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Thread: Commuting preferences to the Downtown - split from Ice District Thread

  1. #1

    Default Commuting preferences to the Downtown - split from Ice District Thread

    {ADMIN EDTI}

    This was the first post in the Ice District thread that started the conversation on downtown transportation preferences.

    {END EDIT}

    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.

  2. #2

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    Some inconvenience is understandable to accommodate growth, but it needs to be done in a responsible manner. I don't know why there was so much uproar about Fox and Ultima blocking off a sidewalk, whereas there's nary a peep when Ice District blocks off sidewalks and roads all around the development (104 ave, 103 ave, 103 st, 102 st), some of it unnecessarily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.
    I wouldn't say most people drive. Maybe in the far suburbs. But downtown it's mostly young people who don't have cars, as well as commuters which largely take the LRT and bus to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.
    I don't think it affects future traffic flow after the buildings are complete, or future area traffic flow projections. Some taxi stands might be in order. LRT expansion on the move too. It's commonly known that urban personal vehicle use casually falls as density, transit and amenities and mixed-use are implemented. Should be a neat pedestrianized plaza, when it's not used as a service lane for Tower B.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.
    I wouldn't say most people drive. Maybe in the far suburbs. But downtown it's mostly young people who don't have cars, as well as commuters which largely take the LRT and bus to work.
    Really?

    82% of the city would disagree with that statement.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti.../t001c-eng.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatestX View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.
    I wouldn't say most people drive. Maybe in the far suburbs. But downtown it's mostly young people who don't have cars, as well as commuters which largely take the LRT and bus to work.
    Really?

    82% of the city would disagree with that statement.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti.../t001c-eng.htm
    That doesn't prove anything. I'm talking about workers downtown. Your stat is all of Edmonton, including the large numbers of people who go to industrial parks etc every day for work. Sure, those people would drive, but your average person who works downtown isn't impacted by road closures since downtown has good public transit options, which are getting better with the new LRT line. There's no reason to drive downtown at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatestX View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.
    I wouldn't say most people drive. Maybe in the far suburbs. But downtown it's mostly young people who don't have cars, as well as commuters which largely take the LRT and bus to work.
    Really?

    82% of the city would disagree with that statement.

    http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti.../t001c-eng.htm
    That doesn't prove anything. I'm talking about workers downtown. Your stat is all of Edmonton, including the large numbers of people who go to industrial parks etc every day for work. Sure, those people would drive, but your average person who works downtown isn't impacted by road closures since downtown has good public transit options, which are getting better with the new LRT line. There's no reason to drive downtown at all.
    What you say is largely true but even downtown roughly half of commuters still drive as illustrated here.

    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...tMarch2014.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by S3RI3S View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gonk View Post
    The Alberta Human Rights Act forbids discrimination on the basis of source of (legal) income and landlords should not ask for that information. They can ask for and use amount of income, but only as part of a larger picture of financial stability. Denying a tenant solely on the basis of them not meeting a minimum amount of income or income-to-rent ratio has been ruled by the courts as violating the AHRA.
    Then how does low income housing work? I swear i remember seeing that if your income was over a certain amount you could not rent/ or buy? from that location (Whatever that resi project was on 109 and jasper) .
    That is allowed, I believe, on the basis that barring high income renters does less overall harm than allowing them would. A high income renter has lots of options, a low income renter does not. If forced to compete, the poor will always lose and become homeless. If the rich are barred from renting certain units the consequences to them are not nearly as dire.

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    ^ That chart is kind of misleading if you realize 99% of the metro population lives outside of downtown.

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    The sample size was 1500 with 1/3 non Downtown Residents 1/3 Downtown residents and 1/3 mix of those who don't live Downtown, but Work Downtown.
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    Everyone knows that. Ian is the cheerleader for the DBA. Frankly he should state when he speaking for the DBA and when he speaks as a private person. That way there is no confusion by readers as to in what role he speaks. Or perhaps the small little Board of DBA with its self interests are too dim witted to know what is going on or don't give a tinker bell.

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    Excuse me? People were chatting about modal use/split and so I posted our latest pole with some information that is unbiased.
    Last edited by IanO; 13-01-2018 at 01:49 PM.
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    How do you normally commute to downtown ... 11% of the Downtown residents that responded who live downtown take the LRT. Interesting ... given there is only 4 stops "downtown". The report did not indicate sample size etc. or maybe I missed that. In any event its a report for the DBA.

    I note today this CBC headline: "Downtown co-working trend moves to south Edmonton". Unfortunately the headline read "moves" - when its simply a private business providing co-working space to be accessed by membership for a price. But it does make me wonder why DBA is not championing a massive start-up/co-work space in some empty places in the core to help some of these self employed people to stay in the core and grow their businesses in the core.

