Yeah, who needs Hardware Grill when you and Noodle still have Denny’s to fill you up.Originally Posted by Drumbones;
Yeah, who needs Hardware Grill when you and Noodle still have Denny’s to fill you up.
If a restaurant that charges $38 for sausage or $25 for a burger can't pay their servers $15/hour without going tits up then that's just too bad.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
When the economy struggles as it has over the last couple of years, some old places close and some new places open.Yeah, who needs Hardware Grill when you and Noodle still have Denny’s to fill you up.
There are a number of interesting new local restaurants and other food options opening and yes Denny's is still there for those that like that too.
Repeat after me, Mr. Doom and Gloom - the sky is not falling, the sky is not falling !!!
I said elsewhere on this thread but in the next election the NDP will win a minority, which is why I think Notley will have another term. I'm thinking 51-55%. Anything can happen of course.
You think so? I would be surprised to see the NDP break 30% of the provincial vote next election.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Its not like they have an expensive chef to pay, and like you say, they can just buy all their ingredients and walmart can't they? Oh well, if places like Artigano collapse, at least there is still Tim Hortons.If a restaurant that charges $38 for sausage or $25 for a burger can't pay their servers $15/hour without going tits up then that's just too bad.
Actually he did. He was very good in any port folio he was given. ( as shown on CBC)But the main thing here, he bettered the WR and the PC together! The ndp had an extremely poor showing. An indication their time will soon be up...thank god!
On the news, one chef was saying his prices will have to go up, paying youngsters a high wage, those living at home rent free, leaves little for really good chefs, so prices go up, less people go in, lay offs occur. The NDP don't get that..I'm not sure they ever will.Its not like they have an expensive chef to pay, and like you say, they can just buy all their ingredients and walmart can't they? Oh well, if places like Artigano collapse, at least there is still Tim Hortons.If a restaurant that charges $38 for sausage or $25 for a burger can't pay their servers $15/hour without going tits up then that's just too bad.
I agree, I think most of Alberta have seen enough of their ideology.
You think so? I would be surprised to see the NDP break 30% of the provincial vote next election.
I didn't say this.
Stop trying to put words in my mouth, you're NEVER right.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
Well this was the riding Kenney hand picked. I don't think he would have picked it, if he did not expect to do well. Remember it was one of the few that stayed with the PC's despite their debacle in the last election. I don't think it is a typical riding, probably more people concerned about the increase in personal taxes for people making over $125,000/yr than benefiting from the increase in the minimum wage in this riding.Actually he did. He was very good in any port folio he was given. ( as shown on CBC)But the main thing here, he bettered the WR and the PC together! The ndp had an extremely poor showing. An indication their time will soon be up...thank god!
Because most of Alberta/c2e voted for her. I voted for Jim. UPC is to Right of Centre for me.I agree, I think most of Alberta have seen enough of their ideology.
You think so? I would be surprised to see the NDP break 30% of the provincial vote next election.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
^^Yeah, by all accounts it is a pretty wealthy riding he ran in. People in those types of ridings are more into their Crate & Barrel rather than Walmart. Of course it was hand picked and the incumbent for it was made the sacrificial lamb. You See Pee's played their hand well on that one. Times gonna tell how this will play out. Should be interesting to see how the Ledge sittings pan out. Kenney fancies himself as some kind of terminator. More like the circus clown in some instances.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
^its not really wealthy, its middle class suburban. Those are the neighborhoods that decide elections. I'd say an equivalent in Edmonton would be Callingwood and the new neighborhoods outside it. Those are also the neighborhoods feeling the most pain at the moment, so many people with young families laid off from salary / good wage positions.
Evergreen would be a good example - average household income of about 105k (so two parents earning 50k odd each - which is your typical Alberta family today):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen,_Calgary
Which is an almost exact match for Glastonbury which also has average household income of about 105k:
https://www.edmonton.ca/residential_...hicProfile.pdf
Last edited by moahunter; 15-12-2017 at 01:58 PM.
Middle class is quite broad, I might say upper middle class. You might not be far off on the comparable in Edmonton, but probably where Calgary differs is more people work in those better paid white collar jobs in the energy sector and when oil dropped from $100/barrel to under $30 they were really hit. Unemployment has come down a lot in Calgary in the last six to nine months, I think by about 2% so there is definitely a recovery starting to happen now, but I am sure it has been a rough ride for some people used to those nice paying jobs in the energy sector.
^Fair enough - in Calgary those 100k families are often a couple with one or two white collar workers, in Edmonton its often someone in a trade or government making good money (say 70k) and someone in service industry making a bit less (say 30k). I think Edmonton is being hit the same way now though, its just a lag, Calgary feels it first. Summerside would be another neighborhood like that.
Last edited by moahunter; 15-12-2017 at 02:04 PM.
It won't be, most of the WR knows that..Because most of Alberta/c2e voted for her. I voted for Jim. UPC is to Right of Centre for me.I agree, I think most of Alberta have seen enough of their ideology.
You think so? I would be surprised to see the NDP break 30% of the provincial vote next election.
http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...rastic-changes
So three ridings in Calgary the NDP lost, heck yes!
^Its brutal for small businesses now:
http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...rastic-changesThe Chamber released a report Thursday that called for governments to stop “layering” new taxes and charges on business. These include everything from the carbon levy to minimum wage, as well as city taxes and fees.
According to the Chamber, all new and increased levies will raise costs for a typical restaurant from $17,641 this year to $60,710 in 2018. Larger companies in transport and delivery sectors will see costs rise nearly $300,000.
Oh I agree, but he didn't just win, he won big time! I'm so anxious to see him in QP, sewer rats on the left might have to worry! So far they have been coasting..jmhoWell this was the riding Kenney hand picked. I don't think he would have picked it, if he did not expect to do well. Remember it was one of the few that stayed with the PC's despite their debacle in the last election. I don't think it is a typical riding, probably more people concerned about the increase in personal taxes for people making over $125,000/yr than benefiting from the increase in the minimum wage in this riding.Actually he did. He was very good in any port folio he was given. ( as shown on CBC)But the main thing here, he bettered the WR and the PC together! The ndp had an extremely poor showing. An indication their time will soon be up...thank god!
Of course it his., Notley and JT sing from the same hymn sheet!
