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Thread: Provincial Super Lab - South Campus

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    Default Provincial Super Lab - South Campus

    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Good location on the underutilized South Campus lands of the U of A. Directly opposite the South Campus LRT Station.

    Having the new superlab located downtown was never going to happen. It's a highly specialized facility best located in an academic/health/institutional setting.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    Good location on the underutilized South Campus lands of the U of A. Directly opposite the South Campus LRT Station.

    Having the new superlab located downtown was never going to happen. It's a highly specialized facility best located in an academic/health/institutional setting.
    I agree. It was ok to have the lab downtown, but I preferred the retail stores that were there before. I realize it was probably a reasonable choice for an underutilized space at the time, but the South Campus location is probably a much better location now for something like a large lab.

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    South Campus is fine, but an even better location would have been next to the U of A Hospital.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    South Campus is fine, but an even better location would have been next to the U of A Hospital.
    Any idea where would be best if next to UofA Hospital? My first guess would have been the parking lot south of Canadian Blood Services, but I got a feeling this super lab will be at least a hundred thousand square feet.

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    My guess is plus 50,000 sq meters for plus 1000 staff in a lab and research environment.

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    I'm guessing considerably more than 1000 staff are involved. There are currently 700 employees in DynaLIFE's downtown lab. According to this article: http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...e-labs-in-2022 DynaLIFE actually employs about 1200 staff. There are also a number of large labs that are run by the various hospitals. Some of these people (maybe most) will be staying in the hospital, but the functions that don't need to be there will be moved over to this new lab. Those are the people who are analyzing samples for your doctors. There will be efficiencies of scale but there are a lot of samples analyzed daily, weekly and monthly in Edmonton (and satellite cities) as part of routine testing.

    If the new lab also hosts research, then we're talking even more people.

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    And repatriate a chunk of testing now sent out to the USA that Alberta does not have the capacity to perform.

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    I wonder how much will happen though, sure Notley can promise lots of government union jobs for 2022, but May 2019 comes 1st, and her chances of getting elected is pretty slim. Her popularity in November polls was about 24% and they are projected to win 14 seats.
    http://calgarysun.com/opinion/column...-from-dead-yet

    So all things continuing as they are, building gets built and then staffed with? Either DynaLIFE or government workers.

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    With regards to size estimates, the area occupied by just the four soccer fields is huge, ~3.3 hectares. And as you can see there is still lots of space left around them:


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    I think this is going to be a great location as it consolidates these services in one area. This will finally have this area more and more useful and further help the South Campus have more reason to develop further. South Campus will no longer feel like it is in the middle of nowhere. This should also further add to the usage of the SLRT line and hopefully will encourage the line to expand to the proposed Ellerslie Road station or even further south. Now all we need for this area is some additional student housing and other University and provincial facilities that will create another hub at South Campus.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  12. #12

    Default Paula Simons: Time to put lab decision under the microscope

    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...the-microscope

    The site seems eminently logical: free land, close to the U of A Hospital, well-served by public transit, just off the Whitemud Freeway.

    For the downtown, though, losing DynaLife will be a big blow. DynaLife’s departure won’t just leave a huge space vacant — it will pull hundreds of workers out of the city core.

    Ian O’Donnell, of the Downtown Business Association, still hopes to convince the province to change its mind.

    “Losing an employer of that size is not something we’d be very pleased about,” he says. “But a lot can happen between now and then, including a new government and new priorities.”


    I realize the DBA is a special interest group and all, but I find it rather concerning and distasteful that anyone would be lobbying for health policy that doesn't consider first and foremost patient outcomes and value for taxpayers. Does the DBA really want a less than ideal facility in order to further their narrow agenda? And are they really endorsing the UCP in order to see this happen?

  13. #13

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    How friggen stupid. The shortsightedness of the DBA is well shown here. The only reason the Dynalife labs moved downtown in the first place was because of very low rents in an economical depressed downtown Edmonton. Times are getting better, it's time to do something else the podium for manulife 2.
    Moving to a 'superlab' should provide cost savings and it's better being close to the uofa and the uofa hospital.

    The only thing the DBA and IanO cares about is their small little part of the city. Shallow. Weak, and a good reason why many don't respect the DBA or IanO here. The DBA has no problem trying to attract employers from outside of the downtown core to downtown, but cries when the opposite happens? Friggen unreal.

    The DBA should be focused on bringing someone in to take that space once dynalife leaves. That's good streetfront retail there that's been closed off due to it being a lab. This could be a huge thing for that inactivated part of the street, but instead we are going to run to the province government. Pathetic, not well thought out, ill-advised, poor-show.
    Last edited by Medwards; 09-01-2018 at 09:12 AM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    I realize the DBA is a special interest group and all, but I find it rather concerning and distasteful that anyone would be lobbying for health policy that doesn't consider first and foremost patient outcomes and value for taxpayers.
    The only thing that the DBA cares about is in their acronym.

    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Does the DBA really want a less than ideal facility in order to further their narrow agenda?
    They're a single-minded, single-purpose organization, to them their focus is a feature, not a bug.

    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    And are they really endorsing the UCP in order to see this happen?
    Wait, what? Got a link for that?
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  15. #15

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    noodle:

    “Losing an employer of that size is not something we’d be very pleased about,” he says. “But a lot can happen between now and then, including a new government and new priorities.”

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  17. #17

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    At least AIMCO sees opporuntity rather than the grime doom and gloom message via IanO at the DBA

    "AIMCo, the Alberta Investment Management Corp., which currently owns the 102 Avenue building, doesn’t sound worried, though. By 2022, after all, the site might be ripe for redevelopment. That could mean a major new retail tenant in the space. But it could even mean a new office or condo tower built atop the current building podium.

    “Should that property become vacant, AIMCo will look to see what the market needs,” says AIMCo’s Denes Nemeth. “We’ll assess the opportunities.” "

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    A thinly-veiled threat from a single-minded sociopath-on-a-soapbox is not a formal endorsement from the organization though.
    Isn't he the Executive Director and hence spokesperson?

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    A thinly-veiled threat from a single-minded sociopath-on-a-soapbox is not a formal endorsement from the organization though.
    Isn't he the Executive Director and hence spokesperson?
    Ian's got a long history conflating his personal & professional agendas along with a tendency to speak blindly for people as if a consensus exists when it's not the case (aka using "the royal we" incorrectly). I try not to take anything he says as the gospel truth unless corroborated or otherwise backed-up.
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    Thankfully... thankfully no one in the provinical government gives a sh*t what Ian thinks. That quote in the article is pretty telling about what his priorities are, which thankfully are not the priorities of our provincial government

    The lab is a great idea. AIMCO will develop that spot in due time. Everybody wins
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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    http://edmontonjournal.com/business/...the-microscope

    The site seems eminently logical: free land, close to the U of A Hospital, well-served by public transit, just off the Whitemud Freeway.

    For the downtown, though, losing DynaLife will be a big blow. DynaLife’s departure won’t just leave a huge space vacant — it will pull hundreds of workers out of the city core.

    Ian O’Donnell, of the Downtown Business Association, still hopes to convince the province to change its mind.

