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Thread: Provincial Super Lab - South Campus

  1. #101
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    Rich - As always, I appreciate your mature responses with thoughtful comments, even if I disagree in part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I am unsure why people here are so confused about a BIA defending its existing employment base.

    Are there opportunities if and when Dynalife moves, absolutely, but a bird in the hand.

    We are funded by and represent Downtown Businesses who rely on patrons from nearby residences, visitors and employers.
    I think most people DO get the predicament, and that if the DBA wanted to defend its employment base, it should.

    What they don't get is...

    a) why the DBA would even dare mention any change in administration helping or hurting their cause,
    b) the unnecessary political capital spent on what is most likely the wrong windmill to tilt at, and
    c) why the DBA isn't pushing harder for new businesses to come to Edmonton and locate downtown...or for new ones to start thinking downtown from Day 1.

    It's about spending your time and resources attracting more appropriate businesses that can exist in a cubicle farm, open floorplate, or readily accessible existing space. Labs...not so much. It is more a question of form, fit, and function. Remember...we aren't Tokyo or Manhattan. People and labs here do have a choice...
    Onward and upward

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by piglet View Post
    Not to troll anyone here lol.. but I actually heard some news in regards to this Lab. "They" have expressed interest on the north side; around past 137ave out toward St.Albert area.

    One of the proposals had the site in the old Golden west golf course site, Now owned by Qualico I believe. Mr kantor can correct me if I am wrong.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    So, everyone downtown is now working to prevent the construction of the new lab?

    OK, downtown is off my list of destinations. Screw them for putting their selfishness ahead of the good of the rest of the city and the entire capital region.

    I'll be contacting all the business I regularly visit and letting them know that they've lost me as a customer and telling them exactly why until the DBA stops their obstructionism.

    Thanks for the heads up Ian.
    Far from, but we all are mindful of our Provincial finances, vacancies in both Edmonton and Calgary and priorities to correct where we are now. This does not align or support any of that.

    BIAs represent, support and advocate for very specific geographic areas. If a BIA from any part of the city believes it is ok to sit idly by when a major employer of that area is potentially leaving, they are not representing their area, members (all for profit businesses within that boundary) or their organization.

    We are for Downtown, not for dilution of it.
    (Emphasis added)

    So the DBA is advocating for intervening in the policies and planning of a publicly-funded concern (potentially to the detriment of all Alberta taxpayers and, in particular, patients of the healthcare system) in order to support the bottom lines of for profit businesses downtown?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Rich - As always, I appreciate your mature responses with thoughtful comments, even if I disagree in part.
    It is ok to disagree...just don't be disagreeable. A very wise CAF member told me that...and I live by it.
    Onward and upward

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BalancedOP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B.ike View Post
    I just want this finalized and built anywhere in Edmonton before the UCP comes in, cancels it, and then builds it in Calgary at a later date.
    Its more likely the other way round - NDP desperately needs votes in Calgary to have any hope of forming next government. UCP would be looking for votes in Edmonton (although may not need it if can form Calgary / rural coalition).
    Calgary got the Cancer centre, and the south Medical Campus a few years ago. we got......an announcement that we may in the next few years get a new SW Hospital Campus and up grades to another one. None of that money has been allocated as far as I can see.
    the southern half of the province - through calgary laboratory services - already operates in a manner similar to what is being proposed for here in edmonton.

    Yes I agree, this will also have more research facilities and specialized procedure usually only done in a hospital setting.

    And to add to the dog pile.

    I disagree Ian, this is the right time to build it. Design and Construction costs are way down, yes there is a debt but with cost down it makes more sense than say during the boom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I am probably more surprised to the reaction that IanO and the DBA are not happy with the move out of the core than with the position that the DBA (via extension of its hired leader/spokesperson) is taking. To expect that the DBA does not like losing headcount is like being surprised that union leaders dislike headcount losses.

    ...
    I for one am not surprised by the DBA's position; that doesn't stop me from pointing out how distasteful it is.

    Moreover--unlike others who discount the DBA's influence--I have concerns that their influence actually carries some weight. Certainly their position on this matter has been echoed by municipal politicians:

    (...edited for brevity. See post 100 for the articles) RichardS
    ...which is exactly what I am saying as well...the whole downtown above all attitude that has arisen post 2005. The contradictions that has brought forth are predictable, somewhat understandable, but highly entertaining from my OCM viewpoint.

    They are also concerning as you lay out. I know that in my Airshow world, this downtown attitude hit when some in administration and council lamented that the Airshow wasn't downtown. I just smiled and let that irony sink in... ...but the attitude can be concerning when defending the turf can become readily embroiled in...er...here or else...
    Onward and upward

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I am unsure why people here are so confused about a BIA defending its existing employment base.

    Are there opportunities if and when Dynalife moves, absolutely, but a bird in the hand.

    We are funded by and represent Downtown Businesses who rely on patrons from nearby residences, visitors and employers.
    I think most people DO get the predicament, and that if the DBA wanted to defend its employment base, it should.

    What they don't get is...

    a) why the DBA would even dare mention any change in administration helping or hurting their cause,
    b) the unnecessary political capital spent on what is most likely the wrong windmill to tilt at, and
    c) why the DBA isn't pushing harder for new businesses to come to Edmonton and locate downtown...or for new ones to start thinking downtown from Day 1.

    It's about spending your time and resources attracting more appropriate businesses that can exist in a cubicle farm, open floorplate, or readily accessible existing space. Labs...not so much. It is more a question of form, fit, and function. Remember...we aren't Tokyo or Manhattan. People and labs here do have a choice...
    a) publicly elected officials make decisions and those decisions impact future elections.
    b) Losing a major employer is worth an effort and resources.
    c) we most certainly are working on that and have an entire committee dedicated to just that.

