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Thread: The Needle - Allegations and Closure

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    Default The Needle - Allegations and Closure

    Needle Vinyl Tavern sees bookings cancel as it reviews sexual harassment allegations
    https://globalnews.ca/news/3871585/n...t-allegations/
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Fruit Loop Society of Alberta.

    Classic.

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    The Needle is CLOSED INDEFINITELY.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    Probably the right move, but a very difficult decision.
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    https://www.facebook.com/theneedleyeg/

    The Needle will be closed until further notice. Due to threats made to multiple staff, we do not feel we can safely operate the venue at the present time.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Yeah, sure, not like they operated safely before.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    I’m not sure what to think about this whole situation and the hundreds like it we have heard about over the last little while. I want people who have been assaulted or hurt in some inappropriate way to receive justice... but using social media to receive it just doesn’t sit right with me. I’m all for taking a dump on people who have been charged and found guilty or those wieners who get off on technicalities but I don’t feel good about the domino effect this has had on people who relied on that place to make a living, for their entertainment and recreation, a stage to perform on, etc. Why couldn’t douchebag co-owner sell his investment to someone else and continue operating, with new management and strict HR policies etc? I want these losers to pay, but the emotionally derived justice victims have found on social media leaves a lot of room for mistakes; new unintented victims like the employees of the establishment in question; the reputations of these unintended victims who were not involved with these terrible events and I’m sure countless other uncontrollable consequences. Once you start, it can’t be stopped. When the general public reacts by threatening the safety of employees and patrons in attendance because the victims chose social media and the realm of public opinion to satisfy whatever they hoped would be satisfied, further lines and laws are crossed and we’re still waiting for systematic changes to occur to ensure justice for the true victims of these predators. I need logical and rational conversation, not emotional and uncontrolled social media courts to make up my mind. I almost think temporary courts with special resources to provide a voice to victims should be instituted before this gets further out of hand. The story that the system doesn’t work for victims can be changed.
    Last edited by etownboarder; 22-11-2017 at 02:19 AM.

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    The Needle was on the news last night due to sexual harassment allegations i believe.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I’m not sure what to think about this whole situation and the hundreds like it we have heard about over the last little while. I want people who have been assaulted or hurt in some inappropriate way to receive justice... but using social media to receive it just doesn’t sit right with me. I’m all for taking a dump on people who have been charged and found guilty or those wieners who get off on technicalities but I don’t feel good about the domino effect this has had on people who relied on that place to make a living, for their entertainment and recreation, a stage to perform on, etc. Why couldn’t douchebag co-owner sell his investment to someone else and continue operating, with new management and strict HR policies etc? I want these losers to pay, but the emotionally derived justice victims have found on social media leaves a lot of room for mistakes; new unintented victims like the employees of the establishment in question; the reputations of these unintended victims who were not involved with these terrible events and I’m sure countless other uncontrollable consequences. Once you start, it can’t be stopped. When the general public reacts by threatening the safety of employees and patrons in attendance because the victims chose social media and the realm of public opinion to satisfy whatever they hoped would be satisfied, further lines and laws are crossed and we’re still waiting for systematic changes to occur to ensure justice for the true victims of these predators. I need logical and rational conversation, not emotional and uncontrolled social media courts to make up my mind. I almost think temporary courts with special resources to provide a voice to victims should be instituted before this gets further out of hand. The story that the system doesn’t work for victims can be changed.
    She went to the owners (all of them), and they basically ignored her. Also, the staff brought up concerns about the hiring of someone they knew had harassed staff before. Nothing was done. I can only assume that the other owners are currently trying to buy out the one accused, but that can't be done overnight. Shutting the doors while they figure it out is the smart move to keep them from bleeding money daily considering shows are being cancelled and moved to avoid them.

    I feel for the rest of the staff, performers, and patrons, but the issues need to be addressed and this is the most logical way to go about that.

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    "Justice" is swift in the age of social media. Hope this gets sorted for all parties, in particular the artists who need stages to play.

    The few times I've been to The Needle my impression is a good portion of the crowd is not a regular, live-music-going group. Here's hoping folk seek out live music elsewhere at alternate downtown venues.

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    While I hold very little sympathy for the ownership group of The Needle (they apparently ignored Brittany's pleas for help), I too am uncomfortable with the way this played out on social media. A lot of assumptions are being made and potentially innocent people are having their reputations damaged, perhaps irreparably. This is vigilantism on steroids...

    That being said, it was somewhat inevitable that it would happen this way, since she was the social media manager for The Needle. If someone feels like they are given no recourse, they will use whatever tools are immediately available to defend themselves. By far the most potent weapon available to Brittany was social media. The owners really should have seen that one coming.

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    The court of public opinion is ruthless and swift. Maybe we'll some good come from this by way of people being less shite to each other.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    She seemed very careful not to name names though. The only reputations that are being damaged are the ones of those who already had a reputation to begin with. Well them and the person who came forward, whose character is now being assassinated online for nothing more than being a victim and coming forward with it (which, if I'm not mistaken, is a good thing).

    The owner who went on TV this morning and who issued an apology on behalf of the club basically shot himself in the foot with his words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    She seemed very careful not to name names though. The only reputations that are being damaged are the ones of those who already had a reputation to begin with. Well them and the person who came forward, whose character is now being assassinated online for nothing more than being a victim and coming forward with it (which, if I'm not mistaken, is a good thing).

    The owner who went on TV this morning and who issued an apology on behalf of the club basically shot himself in the foot with his words.
    The initial statement by the victim is one thing, where it is very good that she came forward with her claims. It takes a lot of courage for her to stand up and refuse to bow to those in positions of power over her.

    The fact that those claims were made on social media, however, allows them to morph based on the vagaries of those who distort the message while amplifying it. The story takes on a life of its own. That is what concerns me... Not sure what could have been done differently though. This is the age we now live in, where accusations can lead to a guilty verdict within minutes, without due process... scary times...

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    ^^Alex.L, curious as to whether you've ever worked in a supervisory position?

    It's not only about saying things in a way that is not defamatory to personal reputations, it's also about the reputational damage to the organization you believe is in the wrong.

    I always advise those seeking future employment that while seeking redress through the news media (or these days on social media) can feel gratifying in the short-term, beware of the longer-term damage to your own reputation. When hiring a prospective employee, googling applicants is standard procedure. Nothing raises red flags more than employees who have gone public with disputes with former employers. Frankly supervisors don't have time to try to figure out who was in the right and who was in the wrong in these disputes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^^Alex.L, curious as to whether you've ever worked in a supervisory position?