    “Losing an employer of that size is not something we’d be very pleased about,” he says. “But a lot can happen between now and then, including a new government and new priorities.”


    I realize the DBA is a special interest group and all, but I find it rather concerning and distasteful that anyone would be lobbying for health policy that doesn't consider first and foremost patient outcomes and value for taxpayers. Does the DBA really want a less than ideal facility in order to further their narrow agenda? And are they really endorsing the UCP in order to see this happen?
    i find ian’s comments disconcerting at best...

    there were no similar reservations about downtown losing dynacare when he was cheerleading a proposed new tower on that site that would have required them to move.

    he also appears to know little about dynacare’s business model now or in the past. now, the superlab’s business model will be a boon to the health care industry, the u of a and edmonton’s need to further diversify. in the past, dynacare’s provision of lab testing and results for northern alberta and the territories relied heavily on the city centre airport and a central/downtown location was advantageous. with the airport closure and the henday providing better access for greater edmonton clients, downtown is no longer the best location.

    if ian wants to champion the prevention of jobs leaving the downtown core, he should be chastising the provincial government for continuing to consolidate in neil crawford centre, not for doing the right thing for medical services in the province.

    as for that “change of government” shot, the previous government’s plans for the provision of lab services would also have seen dynacare closing their downtown lab.
    Last edited by kcantor; 09-01-2018 at 09:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    I realize the DBA is a special interest group and all, but I find it rather concerning and distasteful that anyone would be lobbying for health policy that doesn't consider first and foremost patient outcomes and value for taxpayers. Does the DBA really want a less than ideal facility in order to further their narrow agenda? And are they really endorsing the UCP in order to see this happen?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
    How does the location effect patient outcomes and value for taxpayers? You are making an assumption that South Campus will be superior to downtown. I'm not at all convinced it is. I get it, that connected to a hospital like the UofA might be superior (SDM's point, and discussed in the article), but South Campus is no more connected than downtown is (both a short LRT ride away). While a brand new campus might seem exciting to some, I think the cost should for the government should be carefully compared to just leasing some class B or C office space downtown, of which there is excess capacity sitting idle. I suspect when UCP takes over in 2019 there won't be a lot of money for building sprees on soccer fields (which nobody seems to care about the loss of).
    Last edited by moahunter; 09-01-2018 at 10:05 AM.

  23. #23

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    One of the priorities should be transportation access from all over the city and not just the UofA hospital. Every factor that’s slows delivery, slows the cycle and so slows the return of the results. I hope the south campus optimizes the whole processing cycle.

    In a few years, maybe drones will make traffic congestion a problem of the past.


    Province announces new super lab at U of A’s south campus | Edmonton Journal

    “Dr. Michael Mengel, AHS’s clinical department head of laboratory services for the Edmonton zone, said the new facility will be the drop-off point for millions of samples brought in from community collection sites all around Edmonton and northern Alberta.”

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...r-health-tests
    Last edited by KC; 09-01-2018 at 10:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    I realize the DBA is a special interest group and all, but I find it rather concerning and distasteful that anyone would be lobbying for health policy that doesn't consider first and foremost patient outcomes and value for taxpayers. Does the DBA really want a less than ideal facility in order to further their narrow agenda? And are they really endorsing the UCP in order to see this happen?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
    How does the location effect patient outcomes and value for taxpayers? You are making an assumption that South Campus will be superior to downtown. I'm not at all convinced it is. I get it, that connected to a hospital like the UofA might be superior (SDM's point), but South Campus is no more connected than downtown is (both a short LRT ride away). While a brand new campus might seem exciting to some, I think the cost should for the government should be carefully compared to just leasing some office space downtown, of which there is excess capacity sitting idle. I suspect when UCP takes over in 2019 there won't be a lot of money for building sprees on soccer fields (which nobody seems to care about the loss of).
    your comments are even more disconnected from reality as ian’s on this one.

    blood and specimen samples don’t move themselves around on the lrt, they arrive at the lab in vans from every hospital and collection lab in the region and from the international airport since the mini was closed. the new location is better than the existing one.
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    Our role is to ensure a safe, beautiful, vibrant Downtown Core with very defined boundaries, objectives and agendas. A loss of an employer of that size is something we would be troubled by, be it a lab, professional group or tech company. We recognize that AIMCO has been investigating options and we will be happy to work with them should Dynalife depart, but at the moment our position is such that we are opposed to this decision, its timing, and its cost to not only the Downtown, but to Alberta taxpayers.

    We are not alone in this position and have support from a variety of individuals, groups and organizations who oppose this decision on a variety of levels relating to Downtown and non-Downtown agendas.

    I should note that the DBA, BOMA, the Chamber and multiple other groups have been working to ensure that the Province remains committed to its office space in the Downtown and are opposed to recent moves to the Neil Crawford Centre. We have been in direct communication with both Minister Mason and now Minster Jansen.

    The value of bringing this operation back into public hands has been exceptionally controversial and cannot be dismissed as simply 'the right thing to do'. Many believe that this is the wrong move and will cost us much more from a capital and operational perspective; others believe it will provide value to Albertans.

    But please recognize our mandate and role, in that we are here to retain jobs and employers in the Downtown, not on South Campus.
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  26. #26

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    Downtown first, **** everyone else. DBA Executive Director IanO states.

    I should note that many groups and organizations who's interests are for the betterment of the city and province as a whole agree that this move is a good move, and those with self-serving interests who don't want to look at the bigger picture will find the move troubling because their heads are entrenched in the sand.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    I realize the DBA is a special interest group and all, but I find it rather concerning and distasteful that anyone would be lobbying for health policy that doesn't consider first and foremost patient outcomes and value for taxpayers. Does the DBA really want a less than ideal facility in order to further their narrow agenda? And are they really endorsing the UCP in order to see this happen?[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]
    How does the location effect patient outcomes and value for taxpayers? You are making an assumption that South Campus will be superior to downtown. I'm not at all convinced it is. I get it, that connected to a hospital like the UofA might be superior (SDM's point, and discussed in the article), but South Campus is no more connected than downtown is (both a short LRT ride away). While a brand new campus might seem exciting to some, I think the cost should for the government should be carefully compared to just leasing some class B or C office space downtown, of which there is excess capacity sitting idle. I suspect when UCP takes over in 2019 there won't be a lot of money for building sprees on soccer fields (which nobody seems to care about the loss of).
    I'm not assuming at all which location is better. My point is the DBA seems to have flagrant disregard for the important metrics of patient care and taxpayer value; their only interest is their own agenda.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Thankfully... thankfully no one in the provinical government gives a sh*t what Ian thinks. That quote in the article is pretty telling about what his priorities are, which thankfully are not the priorities of our provincial government

    The lab is a great idea. AIMCO will develop that spot in due time. Everybody wins
    Yes, very thankful indeed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Downtown first

    I should note that many groups and organizations who's interests are for the betterment of the city and province as a whole agree that this move is a good move, and those with self-serving interests who don't want to look at the bigger picture will find the move troubling because their heads are entrenched in the sand.
    I don't disagree. This is a complex decision, issue and future on-going operational cost.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    blood and specimen samples don’t move themselves around on the lrt, they arrive at the lab in vans from every hospital and collection lab in the region and from the international airport since the mini was closed. the new location is better than the existing one.
    Sure, but why not build it at YEG if you think the airport / transport access is the main thing, farmland is probably even cheaper there than South Campus lands (which could be used for residential or soccer fields, you know, facilities that make life better for people in Edmonton)? But its not about samples is it, if you take the time to read the OP article you will see how a more important factor is the tie in to medical facilities / expertise like the UofA (which is why LRT matters if it can't be at the UofA, and why YEG doesn't make sense and why the highway access to WMD is a non-consequential red herring).