    We all have choice and many of us are guided by mandate.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    (...)

    a) why the DBA would even dare mention any change in administration helping or hurting their cause,
    b) the unnecessary political capital spent on what is most likely the wrong windmill to tilt at, and
    c) why the DBA isn't pushing harder for new businesses to come to Edmonton and locate downtown...or for new ones to start thinking downtown from Day 1.

    It's about spending your time and resources attracting more appropriate businesses that can exist in a cubicle farm, open floorplate, or readily accessible existing space. Labs...not so much. It is more a question of form, fit, and function. Remember...we aren't Tokyo or Manhattan. People and labs here do have a choice...
    a) publicly elected officials make decisions and those decisions impact future elections.
    b) Losing a major employer is worth an effort and resources.
    c) we most certainly are working on that and have an entire committee dedicated to just that.

    We all have choice and many of us are guided by mandate.

    Awesome...ok...to counter...

    a) this decision won't affect the outcome of the forthcoming election. Not...one...iota. The political makeup of the province precludes this. Trust me....I have a $1.6B boondoggle in my backyard...and the electorate cares nada!
    b) True. However...this one has been effectively gonzo for about 24 -36 months now. Better capital would be spent on working with all levels of gov't on your answer to c)
    c) ...then that committee should stop tilting at this windmill outside lamenting the loss in b). ...and maybe take the advice of working with a) to get a seat at the table. Effectively...the DBA may have lost it with the new administration comment.
    Onward and upward

  10. #110
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    If a $400-500,000,000 decision does not impact people's decision on fiscal responsibility, then nothing will I guess.

    We have seats at the table and work collectively with all orders of Government and that is not always easy, but we all want a stronger Alberta.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I am unsure why people here are so confused about a BIA defending its existing employment base.

    Are there opportunities if and when Dynalife moves, absolutely, but a bird in the hand.

    We are funded by and represent Downtown Businesses who rely on patrons from nearby residences, visitors and employers.
    nobody is confused about a bia defending its existing employment base.

    the confusion arises from tilting at windmills trying to defend an existing employment base that is not terribly well suited for downtown from their perspective, their landlord's perspective or downtown's perspective.

    dynalife is not "a bird in the hand", as has been repeatedly demonstrated, and even more than most businesses they need long-term reliable tenure, something that is not available in their current location or necessarily even in downtown's long term interest. whose to say what the long term cost is of lost business and residential occupancies in and around that podium for the next 40 years by those not wanting to co-locate with a level 4 or 5 lab dealing with hazardous human and environmental waste?

    if and when dynalife moves needs to be up to them, not the local bia, and they have made what appears to be a good business decision for them and the province and in the long-term probably for your bia as well. i think the appropriate expression in the circumstances might well be "suck it up charlie".

    furthermore, in addition to defending it's existing employment base where and when appropriate, it's a bia's role to develop and maintain relationships with its members and, on behalf of its members, with the city who assesses and collects and distributes the bia tax and simply hands it over to you, with other bia's, and with other levels of government. those relationships need to be impartial, respectful and non-political whether you are dealing with administrations or the respective bodies politic. and don't forget that, at least until the move is completed, dynacare is also one of your constituent members and has contributed substantially to dba's efforts since the day they moved in and continues to fund your efforts.
    Last edited by kcantor; 09-01-2018 at 07:49 PM.
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  12. #112
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    We have had direct conversations with our Mayor, Councillor, MLA, Minister and many members. The consensus is that we want Dynalife to remain where it is. Period.
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  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    If a $400-500,000,000 decision does not impact people's decision on fiscal responsibility, then nothing will I guess.

    We have seats at the table and work collectively with all orders of Government and that is not always easy, but we all want a stronger Alberta.
    That figure is remarkably close to the cost of Rogers Place. Where was the DBA's deference to fiscal responsibility when that was being debated?

  14. #114
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    Reaching there.
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    "I actually heard some news in regards to this Lab. "They" have expressed interest on the north side; around past 137ave out toward St.Albert area.
    One of the proposals had the site in the old Golden west golf course site, Now owned by Qualico I believe. Mr kantor can correct me if I am wrong."
    Having read these comments above, the south campus location is a million times better.
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

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    ^^Hardly. You only want fiscal prudence when the spending doesn't suit downtown.
    “Son, one day this will be an iconic structure shaping Edmonton’s skyline.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    ^^Hardly. You only want fiscal prudence when the spending doesn't suit downtown.
    Last time I checked, the ROI on the public dollars for the arena were significant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    If a $400-500,000,000 decision does not impact people's decision on fiscal responsibility, then nothing will I guess.

    We have seats at the table and work collectively with all orders of Government and that is not always easy, but we all want a stronger Alberta.

    Ian...I just mentioned a portion of a larger project that is 3-4x the $350M that this project is...and the whole boondoggle when put into place is 10-15x your highest $500M tag...and the electorate doesn't care...

    Politics. Blood sport...it isn't about the "fiscal prudence"...simply put... you don't have the votes. Not only does this lab not belong downtown for many of the reasons stated before, but that $350M+ will buy a heck of a lot more votes than two members of council, one MLA, and a partridge in a pear tree... This not only could be a political decision, but people here have argued quite convincingly that keeping it in situ could be even more fiscally irresponsible than the money spent consolidating it on a more logical site.

    It sucks for the landlord and for the overall community to lose 750+ headcount...but kcantor and others gave the DBA many correct alternate courses of action... I know you've inherited this position...but just like the GoA, your position inherits the sins and the salvations of the previous...and this lab was, again, gonzo 36+ months ago. It is just taking longer to come to fruition.