Anyone putting much stock in Kenney's byelection win should remember October 27, 2014 when the PCs under new leader Prentice swept 4 provincial byelections. These byelections took place 6 months - not 18 months - before the general election. The NDP finished in fourth place when the results of the byelections were added together.
https://globalnews.ca/news/1636192/a...r-byelections/
^which was before the man in the mirror comment (or was that MJ), and the Smith move. It imploded pretty fast for Prentice after that.
Last edited by moahunter; 15-12-2017 at 03:49 PM.
I think we know all that, I also know the NDP was a protest vote!
Oh yes, Alberta has some history of protest votes, but that doesn't invalidate the vote. Social credit in 1935 was a protest vote, they then stayed in power for 36 years after that. UFA (United Farmers of Alberta) before was a protest too and they governed for several terms until replaced by Social Credit.I think we know all that, I also know the NDP was a protest vote!
We do occasionally kick the bastards out, as some might put it, but we seem to give them quite a generous opportunity to govern before doing that.
I'll guess we'll see Dave.I for one, cannot wait for 2019..Oh yes, Alberta has some history of protest votes, but that doesn't invalidate the vote. Social credit in 1935 was a protest vote, they then stayed in power for 36 years after that. UFA (United Farmers of Alberta) before was a protest too and they governed for several terms until replaced by Social Credit.I think we know all that, I also know the NDP was a protest vote!
We do occasionally kick the bastards out, as some might put it, but we seem to give them quite a generous opportunity to govern before doing that.
And don’t forget the Liberals and their rule. I love reminding friends that our grandparents voted in the Liberals.I'll guess we'll see Dave.I for one, cannot wait for 2019..Oh yes, Alberta has some history of protest votes, but that doesn't invalidate the vote. Social credit in 1935 was a protest vote, they then stayed in power for 36 years after that. UFA (United Farmers of Alberta) before was a protest too and they governed for several terms until replaced by Social Credit.I think we know all that, I also know the NDP was a protest vote!
We do occasionally kick the bastards out, as some might put it, but we seem to give them quite a generous opportunity to govern before doing that.
Liberal rule in Alberta: 1905 - 1921 !!!
A look at Alberta’s election history since the province was created in 1905 | Globalnews.ca
“Nov. 9, 1905: Lawyer Alexander Rutherford, son of a Scots immigrant farmer, leads the Liberals to a lopsided victory over R.B. Bennett’s Conservatives, taking 22 of 25 legislature seats. Bennett goes on to become prime minister.
March 22, 1909: Liberals sweep the polls, winning 36 of 41 seats, largely due to support from farmers and immigrants. Rutherford, however, gets the boot. Public outrage over a generous contract awarded to a railway to build a line to Fort McMurray forces him to resign in 1910.
April 17, 1913: Liberals choose Alberta Chief Justice Arthur Sifton as premier in a bid to restore public trust. He leads them to their third consecutive victory – winning 39 of 56 seats – and into Prohibition. Women win the right to vote provincially in 1916.
June 7, 1917: Liberals keep their grip on power, winning 34 of 56 seats. Women vote for first time provincially, but must wait two more years for the right to vote federally. The first oil boom in Turner Valley goes bust. Alberta has one of the highest enlistment and casualty rates of the First World War. More than 45,000 head off to fight; more than 5,000 don’t return.
July 18, 1921: Farmers and miners, disenchanted with old-line parties, sweep Liberals from power. The United Farmers of Alberta, ...”
https://globalnews.ca/news/1982338/a...eated-in-1905/
And BTW, Kenny is a relative newcomer to western Canada and a more recent immigrant to Alberta. Don’t believe him or anyone that professes to know what “Albertans’ values” are or have been.
Last edited by KC; 15-12-2017 at 05:35 PM.
I do appreciate the additional history. I never did ask my grandmother who she voted for way back then. I also don't know what the voting age was then, but I believe she would have voted first some time after 1922.And don’t forget the Liberals and their rule. I love reminding friends that our grandparents voted in the Liberals.I'll guess we'll see Dave.I for one, cannot wait for 2019..Oh yes, Alberta has some history of protest votes, but that doesn't invalidate the vote. Social credit in 1935 was a protest vote, they then stayed in power for 36 years after that. UFA (United Farmers of Alberta) before was a protest too and they governed for several terms until replaced by Social Credit.I think we know all that, I also know the NDP was a protest vote!
We do occasionally kick the bastards out, as some might put it, but we seem to give them quite a generous opportunity to govern before doing that.
Liberal rule in Alberta: 1905 - 1921 !!!
And BTW, Kenny is a relative newcomer to western Canada and a more recent immigrant to Alberta. Don’t believe him or anyone that professes to know what “Albertans’ values” are or have been.
A look at Alberta’s election history since the province was created in 1905 | Globalnews.ca
“Nov. 9, 1905: Lawyer Alexander Rutherford, son of a Scots immigrant farmer, leads the Liberals to a lopsided victory over R.B. Bennett’s Conservatives, taking 22 of 25 legislature seats. Bennett goes on to become prime minister.
March 22, 1909: Liberals sweep the polls, winning 36 of 41 seats, largely due to support from farmers and immigrants. Rutherford, however, gets the boot. Public outrage over a generous contract awarded to a railway to build a line to Fort McMurray forces him to resign in 1910.
April 17, 1913: Liberals choose Alberta Chief Justice Arthur Sifton as premier in a bid to restore public trust. He leads them to their third consecutive victory – winning 39 of 56 seats – and into Prohibition. Women win the right to vote provincially in 1916.
June 7, 1917: Liberals keep their grip on power, winning 34 of 56 seats. Women vote for first time provincially, but must wait two more years for the right to vote federally. The first oil boom in Turner Valley goes bust. Alberta has one of the highest enlistment and casualty rates of the First World War. More than 45,000 head off to fight; more than 5,000 don’t return.
July 18, 1921: Farmers and miners, disenchanted with old-line parties, sweep Liberals from power. The United Farmers of Alberta, ...”
https://globalnews.ca/news/1982338/a...eated-in-1905/
Unfortunately for the Liberals (and others), hasn't been good luck for anyone getting a second chance again after they lost an election though. Probably doesn't apply to the UCP as they are a successor to the PC's not the PC's themselves, but one wonders whether this might sort of some how jinx and them they do have several former PC MLA's in their party now - the "Alberta" curse ... ha ha !!