    Or, we could consider that the centre of Edmonton is downtown not Whitemud drive, that there is spare office space waiting to be filled, and the LRT provides just as good a link for medical researchers to UofA as from South campus. But then again, who cares about the center when so many are trying to move everything south away from the "riff raff" they fear in the north / downtown?
    Last edited by moahunter; 09-01-2018 at 11:12 AM.

  31. #31

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    Wouldn't on-going operational costs preclude Downtown almost immediately, given that there's no space to expand in the core & without expansion/consolidation we'll lose out on the economies of scale that centralization brings? How can Downtown compete with a provincially-owned building, on provincially-owned land, leveraging massive economies of scale in an area that's cheaper/easier to operate in than a renovated shopping centre that itself was the silk purse made from the sow's ear which was the aborted second Manulife?
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  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    blood and specimen samples don’t move themselves around on the lrt, they arrive at the lab in vans from every hospital and collection lab in the region and from the international airport since the mini was closed. the new location is better than the existing one.
    Sure, but why not build it at YEG if you think the airport / transport access is the main thing, farmland is probably even cheaper there than South Campus lands (which could be used for residential or soccer fields, you know, facilities that make life better for people in Edmonton)? But its not about samples is it, if you take the time to read the OP article you will see how a more important factor is the tie in to medical facilities / expertise like the UofA (which is why LRT matters if it can't be at the UofA, and why YEG doesn't make sense and why the highway access in non-consequential).

    Or, we could consider that the centre of Edmonton is downtown not Whitemud drive, that there is spare office space waiting to be filled, and the LRT provides just as good a link for medical researchers to UofA as from South campus. But then again, who cares about the center when so many are trying to move everything south away from the "riff raff" they fear in the north / downtown?
    my god you appear dumber the more you post. This is a lab, not office space. A lab that has been occupying what should be a podium of an office tower. A podium which was meant for retail, not a lab.
    The cost of land at south campus is free. The province already owns the land the lab will go on. South Campus is meant for these types of facilities.

  33. #33

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    ^350M would pay for decades of downtown lease, and its not all "up front" then. I expect the UCP will scrap this, but lets wait and see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    You edited my quote?
    Actually, the more accurate statement is that I was misquoted or that you crafted your own quote to fit your own agenda.
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  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Wouldn't on-going operational costs preclude Downtown almost immediately, given that there's no space to expand in the core
    Its called leasing more floors or space in neighboring buildings, it happens all the time with growing businesses in downtowns all over the world, its how downtowns grow, and a lab hardly needs high end space, any class B or C building will do.

  36. #36

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    The nonsensical protestation about the lab moving has more to do with the lack of success in attracting businesses Downtown than anything else. If we had a Downtown where businesses want to be the transitory loss of what amounts to a negligible amount of jobs for Edmonton writ large wouldn't really matter.

    800 people is roughly half of what we added in terms of new jobs across the city in December, but in a Downtown that's already plagued with oversupply of office & retail space that's a much bigger localized hit.
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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Wouldn't on-going operational costs preclude Downtown almost immediately, given that there's no space to expand in the core
    Its called leasing more floors or space in neighboring buildings, it happens all the time with growing businesses in downtowns all over the world, its how downtowns grow, and a lab hardly needs high end space, any class B or C building will do.
    It's like you think this is an administrative office & not the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory.
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  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    You edited my quote?
    Actually, the more accurate statement is that I was misquoted or that you crafted your own quote to fit your own agenda.
    Acttttuualllllyyy, you lost any chance of holding the moral high ground when you did your own selective edit rather than just ignore it entirely.

    You might want to take the rest of the day off from C2E. It's not gonna be your day around these parts.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Wouldn't on-going operational costs preclude Downtown almost immediately, given that there's no space to expand in the core
    Its called leasing more floors or space in neighboring buildings, it happens all the time with growing businesses in downtowns all over the world, its how downtowns grow, and a lab hardly needs high end space, any class B or C building will do.
    It's like you think this is an administrative office & not the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory.
    I think having the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory in the center of the city, where it is at the moment and where there is lots of free space (I'm sure could easily rent an entire building), makes more sense than a non-centralized centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory that destroys a soccer field in the wop-wops.
    Last edited by moahunter; 09-01-2018 at 11:29 AM. Reason: soccer not football (not a rugby field thankfully)

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ...

    But please recognize our mandate and role, in that we are here to retain jobs and employers in the Downtown, not on South Campus.
    Retain jobs downtown at any cost? Would the DBA be happy keeping the jobs downtown even if doing so could be demonstrated to negatively affect healthcare?

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I think having the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory in the center of the city, where it is at the moment and where there is lots of free space (I'm sure could easily rent an entire building), makes more sense than a non-centralized centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory that destroys a soccer field in the wop-wops.
    South Campus is "in the wop-wops"? I know you're not from here, but try to not sound like a complete dithering fool every time you open your mouth to stir the pot.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  42. #42

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    Practically in the midst of pastoral meadows:

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  43. #43

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    Hopefully most of the employees take the train rather than drive. Fox Drive, Belgravia, 114/113 street are already pretty congested in the morning and afternoon drives.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Wouldn't on-going operational costs preclude Downtown almost immediately, given that there's no space to expand in the core
    Its called leasing more floors or space in neighboring buildings, it happens all the time with growing businesses in downtowns all over the world, its how downtowns grow, and a lab hardly needs high end space, any class B or C building will do.
    It's like you think this is an administrative office & not the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory.
    I think having the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory in the center of the city, where it is at the moment and where there is lots of free space (I'm sure could easily rent an entire building), makes more sense than a non-centralized centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory that destroys a soccer field in the wop-wops.
    I'm sure an efficient purpose-built lab has requirements you won't get in an already-existing commercial highrise. I'm not sold that the proposed location is more accessible, but a dedicated structure designed and built for the purpose is probably warranted.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ...

    But please recognize our mandate and role, in that we are here to retain jobs and employers in the Downtown, not on South Campus.
    Retain jobs downtown at any cost? Would the DBA be happy keeping the jobs downtown even if doing so could be demonstrated to negatively affect healthcare?
    Of course not at any cost good sir, but having spoken with many folks on this matter over the last year and following the whole Dynacare/Dynalife/Australian/Cancellation/Reconsideration story, I am not convinced building a new lab and bringing it back as a public entity is the right move, at least not right now given the Provincial financial situation. Show me some numbers.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  46. #46

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    IanO, have you spoke with any folks that agree that the move is a good idea? It seems you only want to represent the people that support your agenda already (much like you did during your tenure with DECL)

    Also, what makes the DBA and you an expert on Alberta Health, and where it should locate it's labs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You might want to take the rest of the day off from C2E. It's not gonna be your day around these parts.
    If there is any day to be around, this is one of them to provide some clarity, perspective and rational.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    IanO, have you spoke with any folks that agree that the move is a good idea? It seems you only want to represent the people that support your agenda already (much like you did during your tenure with DECL)
    Having worked for an architect, I agree that a dedicated building for a specialized use is probably reasonable, but given the cost, timing and impact... I am not supportive.