    I appreciate the fervor in wanting to keep several high paying jobs in your district - I wish you and the alleged several people/organizations/politicians supporting this in situ position or expansion luck...
    Onward and upward

  19. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesL View Post
    ^^Hardly. You only want fiscal prudence when the spending doesn't suit downtown.
    Last time I checked, the ROI on the public dollars for the arena were significant.
    And they may be for this move too, right?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We have had direct conversations with our Mayor, Councillor, MLA, Minister and many members. The consensus is that we want Dynalife to remain where it is. Period.
    wow...

    the consensus is that we want dynalife to remain where it is??? emphasis added.

    what happened to all those individuals supporting edmonton's health city initiatives?

    are you going to tell me that not only would you and the dba be quite happy, but that all of the parties you named would also be quite happy if one of the long-term supporting planks of that initiative is eliminated because keeping dynacare downtown and limiting their ability and the u of a's ability and the province's ability to collect and distribute "big data" in regard to health care needs and delivery and performance could not be met?

    https://edmontonhealthcity.ca/why-edmonton/

    https://www.edmonton.ca/city_governm...nitiative.aspx

    that would be reaching...

    as RichardS said, i have no idea why you insist on spending the limited amount of political capital we all have as individuals and organizations on this one. and i'm pretty sure that after grabbing the politically expedient emotional news headline of the day that's now lining the birdcage, our mayor, councillor, mla, minister and many members won't - and shouldn't - be prepared to make that same investment.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    This discussion brings back memories.

    DynaLIFE has been in a holding pattern for a lot longer than it has wanted to be. The space they are in has been totally inadequate for their purposes. And they can't just decide to lease some floors in the type of office towers that are built downtown. They need an isolated space that can be directly serviced by loading docks to bring samples, supplies and new equipment in and out. They were looking forward to getting out of their current digs into a space that they could design themselves that didn't involve the constraints that being downtown imposes.

    Previously, when I was arguing my points about the level of employment that DynaLIFE supports I was sneered at by the urbanistas here because, at the time, what was on the table was a brand spanking new office tower of glorious design and people wanted DynaLIFE gone. People, rightly or wrongly, want to replace this thing with an active streetscape. A lab cannot offer that because it has to be a closed environment. Not only do they deal with medical samples (many of which are hazardous materials) but their equipment is delicate and expensive. Everything is expensive. It cost them a fortune to move into the existing space. They want their next move to be expandable and designed correctly. I still am slightly agape at the poster, at the time, who suggested that a freight elevator was plenty adequate for their purposes.

    And before you get nostalgic about different governments ... the previous government was certainly not going to be building *their* version of the superlab downtown.

  22. #122

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    This discussion reminds me of the Kingsway Business Association's stance in the municipal airport debate 5 years? ago...
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  23. #123

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    I would imagine that the DBA would be in contact with Amazon and be slagging any location in Edmonton that they're thinking of that is not downtown. Tell them that they're making a big mistake if Amazon is even considering a location outside of the DBA boundary. After all, if you can make the other locations look bad, you look good by comparison, right?

    Seriously, the current situation with Dynalife does basically nothing to add to street life. There's no interaction between what is basically a bunker and downtown. The people go in. Some of them emerge for lunch. They go home. The rest of the day, it might as well be a solid block of concrete.

    The DBA has until 2022 to find a replacement or replacements. Four years to fill nothing more than a podium, not even a tower.

    But go ahead, keep fighting for this vital streetscape. Look at those papered over windows. Look at all the people not going in and out. Much better than talking with AimCo and trying to find something more vital for that space.

    https://www.google.ca/maps/@53.54257...7i13312!8i6656

    And if not South Campus, where downtown would you suggest building a building large enough to handle everything this new lab is supposed to, including tests that are currently sent out of city, province and country due to lack of space and specialized equipment? Where are you going to get land as basically no charge since the province already owns the south campus location? And what are you going to do when the new building results in zero street integration like the current location does?

    Downtown should be offices and retail and cultural spaces. A huge, single purpose building that would add nothng except for a lunch rush isn't what downtown needs.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 09-01-2018 at 08:55 PM.

  24. #124
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    Ian, just to try to walk a mile in your shoes (or moreappropriately being disabled, I’ll try and hobble 500 feet in your shoes) this would be my approach:

    A simple letter to Alberta’s Economic Development and Trade Minister, Deron Bilous…

    Dear Minister Bilous,

    Thank you for reading this letter.

    *Insert opening salutation here describing who you are*

    We are writing to express our concern of the loss of 750 high-paying headcount from Edmonton’s downtown core due to the recent Provincial announcement of the potential relocation of these the laboratory personnel to a new super lab to be built on the south side of the city. It is our organization's sincerest hope that we can retain the skilled professional workers in the downtown core; however, we respectfully abide by the decisions of the Province.

    Should it come to pass that the Province does decide that relocating to super lab versus expanding in situ is the proper course of action, we would like to have a seat at your table to discuss how we could assist you in diversifying Edmonton’s downtown economic opportunities. It is come to our understanding that you have made several trade missions over the past 24 months to various jurisdictions throughout the world. We are very interested in ensuring that not only Alberta prospers, but that downtown Edmonton can continue to enjoy its rise from the ashes. A healthy downtown is a healthy Edmonton.

    Of course, if there is a way we could also have a seat at the table on the relocation conversation of this super lab, we will respectfully accept that invitation and bring our points to the table.

    Thank you very much for your time.

    *Insert closing here *

    Just something I made up in the 5 minutes that my dinner is cooking. You’ll gain a lot more political capital with this approach than ever mentioning a new government. Just my $.02.

    You'll get an answer...you can then decide on a course of action afterward....
    Onward and upward

  25. #125
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    We have worked alongside Councillor McKeen on just that Rich.
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    I'm just glad the Edmonton region did not lose those jobs. Everything goes in cycle, DT has lots of new shiny towers, RAM, bike lanes, funiculars and the like. South Campus is not 100 KM from DT, its relatively close. Just as the arena spurred additional construction and opportunities, the move to South Campus may spur other opportunities in the health/medical field around that area.

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    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    All of which will cost the government more money to rent or acquire the land. At South Campus, the province already owns the land they want to build on.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  29. #129
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    The question then becomes, do we want single use buildings that have transit, but also significant parking facilities with little walkability or connectivity to other things around it, or a more integrated, thoughtful, connected urban centre.

