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Thread: Edmonton is best place for Millennials to get ahead

  1. #101

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    Speaking of dated, two of Canada's six 'hottest clubs' half that long ago (including Canada's hottest) were in Edmonton, according to Billboard:

    Source

    Funny, where's Vancouver?

    (Since then, Billboard has confined the list to the U.S.)
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Speaking of dated, two of Canada's six 'hottest clubs' half that long ago in Edmonton, according to Billboard:

    Source

    Funny, where's Vancouver?
    Yep, Edmonton was right there on the cutting edge of dance culture, right alongside Spokane and Boise ID.

    This half decade old list is based on box office and revenue, it's the kind of places genuine dance music lovers wouldn't have been seen dead in.
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  3. #103

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    ^ Many of the clubs listed are casino anchors, if you weren't illiterate you'd know. Notably, neither of Edmonton's are.

    And yes, it's old, as I already said "dated" and explained that Billboard has since confined their list to the U.S. (And it's only half as dated as noodle's completely unconfirmable anecdote from the Bill Smith era.)



    But again, can't mighty Vancouver even get onto the list if it's that easy?
    Let's make Edmonton better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post



    But again, can't mighty Vancouver even get onto the list if it's that easy?
    We all appreciate that mediocrity is the level to which Edmonton aspires, but why expect other cities to set their bar so low?
    "The only really positive thing one could say about Vancouver is, it’s not the rest of Canada." Oink (britishexpats.com)

  5. #105

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    Oh, and you mean to say Vancouver can't even get onto a list with Boise ID?

    Good point, expat. Good point.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  6. #106

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    So here are some more recent stats, which tell us basically what we already knew:

    Like here among arenas we see 40 year old Rexall Place 3rd among Canadian arenas and 44 in the World for concert tickets, behind only Toronto and Montreal.

    And here for clubs in 2015, Union Hall is ranked 11th in Canada, 179th in the World, while there is nothing from Vancouver even on the list.

    And here for concert theatres, Edmonton's Jubilee is ranked 3rd in Canada and 58th in the World, while Vancouver's QE Theatre was 180th in the World with less than 25% the tickets sold (but at least it made the list, congrats Vanbandoned!)

    What a brilliant scene in Vancouver! Double the population and humiliated in every category!
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  7. #107

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    The Edmonton Event Centre wasn't a club & with Starlite they had a monopoly on their niches for a decade in a city of over a million people.

    It's no surprise that given our dearth of decent venues in town the two that are most used will have high attendance & receipts vs Vancouver where there's more than two places to see a band with 500-5000 other people.

    Also, hilarious that anyone would call the EEC a good live music venue. It's literally the worst place I've ever seen a band. The fact it was so successful is a dig on the scene in Edmonton. Nobody would have played there if they could have played literally anywhere else. Terrible, terrible, terrible.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  8. #108

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    ^ nice completely subjective counters.
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  9. #109

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    Back to topic: here a horror story from the other hot market, Toronto. It is not that all millennials don't like owning home. It is that they can't put their feet on the first step of the ladder, even if they want to. Add to the details of the below story, the fact that many young adults these days have debt over-burden from student loans too, making it all but impossible to even think about house ownership.

    Globe & Mail, 19-May-2016
    Bidding war blues: 'Are you kidding me?'

    It’s time to be honest with millennials about their chances of owning a house in their city of choice.

    You may be shut out of the market, even if you’re hard-working and fortunate enough to have help from your parents. It’s happening to Jessica Kushner, a 27-year-old who works as a subway train operator for the Toronto Transit Commission and lives at home. She wants to buy a house in the city with her fiancé, but hasn’t been able to keep up with rising prices: ....

    Ms. Kushner is new in her job and on a track that will see her earnings rise steadily over the next two years or so. She estimates she’ll be earning at an annual rate of $60,000 to $70,000 by the end of this year (her fiancé earns a similar amount), with the variation accounted for by the number of hours she works. There’s also help from her parents, which isn’t unusual in the Toronto market these days.

    And yet, the market doesn’t seem to have room for her. “It’s depressing,” she says. “I’m working with this idea in my head that you work hard, pay your taxes and you get to live here [in Toronto].”

    The two houses she and her fiancé tried for are in a midtown neighbourhood on the west side of the city. The first one was listed at $589,000 and sold for $730,000, while the second was listed at $749,000 and sold for $840,000. “By no means are these the houses I dreamed of living in,” she said. “They’re small, they need work, they have tiny lots. Only a few years ago, they were selling for less than half-a-million dollars.”...