    Please once again refer to our role, agenda, mandate. This is something we simply cannot support for a variety of reasons and have many others Downtown who support our decision.
    www.decl.org

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  49. #49

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    Have you spoke with any folks that agree that this move is a good move?

    (You didn't answer this in your non-answer)

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    IanO, have you spoke with any folks that agree that the move is a good idea? It seems you only want to represent the people that support your agenda already (much like you did during your tenure with DECL)
    Having worked for an architect, I agree that a dedicated building for a specialized use is probably reasonable, but given the cost, timing and impact... I am not supportive.

    Please once again refer to our role, agenda, mandate. This is something we simply cannot support for a variety of reasons and have many others Downtown who support our decision.
    What timing would be a good timing for this move?
    What impact are you talking about? It's not like this lab is moving out of Edmonton. That might have an impact, this move doesn't. I don't think you have the slightest clue about the cost of not doing this move. What is the lab found a spot downtown? Would suddenly the cost no longer be a part of your argument

    You know that if AHS found land downtown to build this lab, you would be over the moon, and your "timing, impact, cost" argument wouldn't be played.

    Regardless of your role, agenda or mandate, this is a good move for Edmonton and Alberta. It's not anyone elses fault that you refuse to see the bigger picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Please once again refer to our role, agenda, mandate. This is something we simply cannot support for a variety of reasons and have many others Downtown who support our decision.





    Just out of idle curiosity.

    Can you name one ?

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Dawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Please once again refer to our role, agenda, mandate. This is something we simply cannot support for a variety of reasons and have many others Downtown who support our decision.





    Just out of idle curiosity.

    Can you name one ?
    He's gonna say BOMA & the Chamber (as if DBA, BOMA & the Chamber aren't the same goddamn pie cut three different ways).
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ...

    But please recognize our mandate and role, in that we are here to retain jobs and employers in the Downtown, not on South Campus.
    Retain jobs downtown at any cost? Would the DBA be happy keeping the jobs downtown even if doing so could be demonstrated to negatively affect healthcare?
    Of course not at any cost good sir, but having spoken with many folks on this matter over the last year and following the whole Dynacare/Dynalife/Australian/Cancellation/Reconsideration story, I am not convinced building a new lab and bringing it back as a public entity is the right move, at least not right now given the Provincial financial situation. Show me some numbers.
    Please read the HQCA 2016 report and the HQCA 2017 plan for provincial laboratory services.

    https://d10k7k7mywg42z.cloudfront.ne...2016_FINAL.pdf

    https://d10k7k7mywg42z.cloudfront.ne...rta_FINAL_.pdf

    So the DBA rejects the HQCA recommendations? On what basis?

  54. #54

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    O SNAP!

    Good find.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    DBA Board and Ex-officio:

    CHAIR - Alyson Hodson, zag Creative Group Inc.
    VICE CHAIR - Gord Rajewski, Williams Engineering Canada
    TREASURER - Rick Mussenden, KPMG LLP
    Director - Robert Bothwell, Bennett Jones
    DIRECTOR - Patrick Saurette, The Marc Restaurant

    Dr. David Atkinson, Grant MacEwan University
    Teresa Clouston, ATB Financial
    Joumana Ghandour, The Westin Edmonton
    Chris Graham, Shoppers Drug Mart
    Ian Large, Leger Marketing
    Michael MacBeath, EPCOR
    Sheldon Magnes, Imperial Parking
    Casey McClelland, Colliers International
    Linda Wedman, The Works Society


    EX-OFFICIO - Walter Trocenko, City of Edmonton - Sustainable Development
    Executive Director - Ian O'Donnell, Downtown Business Association of Edmon

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    ^ Bingo
    There is a fine line between being a forceful and vocal advocate for having things downtown and becoming a mindless one, losing credibility and possibly starting to alienate potential supporters.

    As a person who runs a business downtown I am glad the DBA is trying to have a higher profile, but it should also pick its battles wisely. It seems to me the South Campus proposal makes good sense overall and using the downtown space as a lab was not necessarily the best use of that space, but something that happened because a the time there was too much retail space in the area at the time and it had a lot of vacancy. A lot has happened since that time and it may be better again for the space to have another use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    IanO, have you spoke with any folks that agree that the move is a good idea? It seems you only want to represent the people that support your agenda already (much like you did during your tenure with DECL)
    Having worked for an architect, I agree that a dedicated building for a specialized use is probably reasonable, but given the cost, timing and impact... I am not supportive.

    Please once again refer to our role, agenda, mandate. This is something we simply cannot support for a variety of reasons and have many others Downtown who support our decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You might want to take the rest of the day off from C2E. It's not gonna be your day around these parts.
    If there is any day to be around, this is one of them to provide some clarity, perspective and rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ...

    But please recognize our mandate and role, in that we are here to retain jobs and employers in the Downtown, not on South Campus.
    Retain jobs downtown at any cost? Would the DBA be happy keeping the jobs downtown even if doing so could be demonstrated to negatively affect healthcare?
    Of course not at any cost good sir, but having spoken with many folks on this matter over the last year and following the whole Dynacare/Dynalife/Australian/Cancellation/Reconsideration story, I am not convinced building a new lab and bringing it back as a public entity is the right move, at least not right now given the Provincial financial situation. Show me some numbers.
    "Having worked for an architect..."

    "...I am not supportive."

    "...to provide some clarity, perspective and rational."

    "Of course not at any cost good sir..."

    emphasis added...

    do you have any idea how condescending and pompous your writing is whenever you posts are questioned? and here i thought i was bad and needed to continue to work hard to overcome that. you seem to work hard to make a point of it.

    "good sir"? good grief.

    "to provide clarity, perspective and rational [sic]"? from you personally or from dba as their representative or spokesperson?

    "i am not supportive"? personally or as a representative/spokesperson for dba? please note this answer should be the same as for the one above.

    "having worked for an architect"? ffs, really? is that somehow better than having worked for a lawyer or a contractor or a planner or alberta health services or a plumber who knows what he's doing and what he's working with? do you not think real architects were involved with the programming and planning behind this decision?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Wouldn't on-going operational costs preclude Downtown almost immediately, given that there's no space to expand in the core
    Its called leasing more floors or space in neighboring buildings, it happens all the time with growing businesses in downtowns all over the world, its how downtowns grow, and a lab hardly needs high end space, any class B or C building will do.
    It's like you think this is an administrative office & not the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory.
    I think having the centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory in the center of the city, where it is at the moment and where there is lots of free space (I'm sure could easily rent an entire building), makes more sense than a non-centralized centralized clinical diagnostic laboratory that destroys a soccer field in the wop-wops.
    you think? i think not.

    while there may be lots of "free space", there isn't any level 3 or level 4 or level 5 lab space that i'm aware of.

    and if you need a lot of level 3 or level 4 or level 5 lab space, it's a damn site less expensive to build it from scratch than it is to retrofit space that isn't appropriate for it.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    I get that building owners are concerned about the DT vacancy rate.I get that restauarant and shop owners are concerned about walk-in traffic.