    Do you want more Whyte Aves, 124sts, 118aves or South Edmonton Commons, Currents, power centres?

    We need to choose, design, plan and incorporate much more thoughtfully.
    Last edited by IanO; 09-01-2018 at 09:33 PM.
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  30. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Reaching there.
    Is it really reaching? You're suggesting that a $400 million investment into the healthcare system and efficiencies therein be curtailed under the guise of fiscal responsibility. I'm suggesting that a recent $600 million dollar investment of public money into a private, profitable, and otherwise self-sustainable business was worthy of the same level of scrutiny. I don't think that's reaching at all.

  31. #131

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    ^^ Do you want an LRT that has good ridership numbers? A higher priority for LRT expansion will be given if ridership numbers are high; plus, all LRT tracks go to downtown!
    Edmonton first, everything else second.

  32. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The question then becomes, do we want single use buildings that have transit, but also significant parking facilities with little walkability or connectivity to other things around it, or a more integrated, thoughtful, connected urban centre.

    Do you want more Whyte Aves, 124sts, 118aves or South Edmonton Commons, Currents, power centres?

    We need to choose, design, plan and incorporate much more thoughtfully.
    Not every square peg can fit into the round hole of downtown. What's next, build a new hosptial inside a bunch of brownstone townhomes in West Rossdale? Perhaps Refinery Row could be squeezed into the old power plant? For that matter why don't we relocate the airport downtown?

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    I'm confused... You say...
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We have worked alongside Councillor McKeen on just that Rich.
    ...in response to my quickly penned note which could be summed up as, "We get it that you've made a decision, so we would like you to help us replace this headcount. Got any ideas?" ...at best, the seat at the in situ table is a faint hail mary to see if there is a chance...but it is done...a lab needs its specific space for its very specific purpose...

    to...
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The question then becomes, do we want single use buildings that have transit, but also significant parking facilities with little walkability or connectivity to other things around it, or a more integrated, thoughtful, connected urban centre.Do you want more Whyte Aves, 124sts, 118aves or South Edmonton Commons, Currents, power centres? We need to choose, design, plan and incorporate much more thoughtfully.
    ...which in essence chastises the decision and goes back to calling this investment, in a sense, stupid and anti-urban. You go from quietly admitting that this is done, to suggesting absolutely insane locations like the Warehouse District which absolutely does NOT have the space. You cannot look for help and extend an olive branch...only to later whip people with it!

    Again, you are trying to shoehorn this into a space it obviously does NOT want to be. It is NOT about contributing to "urbanity"...or whatever new buzzword is out now. This is absolutely the wrong institution to hang your hat on for the urbanity cause...especially in the Edmonton/Alberta context. Regardless of administration, GoA made up its mind a long time ago. I found that out the hard way, when the bureaucracy has made up its mind, the administrators don't count. The bureaucracy is the "B" team...they'll still BE here when the new administration takes over.

    Take kcantor's advice in post #95, which in essence formed the basis of my theoretical letter to Minister Bilous. It really is the best approach. Leave "urbanity" out of this one. This isn't an architectural firm, a bank head office, a retail chain head office, law firm, or government cubicle farm....

    Like I said before, I wish you all luck on this one. If you win, I will gladly say I was wrong. I just know I wouldn't expend my political capital on a decision that I personally know has been in the works for at least a decade...but then I guess you're a better person than I as you have the DBA job...
    Last edited by RichardS; 09-01-2018 at 10:11 PM. Reason: Fixed ending
    Onward and upward

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    ^^ Do you want an LRT that has good ridership numbers? A higher priority for LRT expansion will be given if ridership numbers are high; plus, all LRT tracks go to downtown!
    Or use Bay/Central as is.
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  35. #135

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    The coliseum. .

    Soon to have a new Yellowhead nearby.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The question then becomes, do we want single use buildings that have transit, but also significant parking facilities with little walkability or connectivity to other things around it, or a more integrated, thoughtful, connected urban centre.

    Do you want more Whyte Aves, 124sts, 118aves or South Edmonton Commons, Currents, power centres?
    You're an architect. Find us an example of a medical superlab that can anchor an urban, walkable South Campus? Or design one? It's pretty much a blank slate - kinda like Blatchford, yes?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    We are all architects, but I am not one. South Campus has under delivered in almost all regards.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    I totally understand your position in having the lab downtown. I don’t know if anyone watched these videos about the economies of agglomeration but they explain the benefits of keeping businesses central.
    https://youtu.be/DIpakXL6F6I
    https://youtu.be/EpUNIKB-WaU
    However if they were to try and keep the lab in the central core there should have been an initiative started years ago. The south campus location is at least connected to the “innovation corridor”
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

  39. #139
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    Certainly, but disconnected in almost every other way.
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    I think the South Campus location of the lab could allow better access from the U of A hospital and other locations.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Regardless of them moving out of downtown. This proposal seems to be a sprawling waste of relatively central real estate. Mayor Iveson and other councillors have been stated Edmonton needs to build up rather then out, for them to use this much square footage implies very few floors and large parking areas. Seems to me you could build something in 1/4 the space with underground parking perhaps 4-5 floors.

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    The trend for tech companies is for large floor plates much more efficient for the work they do. It allows for more mixing of people and exchange of ideas. Googles new head office in London next to Kings Cross station is quite long and built on very expensive real estate.
    “Canada is the only country in the world that knows how to live without an identity,”-Marshall McLuhan

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Certainly, but disconnected in almost every other way.
    ...the main thing it is "disconnected" from is a lunchtime dining crowd supporting downtown. From what I gather, this demographic is not normally a group of single urbanites looking for the latest resto-pub with the latest overpriced buck-buck on a plate...nor are they likely the group to meet at the latest bar for after work appies on a routine basis...