    Ms. Kushner’s living at home and says she saves almost all her paycheques after the cost of running her car. “I don’t pay rent and I barely have time to spend money. I work almost 60 hours a week.”

    That’s part of the reason she’s not keen on renting – she feels she has sacrificed for a house and is ready to get on with the next phase of her life. She’s also not big on condos, but is starting to think about them. Her flexibility ends at long commutes from way outside the city, as some of her colleagues at work do. “If I have to live at home forever, so be it,” she said....

  10. #110

    Default Edmonton is best place for Milennials to get ahead

    At some point this speculative escalation in housing prices is going to end very badly for a lot of people. The cracks are starting to show.

    One crack is that obviously it has already hurt those first time buyers in the age range to buy a house. Ultimately, if the next generation can not afford to buy houses, then who will buy them? The current situation is not sustainable.

    I don't know when or how long everything will take get back to a more sustainable situation or exactly how that will happen. In the meantime, I expect more people in that age range will leave places like Vancouver and Toronto and the growth of these cities will be constrained. This could be a great benefit to cities like Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa that are in the next tier.

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    Or they will simply transition to renting like in all the other globally competitive "mega-cities".

    Perhaps it is time that we end our cultural infatuation with homeownership. It is an investment like any other. In hyper competitive property markets many people that lack a sufficient down payment and income to float a good mortgage rate may be better off investing that income elsewhere.

    That is why I think the primary goal in these places should be pushing additional rental properties to market so that the cost of renting is lower than the total cost of mortgage afforded ownership.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    Or they will simply transition to renting like in all the other globally competitive "mega-cities".
    It is easy to tell others what they should do, or make blanket statements like millennials don't "want" home ownership. Reality, as always, is not black or white.

    Perhaps it is time that we end our cultural infatuation with homeownership. It is an investment like any other.
    Completely disagree. Housing, beside its financial benefits, is also a basic human need. Besides, a house provides utility functions that are hard to represent in financial risk-reward terms. The convenience of not worrying if you/your kids/pets might cause a damage to someone else's property. That unless your income prospects change you don't have to think about finding and moving to a new place every year/few years. The emotional attachment, the memories, you develop growing up in your home/neighborhood. Sure, renting won't kill you, but it is not all financial aspects.

    In hyper competitive property markets many people that lack a sufficient down payment and income to float a good mortgage rate may be better off investing that income elsewhere.

    That is why I think the primary goal in these places should be pushing additional rental properties to market so that the cost of renting is lower than the total cost of mortgage afforded ownership.
    What you miss there is the opportunity cost of capital. Rents, typically (though not always) are above the monthly mortgage costs, as the owner is recouping the cost of his/her investment. As such, for those who can't afford the down payment, their higher rent payment deprive them of extra savings, and the associate financial gains that compound over the long term. And that's why the article I posted above tells it like it is. Many millennials might never afford a house and the life-style their parents enjoyed.

  13. #113
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    It is also easy to attach your own value-laden baggage onto issues. Homeownership is something that makes north americans feel very emotional, hence why I termed it as our "infatuation".

    There is nothing to suggest that renting can't take place over a long time. People can develop an attachment to their rental home, grow up there. They do it all over the rest of the world.

    My point is that we need to think about renting versus owning as a financial decision, not an emotional or value-laden one. As you suggest, there may very well be a financial incentive to owning in some cases. In others, people could capitalize on their investment far more with other actions such as starting a businesses or making alternative investments.

  14. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerdo View Post
    It is also easy to attach your own value-laden baggage onto issues. Homeownership is something that makes north americans feel very emotional, hence why I termed it as our "infatuation".

    There is nothing to suggest that renting can't take place over a long time. People can develop an attachment to their rental home, grow up there. They do it all over the rest of the world.

    My point is that we need to think about renting versus owning as a financial decision, not an emotional or value-laden one. As you suggest, there may very well be a financial incentive to owning in some cases. In others, people could capitalize on their investment far more with other actions such as starting a businesses or making alternative investments.
    You make some good points but it seems to me that the risk of abandoning aspirations for home ownership would create a caste system of rich landlord owners and poor tenants. Admittedly we risk heading in that direction anyway but to give up on aspiring to a fair and equitable housing market would seem to be entrenching this model in perpetuity.

  15. #115
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    Home ownership has protected people from inflationary pressures on housing. For instance in our case we had a $700 mortgage and if we were renting all this time our rent would likely be about $2,000 a month now.

