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Thread: Premier Notley's First Year

  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2cents View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 2cents View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Yeah, funny, but I've known people that would certainly have been NDP voters that lived the lifestyle of a basement dweller (actually were renters), but I'm also quite certain that they paid more in annual income taxes than I earned salary at the time. And as for their networks, both were quite broad. Basically it's not just unemployed and union people supporting the left. Some are independently wealthy, some are university / academic types, some even own businesses, even ones that aren't dependent on government spending.

    I would guess the same applies in reverse to the conservative voters. I'm sure it has basement dwellers too. I've also known people who are very right wing, also successful, but would be broke if it weren't for their government contracts or government regulations that sustain their business and limit their competition.
    So the obvious question is why in their entire history have they never even been the official opposition? And why after the last 2 previous elections did they not even have enough MLAs to satisfy the requirements for official party status? If there is this large and diverse base why has it never resulted in elected MLAs?

    Be careful now circular logic can lead to muscle cramps. Might want to do some stretching before you reach for your answer.
    I am a bit confused here - there is only one party that has an MLAs currently that has never been the official opposition at some point in time in Alberta and that is the Alberta Party. Every other such party - Wildrose, Liberal, NDP and PC's have been the official opposition at some point in time. Now to be fair to the Alberta Party, it is quite new whereas many of the others have been around much longer, but I don't get the sense you are referring to them.
    My mistake, you are right, they were the official opposition on 2 occasions. Forgot about Ray Martin, decent fellow but not know for charisma. And Notley was the official opposition although the party only had 2 seats in the early 80s.
    Yes, If I recall correctly, Ray Martin was the 2nd one - a small opposition, but that was when Lougheed was still premier or shortly after that. However, in the election after that they won a lot more seats, I think a similar number to what Wildrose won when they became the Official Opposition.

  2. #202

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    I guess Sandra Jansen Conservative MLA has crossed the floor to NDP.


    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ews-conference
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  3. #203
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    I hope she can talk Rachel into postponing the carbon tax.

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I hope she can talk Rachel into postponing the carbon tax.
    I'd love to see all the options and combinations of options put to a province wide vote. (Except we sort of did that already.)

    No carbon tax? Then what?

    A PST? What percent? On what?

    No more reliance on royalities? Then what?

    Cut services? Exactly what services and jobs get cut?

    Or borrow billions more? To what upper limit? Exactly what dollar limit?

    What do we do about global warming? Exactly what do we do?

    What do we do about future oil sands, pipelines development?...

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post

    (Except we sort of did that already.)
    yeah

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I hope she can talk Rachel into postponing the carbon tax.
    I'd love to see all the options and combinations of options put to a province wide vote. (Except we sort of did that already.)

    No carbon tax? Then what?

    A PST? What percent? On what?

    No more reliance on royalities? Then what?

    Cut services? Exactly what services and jobs get cut?

    Or borrow billions more? To what upper limit? Exactly what dollar limit?

    What do we do about global warming? Exactly what do we do?

    What do we do about future oil sands, pipelines development?...
    I'm sure the sky will fall and the world will come to an end without Alberta Canada's new carbon tax. lol.

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    I hope she can talk Rachel into postponing the carbon tax.
    I'd love to see all the options and combinations of options put to a province wide vote. (Except we sort of did that already.)

    No carbon tax? Then what?

    A PST? What percent? On what?

    No more reliance on royalities? Then what?

    Cut services? Exactly what services and jobs get cut?

    Or borrow billions more? To what upper limit? Exactly what dollar limit?

    What do we do about global warming? Exactly what do we do?

    What do we do about future oil sands, pipelines development?...
    I'm sure the sky will fall and the world will come to an end without Alberta Canada's new carbon tax. lol.
    Yeah, only for environmentalists (and future generations). It's a money maker and job creator for the governments that want to (or are under pressure to) spend more to restore or sustain economic 'growth'.

    It's a simple matter though, if you don't raise money and increase the velocity of money circulating in the economy via a new tax and wealth redistribution, what would you do as an alternative? Be descriptive though. Saying "Make it so" doesn't cut it in the real world.

    Note that our NDP borrowed more money (and a lot of people are still working as a result) and it now needs free cash flow to pay the interest costs. Delay the carbon tax and then do what?