    ...Long hours...research freaks...parents with Suzie in hockey and Billy in dance...combined with the manner of work...makes this something that is not a harbinger of the urbanite's connectivity mantra...

    To say this is "disconnected" means that the overall lifestyle pattern of the employees currently live, work, and play downtown more than just 9-5. I'm going out on a limb here...but I am guessing not. Do you have the demographic studies in hand to let me or others know what exactly these workers contribute to the downtown outside of parking fees, lease payments, and the Sunterra lunch rush? How many live in the core? How many don't drive? How many frequent after work bars etc? How much flex work time do they have? What quantifiable inflation of the downtown culture and urbanity can you correlate to this current laboratory?

    ...and yes, you can quantify these numbers. ...and yes, I am genuinely curious. Like I said earlier, I am open to be proven wrong on this one...

    Please don't take my question as sarcasm...you're mentioning this connectivity...so I'd really like to know how "connected" the current lab set up is...anecdotally it looks pretty bunkerish to me in many respects. I know if I were in the Minister's chair and you came to me with this connectivity hypothesis, I would suddenly sound like a Missourian and say, "Show Me."

    ...for you forget...the "B" team has probably looked at this 8 ways to Sunday only to find this current proposed option the best one. Now, that doesn't mean the "B" team is correct, but it is their approach. It would take some serious information to convince them otherwise...and they have the Minister's ear.

    ...and anecdotally the folks I know in Emergency Management for the Province were recently transferred downtown, and they hate it. There is no connectivity love there at all. The grumbling is pretty loud...and some of these folks came from a west end bunker. But, at least the Province is consolidating some headcount in the core...
    Onward and upward

  44. #144

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    Downtown connectivity - Do lab workers ride bikes?


    The way to look at this is that the chosen location may create additional traffic headaches thus forcing any long needed solutions to be implemented.
    Last edited by KC; 10-01-2018 at 07:20 AM.

  45. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I think the South Campus location of the lab could allow better access from the U of A hospital and other locations.
    I wonder what the traffic counts and frequencies by function would be.

    Staff
    Sample deliveries
    Supply deliveries
    Waste removal
    Students
    __{others?}___



    Patient safety possibly at risk if new Edmonton super lab not built soon, documents say – Edmonton Journal
    August 19, 2015

    “Patient safety could suffer without an urgently needed super lab facility in Edmonton, internal Alberta Health Services documents show, but the NDP government is no closer to finding a solution after it cancelled a $3-billion lab services contract last week.

    The pressing need for a new testing facility was driving the health authority’s aggressive timeline to overhaul lab services in Edmonton and northern Alberta, the internal memos and presentations show.”


    http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...-documents-say
    Last edited by KC; 10-01-2018 at 07:29 AM.

  46. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    For the record, I didn't say a change in Government, I said a 'new government'.
    for the record, in the context of this conversation - or even just in the context of that post in particular - what's the difference between a "change in government" and a "new government"?
    Come on now Ken.

    An election is forthcoming and be it the NDP or another, we WILL have a new Government.

    Is this expenditure the right one at the right time? I say no.

    Will this have a negative impact on the Downtown, absolutely.
    ‘Not the right one at the right time’? I think it’s nice to see non-boom/time expenditures.

    This is from well before the NDP were even elected (a change in government):


    Alberta Health Services begins search for a private company to build and operate a ‘super-lab’ facility in Edmonton | Edmonton Sun


    Dec 11, 2013



    Alberta Health Services has begun its search for a private company to build and operate a "super-lab" facility to handle all medical laboratory testing in Edmonton.

    A request for proposal (RFP) was issued Wednesday morning, said AHS interim CEO and president Rick Trimp, with a number of "well-resourced" companies already lining up for a shot at the roughly $3-billion contract that will span 15 years to 2030.

    The RFP aims to consolidate all hospital-based lab services, community testing and lab specimen processing under a single provider...”




    “The RFP specifies that the facility can be built anywhere in Edmonton, said AHS, but should be co-located with a hospital and preferably somewhere near the University hospital grounds.”






    http://edmontonsun.com/2013/12/11/al...3-11410a2d4b81
    Bolding is mine
    Last edited by KC; 10-01-2018 at 08:34 AM.

  47. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    How about a proposal to City Hall that all new office space in the City must first be built downtown. Only when the core is full to capacity should anything that could benefit downtown in the slightest be permitted to build outside the DBA boundary.

    Is that something the DBA would support presenting to city council? After all the D in DBA stands for downtown, right?

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Certainly, but disconnected in almost every other way.
    ...the main thing it is "disconnected" from is a lunchtime dining crowd supporting downtown. From what I gather, this demographic is not normally a group of single urbanites looking for the latest resto-pub with the latest overpriced buck-buck on a plate...nor are they likely the group to meet at the latest bar for after work appies on a routine basis...

    ...Long hours...research freaks...parents with Suzie in hockey and Billy in dance...combined with the manner of work...makes this something that is not a harbinger of the urbanite's connectivity mantra...

    To say this is "disconnected" means that the overall lifestyle pattern of the employees currently live, work, and play downtown more than just 9-5. I'm going out on a limb here...but I am guessing not. Do you have the demographic studies in hand to let me or others know what exactly these workers contribute to the downtown outside of parking fees, lease payments, and the Sunterra lunch rush? How many live in the core? How many don't drive? How many frequent after work bars etc? How much flex work time do they have? What quantifiable inflation of the downtown culture and urbanity can you correlate to this current laboratory?

    ...and yes, you can quantify these numbers. ...and yes, I am genuinely curious. Like I said earlier, I am open to be proven wrong on this one...

    Please don't take my question as sarcasm...you're mentioning this connectivity...so I'd really like to know how "connected" the current lab set up is...anecdotally it looks pretty bunkerish to me in many respects. I know if I were in the Minister's chair and you came to me with this connectivity hypothesis, I would suddenly sound like a Missourian and say, "Show Me."