    It's not only about saying things in a way that is not defamatory to personal reputations, it's also about the reputational damage to the organization you believe is in the wrong.

    I always advise those seeking future employment that while seeking redress through the news media (or these days on social media) can feel gratifying in the short-term, beware of the longer-term damage to your own reputation. When hiring a prospective employee, googling applicants is standard procedure. Nothing raises red flags more than employees who have gone public with disputes with former employers. Frankly supervisors don't have time to try to figure out who was in the right and who was in the wrong in these disputes.
    Oh I completely agree that anybody should be very careful when taking anything to the media. What you say and accuse people of doesn't go away. Not only that, but your message can very easily be edited to make you come off differently than you intend to. I guess the question is whether or not we (as a society) would rather have allegations public, or have the victim(s) just keep quiet about it if there is no evidence that would make it a police matter.

    Also, in your hypothetical, the person potentially hiring a person who previously went to the media is the one in the wrong. I'm not saying they should hire them point blank, but if we're going to punish people for speaking up we need to be aware of the environment we're creating.

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    ^Be that as it may, a workplace is not a democracy nor is it a court of law. Especially when it comes to hiring decisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^Be that as it may, a workplace is not a democracy nor is it a court of law. Especially when it comes to hiring decisions.
    We're losing the point here though. Whether or not she is going to be hired somewhere else is not my concern. She has/had to be aware of this when she decided to take the action she did.

    Notice how this conversation has shifted from the accused to the accuser? That's a problem. Blaming the person who brought the allegations forward for the bar closing and people losing jobs is the wrong response. If there was nothing there, or if it was a baseless accusation do you think they'd be shutting down and going into damage control mode? Of course not. The owners know something is rotten in their circle, and that is where any blame/outrage/shame should be directed. Not at the person or people who were victims.

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    Agreed. They acknowledge that she was groped and that they didn't handle it appropriately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post


    Fruit Loop Society of Alberta.

    Classic.
    I find the name of that org callous and dangerous and my snowflake sensitivity is alarmed that anybody would choose a name so stereotypically divisive of LBJQTXWZ zhe people.. The only thing worse could be Eskimos Fruit Loop Society. Or Yeg Froot Loops. or something like that. I will spend the rest of the day in hiding at the consideration of the vile hate that exists within our society..won't someone make me safe..
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-11-2017 at 01:51 PM.
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    And their non-apology didn't help. Goodwill is worth more than the money you bring in selling beer, and they just pizzed it all down the drain. All of their names will be tainted for at least some amount of time.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I’m not sure what to think about this whole situation and the hundreds like it we have heard about over the last little while. I want people who have been assaulted or hurt in some inappropriate way to receive justice... but using social media to receive it just doesn’t sit right with me. I’m all for taking a dump on people who have been charged and found guilty or those wieners who get off on technicalities but I don’t feel good about the domino effect this has had on people who relied on that place to make a living, for their entertainment and recreation, a stage to perform on, etc. Why couldn’t douchebag co-owner sell his investment to someone else and continue operating, with new management and strict HR policies etc? I want these losers to pay, but the emotionally derived justice victims have found on social media leaves a lot of room for mistakes; new unintented victims like the employees of the establishment in question; the reputations of these unintended victims who were not involved with these terrible events and I’m sure countless other uncontrollable consequences. Once you start, it can’t be stopped. When the general public reacts by threatening the safety of employees and patrons in attendance because the victims chose social media and the realm of public opinion to satisfy whatever they hoped would be satisfied, further lines and laws are crossed and we’re still waiting for systematic changes to occur to ensure justice for the true victims of these predators. I need logical and rational conversation, not emotional and uncontrolled social media courts to make up my mind. I almost think temporary courts with special resources to provide a voice to victims should be instituted before this gets further out of hand. The story that the system doesn’t work for victims can be changed.
    She went to the owners (all of them), and they basically ignored her. Also, the staff brought up concerns about the hiring of someone they knew had harassed staff before. Nothing was done. I can only assume that the other owners are currently trying to buy out the one accused, but that can't be done overnight. Shutting the doors while they figure it out is the smart move to keep them from bleeding money daily considering shows are being cancelled and moved to avoid them.

    I feel for the rest of the staff, performers, and patrons, but the issues need to be addressed and this is the most logical way to go about that.
    WE don't know that this is much more than gossip, hearsay, and slander. Whether that be the establishment or the alleged abuse or the new hire. What we do know is taking things to press like this is largely reckless and will only tarnish all involved including the complainant who would might have a harder time finding jobs after this. Theres a lot of allegations here and I wonder how many are wellfounded.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Reputation means a lot. I mean, look at the vitriol that was spewed on the forums regarding the Urban Sparq sports bar proposal, while other proprietors get enthusiastic thumbs up despite the similarities.
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    An alternate take, not so charming this one;

    http://www.gigcity.ca/2017/11/21/the...e-damage-done/

    “I want them to fail.”

    “I read his apology and I didn’t ******* respond – because **** him,” she says.

    “I ******* loved this job

    I loved every person that worked there – except for the damned owner.”

    This is far too rampant and I’m ******* tired of it.”




    I dunno. Sounds like she has some issues too. I'm not stating that she does, just wondering.
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-11-2017 at 02:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    I’m not sure what to think about this whole situation and the hundreds like it we have heard about over the last little while. I want people who have been assaulted or hurt in some inappropriate way to receive justice... but using social media to receive it just doesn’t sit right with me. I’m all for taking a dump on people who have been charged and found guilty or those wieners who get off on technicalities but I don’t feel good about the domino effect this has had on people who relied on that place to make a living, for their entertainment and recreation, a stage to perform on, etc. Why couldn’t douchebag co-owner sell his investment to someone else and continue operating, with new management and strict HR policies etc? I want these losers to pay, but the emotionally derived justice victims have found on social media leaves a lot of room for mistakes; new unintented victims like the employees of the establishment in question; the reputations of these unintended victims who were not involved with these terrible events and I’m sure countless other uncontrollable consequences. Once you start, it can’t be stopped. When the general public reacts by threatening the safety of employees and patrons in attendance because the victims chose social media and the realm of public opinion to satisfy whatever they hoped would be satisfied, further lines and laws are crossed and we’re still waiting for systematic changes to occur to ensure justice for the true victims of these predators. I need logical and rational conversation, not emotional and uncontrolled social media courts to make up my mind. I almost think temporary courts with special resources to provide a voice to victims should be instituted before this gets further out of hand. The story that the system doesn’t work for victims can be changed.
    She went to the owners (all of them), and they basically ignored her. Also, the staff brought up concerns about the hiring of someone they knew had harassed staff before. Nothing was done. I can only assume that the other owners are currently trying to buy out the one accused, but that can't be done overnight. Shutting the doors while they figure it out is the smart move to keep them from bleeding money daily considering shows are being cancelled and moved to avoid them.