    But, it's not up to the taxpayers of Alberta to take care of that.It's up to owners to make their business / building attractive to business. WSP Tower re-clad anyone?

    DT has to move past its reliance on government. What the DBA should be doing is working with the chamber and others to attract and grow new private sector businesses DT.

    It's not complicated - invest, not beg.
    ... gobsmacked

  60. #60

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    This is not a remote, isolated location that we're talking about. It's central, next to transit and next to a bunch of other higher-impact uses that aren't going anywhere. I don't expect too much, but it would be nice if the design were at least compatible with a densifying district, at least matching the two closest buildings in height (3 stories) and laid out in a way that future developments on the provincial lands that aren't mostly closed to the public like a lab understandably is would make a bit of an urban neighbourhood.

    The number of parking stalls is a bit of a worry. I hope that it's operated on a cost-recovery basis like other Alberta Health Facilities are.
    There can only be one.

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    My understanding is that they needed a hefty footprint so they can expand their lab services offerings as well. Some of the analytical stuff is sent over the border for analysis. This is mainly due to size constraints at their existing facilities.

    This is also not just about Dynalife... but every single lab service that is currently completed at the various Capital region hospitals. This is also centralizing certain analyses for the entire province for items not needing "immediate results." I believe the AHS lab services personnel dwarf the amount of Dynalife personnel going to this new facility.

    My knowledge is limited to whatever my wife tells me, as she works for one of the UofA Hospital Labs that is likely being slated to be part of the move.

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    I have unapproved some posts that were over the top on being insulting and inflammatory. Please keep the angst against any individual down, and debate the points please.
    Ow

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    IanO, have you spoke with any folks that agree that the move is a good idea? It seems you only want to represent the people that support your agenda already (much like you did during your tenure with DECL)
    Having worked for an architect, I agree that a dedicated building for a specialized use is probably reasonable, but given the cost, timing and impact... I am not supportive.

    Please once again refer to our role, agenda, mandate. This is something we simply cannot support for a variety of reasons and have many others Downtown who support our decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You might want to take the rest of the day off from C2E. It's not gonna be your day around these parts.
    If there is any day to be around, this is one of them to provide some clarity, perspective and rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ...

    But please recognize our mandate and role, in that we are here to retain jobs and employers in the Downtown, not on South Campus.
    Retain jobs downtown at any cost? Would the DBA be happy keeping the jobs downtown even if doing so could be demonstrated to negatively affect healthcare?
    Of course not at any cost good sir, but having spoken with many folks on this matter over the last year and following the whole Dynacare/Dynalife/Australian/Cancellation/Reconsideration story, I am not convinced building a new lab and bringing it back as a public entity is the right move, at least not right now given the Provincial financial situation. Show me some numbers.
    "Having worked for an architect..."

    "...I am not supportive."

    "...to provide some clarity, perspective and rational."

    "Of course not at any cost good sir..."

    emphasis added...

    do you have any idea how condescending and pompous your writing is whenever you posts are questioned? and here i thought i was bad and needed to continue to work hard to overcome that. you seem to work hard to make a point of it.

    "good sir"? good grief.

    "to provide clarity, perspective and rational [sic]"? from you personally or from dba as their representative or spokesperson?

    "i am not supportive"? personally or as a representative/spokesperson for dba? please note this answer should be the same as for the one above.

    "having worked for an architect"? ffs, really? is that somehow better than having worked for a lawyer or a contractor or a planner or alberta health services or a plumber who knows what he's doing and what he's working with? do you not think real architects were involved with the programming and planning behind this decision?
    Ian speaks for all of downtown like Kenney speaks for all Albertans: with extreme bias, and without their consent.
    "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction" - Blaise Pascal

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    Ian if not now when? As you seem to think the UCP will be elected next year it could be another 40 years before the much needed lab gets built.

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    The population centre of the city is moving south at an ever increasing rate and will continue to do so as the airport lands and surrounding properties get developed. Additionally the city has annexed a massive amount of land or has agreed to do so. Having the lab south of the river strategically makes a lot of sense.

  66. #66

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    I can't see any real basis to arguments for south side over north side. The north side will also continue to grow, and a location say alongside NAIT would be as convenient to a major hospital as the south campus is to UofA, as well as equal access to a freeway and vacant publicly owned land.

    The difference is this land is owned by the province, not the city, it has better transit access and is adjacent to existing provincial facilities.

    Has there been any indication whether this new lab would include the collecting/retail/public side? Being right on the LRT line it would be a decent location to stop if your docter needs you to give a sample.
    There can only be one.

  67. #67

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    I just want this finalized and built anywhere in Edmonton before the UCP comes in, cancels it, and then builds it in Calgary at a later date.

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Has there been any indication whether this new lab would include the collecting/retail/public side? Being right on the LRT line it would be a decent location to stop if your docter needs you to give a sample.
    Strictly back-of-house, no collecting.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Has there been any indication whether this new lab would include the collecting/retail/public side? Being right on the LRT line it would be a decent location to stop if your docter needs you to give a sample.

    Yes, Top_Dawg heard that they will have a collection box right on the LRT platform where patients can drop off their dirty shorts.

    If you are fast enough you may even be able to get back on the same train.

  70. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    I just want this finalized and built anywhere in Edmonton before the UCP comes in, cancels it, and then builds it in Calgary at a later date.
    Its more likely the other way round - NDP desperately needs votes in Calgary to have any hope of forming next government. UCP would be looking for votes in Edmonton (although may not need it if can form Calgary / rural coalition).

  71. #71

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    The site is ok, the GoA owns the land. I would have put my money on the Golden west lands in the north end. The infrastructure needed for any new lab is more demanding than when they built downtown. 2015 Alberta Infrastructure Guidelines, The 2010 Blue Book, CSA Z317.2 and Z316.5 all dictate a much more substantial facility. From what I read there will be specialty lab and testing facility with patient walk in.
    Currently involved with Lab upgrades at 5 medical centres.

  72. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    I just want this finalized and built anywhere in Edmonton before the UCP comes in, cancels it, and then builds it in Calgary at a later date.
    Its more likely the other way round - NDP desperately needs votes in Calgary to have any hope of forming next government. UCP would be looking for votes in Edmonton (although may not need it if can form Calgary / rural coalition).
    Calgary got the Cancer centre, and the south Medical Campus a few years ago. we got......an announcement that we may in the next few years get a new SW Hospital Campus and up grades to another one. None of that money has been allocated as far as I can see.

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    I am probably more surprised to the reaction that IanO and the DBA are not happy with the move out of the core than with the position that the DBA (via extension of its hired leader/spokesperson) is taking. To expect that the DBA does not like losing headcount is like being surprised that union leaders dislike headcount losses.