    ...for you forget...the "B" team has probably looked at this 8 ways to Sunday only to find this current proposed option the best one. Now, that doesn't mean the "B" team is correct, but it is their approach. It would take some serious information to convince them otherwise...and they have the Minister's ear.

    ...and anecdotally the folks I know in Emergency Management for the Province were recently transferred downtown, and they hate it. There is no connectivity love there at all. The grumbling is pretty loud...and some of these folks came from a west end bunker. But, at least the Province is consolidating some headcount in the core...
    I don't think Dynalife does much in the way of research, I think all they do is analyze the tests that are done at their clinics (much of it is blood, stool and urine tests) and send those results to the doctors who requested them. But with the new superlab, research will no doubt be included.

    As for Emergency Management, I'm sure they loathed losing their free parking lot and access to a Timmy's drive-thru. But people in general loathe change to their daily routines.

    But if you want disconnect, the current Dynalife lab at Manulife 2 is the dictionary definition of it. I've always disliked its location. It replaced a decent shopping mall and food court. It created a long, roundabout and cheerless pedway to the U of A Extension and the old Enbridge tower on 103rd. It's a large fortified bunker that killed street life on 103 St and 102 St - if Ian wants another Whyte Ave or another 124 St, these ain't it!

    I hope the new lab will not be some Fort Knox superbunker. I wish it will be well-designed enough to overcome some of the development mistakes on South Campus and be a catalyst of a more liveable and walkable area. Or is that too much to ask?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  49. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Far from, but we all are mindful of our Provincial finances, vacancies in both Edmonton and Calgary and priorities to correct where we are now. This does not align or support any of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We are for Downtown, not for dilution of it.
    Dial back the condescending pomposity, please & thanks.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  50. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    The Urban Warehouse Campus Nightlife Government Medical Health Park Ice Civic District! Katamari all the things into one 8-block zone! Screw the rest of Edmonton until we've jammed that area full of enough "catalysts" that there's no room for reactants!
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  51. #151

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    Maybe the old scona BA should protest biowares move to downtown?

  52. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    The Urban Warehouse Campus Nightlife Government Medical Health Park Ice Civic District! Katamari all the things into one 8-block zone! Screw the rest of Edmonton until we've jammed that area full of enough "catalysts" that there's no room for reactants!
    Just no sports bars please!

  53. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    The Urban Warehouse Campus Nightlife Government Medical Health Park Ice Civic District! Katamari all the things into one 8-block zone! Screw the rest of Edmonton until we've jammed that area full of enough "catalysts" that there's no room for reactants!
    You forgot the newly emerging Donair District.

  54. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The question then becomes, do we want single use buildings that have transit, but also significant parking facilities with little walkability or connectivity to other things around it, or a more integrated, thoughtful, connected urban centre.
    I'd like my vertically-integrated medical labs with possible biohazard concerns in single-use-buildings, as that's the best for efficiency & public safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Do you want more Whyte Aves, 124sts, 118aves or South Edmonton Commons, Currents, power centres?
    False dichotomy & discussing the state/built form of retail areas is a little bit off from the topic of dedicated, heavily-integrated, single-purpose professional buildings. Come back when you're not combining two fallacies to try and make a terrible point.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We need to choose, design, plan and incorporate much more thoughtfully.
    Ah the ol' royal "we", despite the fact you don't speak for or to the majority of your fellow Edmontonians & have the empathic range of a used sock preventing you from seeing it from anything other than your own extremely limited perspective. If people don't choose, design, plan & incorporate entirely congruent to your designs they're not thoughtful, an example of the old "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We have had direct conversations with our Mayor, Councillor, MLA, Minister and many members. The consensus is that we want Dynalife to remain where it is. Period.
    Speaking with my wife on this issue last night, its been communicated to AHS staff that the location is pretty much a done deal. AHS lab staff and Dynalife, at the moment, will be prepping for the move. Something could happen i the meantime, but AHS needs the space since they are being booted out of the UofA Hospital for other needs.

  56. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill.M View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We have had direct conversations with our Mayor, Councillor, MLA, Minister and many members. The consensus is that we want Dynalife to remain where it is. Period.
    Speaking with my wife on this issue last night, its been communicated to AHS staff that the location is pretty much a done deal. AHS lab staff and Dynalife, at the moment, will be prepping for the move. Something could happen i the meantime, but AHS needs the space since they are being booted out of the UofA Hospital for other needs.
    I guess that makes a lot of sense, brining it all together, and freeing up the UofA hospital for medical matters. A bit inconvenient for your wife though (subject to where it ends up).

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill.M View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We have had direct conversations with our Mayor, Councillor, MLA, Minister and many members. The consensus is that we want Dynalife to remain where it is. Period.
    Speaking with my wife on this issue last night, its been communicated to AHS staff that the location is pretty much a done deal. AHS lab staff and Dynalife, at the moment, will be prepping for the move. Something could happen i the meantime, but AHS needs the space since they are being booted out of the UofA Hospital for other needs.
    I guess that makes a lot of sense, brining it all together, and freeing up the UofA hospital for medical matters. A bit inconvenient for your wife though (subject to where it ends up).
    We've been watching this closely for a while. The government had that big RFP out to procure lab services which would replace Dynalife and AHS lab services under a private contract. The current government axed that and now we are seeing the opposite with AHS taking over all lab services again. Been a bit of a rollercoaster ride for AHS/Dynalife Lab staff. Right now I think Dynalife only does about 20% of the lab services... everything else is done by AHS. I can't remember the employee count moving to the new spot, but its significant. I believe its in the order of 3000 to 4000 employees. They are excited though since their archaic (1990's) equipment will be replaced with newer stuff. No longer will be operating on Windows XP!

    The new spot is a bit inconvenient for her with us living in St Albert. It would be a bit more of a commute by transit (another 15 mins or so) than currently.