    I feel for the rest of the staff, performers, and patrons, but the issues need to be addressed and this is the most logical way to go about that.
    WE don't know that this is much more than gossip, hearsay, and slander. Whether that be the establishment or the alleged abuse or the new hire. What we do know is taking things to press like this is largely reckless and will only tarnish all involved including the complainant who would might have a harder time finding jobs after this. Theres a lot of allegations here and I wonder how many are wellfounded.
    They acknowledged it publicly, then said that they're sorry it wasn't dealt with to the satisfaction of the complainant. That makes it a bit more than hearsay. As for the reputation thing, that was discussed on the last page and I'm not going to do it again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    An alternate take, not so charming this one;

    http://www.gigcity.ca/2017/11/21/the...e-damage-done/

    “I want them to fail.”

    “I read his apology and I didn’t ******* respond – because **** him,” she says.

    “I ******* loved this job

    I loved every person that worked there – except for the damned owner.”

    This is far too rampant and I’m ******* tired of it.”




    I dunno. Sounds like she has some issues too. I'm not stating that, just wondering.
    Maybe her issue is that she was groped, lodged a complaint with the other owners and was basically ignored. I'd be angry too. Again we're shifting focus away from the person who deserves the criticism (and potentially charges), and onto the person who brought it to our attention. Call it victim blaming, shooting the messenger, whatever. This is not the discussion we should be having.

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    Nobody gets to define the discussion "we should be having" Its agenda based to suggest theres only one view, and only one discussion. This will almost certainly be heard before the courts.

    Further there is not clear agreement on all allegations. The extent of victimization at this point, has not been established well beyond the level of first person hearsay. I could be missing some background having said that.

    Its interesting as well of course that any innocent coworkers have lost their jobs over this closure. Some of whom were present at alleged gropings and allegedly do not agree with, and did not share similar concern re the alleged incident(s). I am aware that Britany has attempted to find options for coworkers, good for her, but her actions harmed and involved more than herself and her own reaction. She shut down the business and all employees employment within a month of Christmas which was probably not the only action that would have resulted in the environment being "safe". Indeed when overtures were made to involve Sexual assault inservice and/or intervention she basically said "**** them" to that offering. Didn't sound like she was interested as much in reconciling the problem utilizing all possible avenues.

    just saying
    Last edited by Replacement; 22-11-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    just victim blaming
    Fixed that for ya.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Nobody gets to define the discussion "we should be having" Its agenda based to suggest theres only one view, and only one discussion. This will almost certainly be heard before the courts.

    Its interesting as well of course that any innocent coworkers have lost their jobs over this closure. Some of whom were present at alleged gropings and allegedly do not agree with, and did not share similar concern re the alleged incident(s). I am aware that Britany has attempted to find options for coworkers, good for her, but her actions harmed and involved more than herself and her own reaction. She shut down the business and all employees employment within a month of Christmas which was probably not the only action that would have resulted in the environment being "safe". Indeed when overtures were made to involve Sexual assault inservice and/or intervention she basically said "**** them" to that offering. Didn't sound like she was interested as much in reconciling the problem utilizing all possible avenues.

    just saying
    Yeah she should have just put up with the sexual assault till after Christmas. Because capitalism. /s

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    just victim blaming
    Fixed that for ya.
    Yep.

    Clearly the correct action to take would be to continue working in a poisonous, abusive, harrassment-friendly environment.

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    lol here come the PC SJW police. Not even going to humor further response on that behalf. We'll see how this plays out.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    lol here come the PC SJW police. Not even going to humor further response on that behalf. We'll see how this plays out.
    I find that incredibly hard to believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    lol here come the PC SJW police. Not even going to humor further response on that behalf. We'll see how this plays out.
    Rather be "PC SJW police" than a victim-blaming, excuse-shoveling regressive like yourself.
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    Though I'll admit that I'm not surprised we're getting victim blaming from the guy who tried to blame everyone else for his speeding & parking tickets this year...
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    lol here come the PC SJW police. Not even going to humor further response on that behalf. We'll see how this plays out.
    I find that incredibly hard to believe.
    So do I, heh, but its hard to have discussion here at the best of times. Complex issues, forget it.

    I will point this out again. Overtures were made by the establishment that are agreed upon, had occurred including involvement of Sexual Assault inservice/intervention. Also the alleged abusive owner had not had contact with this employer (or possibly others) since March so it seems something significant occurred to rectify in that regard as well further to the individuals "safety" The only alleged contact since March had been when one of the owners showed up to a meeting WITH the ownership. With I would surmise was further attempt to rectify in some way and maybe even further hear concrns.

    So I wonder if this was the only possible action.

    The ramifications here are onerous. Have any assault accusation and just close your premise with little alternative. The portents of business ownership is getting worse all the time I suspect.

    carry on
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    lol here come the PC SJW police. Not even going to humor further response on that behalf. We'll see how this plays out.
    Rather be "PC SJW police" than a victim-blaming, excuse-shoveling regressive like yourself.
    Flattery will get you nowhere. Those are token terms of affection coming from you.

    I'd rather see all sides looked at at this point in the proceeding in a matter that will almost certainly be before the courts. If that's regressive, so be it.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    It sounds like they did the bare minimum to attempt to rectify the situation, but then planned to hire someone who is apparently known in the industry as having harassed staff at other bars. That looks like it was the straw that broke the camel's back. They thought they were past it, and reverted back to the same old garbage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    It sounds like they did the bare minimum to attempt to rectify the situation, but then planned to hire someone who is apparently known in the industry as having harassed staff at other bars. That looks like it was the straw that broke the camel's back. They thought they were past it, and reverted back to the same old garbage.
    Thanks Alex, that's a reasonable take that actually resembles discussion. But even within that its supposition that they "reverted back to the same old garbage" and its also supposition that the new hire, whoever that be, is some kind of confirmed sexual predator. Who knows. It is largely hearsay presently and why there is legal recourse in these matters. As there should be. This won't likely end in the court of public opinion. I think that's something we can agree on.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Could a moderator please split this into a "Needle Vinyl Tavern Closes" thread? There are some flashpoint issues here not pertaining to "Live Music Venues in Edmonton"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    It sounds like they did the bare minimum to attempt to rectify the situation, but then planned to hire someone who is apparently known in the industry as having harassed staff at other bars. That looks like it was the straw that broke the camel's back. They thought they were past it, and reverted back to the same old garbage.
    Thanks Alex, that's a reasonable take that actually resembles discussion. But even within that its supposition that they "reverted back to the same old garbage" and its also supposition that the new hire, whoever that be, is some kind of confirmed sexual predator. Who knows. It is largely hearsay presently and why there is legal recourse in these matters. As there should be. This won't likely end in the court of public opinion. I think that's something we can agree on.
    Difficult to go to the police without proof. There is a lot of speculation here, but the needle's owners have not done themselves any favours so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Difficult to go to the police without proof. There is a lot of speculation here, but the needle's owners have not done themselves any favours so far.
    The courts and the police are often poor solutions because these things are hard to prove. And instead, as pointed out above, the victims often are the ones who have trouble finding employment later or even keeping their job. Easier to fire the person than deal with an issue. Not being convicted in court doesn't mean someone didn't do the thing they were accused of.