    Without being specific enough over many posts I've suggested options like forcing down public sector wages (which is wrong in the sense that many of their services are totally unrelated to the se for that screwed up*, but that's life) without instituting gov't job cuts and instead downsizing through attrition, adding a PST that is piggybacked on the GST (though I believe food and many other except items and services should be subject to GST). I've been ok with borrowing billions more at today's low interest rates, though only because we need a soft landing and the PCs did dick-all to prepare for this downturn. I'm also ok with raising income taxes because those still working and profiting in this economy can afford to share a bit more to help prevent a downward spiral while helping the more helpless people here (many of whom we wrongly encouraged to come here because we create a costly economic bubble that required more labour and massive bubble-level infrastructure buildout.)

    * like asking private sector farmers or doctors or accountants to step up big time and bail out oil sector workers because the oil sector couldn't run their businesses well enough to responsibly look after their hired staff and the government couldn't do by reducing our dependence on highly volatile royalties.

    On the other hand, we could slash and burn everything and let the survivors pick up the pieces, often at 10-cents on the dollar, while socializing the public sector debt costs... (Eg. I was prepared for the 2008/09 market collapse and was looking forward to deep value opportunities, but the world's governments jumped in and bailed out everything and absolutly killed any chance of really great firesale pricing. In the meantime they have hammered conservative savers via ZIRP and given manna from heaven to debt loving consumers plus hedge funds, and they've bailed out millionaire and billionaire classes while socializing all the costs over the dying middle class. Well, that's life.)
    Last edited by KC; 18-11-2016 at 09:50 AM.

  8. #208
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    It's not the tax as much as the timing. It's getting kicked in the teeth while the province is down. Extra taxes will not bring prosperity, it will have the opposite effect. It could finish us off, even you may be looking for work.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 18-11-2016 at 09:40 AM.

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    The farmers will be seeking bailouts as the harvest was not completed this year. 50% and more in some areas is laying in the fields. I'm sure they and everyone else will appreciate paying more for EVERYTHING once the carbon tax is initiated.

  10. #210

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    Cool thing about taxes is they primarily kick those who are not down. Especially taxes that come with a flat rebate.
    There can only be one.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    It's not the tax as much as the timing. It's getting kicked in the teeth while the province is down. Extra taxes will not bring prosperity, it will have the opposite effect. It could finish us off, even you may be looking for work.
    Except it's being federally required, so it's not really just up to the Alberta NDP's.

    Plus there are always reasons why someone thinks it's a bad idea, timing wise. When would a good time to implement this be?

  12. #212

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    Farmers and their commie government-backed insurance.

    I'm kidding, but what the heck does a poor harvest have to do with carbon tax?
    There can only be one.

  13. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The farmers will be seeking bailouts as the harvest was not completed this year. 50% and more in some areas is laying in the fields. I'm sure they and everyone else will appreciate paying more for EVERYTHING once the carbon tax is initiated.
    Look at the dollar dropping 20%. We face price volatility everyday but largely don't even notice it. This tax isn't going to flow to the US, most of it P, except for interest on debt portions) will be spent in Alberta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Farmers and their commie government-backed insurance.

    I'm kidding, but what the heck does a poor harvest have to do with carbon tax?
    Just that KC had mentioned farmers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Cool thing about taxes is they primarily kick those who are not down. Especially taxes that come with a flat rebate.
    So we are looking forward to the rebate? Party time. lol
    Last edited by Drumbones; 18-11-2016 at 10:38 AM.

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    Tax and spend typical of the NDP. They ruined Saskatchewan before Brad Wall, and now they are doing the same to Alberta. Yet now you lefties are whining about your masters policies. Remember, You voted her in. "we need change," was your manifesto. Us Centre people tried to warn you but that fell on deaf ears. Now you have your change. All of these NDP policies, Bill 6, the carbon tax, etc, is what You wanted.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  17. #217

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    Which part of "tax & spend" do you have a problem with? Is it the taxing? Or the spending? Would a government of "only tax, not spend" or "no tax, only spend" be better? What about "tax or spend", where the government could flip a coin to determine which way the money is going (in or out of government coffers)?

    Do other parties not tax? Or not spend tax dollars? Should we scrap taxation & run the country on donations then? Maybe try and fund the country's infrastructure with some sort of barter system?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    P.S. Brad Wall will have to implement a carbon tax too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Which part of "tax & spend" do you have a problem with? Is it the taxing? Or the spending? Would a government of "only tax, not spend" or "no tax, only spend" be better? What about "tax or spend", where the government could flip a coin to determine which way the money is going (in or out of government coffers)?