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    One thing to note is that the way the new facility will operate differently than traditionally. As I understand it, its going to be set up as a crown corporation with its own Board of Governors. The entire provincial lab services will be under this new framework. This also isolates lab services a bit better from changing governments. Currently this is similar to how Calgary lab services is set up. Calgary lab services is going to be moved under this new body as well, as I understand it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill.M View Post
    (...). They are excited though since their archaic (1990's) equipment will be replaced with newer stuff. No longer will be operating on Windows XP!

    (...).

    LOL....I did notice that...and some areas still are on an AS400 emulator. sheesh...
    Onward and upward

  60. #160

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    ^A friend of mine was once a computer operator on AS400's - that was about 1993, he used to get decent money working for a Telecom just changing cartridges/tapes, running batches, and similar (I think they date back to 1988, and the predecessor system back to the 70's).
    Last edited by moahunter; 10-01-2018 at 10:41 AM.

  61. #161

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    An even older reference to this decision:



    'Superlab' still a go -- just not right now, Horne says
    CBC News
    November 4, 2013

    Health Minister Fred Horne said laboratory services in Edmonton will be consolidated despite what was suggested last week by the CEO of Alberta Health Services.

    ...

    “We have a deadline right? The current contracts expire at the end of 2015,” he said.

    “That means we won't have access to the lab space that we have today in downtown Edmonton and in other places...”

    The super-lab would handle all testing that is currently split among private provider Dynalife, AHS and Covenant Health.

    The switch to a single lab could lead to the loss of 1,000 jobs.

    The Alberta NDP has raised questions about having a single company handle all the testing.

    A group of 16 pathologists sent a letter to AHS last month stating that the superlab could reduce patient safety, quality and timeliness of care.

    ...

    http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/e...says-1.2356401


    Bolding is mine





    Fascinating:

    18 Feb 2010
    https://www.pressreader.com/canada/e...82634618770234
    Last edited by KC; 10-01-2018 at 02:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BalancedOP View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by piglet View Post
    Not to troll anyone here lol.. but I actually heard some news in regards to this Lab. "They" have expressed interest on the north side; around past 137ave out toward St.Albert area.

    One of the proposals had the site in the old Golden west golf course site, Now owned by Qualico I believe. Mr kantor can correct me if I am wrong.
    golden west, which has recently been renamed "north 170 henday business park" (don't ask, i think it was a focus group thing ), is a qualico project but that means it's no longer one of my projects and not something i can comment on past what's in the public forum.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  63. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    The Urban Warehouse Campus Nightlife Government Medical Health Park Ice Civic District! Katamari all the things into one 8-block zone! Screw the rest of Edmonton until we've jammed that area full of enough "catalysts" that there's no room for reactants!
    You forgot the newly emerging Donair District.
    LOL. Oh man, a Donair District would please me greatly...

  64. #164

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    A few thoughts.

    First, I live two blocks from the Dynalife lab downtown. I think the South Campus location is the best location in the city for this new lab. Do I have concerns about its as yet unseen design? Of course, but I would be more concerned about that if it was downtown. The stakes are not as high at South Campus; the surrounding neighbourhoods are about as developed as they are going to get. Downtown is still - for lack of a better word - "fragile". Not to minimize the concerns of people living around South Campus - far from it. The UofA has not been a good neighbour in terms of how it has gone about development. Hopefully AHS does a better job.

    Regarding the UofA and the UofA Hospital and their transit relationship to this lab: the LRT ride from them to South Campus is perhaps a minute shorter than the ride to Bay Station. 5 or 6 minutes. Whether you stand on the escalator or walk the stairs will make a bigger difference than the destination.

    Speaking of the LRT and in particular Bay / Enterprise Square (bleh) Station, do you know who has been looking to expand downtown for years? Who would bring "workers" from their other locations on the LRT? Who already occupies space adjacent to Dynalife?

    Anybody, anybody? Bueller?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    The Urban Warehouse Campus Nightlife Government Medical Health Park Ice Civic District! Katamari all the things into one 8-block zone! Screw the rest of Edmonton until we've jammed that area full of enough "catalysts" that there's no room for reactants!
    You forgot the newly emerging Donair District.
    LOL. Oh man, a Donair District would please me greatly...
    I suggest a small health clinic to treat the heart problems of satiated donair patrons!
    Last edited by nick5150; 11-01-2018 at 10:33 AM.

  66. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick5150 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MDH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ajs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Or those opportunities could happen Downtown, around the 'health/innovation district'. The Warehouse District has a lot of room to house medical/research/lab space.
    The Urban Warehouse Campus Nightlife Government Medical Health Park Ice Civic District! Katamari all the things into one 8-block zone! Screw the rest of Edmonton until we've jammed that area full of enough "catalysts" that there's no room for reactants!
    You forgot the newly emerging Donair District.
    LOL. Oh man, a Donair District would please me greatly...
    I suggest a small health clinic to treat the heart problems of satiated donair patrons!
    I think the Donair District and the Medical Lab District should probably not be too close together. Does anyone else see a potential problem here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    I think the Donair District and the Medical Lab District should probably not be too close together. Does anyone else see a potential problem here?
    What is donair meat anyways?

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    don't ask

    Don't ask how Gummy Bears are made either...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenco View Post
    The trend for tech companies is for large floor plates much more efficient for the work they do. It allows for more mixing of people and exchange of ideas. Googles new head office in London next to Kings Cross station is quite long and built on very expensive real estate.
    Oh I know large floor plates can increase efficiency. I think they are going too large, where you have too much walking from one end to the other. Plus less floors means more heating, cooling requirements as the building has a higher surface area. Also you have more construction costs for plumbing as you can save money if washrooms and lunchrooms are vertically stacked.
    The provincial buildings just north are about the right size per floor.

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    Fact: A new lab is required in order to provide the necessary services as mandated by the Province to serve Edmonton and area.

    Fact: The current location does not fulfil this purpose.

    Fact: DBA is concerned with losing 750 jobs from the downtown, as it should be.