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ners-1.4485052

    and not back to Tower B.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 13-01-2018 at 02:05 PM.

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    Ian - You can say its an unbiased survey but if you have to come up with actual numbers instead of "downtown residents do this" while "other residents do that" then, using easy numbers, only 26 % of 10000 = 2600 residents of downtown commute by car while 55% of 1,000,000 outside of downtown are doing this = 550,000. ie The downtown resident's opinion means virtually nothing to the city as a whole. A 26 % and 55% making it seem like your comparing apples with apples but you are comparing apples with oranges.

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    Take it for what it is, a survey of a mixed group of 1500 Edmontonians and their modal choice when heading to or within the Downtown.
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    drive on 97th street between the yellowhead and downtown , then tell me no-one uses cars to commute.

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    It's not the survey, it's the graph and the implication. Numbers that might be graphically impelling are total numbers by each segment weighted by how many commutes are generated from outside downtown compared to those generated inside. As it is it only tells me that it is easier to walk or ride to work inside downtown than outside well duh.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Take it for what it is, a survey of a mixed group of 1500 Edmontonians and their modal choice when heading to or within the Downtown.
    Thanks for posting those data but I have serious methodological concerns with the DBA survey. The survey was done using SurveyMonkey and recruitment into the survey was online and through social media; whence it's prone to selection bias.

    Not surprisingly, this is reflected in the demographics. Your (DBA) survey had 35% of respondents between 25-34 years of age; the Statistics Canada 2016 census for Edmonton had only 18% of Edmontonians in this bracket. For the 35-44 year age group your (DBA) survey had 19% whereas the StatsCan census had only 14%.

    Essentially your (DBA) survey over-represents younger people who are more likely not to drive. I suspect the true number of downtown residents who drive is higher than what your (DBA) survey indicates.

    By contrast, StatsCan indicates 85% of Edmontonians use a private vehicle (either as a driver or passenger) as their main mode of commuting. These data do not distinguish downtown residents from the rest of the city, however.

    That being said, I still believe downtown residents are less likely to drive than other residents. However, the true proportion is likely somewhat higher than your (DBA) 26% and somewhat lower than StarsCan's 85%. (The City of Edmonton data I referenced earlier indicate it's about 50% for downtown.)

    Despite all of the above, however, I find it interesting that the first conclusion of the paper you referenced still focused on cars and parking. To wit, from "Challenges and Opportunities", page 30:

    One of the most important take-aways from the 2017
    survey was that people are looking for a variety of
    ways to get Downtown and want parking options
    that are cheap, readily available and conveniently
    located. As our Downtown is becoming more vibrant,
    the demand for parking is going to further rise...
    References:
    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&TABID=1

    http://www.edmontondowntown.com/uplo...ports/2017.pdf

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    The survey was done through www.edmontonjournal.com and while it doesn't tell the whole picture, it certainly provides a snapshot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The survey was done through www.edmontonjournal.com and while it doesn't tell the whole picture, it certainly provides a snapshot.
    That's what I said, recruitment was online (edmontonjournal.com) and through social media. Quoting from the DBA report itself:

    Unlike the 2010 survey which was conducted through
    telephone by an external consultant, the 2017 survey was
    conducted online using the “SurveyMonkey” software.
    The survey was designed after careful deliberation,
    relevant background research and by conducting more
    than 20 personal interviews with various Downtown
    stakeholders. Downtown boundaries were shared in
    the survey to ensure that respondents are aware of
    what constitutes Downtown. Post design and after
    multiple test runs, the survey link was shared via an
    article on Edmonton Journal’s digital media portal
    (edmontonjournal.com). The survey was also shared
    on DBA’s social media pages, Facebook and Twitter.
    A snapshot is deceiving if the lens is distorted.

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    n=1500 is a good sample size statistically to provide results. It was conducted through a third party site with good exposure to the entire city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    n=1500 is a good sample size statistically to provide results. It was conducted through a third party site with good exposure to the entire city.
    How do you reconcile the demographic differences between the DBA sample and that for Statistics Canada?

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    You can't reconcile differences by that representation although you could probably find or infer the data that is actually needed. That is because although the graph purports to be about modal share it is not. It is modal share outside downtown and modal share inside downtown but not actual modal share and is instead comparing an orange with an apple.