So much for Alberta "always" having been conservative though.
The truth will slowly come out, it seems the real price is much higher, as there are backhanded subsidies to deflate the rate per hour:
http://calgaryherald.com/business/en...annual-subsidy
my dad owns a small business. he is almost 70 and is planning to start working 40 hours a week in January due to the minimum wage increase. He cannot afford to pay rising wages along with everything else going up such as transportation costs. He could raise prices but then he would lose customers. He isnt rich and maybe takes a week at the most of of vacation a year.
He put up all the risk of the business about 15 years ago. I remember some days at the start of opening he was making $40 a day. Yes today he is doing well off, but all his employees are mostly all students who live at home with their parents. So before people classify all business owners as "rich", remember not everyone is the same.
I wish the liberals/NDP knew this. We made an okay living with our business, but I'm glad we sold it when we did. They are making it harder, not easier to start up, and I really don't know why..
Raising costs (through broad based taxes like the Carbon Tax, levies, user fees, regulations, less direct and indirect subsidization, higher minimum wages, etc) hits all businesses, whereas cutting business income taxes only helps profitable businesses. (However all this money circulates, it doesn’t vanish.)I wish the liberals/NDP knew this. We made an okay living with our business, but I'm glad we sold it when we did. They are making it harder, not easier to start up, and I really don't know why..
To boost small business the NDP went the standard route of slashing small business income taxes. That doesn’t help a huge number of small businesses (many can manipulate their expenses and accounts to minimize taxes anyways). Start ups though tend to be money loosers for numbers of years therefore face a tougher uphill climb towards profitability.
So a pro entrepreneurship government would have to take a very different approach than we’ve seen in decades from any government.
Increasing costs can also reduce the absolute number of businesses that are profitable and so that can hit the government receipts but if they are collecting the taxes earlier, there’s less chance for financial engineering to cut revenue. That’s why the GST was a desirable tax - less ability for tax cheats to throw the burden onto everyone else.
Last edited by KC; 16-12-2017 at 08:05 PM.
No they don't. I'm no great fan of Kenney but my guess is the NDP will be down to less than 10 seats in 2019, Liberals and Alberta Party will probably have about the same amount of seats as they do currently. So in 2019 UCP will probably get about 60 seats.
I agree. Even if everything the NDP was implementing was more conservative than what the UCP would do, all NDP actions would still be spun as leftist socialist calamity producing action.No they don't. I'm no great fan of Kenney but my guess is the NDP will be down to less than 10 seats in 2019, Liberals and Alberta Party will probably have about the same amount of seats as they do currently. So in 2019 UCP will probably get about 60 seats.
Albertan's voted for what Notley portrayed as a new socially progressive but fiscally moderate NDP. If the NDP had come in, and done just one socialist economic idea, maybe just the higher wages without the carbon tax and personal tax hikes, and had at least tried to do something about the out of control spending (a path that left wing premiers like Stelmac and Redford irresponsibly started us down), then the economy would be rebounding now (esp jobs), and a second term would have been likely. But they didn't, like children finally getting into a cookie jar that had been kept from them for decades, Notley let her team dip too deeply into the left wing / socialist / green playbook (to the cheers of university elites with no real world experience). It will be a very long time before Alberta votes left again, this will go down with other Canadian NDP failures in economically successful provinces, as to why you don't vote for them. I'm sure left wingers will blame it all on oil prices, but the PC's managed to stay in power through far worse oil price crashes than what we just had for more than 40 years.
http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi...4-6fab5c7a6121The NDP’s social-justice agenda is noble but it’s the icing on the cake. The problem is we don’t have much cake. The economy is experiencing a jobless recovery where companies are doing better but are afraid to hire back staff. Unemployment is still around 7.3 per cent in the province (compared to six per cent in Saskatchewan and 4.8 per cent in B.C.).
That’s why Kenney keeps hammering at the NDP on economic issues. And why the hammering is so effective.
Some observers wonder if the NDP should now slow down its agenda, maybe roll back its carbon tax or cancel hikes in the minimum wage.
That’s unlikely to happen. The NDP would be risking a backlash from its own supporters if it began reversing course.
Last edited by moahunter; 17-12-2017 at 09:58 AM. Reason: made more parsimonious
I agree. Even if everything the NDP was implementing was more conservative than what the UCP would do, all NDP actions would still be spun as leftist socialist calamity producing action.No they don't. I'm no great fan of Kenney but my guess is the NDP will be down to less than 10 seats in 2019, Liberals and Alberta Party will probably have about the same amount of seats as they do currently. So in 2019 UCP will probably get about 60 seats.
Each party does that, the NDP take the UCP and spin it to the worst it can be..I do think the NDP are socialists, and if that's what you want fine, I don't..
It remains to be seen what the rest of AB wants though..
Last edited by H.L.; 17-12-2017 at 08:31 PM.
Question about the carbon tax. This is applied to all residential and commercial users of natural gas in the province, we get to pay $1.xx per gigajoule for the privilege of consuming our own natural resources. Does any sort of carbon tax get applied to the gas we export ?
If not, this is the most stupidest idea ever.
It's a bit like saying all of North America will increased labour protection, environmental protection, emissions control , meanwhile all we are simply doing is exporting the problem to another part of the world. Just like what we do with all of the made in China stuff. Then it's sent on a boat burning bunker oil, processed in another jurisdiction, shipped on another boat and sent back to us.
If pollution ignores boundaries, what are we really achieving ? nothing... We're simply hurting our on business.
Yes, I know we have to protect the environment, and be an example etc, etc.. I get that. but when other jurisdictions do not play by the same rules then economics takes over, it will become cheaper to export the raw material and let the manufacturing take place someplace else. It's a bit like water in a lake, water will also flows to the lowest level. If another jurisdiction does not apply the same standards we should be applying a carbon tax on value of the processed goods.
Now the real irony is that if we choose to abolish the carbon tax, the feds will simply apply their own, and they will reap the benefits ? It's demoralizing, how many of our businesses are struggling, and you know where it hurts... I was at the gym/ pool a few days ago, they are starting to lower the temperature in the pool/ showers to cut costs. Here we are, blessed with an abundance of resources , but yet some outside forces are making us feel guilty for having these resources, and our own government is choosing to punish us for having these resources.