    It is also surprising that there is this large of an amount of angst at how much the conversation has shifted to downtown. I think most of us can remember a time where there was zero conversation about anything downtown. Like all normal change of cycles, there usually is a pendulum swing so far in the other direction before the market or process corrects itself. The conversation over the past 4 years has become one that can be summed up with the new anthem of, “downtown, downtown, über alles”. It even manifested itself when a rural community was losing immigration jobs to downtown Edmonton, and the downtown cabal couldn’t care less about the devastation done to a community, and wouldn’t dare tolerate those jobs going anywhere else but downtown. So my only criticism is that the conversation may have gone too far in the other direction and needs to correct itself to where it belongs.

    That said, when it comes to this specific conversation, I can completely agree with the move out of the downtown core. I may not be an architect, but I’m a 25 year consultant that's done logistics and manufacturing for a diverse group of clients. Throw in a smattering of organizational change management, and the move out of downtown makes nothing but logical sense. Given the mandate and mission of a lab of this scope, given the location of most of the major medical facilities in this city, and given the far-flung nature of many of the medical centres and smaller clinics, putting this downtown and forcing all that traffic into the core is foolhardy. The LRT means absolutely nothing to this lab outside of potential employee transportation. The lab needs to gather samples from many disparate locations that are not serviced by rapid transit. That means cars. Forcing these cars to negotiate downtown traffic is silly, especially since the downtown has done everything possible to choke itself off from easy access including the rather haphazard addition of the bicycle lanes.

    The South Campus location makes sense for many reasons. It has flowing accesses on the Whitemud, Argyle, Gateway, Henday, and Groat Road. It is adjacent to one of the largest training institutions in the city, and one of the largest hospitals in the city. The existing Misericordia hospital (and its replacement location), along with the Grey Nuns, are all on easy access routes. Hospitals in Stony Plain, Devon, Leduc, Sherwood Park, and St. Albert have relatively easy freeway access. Most of the medical clinics are outside of the downtown core. There is significant growth south. Deliveries can be easily made without adding more congestion to an already congested downtown, and one that could get more congested with more appropriate businesses if they were ever sourced. If this facility is to take in tests from throughout the province and elsewhere, then putting it outside of the downtown core makes even more sense and potentially looking at spots in Windermere come into play.

    The only other potential location that makes sense would be on the Blatchford lands. It would be adjacent to the largest hospital in Alberta (the Royal Alexandria Hospital), adjacent to a significant teaching institution in the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology, (and still close enough to Grant McEwan), have the available land to build, and immediately adjacent to the Yellowhead, Henday, Wayne Gretzky Drive, and all the periphery hospitals and extended routes just like the South Campus location.

    So I will gladly sit with Ian and talk about this in very simple, matter-of-fact conversation. It is unfortunate that a change in government was brought up because not only would a more conservative government put this facility outside of the downtown core for the very reasons I just mentioned, it shouldn’t be a political administration conversation in any way. I have my concerns with the current administration on some specific files, but I also have some serious concerns with the opposition party vying to become the administration of the Alberta government. My opinion on the specific files doesn’t change depending on who’s in power.

    Again, I get the Downtown Business Association’s position. I don’t agree with it, it is a bit self-serving, but their mandate is to promote the downtown and to keep businesses downtown – hence why am absolutely not surprised with their stance. I do hope that the city overall starts thinking regionally instead of just talking about it… because that to me is the number one killer of our progress. Egocentrism need not apply…
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Good post, Richard.
    Almost always open to debate...

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    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    As opposed to the old or current government? Is that official DBA policy, delay and obstruct until there's a government more to you liking?

    We're talking about a new, purpose built, state of the art lab facility that doesn't have to be shoehorned into a space that was intended as retail. And doesn't keeping the Dynalab in the Manulife II podium stand in the way of potentially redeveloping that site? I'd rather have something that connected the podium more to the street than something that only lets it's people out for lunch.

    What about the new SW hospital? Do you and the DBA intend to oppose that as well in hopes of getting it built downtown?

    Downtown is the heart of the city but it needs the rest of the body to live as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    for the record, in the context of this conversation - or even just in the context of that post in particular - what's the difference between a "change in government" and a "new government"?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Certainly, but is this the right time given the vacancy rates, costs, priorities, fiscal condition of the Province? Ask yourself that.

    What impact is there when you move 1000-1200 people from the middle of your city to a single use building with little around it. Economic multipliers come into play.

    This isn't about a different Government, it is about being fiscally prudent, responsible and focussing on critical issues to right the Province.

    Period.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    for the record, in the context of this conversation - or even just in the context of that post in particular - what's the difference between a "change in government" and a "new government"?
    Come on now Ken.

    An election is forthcoming and be it the NDP or another, we WILL have a new Government.

    Is this expenditure the right one at the right time? I say no.

    Will this have a negative impact on the Downtown, absolutely.
    www.decl.org

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  80. #80

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    And is it appropriate for the DBA to be picking political sides?

    Where does the DBA get all their funding? Is there a contribution from the city or the province?

    Maybe it's time that I decide to support the rest of the city and leave downtown to fend for itself. Or at least stop patronizing those businesses that are members of the DBA. Where can I find a list of member businesses?

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    We didn't and do not. Our intent is to work constructively with all three orders of Government.

    Funding is from a levy from those within our boundaries.

    You can learn more about all 13 BIAs here:

    https://www.edmonton.ca/business_eco...ent-areas.aspx
    www.decl.org

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  82. #82

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    So, everyone downtown is now working to prevent the construction of the new lab?

    OK, downtown is off my list of destinations. Screw them for putting their selfishness ahead of the good of the rest of the city and the entire capital region.

    I'll be contacting all the business I regularly visit and letting them know that they've lost me as a customer and telling them exactly why until the DBA stops their obstructionism.

    Thanks for the heads up Ian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    I can't see any real basis to arguments for south side over north side. The north side will also continue to grow, and a location say alongside NAIT would be as convenient to a major hospital as the south campus is to UofA, as well as equal access to a freeway and vacant publicly owned land.
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    It is adjacent to one of the largest training institutions in the city, and one of the largest hospitals in the city. The existing Misericordia hospital (and its replacement location), along with the Grey Nuns, are all on easy access routes. Hospitals in Stony Plain, Devon, Leduc, Sherwood Park, and St. Albert have relatively easy freeway access.
    I could be wrong, but I think that it's not so much access to hospitals per se that's important, but rather the UofA in particular.

    From the article in the OP:

    Alberta Health Services CEO Dr. Verna Yiu said the new facility will be “unique in Canada” in its integration of clinical, research and teaching functions.
    From Paula Simon's piece:

    The Edmonton Clinical Laboratory Hub will be able to do everything from high-volume blood tests to sophisticated genetic testing. In partnership with the University of Alberta, the lab will also be an academic centre that will integrate clinical, research and teaching functions.
    Grammar lessons now with 10% less snark!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So, everyone downtown is now working to prevent the construction of the new lab?

    OK, downtown is off my list of destinations. Screw them for putting their selfishness ahead of the good of the rest of the city and the entire capital region.