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    Even with proof there's a huge amount of victim-blaming that goes on.

    "She was asking for it. I mean, look at what she was wearing! It's not my fault she can't take a little joke. I meant it as a compliment!"

    And so on, and so forth.

    Having known people who've been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted & having gone with them to the police to file statements, the institutionalized victim blaming is endemic in law enforcement.
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    ^Also very true. Good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Difficult to go to the police without proof. There is a lot of speculation here, but the needle's owners have not done themselves any favours so far.
    The courts and the police are often poor solutions because these things are hard to prove. And instead, as pointed out above, the victims often are the ones who have trouble finding employment later or even keeping their job. Easier to fire the person than deal with an issue. Not being convicted in court doesn't mean someone didn't do the thing they were accused of.
    Exactly. That's why I can't wrap my head around the argument that this shouldn't have been aired on social media. Look at the world today. Social media is the only place that these stories break these days. Of course there are questions about ethics, accuracy, etc. and those should be discussed to suss out whether or not the allegations are legitimate. The owners acknowledged it, and thus we need to stop asking if it's legitimate. It is. They know it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Even with proof there's a huge amount of victim-blaming that goes on.

    "She was asking for it. I mean, look at what she was wearing! It's not my fault she can't take a little joke. I meant it as a compliment!"

    And so on, and so forth.

    Having known people who've been sexually harassed or sexually assaulted & having gone with them to the police to file statements, the institutionalized victim blaming is endemic in law enforcement.
    Sure it is, and ftr I agree with that statement and sentiment as well. Although professionally speaking I have found writing down badge numbers, names and reporting supervisors helps to rectify any resistance almost immediately. An approach I highly recommend.
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    Notably, Mark Davis is playing Garage Band Saturday at the Cask and Barrel this weekend. Free, afternoon show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Difficult to go to the police without proof. There is a lot of speculation here, but the needle's owners have not done themselves any favours so far.
    The courts and the police are often poor solutions because these things are hard to prove. And instead, as pointed out above, the victims often are the ones who have trouble finding employment later or even keeping their job. Easier to fire the person than deal with an issue. Not being convicted in court doesn't mean someone didn't do the thing they were accused of.
    Exactly. That's why I can't wrap my head around the argument that this shouldn't have been aired on social media. Look at the world today. Social media is the only place that these stories break these days. Of course there are questions about ethics, accuracy, etc. and those should be discussed to suss out whether or not the allegations are legitimate. The owners acknowledged it, and thus we need to stop asking if it's legitimate. It is. They know it.
    Social media allegation has become a brutal court of public opinion and with a lot more lives wrecked one way or the other through such things as shaming, slander, false or inaccurate accusation and/or its been an avenue to collude to subvert justice, testimony, and distort accurate depiction of events. Or even of perpetration of Direct physical violence, assault, and theats of life to alleged perpetrators of any kind. Social media recrimination is largely abhorrent. As it is here.

    Ghomeshi being an example of course, when all things are laundered, it being harder to depict who the victims are in all cases and who arguably suffered most. Not making any comparison, just citing its best to leave summary accusation for what it is, source, first person accusation, largely hearsay at this point. Who's to say as well that others are not traumatized/impacted through any of this, the other owners, any other employees, anybody losing some livelihood through the closure etc. Victim doesn't inherently stop at complainant, there could be several victims here.

    Again we'll see what happens. I'm interested in hearing more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Exactly. That's why I can't wrap my head around the argument that this shouldn't have been aired on social media. Look at the world today. Social media is the only place that these stories break these days.
    Ill-considered use of social media is also a leading reason why people are fired or fail to be hired these days.

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    Looks like the stage at UofA Student Union Building has hosted singer songwriters all week for noon hour sets. Brooke Woods tomorrow and Rebecca Lappa Friday.

    https://www.facebook.com/pg/SUBstageUofA/events/

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Exactly. That's why I can't wrap my head around the argument that this shouldn't have been aired on social media. Look at the world today. Social media is the only place that these stories break these days.
    Ill-considered use of social media is also a leading reason why people are fired or fail to be hired these days.
    And that's their business.

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    You know what? She's allowed to say whatever the f--k she wants on her social media. The press that picked it up went and corroborated the story to at least make sure she wasn't pulling it out of her butt. The non-apology from the owner all but confirms the allegations. If it was not true, they'd have said that, and others would be standing up for the business. She didn't shut it down, she just told her story. Does the court of public opinion have too much sway? Yeah, sure. But you know, there's thousands and thousands of other businesses operating in Edmonton without a problem because they don't have people running around grabbing girls by the crotch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Looks like the stage at UofA Student Union Building has hosted singer songwriters all week for noon hour sets. Brooke Woods tomorrow and Rebecca Lappa Friday.

    https://www.facebook.com/pg/SUBstageUofA/events/
    Interesting. Looks like it happens on a fairly regular basis.

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    CTV News had a story tonight where two more employees stepped forward about their experiences being sexually harassed at the Needle.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    I haven't been to Sideliners Pub in a thousand years but with The Rault Brothers there this Thursday I may have to mosey over. Apparently Sideliners is trying to work up Tuesday's - free music, free pool. Kimberley MacGregor next Tuesday and Benjamin Williams the following. Both are quality acts.

    Conflicted though - I haven't seen the reno's at Sewing Machine Factory (the pics look damn cool) and they have a good line-up Thursday as well.

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    I wonder how many more local establishments are going to be in the news for sexual harassment.

    "Wage gender parity isn't going my way, I'm going to claim sexual harassment and shut this place down. Either through out of court settlement or drag the establishments name through the mud."

    Hey isn't that blackmail?

    Just saying.....
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    Anyone know if MacDougall United Church will be hosting their Wed. Noon Hour Christmas Concerts this December? They are always worth checking out and a great way of getting into the spirit of the season.