Natural gas, coal, hydrocarbons are all NATURAL. Perhaps the fact that they were locked under the ground was a fluke or mistake. Perhaps we should be considering their intent and freeing the trapped carbon into the atmosphere ?? Are we so superior that we presume to know what nature intended ???
Sunday rant over.
^^^ Saskatchewan's slightly lower unemployment rate compared to Alberta's does not even begin to tell the full story.
In the past year, Alberta has gained 46,900 full-time jobs compared to a loss of 5,000 full-time jobs in Saskatchewan. In the same time period, the number of unemployed Albertans has dropped by 43,700 compared to a more modest 5,800 drop in Saskatchewan. The only reason the unemployment rate in Saskatchewan isn't higher is because 11,400 people left the labour force there last year (in other words gave up looking for work).
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti.../t003a-eng.htm
Export items are usually taxed in the jurisdiction of the end user. Just like when I order something from Ontario, I only have to pay GST, and not the more expensive HST. Same thing when buying things online from the states.
Asbestos, mercury, arsenic and radioactive materials are also natural.
Inter Pipeline $3.5 Billion Dollar Investment
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ticle37364102/
How are the NDP doing now?
That's really big news for the industrial sector, which is pretty desperate for good news these days.
Super! Crossed fingers for the Pembina project as well.
Cue the usual right wing spin mob.
Nisi Dominus Frustra
Why does it need a $200m government subsidy? I thought the left hated payouts for big oil. The project probably would have gone without the handout (reduced royalty take), NDP loves to hand out cash that could have been spent building 600 affordable homes.Cue the usual right wing spin mob.
Yep, best to just sell our raw resources to our American good neighbours and then buy back the finished product....
^giving money for a project that doesn't need it (its economic or its not), is exactly why we have the sort of deficit we have right now - but carry on cheering for this big oil subsidy. money that could have made a difference on the streets doing what government is designed to do, provide social services and similar.
If your pals hadn't sold almost all the oil 'topsoil' (and getting rid of Stelmach) for a pittance relying on $100+ oil prices to last forever without any plans I would perhaps listen to your crocodile tears arguments about "social services."
King Ralph's drunken antics on a famous evening summed up the Tory attitude towards social services quite nicely thank you.
Nisi Dominus Frustra
Thousands of construction jobs - I am sure the right wing will be appalled. An increasing chance the economy will recover before the election, people may start laughing at their continued over the top doom and gloom - can't have that.Cue the usual right wing spin mob.
Sure, why not give Shell, and BP and... $200m as well, why not reward anyone who invests in Alberta for profit with a $200M government gift? Its not like we are borrowing to do that, is it (hold on, re the deficit). This project would have gone ahead without the $200M hand out - its pissing our taxes down the drain needlessly.Thousands of construction jobs - I am sure the right wing will be appalled. An increasing chance the economy will recover before the election, people may start laughing at their continued over the top doom and gloom - can't have that.Cue the usual right wing spin mob.
Well as I see it, we could give them a tax cut with no commitment to create any jobs here and just "hope" that happens or give the same amount with the conditions jobs are created? Which do you think is better?Sure, why not give Shell, and BP and... $200m as well, why not reward anyone who invests in Alberta for profit with a $200M government gift? Its not like we are borrowing to do that, is it (hold on, re the deficit). This project would have gone ahead without the $200M hand out - its pissing our taxes down the drain needlessly.Thousands of construction jobs - I am sure the right wing will be appalled. An increasing chance the economy will recover before the election, people may start laughing at their continued over the top doom and gloom - can't have that.Cue the usual right wing spin mob.
^what's better is to tax every company the same, not to give handouts to whatever flavor of the month favorite thing the government decides makes the most sense. This is no different from the Bombardier hand outs (well, at least its not a private controlled company, but even so).
It’s always been a mixed bag in Alberta. We had the Natural Gas act to prevent burning natural gas and so encourage exports and petrochemical development. In the 1970s Atlantic Richfield left Syncrude and the Alberta Government bought into it.
Too late. Your pals that got trounced in the last Provincial Election already gave them billions with little regard to the future.
So you'd be ok with a lower tax rate to companies that created no jobs?
^what are you saying, that the tax rate should change based on how many people a company employs? That's pretty silly, as different industries have very different labor versus capital needs. Its also silly that this plastics plant is getting $200m of funding (via royalty reduction), when plenty of software and pharmaceutical companies, which could also employ many people, around the UofA get squat.
Last edited by moahunter; 19-12-2017 at 01:55 PM.
Nope. I'm saying it would be more efficient to target incentives to those that create jobs.
^its more efficient to not pick winners - it makes no sense to tax some companies more to give hand outs to companies that can't compete without the help, you are just penalizing winners at the expense of losers, it always ends badly with corporations that can't survive without the endless hand outs (e.g. Bombardier). In this case, there is a precedent now, anyone with a profitable project for the Heartland is going to expect a big government hand out to make it even more profitable.
Last edited by moahunter; 19-12-2017 at 02:03 PM.
The term you use is "winners" which implies a company that is successful in generating profits for its shareholders, so if a company that laid of 500 of 1,000 employees to increase profits would be considered a winner by you. However, I don't think the 500 employees laid off would feel like winners.
I think it makes sense to support and expand value added processing here in Alberta as opposed to strip and ship. Yes, we win by doing more of the processing here and getting the benefit of the added value, but that is not like buying a lottery ticket and hoping it is a winner. We are not talking about building a cell phone manufacturing plant, we are talking a logical extension of our existing resource industries.
^this plant would have happened without the government hand out, our oil and gas industries don't need hand outs - Alberta government is just making the project more profitable at the expense of everyone in the province.
Would you care to share evidence, if any, you have that this would have happened without the government involvement?
^show the evidence that it wouldn't have. Per the publicity materials there is a massive competitive advantage due to the cost of feedstock.