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    That's the best thing about stats, they vary depending on quantitative method. Statistically significant, bias, error, variance etc. all come into play regardless of survey or surveyor.
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  26. #26

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    Jebus can we go one thread / week / month without attacking /bashing Ian? Its growing quite tiresome.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Jebus can we go one thread / week / month without attacking /bashing Ian? Its growing quite tiresome.
    Nobody has attacked or bashed anybody.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    That's the best thing about stats, they vary depending on quantitative method. Statistically significant, bias, error, variance etc. all come into play regardless of survey or surveyor.
    That skirts around the fact that in the survey data you posted there is the significant potential for bias. Namely the reliance on self-selection (using online and social media recruitment) rather than random selection and the skewed demographics of the sample (which are likely a result of the self-selection process).

    This is important because if a survey is going to be used to lobby for public policy then the data need to be collected in a rigorous fashion and as free from bias as possible. Moreover, relying on potentially biased data is also not helpful to either the residents or businesses of the area.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Magnus View Post
    Jebus can we go one thread / week / month without attacking /bashing Ian? Its growing quite tiresome.
    Nobody has attacked or bashed anybody.
    Ahem

    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Everyone knows that. Ian is the cheerleader for the DBA. Frankly he should state when he speaking for the DBA and when he speaks as a private person. That way there is no confusion by readers as to in what role he speaks. Or perhaps the small little Board of DBA with its self interests are too dim witted to know what is going on or don't give a tinker bell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    That's the best thing about stats, they vary depending on quantitative method. Statistically significant, bias, error, variance etc. all come into play regardless of survey or surveyor.
    That skirts around the fact that in the survey data you posted there is the significant potential for bias. Namely the reliance on self-selection (using online and social media recruitment) rather than random selection and the skewed demographics of the sample (which are likely a result of the self-selection process).

    This is important because if a survey is going to be used to lobby for public policy then the data need to be collected in a rigorous fashion and as free from bias as possible. Moreover, relying on potentially biased data is also not helpful to either the residents or businesses of the area.
    Akin to most other stats we see out there and rarely know the method/background/process of them either.

    That said, we did consult with a statistician to ensure our method was as statistically reliable as possible with how we decided to proceed and what we were looking for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Take it for what it is, a survey of a mixed group of 1500 Edmontonians and their modal choice when heading to or within the Downtown.
    Thanks for posting those data but I have serious methodological concerns with the DBA survey. The survey was done using SurveyMonkey and recruitment into the survey was online and through social media; whence it's prone to selection bias.

    Not surprisingly, this is reflected in the demographics. Your (DBA) survey had 35% of respondents between 25-34 years of age; the Statistics Canada 2016 census for Edmonton had only 18% of Edmontonians in this bracket. For the 35-44 year age group your (DBA) survey had 19% whereas the StatsCan census had only 14%.

    Essentially your (DBA) survey over-represents younger people who are more likely not to drive. I suspect the true number of downtown residents who drive is higher than what your (DBA) survey indicates.

    By contrast, StatsCan indicates 85% of Edmontonians use a private vehicle (either as a driver or passenger) as their main mode of commuting. These data do not distinguish downtown residents from the rest of the city, however.

    That being said, I still believe downtown residents are less likely to drive than other residents. However, the true proportion is likely somewhat higher than your (DBA) 26% and somewhat lower than StarsCan's 85%. (The City of Edmonton data I referenced earlier indicate it's about 50% for downtown.)

    Despite all of the above, however, I find it interesting that the first conclusion of the paper you referenced still focused on cars and parking. To wit, from "Challenges and Opportunities", page 30:

    One of the most important take-aways from the 2017
    survey was that people are looking for a variety of
    ways to get Downtown and want parking options
    that are cheap, readily available and conveniently
    located. As our Downtown is becoming more vibrant,
    the demand for parking is going to further rise...
    References:
    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&TABID=1

    http://www.edmontondowntown.com/uplo...ports/2017.pdf
    Stats Can includes all Edmontonians, the DBA survey likely didn't survey children. You won't have a direct comparison between those ever.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Take it for what it is, a survey of a mixed group of 1500 Edmontonians and their modal choice when heading to or within the Downtown.
    Thanks for posting those data but I have serious methodological concerns with the DBA survey. The survey was done using SurveyMonkey and recruitment into the survey was online and through social media; whence it's prone to selection bias.

    Not surprisingly, this is reflected in the demographics. Your (DBA) survey had 35% of respondents between 25-34 years of age; the Statistics Canada 2016 census for Edmonton had only 18% of Edmontonians in this bracket. For the 35-44 year age group your (DBA) survey had 19% whereas the StatsCan census had only 14%.

    Essentially your (DBA) survey over-represents younger people who are more likely not to drive. I suspect the true number of downtown residents who drive is higher than what your (DBA) survey indicates.