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    I have a friend and his wife play bells there. I'll ask unless you find out sooner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I wonder how many more local establishments are going to be in the news for sexual harassment.

    "Wage gender parity isn't going my way, I'm going to claim sexual harassment and shut this place down. Either through out of court settlement or drag the establishments name through the mud."

    Hey isn't that blackmail?

    Just saying.....
    Women have wage parity. They don't make less in the same roles. The myth has been debunked about a million times. The issue is that less women work in higher paying positions, for varying reasons, mostly related to the culture of those positions and being taken out of the job market for child rearing.
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    That was one scenario. In any case bashing a establishment because of sexual harassment should be a Police issue. Now The Needle is closed and people are out of work, because of these gold diggers

    I don't go out to these places but I support The Needle staying open.

    Did this gold digger care that innocent employees are now out of a job over the holidays?

    Word: Polygraph!
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    Wait, someone who doesn't appreciate sexual harassment is immediately a gold-digger & your solution is a pseudoscientific test that's inadmissible in court?

    Have you checked your blood sugar recently? You seem to have a bad case of beetusbrain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    That was one scenario. In any case bashing a establishment because of sexual harassment should be a Police issue. Now The Needle is closed and people are out of work, because of these gold diggers

    I don't go out to these places but I support The Needle staying open.

    Did this gold digger care that innocent employees are now out of a job over the holidays?

    Word: Polygraph!
    I do believe that connect2edmonton has hit peak misogyny for the day. Take a rest.

    From what I've heard from others in the hospitality industry, the specific owner being accused of harassment is a real piece of work and his reputation is well known. It is indeed a shame as it's a great room and was good for the street. I don't know that the current ownership will be able to recover from this, even if they've booted the one guy in particular, given that they handled the situation so poorly. Hopefully it changes hands quickly and comes back better.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 23-11-2017 at 03:10 PM.

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    ^ Woa, slow down there. I'm hardly misogynistic. Not every women is out to claim sexual harassment.


    This kind of activity is not just limited to the hospitality industry. This should have been a Police issue but because allegations like this are so in the news lately, some people feel they need their 15 minutes of fame. I call these women gold diggers because imo that's what they are. If they handled these allegations though normal Police channels, then my opinion of them would have been different and people today might still be employed.
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    Unbelievable.

    It's in the news lately, and that has empowered people (not just these women) to come forward because finally there are consequences and people are listening. The more people come forward with these stories, the less it will happen.

    Nobody is in this for 15 minutes of fame, and if you think they are then your cynicism is astounding. Who the hell would want to be "famous" for being groped by some unnamed *******? I mean really. It's not like it's some multi-million dollar lawsuit. She quit and wanted to expose the guy and the establishment as a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Nobody is in this for 15 minutes of fame, and if you think they are then your cynicism is astounding.
    It's not cynicism, it's straight up, 200-proof, unadulterated sexist ignorance, with a chaser of misogyny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Nobody is in this for 15 minutes of fame, and if you think they are then your cynicism is astounding.
    It's not cynicism, it's straight up, 200-proof, unadulterated sexist ignorance, with a chaser of misogyny.
    I was trying to be nice for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo
    Not every women is out to claim sexual harassment.


    Right. But the ones who do are gold diggers. Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo
    I call these women gold diggers because imo that's what they are.


    Which makes you a misogynist. Glad we could clear that up.

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    ^ Hold on their Sparky, if these allegations went through regular Police channels. No problem, but because they were dragged out in social media, yeah "gold diggers."

    I'm a married man and a IPM in my Masonic lodge. You don't get to be at my station/level by being misogynistic.

    However in this aspect, I'd agree with you. I am bent with misogynistic attitudes. That doesn't mean I condone sexual harassment or gender wage parity. Nor do i hate women. I married one.

    i wonder how many of these cases would fall apart under a Polygraph test.

    (i use the phrase "Sparky" in this as a term of endearment btw)
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    Nothing quite like bragging about being a high level member in a supposedly secret and males-only society to defend your 1950's view of sexual harassment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Nobody is in this for 15 minutes of fame, and if you think they are then your cynicism is astounding.
    It's not cynicism, it's straight up, 200-proof, unadulterated sexist ignorance, with a chaser of misogyny.
    Maybe I come from a different age then most of you, and that could be my fatal flaw. I used to work at Xentel here in the city. Most of you wouldn't know what that was.
    it was for me a great place to work I got a pay cheque every week for the last 12 years. There was a lot of people hitting on everyone. I got hit on by black guys, If that were the case today Xentel would have been closed years ago. The box at Xentel never made a statement about sexual harassment etc, and I'd never hit on anyone in the work place. I did once and I married her

    I'm not sure if the Needle was a pick up bar or whatever. The only bar I've been too in the last 5 years was Buds at Londonderry. Maybe The Needle was a pick up bar. Back in my day most places were.

    I'd like to make this clear to those that care. I don't hate women or am a total misogynist. In this maybe because that seems to be on the news almost every night. Its getting to the point that a man (or woman) cant even seek a glance at somebody on the LRT and have somebody come out and lay a claim of "harassment." Yeesh, this whole topic makes me ill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Nothing quite like bragging about being a high level member in a supposedly secret and males-only society to defend your 1950's view of sexual harassment.
    Its not a bragg.

    You must have been to a lot of Spa lady's groups. I wonder what goes on behind those closed doors?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Nothing quite like bragging about being a high level member in a supposedly secret and males-only society to defend your 1950's view of sexual harassment.
    And i never sd i defend sexual harassment. These are allegations.

    #Polygraph
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    I wish the consequences in circumstances like this were as black and white as the issue. For those that carry on that type of behavior there is no excuse. For those that knowingly condone or support it, there should be no excuse either. Those complicit should all have their day in court and should all be held responsible and should face the consequences judicially and publicly

    but should those who were not complicit also lose their jobs and/or their investments? I have no idea how widespread this was or wasn't within the club or its ownership but I'm seeing a whole lot of people who know no more than I do jumping on the vigilante bandwagon pretty quickly and wonder how many of them are doing so not because of what tool place but because it's so easy to look good taking a public position with no personal consequences.