And Moa ignores the fact that WalMart COULD pay their workers more but they don't Instead, they lobby for a big tax cut for the Walton family and the other big shareholders of the company. But, according to Moa, it's the way it should work because then and only then will the Waltons trickle down their additional wealth to the people that actually make the stores work.Whereas you and Noodle, like the NDP, seem ok that every business is going to end up a giant multinational (which the NDP masters feel they can unionize unlike small local businesses), because those are the only ones that will benefit from these policies that hammer local and family concerns. But sure, cheer on while you watch local restaurants and convenience stores disappear at the expense of McDonalds, Walmart and similar (with their distributions centers in Cowtown), which have the resources and buying power to implement self serve technology / manage all the red tape - I hope that's what you want because its what you are going to get from these policies.
^I'm pointing out the obvious that increasing regulatory costs, and ramping up wages, is going to hit the businesses that are the least profitable / most marginal, at the expense of the businesses that are the most profitable. Walmart and similar, couldn't care less if the minimum wage increases, as it just drives their competition out of business. The NDP is fine with that as well, because small businesses are almost never unionized, whereas the unions have a hope at Walmart and similar.
Earlier you wrote about penalizing winners, now you are going on about hitting the least profitable/most marginal - that doesn't seem to be the same thing. Which is it? Or perhaps I should instead ask, exactly which companies are being penalized or hit by the creation of this new facility?
I am ok with having what might seem to you an economic or ideological debate, but these are 13,000 new jobs for Albertans and I am not against that, are you?
Walmart does just fine driving the competition out of business by themselves. They've driven more "mom and pop" stores out of business than a minimum wage increase would. And as far as your comment that " unions have a hope at Walmart and similar". i guess you've forgotten (or are deliberately choosing not to mention) the fact that when WalMart workers tried to unionize, Walmart closed the stores and claimed that it was because the stores were unprofitable and nothing, not a thing, to do with the union vote.
Quebec ruling against Wal-Mart Canada closing unionized store hollow victory for labour
As victories go, a Supreme Court of Canada ruling Friday that found Wal-Mart Canada Corp. violated Quebec’s labour code almost a decade ago when it closed a unionized store in Jonquiere is a pretty hollow one.
Since the world’s biggest retailer entered Canada 20 years ago, labour unions have not been able to organize Wal-Mart Canada’s employees in a sustainable way, despite multiple attempts.
http://business.financialpost.com/ne...pt-court-rules
And not just in Canada
They're so bad that they actually encourage food donations to their fellow employees.Union: Walmart shut 5 stores over labor activism
The United Food and Commercial Workers International Union has filed a claim with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) that Walmart's (WMT) recent closing of five stores was done in retaliation for a history of labor activism at one of the locations, rather than because of the plumbing problems the retailer cited, The New York Times reports. The union is asking the government agency for an injunction that would require Walmart to rehire the 2,200 workers who were temporarily laid off or affected by the closings.
Since Walmart closed the five stores this month, citing plumbing problems as the cause, suspicions were aroused, especially because one shuttered location was the site of the first U.S. strike at a Walmart store. One employee at that store, located in Pico Rivera, California, told CBS Los Angeles that some co-workers believed the company was targeting employees who had spoken out against Walmart's labor practices.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-w...abor-activism/
But by all means, continue to call for tax cuts for the 1% while calling people on minimum wage the greedy ones.Walmart Store Holding Thanksgiving Charity Food Drive -- For Its Own Employees!
Maybe, at long last, the blinders will come off when these deniers are forced to come to grips with the fact that Walmart associates are paid so poorly that a store in Canton, Ohio, located in the northeastern part of the state, now holds an annual, Thanksgiving drive to collect canned foods for fellow Walmart employees in need.
Walmart spokesperson, Kory Lundberg, thinks this is all just the most wonderful thing—bragging that the drive to collect holiday food for fellow employees shows just how much Walmart employees care about one another.
Do you imagine the spokesperson has yet to realize just how remarkable her statement is?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung.../#13a6b3032ee5
Last edited by kkozoriz; 19-12-2017 at 03:30 PM.
Provincial Governments bringing in minimum wages of $15 are relieving their government and the federal government of subsidising low income families.
In regards to wages the poverty line for singles is $22,133.00 per year. There are certain means tests for people who want to access government subsidies but if they earn over a certain amount they don't qualify. A lot of big and small businesses that hire workers do not give them full time hours as benefits cost them money. 32 hours and under a week is considered part time.
A person say working 32 hour week for $15 an hour a will make $480 for that week. $480 x 52 = $24,960 per year. This is over the poverty line and probably a single person will not qualify for any type of subsidies. Even with taxes taken off they would probably get the minimum of subsidies. Most of us could not be single and live on that type of money. Well we could but there would not be much left after paying rent, food, etc. $15 an hour absolves the levels of government from paying to much in subsidies. They don't care that a person has to scrimp and live a meagre existence on a pittance. Throw kids into the mix and it's a whole new level of hurt. Implementing $15 a hour wage is probably helping the governments bottom line more than it's helping people.
Gone............................and very quickly forgotten may I add.
That is a noteworthy point. Some number of employees that are laid off will draw on UI/EI and then welfare or take early pensions/payouts. All reflect a drop in taxable earnings to the governments. Then there’s pressure on society to pay for various measures to enable re-employment like retraining, direct subsidies to businesses etc.The term you use is "winners" which implies a company that is successful in generating profits for its shareholders, so if a company that laid of 500 of 1,000 employees to increase profits would be considered a winner by you. However, I don't think the 500 employees laid off would feel like winners.
I think it makes sense to support and expand value added processing here in Alberta as opposed to strip and ship. Yes, we win by doing more of the processing here and getting the benefit of the added value, but that is not like buying a lottery ticket and hoping it is a winner. We are not talking about building a cell phone manufacturing plant, we are talking a logical extension of our existing resource industries.
So a business offloads some costs onto society when it pursues increased profits. This may be just how it has to be but we know companies game the EI system.
Additionally I’ve said a few times that for lack of government interference to slow development in boom times leads companies funded by easy money to expand and attract a lot of new workers and their families to the province. A labour intensive company doesn’t pay for the added pressure on other taxpayers to pay for new roads, new schools, new hospitals, etc. Then when the boom turns to bust the company simply lays off staff and even more costs fall on the taxpayer. Additionally, boom times drive up costs for those not participating in the boom and it dillutes their claim on provincially earned mineral rights.