    Do other parties not tax? Or not spend tax dollars? Should we scrap taxation & run the country on donations then? Maybe try and fund the country's infrastructure with some sort of barter system?
    Obviously taxes are important to keep services. Your carbon tax is unpopular but you people voted for it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    P.S. Brad Wall will have to implement a carbon tax too.
    Imposed on the Province by the Federals. America went to war for less.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

  21. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Obviously taxes are important to keep services. Your carbon tax is unpopular but you people voted for it.
    What's a popular tax?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    All I'm just saying is you lefties voted for the carbon tax and now your whining about it.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    P.S. Brad Wall will have to implement a carbon tax too.
    Imposed on the Province by the Federals. America went to war for less.
    lol. A bit dramatic are you?

    Also, not whining here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Obviously taxes are important to keep services. Your carbon tax is unpopular but you people voted for it.
    What's a popular tax?
    The Robin Hood tax was popular, there were others but that came out first top of mind.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    P.S. Brad Wall will have to implement a carbon tax too.
    Imposed on the Province by the Federals. America went to war for less.
    lol. A bit dramatic are you?

    Also, not whining here.
    Seriously? Slavery is less than a carbon tax?
    Did somebody seriously suggest this?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  26. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Which part of "tax & spend" do you have a problem with? Is it the taxing? Or the spending? Would a government of "only tax, not spend" or "no tax, only spend" be better? What about "tax or spend", where the government could flip a coin to determine which way the money is going (in or out of government coffers)?

    Do other parties not tax? Or not spend tax dollars? Should we scrap taxation & run the country on donations then? Maybe try and fund the country's infrastructure with some sort of barter system?
    Looking over the history of the PC's in Alberta, I don't see that they really had much of a problem with spending. Yes, they made a show of cutting it back some when times were not good - maybe blowing up an old hospital here or there or cutting kindergarten spending, but spending would eventually go back up like a yo yo (even Klein did this) when the economy improved. They seemed to have many more reservations about taxing - especially higher income earners. Fortunately for them when oil prices were higher, royalties could make up most or all of the shortfall this created, they could balance (or almost balance) the budget and they could pretend to be great economic managers. Now with oil prices still around 1/3 of what they were at the peak of the boom - this strategy will not work for anyone anymore.

  27. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    All I'm just saying is you lefties voted for the carbon tax and now your whining about it.
    No, I fully support the carbon tax.

    Some people are okay with paying for the consequences of their actions.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  28. #228

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    Me too. I would support a higher carbon tax, and I hope it keeps going up once it's in.
    Higher income tax or a sales tax too, if it meant we were paying for our own services and not leaving it for the next generation to figure out.
    There can only be one.

  29. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    All I'm just saying is you lefties voted for the carbon tax and now your whining about it.
    No, I fully support the carbon tax.

    Some people are okay with paying for the consequences of their actions.
    The Conservatives seem to be the ones whining about it the most. If you are lower income, turn down the furnace a bit - save some money and still get the rebates, doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me. If you can afford it, but want to whine and don't care about the future of the planet - sorry I don't take you seriously.

  30. #230
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    Carbon tax does zero for anything climate. Smarten up, people who love to pay!

  31. #231
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    Whether we are for it or against it it's coming Jan 1. and time will tell what it brings. Corporations and the people in general are preparing for it. Many entrepreneurs are getting dollar signs in their eyes thinking of new ways to make money on climate change initiatives. That may mean work and careers for many. We will have to wait and see how things play out.

  32. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    All I'm just saying is you lefties voted for the carbon tax and now your whining about it.
    No, I fully support the carbon tax.

    Some people are okay with paying for the consequences of their actions.
    The Conservatives seem to be the ones whining about it the most. If you are lower income, turn down the furnace a bit - save some money and still get the rebates, doesn't seem like such a bad deal to me. If you can afford it, but want to whine and don't care about the future of the planet - sorry I don't take you seriously.
    Telling people to turn down their furnaces is not what they want to hear. People do not like getting preached to when it comes to what they do in their own homes.
    After a long days work all most people want to do is get home to a nice warm place when it's -40. They don't want to be sitting in the dark in a cold room with a one burner stove. People work hard for the basics in lifeand they are entitled to a comfortable home. Telling an elderly person or a sick person to turn down their heat is not the answer either. As for the planet. It Canada supposed to pick up the slack for the rest of the world. We emit 1.7 of the worlds carbon, hardly a blip on the radar. Yet the states, with Trump at the helm, are going to shred their carbon reduction papers in the shredder. China/India open their mouths about carbon emissions but what comes out is negative. I haven't heard what South American countries feel about this but I should imagine it is not on the top of their to do lists. I don't know why Canadian politicians feel it's their mandate to ram green energy through. If they were on the ball maybe they should spend more money on cleaning carbon emissions or capturing them. Who knows, there may be on chemical or compound out there that neutralizes the effects of carbon in fossil fuels.
    Maybe go in that direction.
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  33. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    P.S. Brad Wall will have to implement a carbon tax too.
    Imposed on the Province by the Federals. America went to war for less.
    lol. A bit dramatic are you?

