arrow to finish it off. In all honesty, downtown wouldn't have stagnated as badly as it was without WEM. Other malls suffered as well. Southgate's revival was when it opened with the expansion/LRT. Heritage mall closed. Boney Doon, Westmount, Londondary, Northgate, Northtown, Beaumaris (?) and Meadowlark all died because of WEM. It is great they're successful, but it was all cards shuffled from all coners to one on the very edge of west end.