Lastly, commodities are notoriously volatile. Value added processing would stabilize revenues somewhat. Oil companies regularly try to do the very same thing when they realize that the volatility will sink them, are at least end the career of the CEO.
Last edited by KC; 19-12-2017 at 05:50 PM.
The subsidies aren't "backhanded", considering they're a foundation principle to the REP.
Keep on showing how ridiculously & intentionally partisan & ignorant you are on this issue, moa.
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
Actually if employees are laid off, they get a severance package first, then its ei and then welfare/Alberta works. I was working for Xentel for 12 years here in Edmonton and was at the top of the food chain vacation pay out wise. When Xentel folded late 2012, I got a 16 week severance package, paid at $500/week. I hadn't drawn ei because at the time the economy was good and a colleague had a market research job for me. I was double dipping there for awhileThat is a noteworthy point. Some number of employees that are laid off will draw on UI/EI and then welfare or take early pensions/payouts. All reflect a drop in taxable earnings to the governments. Then there’s pressure on society to pay for various measures to enable re-employment like retraining, direct subsidies to businesses etc.The term you use is "winners" which implies a company that is successful in generating profits for its shareholders, so if a company that laid of 500 of 1,000 employees to increase profits would be considered a winner by you. However, I don't think the 500 employees laid off would feel like winners.
I think it makes sense to support and expand value added processing here in Alberta as opposed to strip and ship. Yes, we win by doing more of the processing here and getting the benefit of the added value, but that is not like buying a lottery ticket and hoping it is a winner. We are not talking about building a cell phone manufacturing plant, we are talking a logical extension of our existing resource industries.
So a business offloads some costs onto society when it pursues increased profits. This may be just how it has to be but we know companies game the EI system.
Additionally I’ve said a few times that for lack of government interference to slow development in boom times leads companies funded by easy money to expand and attract a lot of new workers and their families to the province. A labour intensive company doesn’t pay for the added pressure on other taxpayers to pay for new roads, new schools, new hospitals, etc. Then when the boom turns to bust the company simply lays off staff and even more costs fall on the taxpayer. Additionally, boom times drive up costs for those not participating in the boom and it dillutes their claim on provincially earned mineral rights.
Lastly, commodities are notoriously volatile. Value added processing would stabilize revenues somewhat. Oil companies regularly try to do the very same thing when they realize that the volatility will sink them, are at least end the career of the CEO.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
its not called Welfare/Social services anymore, its called Alberta Works or income supplement.
Mom said I should not talk to cretins!
Crude language at Alberta gas station over province's carbon tax
Got to hand it to Spruce Grove gas station for speaking out for Albertan's:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...-tax-1.4472050
Saskatoon-based Federated Co-operatives Ltd., which owns the Tempo brand and licenses it to independent business owners, says is does not condone the message and asked the owner to remove it.
It has since been replaced with a new message: "NDP carbon tax hurts us all."
Some customers who fuelled up at the gas station before the profanity "F**K NDP/Trudeau" was taken down said they understand the motivation behind the message, but don't agree with the wording.
Good for them! Its hurting lots of small businesses. The carbon bs tax, the wage hike..nails in a coffin!
http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn...imum-wage-hike
Why can't the lefties see the obvious?
Partisan carbon-tax debate is a New Year’s tradition Alberta can do without
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...medium=twitter
But for the average household, the 50-per-cent increase adds up to less than $10 a month in extra fuel costs. And while it's true that business transport and heating costs will increase, leading to higher consumer prices across the board, this effect is also small. My own estimates, using a standard tax-policy model from Statistics Canada, suggest an incremental price increase of about 0.1 per cent due to the carbon-tax increase.All in, the average Alberta household's annual carbon costs will rise about $150, to about $450 from the full $30-a-tonne tax. This isn't trivial, to be sure, but it's roughly equivalent to the cost of import tariffs (which few of us realize we're paying, and even fewer protest).Two-thirds of Alberta households will receive in 2018 a transfer ranging from $300 for a single individual to $540 for a couple with two children. Is this enough to offset carbon-tax costs? For most households that need it, yes. I estimate 70 per cent of households earning less than $60,000 a year will have total carbon costs below $300 a year, and more than 80 per cent will receive transfers larger than their carbon costs.Estimates vary, but credible ones from the government and private-sector analysts find a $30-a-tonne carbon tax may reduce annual GDP growth by around 0.05 per cent. To say this jeopardizes the recovery is a stretch.
Good points. The severances will potentially increase business expenses in the year of downsizing and thus reduce taxes that otherwise would be owing to the government.Actually if employees are laid off, they get a severance package first, then its ei and then welfare/Alberta works. I was working for Xentel for 12 years here in Edmonton and was at the top of the food chain vacation pay out wise. When Xentel folded late 2012, I got a 16 week severance package, paid at $500/week. I hadn't drawn ei because at the time the economy was good and a colleague had a market research job for me. I was double dipping there for awhileThat is a noteworthy point. Some number of employees that are laid off will draw on UI/EI and then welfare or take early pensions/payouts. All reflect a drop in taxable earnings to the governments. Then there’s pressure on society to pay for various measures to enable re-employment like retraining, direct subsidies to businesses etc.The term you use is "winners" which implies a company that is successful in generating profits for its shareholders, so if a company that laid of 500 of 1,000 employees to increase profits would be considered a winner by you. However, I don't think the 500 employees laid off would feel like winners.
I think it makes sense to support and expand value added processing here in Alberta as opposed to strip and ship. Yes, we win by doing more of the processing here and getting the benefit of the added value, but that is not like buying a lottery ticket and hoping it is a winner. We are not talking about building a cell phone manufacturing plant, we are talking a logical extension of our existing resource industries.
So a business offloads some costs onto society when it pursues increased profits. This may be just how it has to be but we know companies game the EI system.
Additionally I’ve said a few times that for lack of government interference to slow development in boom times leads companies funded by easy money to expand and attract a lot of new workers and their families to the province. A labour intensive company doesn’t pay for the added pressure on other taxpayers to pay for new roads, new schools, new hospitals, etc. Then when the boom turns to bust the company simply lays off staff and even more costs fall on the taxpayer. Additionally, boom times drive up costs for those not participating in the boom and it dillutes their claim on provincially earned mineral rights.