    As but one example, I struggle with ownership alone being a criteria here. Should we stop watching CNN if Charlie Rose turns out to own shares? Should we shut down CBC because of the actions of Jian Ghomeshi (we're all owners of that one remember)? Nobody should get a free ride when it comes to this kind of behavior but everyone shouldn't be painted with the same broad brush being used to paint here

    Perhaps everyone who tended bar or waited tables or provided security or invested in or leased space or equipment to the club or bussed tables or worked in the kitchen at the Needle really is complicit but I doubt that's possible - if everyone really was complicit there would be no victims and there are obviously victims who deserve to see justice. The backlash here however seems to go beyond supporting the victims and providing some justice regarding the perpetrators, the backlash here seems more like target shooting with a shotgun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    That was one scenario. In any case bashing a establishment because of sexual harassment should be a Police issue. Now The Needle is closed and people are out of work, because of these gold diggers

    I don't go out to these places but I support The Needle staying open.

    Did this gold digger care that innocent employees are now out of a job over the holidays?

    Word: Polygraph!
    This post is exactly why using social media to litigate issues like this is so dangerous. Brittany had a valid initial complaint that is now getting distorted and amplified in multiple directions by bile such as this.

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    Admin, I second the motion to carve out The Needle sexual harassment posts into its own thread, as it is really detracting from the intent of this thread...

    TIA

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    ^ Sorry my posts upset you. I don't believe in allegations. Let it come out in a court of Law not public opinion. He said she said is so high school.

    Yeesh now I'm being vilified by Admin because I'm not on the bandwagon.
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    Good story about an old building being put to new use in Riverdale: http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonto...ive-space.html

    They'll be putting on music and art shows apparently. With Billie Zizi and Bill Bourne involved they'll likely be able to pull in some good acts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    I wish the consequences in circumstances like this were as black and white as the issue. For those that carry on that type of behavior there is no excuse. For those that knowingly condone or support it, there should be no excuse either. Those complicit should all have their day in court and should all be held responsible and should face the consequences judicially and publicly

    but should those who were not complicit also lose their jobs and/or their investments? I have no idea how widespread this was or wasn't within the club or its ownership but I'm seeing a whole lot of people who know no more than I do jumping on the vigilante bandwagon pretty quickly and wonder how many of them are doing so not because of what tool place but because it's so easy to look good taking a public position with no personal consequences.

    As but one example, I struggle with ownership alone being a criteria here. Should we stop watching CNN if Charlie Rose turns out to own shares? Should we shut down CBC because of the actions of Jian Ghomeshi (we're all owners of that one remember)? Nobody should get a free ride when it comes to this kind of behavior but everyone shouldn't be painted with the same broad brush being used to paint here

    Perhaps everyone who tended bar or waited tables or provided security or invested in or leased space or equipment to the club or bussed tables or worked in the kitchen at the Needle really is complicit but I doubt that's possible - if everyone really was complicit there would be no victims and there are obviously victims who deserve to see justice. The backlash here however seems to go beyond supporting the victims and providing some justice regarding the perpetrators, the backlash here seems more like target shooting with a shotgun.
    I think a closer analogy would be if CNN didn't fire Charlie Rose because he owned 1/3 of it. Or if the CBC didn't fire Ghomeshi because he owned 1/3 of CBC. And then advertisers stopped wanting to be on the air of those stations.

    Instead Charlie Rose is fired. Jian Ghomeshi is fired. If in the needle case, the 1/3 owner was 'fired', then it would have been a different story in terms of it shutting down maybe. Ownership isn't the criteria, it's what happens to the offenders. Although the other 2/3 owners don't come off as roses in this situation either with how they allegedly handled things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    I wish the consequences in circumstances like this were as black and white as the issue. For those that carry on that type of behavior there is no excuse. For those that knowingly condone or support it, there should be no excuse either. Those complicit should all have their day in court and should all be held responsible and should face the consequences judicially and publicly

    but should those who were not complicit also lose their jobs and/or their investments? I have no idea how widespread this was or wasn't within the club or its ownership but I'm seeing a whole lot of people who know no more than I do jumping on the vigilante bandwagon pretty quickly and wonder how many of them are doing so not because of what tool place but because it's so easy to look good taking a public position with no personal consequences.

    As but one example, I struggle with ownership alone being a criteria here. Should we stop watching CNN if Charlie Rose turns out to own shares? Should we shut down CBC because of the actions of Jian Ghomeshi (we're all owners of that one remember)? Nobody should get a free ride when it comes to this kind of behavior but everyone shouldn't be painted with the same broad brush being used to paint here

    Perhaps everyone who tended bar or waited tables or provided security or invested in or leased space or equipment to the club or bussed tables or worked in the kitchen at the Needle really is complicit but I doubt that's possible - if everyone really was complicit there would be no victims and there are obviously victims who deserve to see justice. The backlash here however seems to go beyond supporting the victims and providing some justice regarding the perpetrators, the backlash here seems more like target shooting with a shotgun.
    I think a closer analogy would be if CNN didn't fire Charlie Rose because he owned 1/3 of it. Or if the CBC didn't fire Ghomeshi because he owned 1/3 of CBC. And then advertisers stopped wanting to be on the air of those stations.

    Instead Charlie Rose is fired. Jian Ghomeshi is fired. If in the needle case, the 1/3 owner was 'fired', then it would have been a different story in terms of it shutting down maybe. Ownership isn't the criteria, it's what happens to the offenders. Although the other 2/3 owners don't come off as roses in this situation either with how they allegedly handled things.
    you won't find any real disagreement from me on your revised analogies but it doesn't change the fact i don't know who knew how much for how long before anything was or wasn't done, owners or not, at the needle. it just seems to me the current situation punishes the victims and other innocents as much as the guilty.
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    Amsterdam, and a lot of other places on earth, have the right policies in place. No come ons. Just pay your fee and everybody's happy. Something we need a lot more of to tame the male libido in North America. Our laws are archaic in this field which leads to many of the problems we have. Top Dawg has expressed his wisdom in this regard.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 23-11-2017 at 10:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    I wish the consequences in circumstances like this were as black and white as the issue. For those that carry on that type of behavior there is no excuse. For those that knowingly condone or support it, there should be no excuse either. Those complicit should all have their day in court and should all be held responsible and should face the consequences judicially and publicly

    but should those who were not complicit also lose their jobs and/or their investments? I have no idea how widespread this was or wasn't within the club or its ownership but I'm seeing a whole lot of people who know no more than I do jumping on the vigilante bandwagon pretty quickly and wonder how many of them are doing so not because of what tool place but because it's so easy to look good taking a public position with no personal consequences.