    Also, not whining here.
    Seriously? Slavery is less than a carbon tax?
    Did somebody seriously suggest this?
    Actually no SDM

    I believe he was referring to the American War of Independence which was, in part, instigated by a tax on tea imposed on the colonists by the British Government. You might look up the "Boston Tea Party" for more information. In that context ... yup the Colonists of America did go to war for less and resulted in their independence in 1776. The Civil War (war against slavery) was the American Civil War of the mid 1800s.

    IMO

  34. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by hello lady View Post
    Carbon tax does zero for anything climate. Smarten up, people who love to pay!
    Meh. Good finance tool. Excellent way to reduce opposition to the oil sands.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  35. #235

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    I wonder how many times this has happened in the past....

    Energy and Environment


    The North Pole is an insane 36 degrees warmer than normal as winter descends

    By Chris Mooney and Jason Samenow November 17 at 1:41 PM



    Political people in the United States are watching the chaos in Washington in the moment. But some people in the science community are watching the chaos somewhere else - the Arctic.

    It’s polar night there now — the sun isn’t rising in much of the Arctic. That’s when the Arctic is supposed to get super-cold, when the sea ice that covers the vast Arctic Ocean is supposed to...


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.95eed5de7e9d
    Last edited by KC; 19-11-2016 at 03:52 AM.

  36. #236

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    It's sad that so many out there state their opinions as fact in a carbon tax discussion, I'm sorry but your opinion simply does not matter. Here's some real data for you to look over with regards to BC's consumption of gasoline in response to their carbon tax (and thus their associated reduction in CO2 emissions):




    Source: http://blogs.worldbank.org/climatech...onomic-success

  37. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I wonder how many times this has happened in the past....

    Energy and Environment


    The North Pole is an insane 36 degrees warmer than normal as winter descends

    By Chris Mooney and Jason Samenow November 17 at 1:41 PM



    Political people in the United States are watching the chaos in Washington in the moment. But some people in the science community are watching the chaos somewhere else - the Arctic.

    It’s polar night there now — the sun isn’t rising in much of the Arctic. That’s when the Arctic is supposed to get super-cold, when the sea ice that covers the vast Arctic Ocean is supposed to...


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.95eed5de7e9d
    You asked
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediev...#North_America

  38. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    All I'm just saying is you lefties voted for the carbon tax and now your whining about it.
    No, I fully support the carbon tax.

    Some people are okay with paying for the consequences of their actions.
    Well the consequence of a carbon tax is the destruction of what is left of manufacturing in Canada, and oil and gas capital all going south of the border. With no carbon tax, US manufacturing will be able to produce products at much lower cost due to lower energy inputs. Its fine for the middle class maybe, some wealth reduction, its the working class who are going to suffer most, but I guess you are happy for them to pay for the consequence of your "left" wing governments actions. We don't really have "left" wing governments anymore though - they are UN directed eco-nut governments, the US now has the "left" wing government that is looking to boost working class jobs, not convert them to some imaginary industry that doesn't exist.
    Last edited by moahunter; 19-11-2016 at 11:16 AM.

  39. #239

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    Seems not every expert agrees:


    The other day, I saw two new examples of breathless praise for BC’s carbon tax, and how it has been wonderful for the province economically and environmentally. Here’s the New York Times:

    [T]he most important takeaway for American skeptics is that the policy basically worked as advertised. British Columbia’s economy did not collapse. In fact, the provincial economy grew faster than its neighbors’ even as its greenhouse gas emissions declined.

    It’s a great story, but unfortunately it’s fiction.



    http://behindthenumbers.ca/2016/03/0...cs-carbon-tax/

  40. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Seems not every expert agrees:


    The other day, I saw two new examples of breathless praise for BC’s carbon tax, and how it has been wonderful for the province economically and environmentally. Here’s the New York Times:

    [T]he most important takeaway for American skeptics is that the policy basically worked as advertised. British Columbia’s economy did not collapse. In fact, the provincial economy grew faster than its neighbors’ even as its greenhouse gas emissions declined.