Lastly, commodities are notoriously volatile. Value added processing would stabilize revenues somewhat. Oil companies regularly try to do the very same thing when they realize that the volatility will sink them, are at least end the career of the CEO.
So a free market economy subject to boom bust swings in commodity prices further exaggerates volatility through such swings in labour force numbers.
Ironically, when royalties etc are under review the private sector proponents jump up and down saying; this is horrible we need stability and predictability...” but those same proponents of stability and predictability want to deny it for government despite government’s largely inflexible, core service requirements, unionized and negotiated labour costs, etc.
Repeat after me: privatize the gains, socialize the losses.
Last edited by KC; 04-01-2018 at 10:59 AM.
Wage freeze for nurses for the next 2 years:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ment-1.4477907
@Shannon Phillips, Steak tonight. Yummy!!
A staffer used her twitter account LOL
Alberta premier’s special assistant to pay back erroneous hotel expense claims
Records show Kahlon’s stay at the hotel lasted nine nights for a total of $3425.40, including taxes. Hers was the priciest of the folios from the trip.
Hmm, and here I thought the NDP weren't pigs at the trough!
^They have to spend those "savings" re the Nurse pay "freeze".
The NDP posted a tweet yesterday (later deleted it and apologized) for taking a dig at Stephen Mandel. The NDP mocked him for putting Calgary's cancer treatment center on hold (when he was health minister), when Stephen's daughter just recently passed away due to cancer.
Not a very tactful thing to do on their part: http://edmontonjournal.com/news/poli...ide-down-photo
Let me guess, it was a staffer..they are getting cocky and worried at the same time..
^There is not the remotest connection between Mandel's decision to kibosh the Calgary Cancer Hospital in the lead up to the 2015 provincial election and his daughter's death years later.
I didn't even know Mandel had a daughter who recently died of cancer. I asked my wife and she didn't know either.
That said, since some people were trying to make an issue of it by connecting these unrelated events, the prudent thing was to delete the tweet and apologize.
I know Thomas took his ball and went home, but the Owl had another update on this: http://mailchi.mp/e9880f68b99f/the-o...e?e=9dd16627aeSo it's almost like ATB is psychic and this morning's Owl addresses this: http://mailchi.mp/9627be5762d4/the-o...y?e=9dd16627aeSorry Marcel but as I rarely engage here now I haven't been chasing links. Matter of fact with my new position I am pretty much getting my news from the above sources and not cross referencing or following my old news feeds. If I had more than the local MSM listed above I would be glad to provide. That said those reports have been over the last 6 weeks AIR.
Can you provide an actual source for that? That's a pretty strong claim ("all time record") and not one that I recall having seen in major media outlets or in ATB's The Owl notes. And I also recall seeing that in the first half of 2017 business and personal bankruptcies had already started to decline. For example: http://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/alberta-sees-first-drop-in-bankruptcies-in-more-than-a-year
T
So personal bankruptcies in this recession in absolute terms are well below where they were in 2009. Population growth since then isn't enough to skew the numbers too significantly, if you were to want to compare it on a per capita basis. As far as how it compares to the early 80's, I have no idea, but I suspect it was much worse back then than either 2009-10 or 2015-16. Although I freely admit that is strictly a gut feeling, and not based upon any data.
So I ask again, what is your source for your claim?
The 6 month moving average is still just over 400 bankruptcies a month, while it peaked at over 600 during the 2009 recession. So I still remain mystified as to where he was seeing this "ALL TIME HIGH" commentary in the news media, because it's not based on anything I've seen. It is unfortunate that the level is remaining elevated, however.
Apparently Brad Wall has given up on his little kerfuffle too and it gets better - people are moving to Alberta from Saskatchewan again.I know Thomas took his ball and went home, but the Owl had another update on this: http://mailchi.mp/e9880f68b99f/the-o...e?e=9dd16627aeSo it's almost like ATB is psychic and this morning's Owl addresses this: http://mailchi.mp/9627be5762d4/the-o...y?e=9dd16627aeSorry Marcel but as I rarely engage here now I haven't been chasing links. Matter of fact with my new position I am pretty much getting my news from the above sources and not cross referencing or following my old news feeds. If I had more than the local MSM listed above I would be glad to provide. That said those reports have been over the last 6 weeks AIR.
Can you provide an actual source for that? That's a pretty strong claim ("all time record") and not one that I recall having seen in major media outlets or in ATB's The Owl notes. And I also recall seeing that in the first half of 2017 business and personal bankruptcies had already started to decline. For example: http://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/alberta-sees-first-drop-in-bankruptcies-in-more-than-a-year
T
So personal bankruptcies in this recession in absolute terms are well below where they were in 2009. Population growth since then isn't enough to skew the numbers too significantly, if you were to want to compare it on a per capita basis. As far as how it compares to the early 80's, I have no idea, but I suspect it was much worse back then than either 2009-10 or 2015-16. Although I freely admit that is strictly a gut feeling, and not based upon any data.
So I ask again, what is your source for your claim?
The 6 month moving average is still just over 400 bankruptcies a month, while it peaked at over 600 during the 2009 recession. So I still remain mystified as to where he was seeing this "ALL TIME HIGH" commentary in the news media, because it's not based on anything I've seen. It is unfortunate that the level is remaining elevated, however.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...ment-1.4498621
But subsiding is a trade barrier, so wasn't Brad right.Notleys minister was talking this morning, and completely talked out of both sides of his mouth
LOL, one family 5 kids move here, gee I wonder why..and that's news? omg
A trade barrier is when Saskatchewan refuses to allow out of province beer to sold in their province. They don’t need a tariff they just don’t allow it.
“Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan
Yup. Alberta's pretty much the only province that has an open market for beer. The rest just simply pick and choose what they'll allow in or not. Somehow that makes us the bad guys. Too bad, I liked a lot of Paddock Wood's brews.
I stated the media sources at the time, not a link.I know Thomas took his ball and went home, but the Owl had another update on this: http://mailchi.mp/e9880f68b99f/the-o...e?e=9dd16627aeSo it's almost like ATB is psychic and this morning's Owl addresses this: http://mailchi.mp/9627be5762d4/the-o...y?e=9dd16627aeSorry Marcel but as I rarely engage here now I haven't been chasing links. Matter of fact with my new position I am pretty much getting my news from the above sources and not cross referencing or following my old news feeds. If I had more than the local MSM listed above I would be glad to provide. That said those reports have been over the last 6 weeks AIR.