    As but one example, I struggle with ownership alone being a criteria here. Should we stop watching CNN if Charlie Rose turns out to own shares? Should we shut down CBC because of the actions of Jian Ghomeshi (we're all owners of that one remember)? Nobody should get a free ride when it comes to this kind of behavior but everyone shouldn't be painted with the same broad brush being used to paint here

    Perhaps everyone who tended bar or waited tables or provided security or invested in or leased space or equipment to the club or bussed tables or worked in the kitchen at the Needle really is complicit but I doubt that's possible - if everyone really was complicit there would be no victims and there are obviously victims who deserve to see justice. The backlash here however seems to go beyond supporting the victims and providing some justice regarding the perpetrators, the backlash here seems more like target shooting with a shotgun.
    I think a closer analogy would be if CNN didn't fire Charlie Rose because he owned 1/3 of it. Or if the CBC didn't fire Ghomeshi because he owned 1/3 of CBC. And then advertisers stopped wanting to be on the air of those stations.

    Instead Charlie Rose is fired. Jian Ghomeshi is fired. If in the needle case, the 1/3 owner was 'fired', then it would have been a different story in terms of it shutting down maybe. Ownership isn't the criteria, it's what happens to the offenders. Although the other 2/3 owners don't come off as roses in this situation either with how they allegedly handled things.
    you won't find any real disagreement from me on your revised analogies but it doesn't change the fact i don't know who knew how much for how long before anything was or wasn't done, owners or not, at the needle. it just seems to me the current situation punishes the victims and other innocents as much as the guilty.
    The owners could have cut out the problem owner and remained open if they weren't completely inept at damage control. Instead they exacerbated the issue then shut the doors. In my eyes the blame lies squarely one them for those jobs being taken away, not on the women who have come forward. They did play a part, but they are hardly responsible for the outcome.

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    ^ If the women that came forward with these ALLEGATIONS went through regular Police channels, people at The Needle would still be employed. There's no place in our society for workplace sexual harassment or anywhere.

    How many of us have skeletons in the closet? That answer can be found within.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ If the women that came forward with these ALLEGATIONS went through regular Police channels, people at The Needle would still be employed. There's no place in our society for workplace sexual harassment or anywhere.

    How many of us have skeletons in the closet? That answer can be found within.
    Why can you not understand that it is incredibly, incredibly difficult to legally prove that this type of harassment occurred? By definition, it is he said/she said. The likelihood of a criminal conviction is essentially zero, as there will always be a reasonable doubt in this kind of a situation.

    And that aside, even if the incidents did not in fact rise to the level of outright criminal sexual harassment/assault, that does not mean that nothing wrong occurred or that the management/ownership of the Needle handled the situation properly. From what has come out, ownership tried to sweep the incident under the rug while ALSO continuing in their plan to bring on another creep which numerous staff had warned them had a horrid reputation in the industry for the same kind of behavior.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 23-11-2017 at 11:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Petrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ If the women that came forward with these ALLEGATIONS went through regular Police channels, people at The Needle would still be employed. There's no place in our society for workplace sexual harassment or anywhere.

    How many of us have skeletons in the closet? That answer can be found within.
    Why can you not understand that it is incredibly, incredibly difficult to legally prove that this type of harassment occurred? By definition, it is he said/she said. The likelihood of a criminal conviction is essentially zero, as there will always be a reasonable doubt in this kind of a situation.

    And that aside, even if the incidents did not in fact rise to the level of outright criminal sexual harassment/assault, that does not mean that nothing wrong occurred or that the management/ownership of the Needle handled the situation properly. From what has come out, ownership tried to sweep the incident under the rug while ALSO continuing in their plan to bring on another creep which numerous staff had warned them had a horrid reputation in the industry for the same kind of behavior.
    What makes you think I don't get any of this? At this point these are simply nothing more then ALLEGATIONS, your a reasonably intelligent person enough to grasp this. This is not rocket science. There is reasonable doubt here.

    At this point all we have is two people supporting each other. I've never defended legitimate sexual harassment in anyway but until EPS come forward to lay charges I'll remain skeptical in this issue and that's my position. I might be misogynistic until charges are brought forward. I apologise for my "gold digger" remark and that was uncalled for. I'll never call anyone a creep or whatever the case may be. I don't have all the facts.
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    I don't think any feminist will be happy until every person with a penis is in jail for something, due process or not.

    What a male-hate society this is becoming and everyone's ok with it. Unreal. You feminist Cucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I don't think any feminist will be happy until every person with a penis is in jail for something, due process or not.

    What a male-hate society this is becoming and everyone's ok with it. Unreal. You feminist Cucks.
    Thanks for giving voice to my thoughts. You pretty much nailed it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I don't think any feminist will be happy until every person with a penis is in jail for something, due process or not.

    What a male-hate society this is becoming and everyone's ok with it. Unreal. You feminist Cucks.
    Thanks for giving voice to my thoughts. You pretty much nailed it.
    LOL.

    I mean, none of your other posts about not being a misogynist were at all logically consistent, but stating that this is exactly how you feel too...

    Lol.

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    Things are getting real - Councillor Scott Mckeen is on CBC right now talking about how no more business licenses will be issued to MEN who want to open music venues in Edmonton. Women only from now on. He's upset they can't do anything about existing clubs. The Slits, Pussy Riot and Sleater Kinney are booked to play a free show at City Hall in support of the move.

    I know I've made fun of Kitlope in the past but you've got to admit he saw this one coming.

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    ^Any sources for any of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I don't think any feminist will be happy until every person with a penis is in jail for something, due process or not.

    What a male-hate society this is becoming and everyone's ok with it. Unreal. You feminist Cucks.
    Thanks for giving voice to my thoughts. You pretty much nailed it.

    "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" --Thomas Sowell
    Last edited by Alex.L; 24-11-2017 at 08:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I don't think any feminist will be happy until every person with a penis is in jail for something, due process or not.

    What a male-hate society this is becoming and everyone's ok with it. Unreal. You feminist Cucks.
    Thanks for giving voice to my thoughts. You pretty much nailed it.
    i can’t help but wonder if your mothers and sisters and daughters would be proud or just embarrassed if you shared this at the dinner table but deep down i think i already know...
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    ^ Sorry my posts upset you. I don't believe in allegations. Let it come out in a court of Law not public opinion. He said she said is so high school.

    Yeesh now I'm being vilified by Admin because I'm not on the bandwagon.
    You're vilified because you're spewing hateful sexist rhetoric & are completely oblivious to it. You're like a leaky oil tanker of ignorance, blissfully unaware of the toxic slick you're leaving in your wake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    ^Any sources for any of that?
    Would it matter to anyone in this conversation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitlope View Post
    I don't think any feminist will be happy until every person with a penis is in jail for something, due process or not.

    What a male-hate society this is becoming and everyone's ok with it. Unreal. You feminist Cucks.
    Thanks for giving voice to my thoughts. You pretty much nailed it.