  16. #116

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    Agreed:

    "A man without land is nobody."
    - Mordecai Richler
    Let's make Edmonton better.

  17. #117

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    This research is not Canadian, but given our broader discussion on home ownership of millennials, I thought the stats can be informative:

    Wall Street Journal, 22-May-2016
    Homeownership Elusive for Young Adults Without College Degrees

    ...Renters ages 18 to 34 years old without student debt will need just over five years of additional savings to afford a 20% down payment for a starter home, defined as the median home at the bottom third of the market, according to research to be released Monday by Apartment List, a rental listing website. In comparison, it takes college grads with student loans about 10 years. For those who haven’t graduated from college, the wait to buy a home swells to nearly 15.5 years...

    ...The report is based on a survey of 31,000 respondents and looks at how much people in each category are currently saving, coupled with how much they have already saved and are likely to receive from friends and family....



    There is one sense in which those without degrees are handily outstripping their college-educated peers: thriftiness. College graduates make about $22,600 more than nongrads, but put only about 10% of that additional income toward savings, instead spending more on rent, dining out and travel.

    In pricey cities, millennials without college degrees face nearly impossible odds being able to save for a home.

    In San Jose, Calif., the second-most expensive city for starter homes after San Francisco, a young adult without a college degree would need to save for 48 years to afford a 20% down payment on a home, according to Apartment List. College grads with student debt would need to save for 15 years and those without debt would need to save for about 4.5 years....

    ...The homeownership rate for households headed by someone under 35 years old fell to 34% in the first quarter of this year, the lowest level since at least 1994, according to U.S. Census data....
    Last edited by FamilyMan; 22-05-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
    Agreed:

    "A man without land is nobody."
    - Mordecai Richler
    Exactly.

    That's why condos are effectively worthless.


  19. #119

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    Apologies for derailing this thread towards what millennials want, but really the advantage of what Edmonton offers, particularly for young adults, can be viewed much better in this context.

    Here a survey of 19,000 21- to 36-year-old in 25 countries by ManpowerGroup:

    The survey

    Commentary from the Financial Times:
    24-May-2016
    Job security is living the millennial dream

    ...
    About 87 per cent said job security was a priority when looking for employment, second only to money (92 per cent) and well ahead of things like “purpose” and “flexibility” with which millennials are supposedly enamoured. Almost two-thirds intend to stay with their current employers for the next few years or longer.

    For all the mythologising about job-hopping millennials, these survey results ring true. For one thing, it is psychologically scarring to come of age during a deep recession...

    ...The job mobility data bear this out. The frequency with which 18 to 29-year-olds in the UK switch employers has dropped by a third since its pre-crisis peak, according to the Resolution Foundation think-tank.

    Meanwhile, those young people who do want to join the “gig economy” or become entrepreneurs face a practical problem that is hard to overcome without the help of wealthy parents.
    The traditional permanent job contract is still the key that unlocks a range of life’s necessities. Without one, you will struggle in many countries to secure a loan, a mortgage, a mobile phone contract or even a room to rent.

    ...Inevitably, this burden of flexibility has fallen mostly on the workforce’s new arrivals, particularly in areas of continental Europe, where rigid laws protect workers already on the inside.

    Even young people who secure permanent roles know that “jobs for life” are a thing of the past. They realise they could be laid off in another crisis and they know technology will disrupt the labour market in unpredictable ways. They also know they will need to work for longer than their parents because pensions will not go as far....

    ...Millennials are not the flighty freedom seekers that mythology would have us believe. When they do quit, it is probably because they want more job security, not less.

  20. #120
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    Things like "purpose" and "flexibility" have risen to the forefront simply because employers are less willing to offer competitive wages, and much less willing to offer job security.

    Most millenials will be facing at least 3-5 years depending on their sector of contract work before getting a "real" (permanent full time employee) position. They will do the same work as the FTO, but for considerably less pay, few benefits, and no job security past the end of the contract.

    That is the new normal. Entire sectors have adopted this practice, and now they compete with each other for employees using fluff like buzzwords about "purpose", or allowing flexible work hours (a no-brainer when most of these jobs can be done remotely anyway), or making their offices feel like a bachelor pad with video games, couches, and snacks.

    Companies aren't doing these things because it is what millenials want the most, they are doing them because they are far cheaper than competing with permanent jobs and competitive wages.