    By contrast, StatsCan indicates 85% of Edmontonians use a private vehicle (either as a driver or passenger) as their main mode of commuting. These data do not distinguish downtown residents from the rest of the city, however.

    That being said, I still believe downtown residents are less likely to drive than other residents. However, the true proportion is likely somewhat higher than your (DBA) 26% and somewhat lower than StarsCan's 85%. (The City of Edmonton data I referenced earlier indicate it's about 50% for downtown.)

    Despite all of the above, however, I find it interesting that the first conclusion of the paper you referenced still focused on cars and parking. To wit, from "Challenges and Opportunities", page 30:

    One of the most important take-aways from the 2017
    survey was that people are looking for a variety of
    ways to get Downtown and want parking options
    that are cheap, readily available and conveniently
    located. As our Downtown is becoming more vibrant,
    the demand for parking is going to further rise...
    References:
    http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...B1=All&TABID=1

    http://www.edmontondowntown.com/uplo...ports/2017.pdf
    Stats Can includes all Edmontonians, the DBA survey likely didn't survey children. You won't have a direct comparison between those ever.
    That's a good point but even after excluding children from the StatsCan data the DBA sample still skews younger. But, yes, thank you.

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    As cities grow, more people take transit downtown.

    Edmonton will be no exception.

    Transit is the answer.

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    As will bike usage and pedestrian counts.
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    This is not meant to demean Ian or the DBA but I still think the graph is misleading and this will be my last word on the subject. I will use an analogy to demonstrate.

    Dr Spence asked two of his patients to send in their head to shoulder, shoulder to waist and waist to floor as percentages of their total heights, He then graphed these heights against each other thus comparing them. Imagine his surprise when the two patients came to his office and patient A was 10 feet tall and patient B was 1 foot tall. I don't understand he says. I was graphing the same items and they appeared to be comparable.

    The problem was that he was graphing A as a percentage of A and B as a percentage of B and tried to rationalise them as being the same after all they were measuring the same things. Similarly the DBA graph shows a graph of the downtown commuter traffic measured against itself as being the same as the outside of downtown commuters measured against themselves and then displaying these two different things as if they're the same.

    I think the DBA might be 1 foot high and the outside DBA 10 feet high.

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    As will bike usage and pedestrian counts.
    and cars.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    I have a feeling the city is going to live to regret that 102 ave thing. One day we'll all realize that most of us still drive cars.
    I wouldn't say most people drive. Maybe in the far suburbs. But downtown it's mostly young people who don't have cars, as well as commuters which largely take the LRT and bus to work.
    It's about 50/50 in the core.



    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...tMarch2014.pdf

    Wide bands used for grouping, but if you look at the other maps & do the math about half of central Edmontonians drive to work.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    n=1500 is a good sample size statistically to provide results. It was conducted through a third party site with good exposure to the entire city.
    Sample size is largely irrelevant if the survey itself is self-selecting, which this was.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    We really need to sort out how to use the following to distinguish areas:

    1. Downtown
    2. Core
    3. Central Edmonton
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  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We really need to sort out how to use the following to distinguish areas:

    1. Downtown
    2. Core
    3. Central Edmonton
    Hilarious coming from one of the more egregious abusers of the ambiguity. Murder 50 feet outside of the official Downtown boundaries? "NOT DOWNTOWN! WE NEED ACCURACY IN REPORTING!"
    New restaurant opens on the far end of Oliver on 124 St? "I LOVE ALL THE DOWNTOWN RESTOS! HERE'S MY BLURRY OFF COLOUR SHOT OF BOOZE AND MEAT!"
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Try again.
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  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Try again.
    Nah, I'm good. I'm glad others have wised up to your disingenuous, duplicitous, explicitly-biased shilling for Downtown.

    Remember, you've left yourself over 44,000 pieces of evidence showing your true colours on C2E alone. I don't have to try and prove something you've confirmed in your own words at length, nor do I feel the need to couch my contempt for your transparent motivations.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  43. #43

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    Noticing a distinct difference in wording and census / stat and people's interpretations... biggest elements to look at are commuting to WORK, which is the typical Stats Can method, and then there is one's MOST-USED commuting method. If the survey above asked how you travel Downtown, it might be by foot or transit more-so than car, and that persons commute to work might be entirely by personal car, but they would choose the other options due to the question.

    Or a person living in Downtown or Oliver might choose that they walk to Downtown, but still commute to work by car if they work just outside the core or Downtown. Stats give you many "snapshots", but designing the core and mature neighbourhoods for multi-modal and more balanced modal share is the result of changing urban form, and a general paradigm shift. It will be interesting to see another new snapshots and Census data reports post-2020 with the Valley LRT and new high-rises.
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