    "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" --Thomas Sowell
    Bingo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    ^Any sources for any of that?
    Would it matter to anyone in this conversation?
    Yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Amsterdam, and a lot of other places on earth, have the right policies in place. No come ons. Just pay your fee and everybody's happy. Something we need a lot more of to tame the male libido in North America. Our laws are archaic in this field which leads to many of the problems we have. Top Dawg has expressed his wisdom in this regard.


    Wisdom.

    Good one.

    Well there is no doubt that the complainant in this case was the victim of sexual harassment - even sexual assault.

    But two things kind of stand out for Top_Dawg.

    For one, it's the bar industry. Anybody working in it - especially an attractive female - should expect a certain level of lewd conduct. It's the very nature of the industry.

    You know - eyes wide open and all that.

    Secondly, just by the timelines that are being reported and the way the complainant went about airing her grievances on social media, Top_Dawg senses there are other motivations at play here.

    There is more to this story and it looks to Top_Dawg that the owners just don't want to air everything out in the media.

    In the end Top_Dawg senses this is more a case of a disgruntled employee with an axe to grind than the egregious near rape and ensuing PTSD that it is being made out to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    [The owners could have cut out the problem owner and remained open if they weren't completely inept at damage control. Instead they exacerbated the issue then shut the doors. In my eyes the blame lies squarely one them for those jobs being taken away, not on the women who have come forward. They did play a part, but they are hardly responsible for the outcome.
    Please substantiate how the owners "Exacerbated the issue"

    These are the owners actions:

    1) From the time an initial allegation was made the alleged owner was not on the premises/and or had no contact with the complainant until a recent meeting involving all owners to seek to further rectify the situation. So that 7mths went by in which the establishment in effect implemented its own restraining order of sorts. Without any police involvement or being told to do so. They volunteered this and put it into place on their own.

    2)The establishment also listened to the concerns, granted apologies for the same, and did this multiple times. The apologies were refuted by the complainant as insincere. Apparently actions were taken to seek to further remedy the situation and so that it would be an environment people can feel safe in. These efforts were apparently refuted.

    3)The establishment on its own, without any requirement to do so decided that they would involve SACE support allowing inservice, training, on site that would be mandatory. They agreed to all this. Again on their own recognizance.


    Now understand that the above 3 reflect the kinds of things that an establishment would do if the owners were charged and convicted of running an inappropriate establishment. So that reflects more that the ownership was responsive to remediation than opposed to it and that they were actually accommodating beneficial change.

    Now comprehend that the complainant had not gone to police, not filed a complained, not initiated charges, and has instead sought to essentially shut down the fuckers through such means as contacting lobbies and investing in social media in a fit of public shaming of the establishment going as far to air public allegations(that have not been substantiated through any due process) about the owner and complete with telling people to not patronize the establishment.
    Now we have the net result of the ownership feeling this is too much trouble and just closing the establishment, everybody, even the innocent are out of work. The complainants coworkers are out of work, and still no charges, no complaint filed with police, just an apparent intent of the complainant to do that when she finishes shaming on social media. Further the complained rebuked possible solutions, was apparently unwilling to hear any denoument and seemingly escalated through the process while feeling somehow threatened and "unsafe" even though the establishment had effectively stopped the contact between complainant and the alleged.

    So which party, of these, sought to remediate the situation.
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-11-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    For one, it's the bar industry. Anybody working in it - especially an attractive female - should expect a certain level of lewd conduct. It's the very nature of the industry.

    You know - eyes wide open and all that.
    Nobody should ever have to expect harassment as part of their job. That's kinda the exact point of this whole issue. Nobody's ever "asking for it", nor is it ever excusable or warranted.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    So that what people are concerned with is not just the specifics of this establishment and what occurred there. Its that the further perpetration of tried, sentenced, convicted can so effectively operate on social media and without the benefit of restorative justice, or due process, or informed sentencing and restitution. No, current reality to any business and its operators is the very worst can occur without engaging any legal mechanism that exists for the purpose of due process and resolution in these matters.

    This was a complete subverting of due process and appropriate resolution by the complainant and the hypocrites that defend due process in other instances, for example Khadr (and rightly so) are cheering on this irresponsible action on the part of the complainant in this instance. Which further establishes a lack of due process and reinforces instead the public shaming mechanisms through social media which are apparently to be further used channel for anybody with allegations. At the peril of the untold damages that further ensues through reactionary responses by those that have no background in jurisprudence, have no conception of beyond a reasonable doubt but who will howl like banshees at any alleged accused just the same.

    Nor is this a new concept. Social media shaming has been so completely insidious that countless people have committed suicide in response to the shaming. Interestingly, the medium is sick enough that many young women and teens have killed themselves because they were charged and convicted on social media of being sluts, whores, etc and quite often with other young females being the ones flinging the darts on social media. So that perhaps ironically the complainant in this instance purposely used such an inappropriate and harmful, and irresponsible, and UNSAFE medium in which to exact her complaints. With so much anger invected in those complaints, and inflamed, that she uses the word **** in every other sentence. How responsible or informed is the social media response that has been selected. Where is SACE in saying, and responding that Social media attacks harm many young women and females and that perhaps this channel should NOT be utilized in these matters.
    Last edited by Replacement; 24-11-2017 at 11:29 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Especially now that a police investigation is underway, I am amazed that the complainant has yet to change the cover photo on her Facebook page to something less offensive:

    https://www.facebook.com/brittany.rudyck

    Maybe it's because I'm an old fashioned sixty something, but choosing to use such a cover photo for one's personal Facebook page speaks to character and perhaps even motivation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    So that what people are concerned with is not just the specifics of this establishment and what occurred thee. Its that the further perpetration of tried, sentenced, convicted can so effectively operate on social media and without the benefit of restorative justice, or due process, or informed sentencing and restitution. No, current reality to any business and its operators is the very worst can occur without engaging any legal mechanism that exists for the purpose of due process and resolution in these matters.

    This was a complete subverting of due process and appropriate resolution by the complainant and the hypocrites that defend due process for Khadr (and rightly so) are cheering on this irresponsible action on the part of the complainant in this instance. Which further establishes a lack of due process and reinforces instead the public shaming mechanisms through social media which are apparently to be further used channel for anybody with allegation. At the peril of the untold damages that further ensues through reactionary responses by those that have no background in jurisprudence, have no conception of beyond a reasonable doubt but who will howl like banshees at any alleged accused just the same.
    Wait, Brittany locked up the owner in an offshore military prison without trial? Or did she literally just share her experience online for people to judge themselves. And people believe her, and therefore decided to, voluntarily, take their business elsewhere. You know, capitalism.

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