  21. #121

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    Seems like things will become so expensive in Vancouver that it will become like the middle ages where only the rich own property and all of the serfs live in a spare room at their houses. The problem is that the mega rich from other countries are flooding to Vancouver and pushing up the prices. I expect this trend will continue as we continue to buy things made in other countries, reducing our pool of mega rich and increasing the amount of rich business owners from other countries. What will be the end result? A city where only multi millionaires can afford to live In? What does that mean for other Canadian cities and where will those pushed out move to? Only time will tell, but I think that the gap between the rich and the poor will become a physical one.
    Not trying to be political here, I am not saying if this is good or bad, just saying.
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    Wrong thread I know....but just read the Journal article, something about Canadian women rating men from Edmonton as the "best dressed?" Is that a joke? As much I despise Hipsters - is Edmonton the most "Canadian Hipster" city? Like Edmonton is the hipster sister city to the US's Portland, Austin and Nashville?

    Must be a hipster thing, ie, red pants, tight buttoned to the neck long sleeve shirts, suspenders, converse sneakers, whacked out head gear and ridiculous moustaches. In which the latter requires expensive oils, creams and lotions.

  23. #123

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    Edmonton has a very confusing hipster-to-pickup truck ratio.

  24. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Edmonton has a very confusing hipster-to-pickup truck ratio.
    New fusion cruising: Pickupsters





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    Last edited by KC; 09-07-2018 at 10:03 PM.

  25. #125

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    Old man rant.

    I can never understand the hipster pretend getting back to natural theme.


    The original beards and mops of hair were people simply not shaving, not getting hair cuts, and just letting it all grow. Not because it was fashionable but because it was one less thing to worry about, one less expense, and even kept your head and face warmer in these climes. You sheared once in awhile but frugally and without ever getting a new blade or anything like that.


    Now beards are a fashion thing costing 100some bucks month in treatments, styling, hairdo's, expensive products, in an errant return to simple theme. Except, wait, this is NOT frugal.


    Seems like the worst of both worlds. An unnecessary uncomfortable beard and unnecessary expense. All of which our emulated pioneering forefathers would not stop laughing at.


    Oh, and the same people letting their facial hair grow are shaving their underarms, chest, *******, butts and pubes...hopefully not with the same shaving equipment.
    Last edited by Replacement; 09-07-2018 at 11:23 PM.
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  26. #126
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    They do waxing now by an esthetician. Costs a bit.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 09-07-2018 at 11:36 PM.

  27. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Wrong thread I know....but just read the Journal article, something about Canadian women rating men from Edmonton as the "best dressed?" Is that a joke? As much I despise Hipsters - is Edmonton the most "Canadian Hipster" city? Like Edmonton is the hipster sister city to the US's Portland, Austin and Nashville?

    Must be a hipster thing, ie, red pants, tight buttoned to the neck long sleeve shirts, suspenders, converse sneakers, whacked out head gear and ridiculous moustaches. In which the latter requires expensive oils, creams and lotions.
    I'm not sure I know other Canadian cities well enough to say for sure, but there do seem to be a lot of hipsters here and they sure seem to put some effort and $ into their image. It may be exactly the right thread - it actually all makes sense. If you are paying a lot of your money for rent or housing like in Toronto or Vancouver, it doesn't leave as much left over to dress fashionable or maintain an appearance. Edmonton might not be as white collar as some cities, but average earnings are comparable or better than a lot of other places in Canada and our taxes are still lower too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Wrong thread I know....but just read the Journal article, something about Canadian women rating men from Edmonton as the "best dressed?" Is that a joke? As much I despise Hipsters - is Edmonton the most "Canadian Hipster" city? Like Edmonton is the hipster sister city to the US's Portland, Austin and Nashville?

    Must be a hipster thing, ie, red pants, tight buttoned to the neck long sleeve shirts, suspenders, converse sneakers, whacked out head gear and ridiculous moustaches. In which the latter requires expensive oils, creams and lotions.
    I'm not sure I know other Canadian cities well enough to say for sure, but there do seem to be a lot of hipsters here and they sure seem to put some effort and $ into their image. It may be exactly the right thread - it actually all makes sense. If you are paying a lot of your money for rent or housing like in Toronto or Vancouver, it doesn't leave as much left over to dress fashionable or maintain an appearance. Edmonton might not be as white collar as some cities, but average earnings are comparable or better than a lot of other places in Canada and our taxes are still lower too.
    A lot of guys shop at Simons, that also contributes

  29. #129

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    This is all very rich to read.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  30. #130
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    And all very superficial.
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