    I'll be contacting all the business I regularly visit and letting them know that they've lost me as a customer and telling them exactly why until the DBA stops their obstructionism.

    Thanks for the heads up Ian.
    Far from, but we all are mindful of our Provincial finances, vacancies in both Edmonton and Calgary and priorities to correct where we are now. This does not align or support any of that.

    BIAs represent, support and advocate for very specific geographic areas. If a BIA from any part of the city believes it is ok to sit idly by when a major employer of that area is potentially leaving, they are not representing their area, members (all for profit businesses within that boundary) or their organization.

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    I have to agree everyone that thinks the south campus location is a decent location. Medical laboratory work requires reliable transport from various locations. The government could have chose a worse location, they could have proposed having it on the outskirts near the Anthony Henday, away from LRT, hey could have proposed having it at EIA. The south campus location has an LRT stop right beside it that has been a joke ever since the station was built. Edmonton should never have built an LRT station in the middle of nowhere. The void left in Manulife 2 will be filled up with something more appropriate for the area, what comes there will be better than the existing laboratory.

    IanO, you should be working on ways to fill the soon to be empty space in Manulife 2, being proactive in that area will insure the space gets used sooner than later.
    Last edited by ThomasH; 09-01-2018 at 06:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    for the record, in the context of this conversation - or even just in the context of that post in particular - what's the difference between a "change in government" and a "new government"?
    Come on now Ken.

    An election is forthcoming and be it the NDP or another, we WILL have a new Government.

    Is this expenditure the right one at the right time? I say no.

    Will this have a negative impact on the Downtown, absolutely.
    come on now IanO...

    a new term does not a new government make, at least not in terms of policy and direction and decision-making.

    is this expenditure the right one at the right time? if you want to play semantics, it's a current decision and commitment, not a current expenditure. furthermore, even if the province were to try and expand the downtown lab and/or add additional system capacity to the downtown lab, the expenditure is going to be pretty much the same and incurred on pretty much the same timetable.

    will this have a negative impact on the downtown? short-term possibly. but no more than if they were moving as a result of having been given notice by manulife at the time or aimco at the moment to build what you described - if i can paraphrase by memory - the nicest proposed tower at the time, perfect in all regards, on the best office tower site in downtown.

    besides, the lab isn't leaving downtown to save a buck. they're leaving downtown because it makes better business sense for them and their client base to no longer be downtown.

    sort of like what you said about servus moving their head office to a research and development park. you know, because their client base is largely rural and they want to differentiate themselves from 'the big four'.

    or is that different because you used to work for the architect that looked after that relocation for them to a building further away from their previous premises than downtown would have been? from my perspective, a head office like servus belongs downtown a lot more and would contribute a lot more than a medical lab.
    Last edited by kcantor; 09-01-2018 at 06:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So, everyone downtown is now working to prevent the construction of the new lab?

    OK, downtown is off my list of destinations. Screw them for putting their selfishness ahead of the good of the rest of the city and the entire capital region.

    I'll be contacting all the business I regularly visit and letting them know that they've lost me as a customer and telling them exactly why until the DBA stops their obstructionism.

    Thanks for the heads up Ian.
    Far from, but we all are mindful of our Provincial finances, vacancies in both Edmonton and Calgary and priorities to correct where we are now. This does not align or support any of that.

    BIAs represent, support and advocate for very specific geographic areas. If a BIA from any part of the city believes it is ok to sit idly by when a major employer of that area is potentially leaving, they are not representing their area, members (all for profit businesses within that boundary) or their organization.

    We are for Downtown, not for dilution of it.
    You should also be for what is best for Edmonton as a whole as opposed to just a small part of it. Until the DBA learns that the city doesn't stop at the border of downtown, I'll be spending my discretionary funds elsewhere.

    Yes, Dynalife moving out of downtown in a few years is a small blow to downtown but the area as a whole has gained much, much more in the past few years than it's losing. Don't forget, Stantec was mostly based outside of the DBA area before the new tower came along. Maybe Oliver should have been whining to the Journal about Downtown poaching one of their resident businesses and petitioning the city to deny the building of the Stantec Tower. Oh, but that's totally different because it benefited downtown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    for the record, in the context of this conversation - or even just in the context of that post in particular - what's the difference between a "change in government" and a "new government"?
    Come on now Ken.

    An election is forthcoming and be it the NDP or another, we WILL have a new Government.

    Is this expenditure the right one at the right time? I say no.

    Will this have a negative impact on the Downtown, absolutely.
    Since when is the DBA in the business of criticizing government spending in general? Since the DBA has skin in the game in the form of lobbying to keep up the daytime downtown population, this argument lacks credibility.

    Also, if you truly intended "new government" to mean "a new term regardless of the party in power", then that was a silly choice of words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    You should also be for what is best for Edmonton as a whole as opposed to just a small part of it. Until the DBA learns that the city doesn't stop at the border of downtown, I'll be spending my discretionary funds elsewhere.
    Ummm you're missing the "Downtown" part of Downtown Business Association.

    Otherwise it would be called the Edmonton Business Association, which I believe would be the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce.

    If you are interested in more than just slagging -something- you ought to talk to the ECC.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    IanO, you should be working on ways to fill the soon to be empty space in Manulife 2, being proactive in that area will insure the space gets used sooner than later.
    I'm with ThomasH and several others here. The DBA should be doing more to attract more retailers, head offices, startups, etc to the downtown core.

    BTW Ian, how do you feel now about that Servus HQ out near South Edmonton Common? Because your former company was involved in the repurposing of the former Dell building, I vividly recall you justifying this move (more attractive for rural folk who don't want to come downtown) while I and several others felt it should have been in a downtown tower as per other financial institution HQs. I would say the superlab at South Campus makes more sense than Servus's move.
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    I think we can all agree that the current medical lab in downtown is embarrassing to look at since it was a 'make work project' from the '90s. I would love to see that scar from our past removed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BalancedOP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    I just want this finalized and built anywhere in Edmonton before the UCP comes in, cancels it, and then builds it in Calgary at a later date.
    Its more likely the other way round - NDP desperately needs votes in Calgary to have any hope of forming next government. UCP would be looking for votes in Edmonton (although may not need it if can form Calgary / rural coalition).
    Calgary got the Cancer centre, and the south Medical Campus a few years ago. we got......an announcement that we may in the next few years get a new SW Hospital Campus and up grades to another one. None of that money has been allocated as far as I can see.
    the southern half of the province - through calgary laboratory services - already operates in a manner similar to what is being proposed for here in edmonton.
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    There are so many advantages for the South Campus location, I'm surprised anyone is still debating it. Among the advantages. The site is already owned by the province. It's on the U of A South Campus where most future development will take place due to land constraints on the North Campus. It's right next to an LRT station. It's adjacent to other provincial labs like OS Longman.

    While the Edmonton lab will be newer and more advanced than its Calgary counterpart, it will likely have a similar design (3 to 4 storeys in height with room for loading docks and ancilliary buildings). Aerial photo of the Calgary lab here: https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.08357...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

    The super-lab is just not well suited for a downtown location.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    I think we can all agree that the current medical lab in downtown is embarrassing to look at since it was a 'make work project' from the '90s. I would love to see that scar from our past removed.
    Well, I think most of us would agree - along with the Staples on 101 st (thank goodness gone now), the old Baccarat building and a few other "gems" of the grunge era too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So, everyone downtown is now working to prevent the construction of the new lab?