Can you provide an actual source for that? That's a pretty strong claim ("all time record") and not one that I recall having seen in major media outlets or in ATB's The Owl notes. And I also recall seeing that in the first half of 2017 business and personal bankruptcies had already started to decline. For example: http://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/alberta-sees-first-drop-in-bankruptcies-in-more-than-a-year
T
So personal bankruptcies in this recession in absolute terms are well below where they were in 2009. Population growth since then isn't enough to skew the numbers too significantly, if you were to want to compare it on a per capita basis. As far as how it compares to the early 80's, I have no idea, but I suspect it was much worse back then than either 2009-10 or 2015-16. Although I freely admit that is strictly a gut feeling, and not based upon any data.
So I ask again, what is your source for your claim?
The 6 month moving average is still just over 400 bankruptcies a month, while it peaked at over 600 during the 2009 recession. So I still remain mystified as to where he was seeing this "ALL TIME HIGH" commentary in the news media, because it's not based on anything I've seen. It is unfortunate that the level is remaining elevated, however.
That said recently had coffee with one of the reporters on the file and was advised the reporting came from Statscan ... so I checked.
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/bsf-os...g/br03141.html
The statscan reporting will show that in 2016 the insolvency rate in Alberta at 4.0 compared to 1.5 in 1987 which is as far back as statscan reports (end of historical record available as reported by statscan in the eyes of the person I was speaking with).
In addition this disclaimer in the link:
In 2015, Statistics Canada changed the way it counts business units. This resulted in an increase of 1 million Canadian businesses in 2015 and has lowered the business insolvency rate.
While 1987 is not 1983 it was still heavy into the economic damage and reflective of the time and explains the media reporting I heard.
Have a nice day
No tariff on Alberta license plates either under their previous plan, so I guess Wall gets marks for consistency, but not so much for free trade.
As someone who was here at the time, I am thinking that most the businesses that went broke during that tough time probably did so before 1987. The ones that were left by then were mostly the survivors.I stated the media sources at the time, not a link.I know Thomas took his ball and went home, but the Owl had another update on this: http://mailchi.mp/e9880f68b99f/the-o...e?e=9dd16627aeSo it's almost like ATB is psychic and this morning's Owl addresses this: http://mailchi.mp/9627be5762d4/the-o...y?e=9dd16627aeSorry Marcel but as I rarely engage here now I haven't been chasing links. Matter of fact with my new position I am pretty much getting my news from the above sources and not cross referencing or following my old news feeds. If I had more than the local MSM listed above I would be glad to provide. That said those reports have been over the last 6 weeks AIR.
Can you provide an actual source for that? That's a pretty strong claim ("all time record") and not one that I recall having seen in major media outlets or in ATB's The Owl notes. And I also recall seeing that in the first half of 2017 business and personal bankruptcies had already started to decline. For example: http://edmontonjournal.com/business/local-business/alberta-sees-first-drop-in-bankruptcies-in-more-than-a-year
T
So personal bankruptcies in this recession in absolute terms are well below where they were in 2009. Population growth since then isn't enough to skew the numbers too significantly, if you were to want to compare it on a per capita basis. As far as how it compares to the early 80's, I have no idea, but I suspect it was much worse back then than either 2009-10 or 2015-16. Although I freely admit that is strictly a gut feeling, and not based upon any data.
So I ask again, what is your source for your claim?
The 6 month moving average is still just over 400 bankruptcies a month, while it peaked at over 600 during the 2009 recession. So I still remain mystified as to where he was seeing this "ALL TIME HIGH" commentary in the news media, because it's not based on anything I've seen. It is unfortunate that the level is remaining elevated, however.
That said recently had coffee with one of the reporters on the file and was advised the reporting came from Statscan ... so I checked.
https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/bsf-os...g/br03141.html
The statscan reporting will show that in 2016 the insolvency rate in Alberta at 4.0 compared to 1.5 in 1987 which is as far back as statscan reports (end of historical record available as reported by statscan in the eyes of the person I was speaking with).
In addition this disclaimer in the link:
In 2015, Statistics Canada changed the way it counts business units. This resulted in an increase of 1 million Canadian businesses in 2015 and has lowered the business insolvency rate.
While 1987 is not 1983 it was still heavy into the economic damage and reflective of the time and explains the media reporting I heard.
Have a nice day
Given the stats I posted, the 80's recession is inconsequential to the specific point raised: that bankruptcies and insolvencies are or were at all time highs recently. They have not even reached 2009 levels. Not even close, really. Maybe they were higher in the early 80's. Maybe they were lower. In either case, the original claim is false and unfounded.
Facts matter.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3985707/m...t-restaurants/
Notley, helping small businesses...
This decline in November from October was 1.3%, which is not very big. I am sure there is some natural variation month to month based on the weather, the number of weekends that happen to fall in the month, or even the number of actual days in the month, etc... I think it would be premature based on one month's data only and the small size of the change to blame it on the minimum wage change.
Well, we'll see how popular she is, oh over 50% ( over 50%) said the UCP would get in if the election were held this week. NDP, 27%...☺
Hahaha. Quoting Mainstreet poll numbers like they're actually valid. That's a funny joke!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...tion-1.4441063
Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!
Haha! It will right this time, I don't even need a poll. All those government workers in cushy jobs in Edmonton, look out! Stop posting on work time! *
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...erta-1.4502657
New labour rules pay people to 'sit on the couch,' says Alberta businessman
Yes, we will see. Wasn't that the same polling firm that got egg on their face by predicting the Calgary mayors election wrong?
Mainstreet admits 'big polling failures' after predicting Nenshi would lose Calgary election
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/mainstreet-calgary-poll-nenshi-bill-smith-failures-1.4360145
Predictions for election over a year in the future are probably even less certain.
60% of those polled were male and 2/3 were over 50. As if millennials are going to answer a land line from a number they don’t recognize.
“Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan
There have been online polls, and she's always bringing up the rear! Good luck though..
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