    It’s a great story, but unfortunately it’s fiction.



    http://behindthenumbers.ca/2016/03/0...cs-carbon-tax/
    This blog is right in pointing out that overall GHG emissions in BC did increase but also states that "more than two-thirds of this increase is attributable to the growth of BC’s natural gas industry". The plot I posted previously however is still just as true, fuel consumption did directly decrease as a result of the carbon tax and their overall GHG emissions would have been much greater today had the carbon tax not been implemented. In BC's case it appears that they used the carbon tax as a social licence to expand their natural gas industry and this is the primary reason their overall emissions increases as much as it did. Better regulation of that industry could have prevented this.

  41. #241

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    The most important part of the article as I see it was not the predictable increase ... it was the fact that BC had been on, for some time, a downward trend in both petrochemical use and GHG emissions before the carbon tax.

    Which proves, to me, education and evolution are more effective than taxation and attempts at throwing tax dollars at industries proposing revolution.

    IMO

  42. #242

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    To clarify: per capita GHG emissions in BC was on a downward trend yes, but your source says nothing about petrochemical use (whereas the World Bank source I linked to states this: "From 2000-08 B.C.’s fuel use was actually rising by 1.1 percent/year relative to the rest of Canada; after 2008 it fell by 4 percent/year"). I agree with you that education is a very effective tool, but let's not discount the fact that the carbon tax had a substantial impact on fuel consumption and reduced CO2 emissions substantially from what they would have been otherwise. This fact get's lost when you look at per capita GHG emissions alone as your source does.

  43. #243

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    The evolution you refer to is the result of other nations' thrown money making alternatives relarively affordable, and the temporary high prices also making alternatives relarively affordable. All the tax does is continues to provide low-carbon alternatives with an advantage in the most efficient way.
    There can only be one.

  44. #244

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    I'll agree with the detail of your point stevester... that said if the overall GHG emissions were already on the decline it is a very logical assumption that petro chemical use was a major player in that. After all driving is one of the things that individuals/families can most easily control.

    More over to my point from the article ... GHG emissions in BC were already on the appropriate path without the Tax.

    After all if we were serious about reducing GHG emissions we would simply be banning high carbon emitters ... like airliners/air travel. Which makes sense as it tends to be used by higher income levels and not the overwhelming majority of the population. We would discourage Tourism as it requires carbon intensive forms of transportation. Along with discouraging international trade as it too is carbon intensive and we have no control of the emissions of others.

    Of course I am taking my point to extremes to make a point ... there are many other options than a carbon tax.

    IMO

  45. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    The evolution you refer to is the result of other nations' thrown money making alternatives relarively affordable, and the temporary high prices also making alternatives relarively affordable. All the tax does is continues to provide low-carbon alternatives with an advantage in the most efficient way.
    Off grid is already affordable as an individual if you are willing to accept the limitations. My family will be doing just that this spring when we buy the property we are looking at. I find it funny we the alternatives require intense subsidization where as it was private investment that brought our current energy systems into place. After all there were no government subsidies during the industrial revolution and with vehicles electric was not able to compete on performance, range or convenience with gasoline. Even the modern electrical grid created in the 20s and 30s was private investment and rural co ops that created it.

    IMO

  46. #246

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    What I wonder is what the administrative overhead will be for this "pay more and we'll send you some back, maybe" kind of tax, and the funding programs to annointed green initiatives. 20% of the take?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  47. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Hinderks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    The evolution you refer to is the result of other nations' thrown money making alternatives relarively affordable, and the temporary high prices also making alternatives relarively affordable. All the tax does is continues to provide low-carbon alternatives with an advantage in the most efficient way.
    Off grid is already affordable as an individual if you are willing to accept the limitations. My family will be doing just that this spring when we buy the property we are looking at. I find it funny we the alternatives require intense subsidization where as it was private investment that brought our current energy systems into place. After all there were no government subsidies during the industrial revolution and with vehicles electric was not able to compete on performance, range or convenience with gasoline. Even the modern electrical grid created in the 20s and 30s was private investment and rural co ops that created it.

    IMO
    Edmonton Power started as a private company but it got into trouble and the city took it over.

    A couple interesting articles here:

    http://www.history.alberta.ca/Energy...n-alberta.aspx

    http://www.history.alberta.ca/Energy...a/default.aspx

    I don't know any of the actual history around the industrial revolution (forgot most of the one course I had on it) but I imagine the granting of territories and monopolies likely ensured profits.
    Last edited by KC; 19-11-2016 at 06:37 PM.

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