    OK, downtown is off my list of destinations. Screw them for putting their selfishness ahead of the good of the rest of the city and the entire capital region.

    I'll be contacting all the business I regularly visit and letting them know that they've lost me as a customer and telling them exactly why until the DBA stops their obstructionism.

    Thanks for the heads up Ian.
    Far from, but we all are mindful of our Provincial finances, vacancies in both Edmonton and Calgary and priorities to correct where we are now. This does not align or support any of that.

    BIAs represent, support and advocate for very specific geographic areas. If a BIA from any part of the city believes it is ok to sit idly by when a major employer of that area is potentially leaving, they are not representing their area, members (all for profit businesses within that boundary) or their organization.

    We are for Downtown, not for dilution of it.
    if you really wanted to be mindful of everyone's end objectives instead of whining, you would have dba encouraging the lab to move as planned; to see the development of an expanded cluster relationship between the u of a and the lab and the private sector; and for the province to give neil crawford centre back to the u of a to house that cluster, along with some of their other expansion needs, and move a few thousand provincial government employees back downtown where they belong. that would be mindful on all fronts by all parties.
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    kcantor for DBA Executive Director!
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    I am unsure why people here are so confused about a BIA defending its existing employment base.

    Are there opportunities if and when Dynalife moves, absolutely, but a bird in the hand.

    We are funded by and represent Downtown Businesses who rely on patrons from nearby residences, visitors and employers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    for the record, in the context of this conversation - or even just in the context of that post in particular - what's the difference between a "change in government" and a "new government"?
    Come on now Ken.

    An election is forthcoming and be it the NDP or another, we WILL have a new Government.

    Is this expenditure the right one at the right time? I say no.

    Will this have a negative impact on the Downtown, absolutely.
    Ian, take this as the friendly advice that it is and not me chastising.

    You’re splitting hairs when you’re saying change of government versus new government. Nobody in a very general colloquial sense differentiates between “change of” or new. The biggest reason why? The Government of Alberta exists in perpetuity. Unless some major force comes and dissolves either Canada or the Province of Alberta, the Government of Alberta will continue to be there. It is the governing administration that will change. The new administration will inherit all the best parts, all of the sins of the previous one, and can and will be sued for, applauded for, or chastised for their actions on the actions of the previous administration. Does that sound confusing? I hope not. That is why the United States always talks about administrations. The government of the US does not go away according to the Constitution. Who administers it changes.

    So, you are suggesting that the new administration, or change of administration, could or would make a difference. That entails at its core a complete change in the administrating party, or for an outlier, a minority government consisting of the current administration augmented by people from the opposite point of view. We all know how minority governments can stand up. Therefore, if there is no change in the administrating party of the Alberta Government, then there is no new administrating party of the Alberta Government regardless of the number of seats won. By suggesting new government, your words are being understandably interpreted as brand-new administration. If the current administrative party wins, there is no change, and there is no new.

    That’s the danger of even suggesting that your position could be helped or hindered by a new administration. Very few people consider the 44 years of Progressive Conservative rule in the Province of Alberta as new government regardless of the premier and or caucus running the administrating party. Everybody calls it 44 years of Tory rule. Unfortunately, by merely stating new government, you’ve quite easily and readily fallen into the political trap of, accidentally or otherwise, advocating for a change in administration. Welcome to politics. It’s a blood sport.

    You may feel this expenditure is wrong now. Understandable. However, don’t be surprised when people interpret that fiscal prudence as organizational selfishness versus an understanding or empathy for the taxpayer. Odds are very high this expenditure is going to happen anyway regardless of administration. The current set up downtown was always temporary. When it was announced, it was announced to be temporary. I can understand, empathize, and support the stance that the Downtown Business Association is extremely concerned about the loss of headcount. I can understand, empathize, and support the stance that the Downtown Business Association is concerned about the trickle-down effect of losing that headcount without having anything in the wings readily available to absorb that headcount loss. I can understand, empathize, and support the Downtown Business Association being a bit selfish and trying to lobby to keep the headcount downtown and to research ways to make that fiscally prudent. I cannot understand, empathize, and support the DBA’s stance that it is fiscally irresponsible look at this move, to look at this consolidation, or to look at this in a holistic standpoint that takes every possible neighbourhood into account – because quite simply, it’s going to take a lot of convincing to talk to people about a downtown location being the most prudent when the scope, mandate, and execution of this lab virtually necessitates it having a large, sprawling floor plate immediately adjacent (or as close as possible) to a large research, training, and delivery centre such as the University of Alberta. I think the DBA can understand the term location, location, location. Downtown just doesn’t have it on this one.

    You’re spending a lot of unnecessary political capital on this. Take it for what it’s worth, but my opinion would be that the DBA’s position should be that you understand the complex nature of healthcare delivery services, that the DBA's asking to be included in this conversation so that it can be able to assist the Government of Alberta research its options for the downtown location so that an apples to apples comparison can be made. Leave new or old or current administrations out of it. This lab, should it be built, will be done hopefully on a very empirical basis. Frankly my friend, a downtown location would have avery large uphill battle in convincing anyone that a lab of the scope belongs there.

    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Not to troll anyone here lol.. but I actually heard some news in regards to this Lab. "They" have expressed interest on the north side; around past 137ave out toward St.Albert area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I am probably more surprised to the reaction that IanO and the DBA are not happy with the move out of the core than with the position that the DBA (via extension of its hired leader/spokesperson) is taking. To expect that the DBA does not like losing headcount is like being surprised that union leaders dislike headcount losses.

    ...
    I for one am not surprised by the DBA's position; that doesn't stop me from pointing out how distasteful it is.

    Moreover--unlike others who discount the DBA's influence--I have concerns that their influence actually carries some weight. Certainly their position on this matter has been echoed by municipal politicians:

    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...alife-downtown

    Mayor Don Iveson said a potential Dynalife move is “a very real concern for us as we try to build a more dynamic downtown.”

    Provincial officials should consider renovating and expanding the current lab because “it’s a great employment node for downtown,” he said.
    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...-stay-downtown
    Edmonton’s major downtown DynaLife health lab has signed a new lease to March 2022, giving hope to those who want its 700 downtown employees to stay put.

    “It’s great news and will give everyone time for sober second thought,” said Coun. Scott McKeen, a vocal opponent of a provincial plan to create a new super lab facility outside of downtown.

    Edmonton needs continued investment in downtown, not a flight from the centre, he said, suggesting the province supported that approach in years past.
    http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonto...-location.html
    Ward 6 Coun. Scott McKeen said he's disappointed about the hundreds of staff potentially leaving downtown, and will fight the move if it’s not in the city’s best interests.

    He's concerned how the relocation could affect businesses, transit use and the overall vibrancy of downtown.

    "It will cause further downtown office vacancy. Their move undermines a tremendous amount of good work by the private sector and I would argue by the City of Edmonton to raise the fortunes of our downtown."

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