    Fact: Those on this forum commenting on what would be an 'appropriate' size of floor plates and other design/technical components associated with this lab are speaking out of term, UNLESS, they have direct experience designing/operating/managing such facilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Fact: A new lab is required in order to provide the necessary services as mandated by the Province to serve Edmonton and area.

    Fact: The current location does not fulfil this purpose.

    Fact: DBA is concerned with losing 750 jobs from the downtown, as it should be.

    Fact: Those on this forum commenting on what would be an 'appropriate' size of floor plates and other design/technical components associated with this lab are speaking out of term, UNLESS, they have direct experience designing/operating/managing such facilities.
    Fact: I have direct experience in medical diagnostic procedures and processes

  72. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Fact: A new lab is required in order to provide the necessary services as mandated by the Province to serve Edmonton and area.

    Fact: The current location does not fulfil this purpose.

    Fact: DBA is concerned with losing 750 jobs from the downtown, as it should be.

    Fact: Those on this forum commenting on what would be an 'appropriate' size of floor plates and other design/technical components associated with this lab are speaking out of term, UNLESS, they have direct experience designing/operating/managing such facilities.
    Fact: the DBA has no business interfering in health care decision making for Alberta.

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    All BIAs are in place to ensure retention of employers and expansion of the area, not contraction.
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  74. #174

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    Yeah, who cares about the quality of health care. We've got a tower podium that we don't want to have involved with the street around it in any way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    All BIAs are in place to ensure retention of employers and expansion of the area, not contraction.
    all other things being equal - absolutely. but all other things being equal just isn’t always the case.

    this isn’t a new resto-pub opening in south edmonton common instead of downtown.

    and it isn’t a local engineering firm or contractor choosing east gate business park instead of downtown.

    this is an integral component of our provincial health care delivery system choosing the most efficient location to increase the quality of that care and delivery. that system has a direct and positive benefit for every downtown resident and worker just as it does for every other albertan.

    that’s what the dba should be prepared to emphasize and sell to its members as well as to potential backfill tenants for dynacare's old space.

    do all bia’s have a role to play in employee retention and expansion? absolutely.

    is it the sole criteria for them - or the businesses involved - to apply to location decisions and statements? absolutely not.

    how would you feel about it if that was the sole criteria that had been used to determine the location of the new arena or mcw/hemisphere engineering or electronic arts?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  76. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    All BIAs are in place to ensure retention of employers and expansion of the area, not contraction.
    Is that really true? BIAs are governed by the Municipal Government Act of Alberta; their authority flows from section 50 of the act which reads:
    50 A council may by bylaw establish a business improvement area for one or more of the following purposes:
    (a) improving, beautifying and maintaining property in the business improvement area;
    (b) developing, improving and maintaining public parking;
    (c) promoting the business improvement area as a business or shopping area.
    RSA 2000 cM-26 s50;2015 c8 s5
    http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/m26.pdf

    So no, BIAs are not in place to ensure retention of employers.

    With respect to DynaLife, retaining them obviously does nothing to further purposes under clause (a) or (b). Even under clause (c), I fail to see how retention of a obsolete and lifeless podium promotes business or shopping in the area.

    In any event, there is certainly nothing in the act that gives the DBA any jurisdiction over health care.
    Last edited by OffWhyte; 13-01-2018 at 08:16 PM. Reason: Missed a word

  77. #177

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    A prior decision - maybe some parallels:


    National Microbiology Laboratory - Wikipedia



    “In the 1980s, Health Canada identified both the need to replace existing laboratory space that was reaching the end of its lifespan and the need for Containment Level 4 space in the country. Around the same time, Agriculture Canada (prior to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency being formed) also identified the need for new laboratory space including high-containment. Numerous benefits were identified for housing both laboratories in one building and Winnipeg was chosen as the site; an announcement to that effect was made in October 1987.

    After some debate, the spot chosen for the site was a city works yard near to the Health Sciences Centre (a major teaching hospital), the University of Manitoba’s medical school, and other life science organizations. Construction of the facility that came to be named the Canadian Science Centre for Human and Animal Health (often referred to locally as “the Virology Lab”) began with an official ground-breaking in December 1992. ...



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...ogy_Laboratory

  78. #178

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    I'm gobsmacked that the DBA would tell the province that the current inadequate, under equipped and understaffed lab is preferable to a new, purpose built facility simply because it's downtown and the new one isn't.

    Move the lab (in 3-4 years) and find someone new for the podium that will take up the space AND open up the windows to let some light and life into the street level.

    Sure, it's going to take some work but taking the easy way out isn't helping the city and the entire northern half of the province.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    All BIAs are in place to ensure retention of employers and expansion of the area, not contraction.
    all other things being equal - absolutely. but all other things being equal just isn’t always the case.

    this isn’t a new resto-pub opening in south edmonton common instead of downtown.

    and it isn’t a local engineering firm or contractor choosing east gate business park instead of downtown.

    this is an integral component of our provincial health care delivery system choosing the most efficient location to increase the quality of that care and delivery. that system has a direct and positive benefit for every downtown resident and worker just as it does for every other albertan.

    that’s what the dba should be prepared to emphasize and sell to its members as well as to potential backfill tenants for dynacare's old space.

    do all bia’s have a role to play in employee retention and expansion? absolutely.

    is it the sole criteria for them - or the businesses involved - to apply to location decisions and statements? absolutely not.

    how would you feel about it if that was the sole criteria that had been used to determine the location of the new arena or mcw/hemisphere engineering or electronic arts?
    Which as worked in situ for two decades and while there may be other reasons to move to a new facility and while there are great opportunities for redevelopment/backfill, losing an employer of that size has to be defended Ken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    In any event, there is certainly nothing in the act that gives the DBA any jurisdiction over health care.
    Nor was there ever any direction to have jurisdiction over it.
    www.decl.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    I'm gobsmacked that the DBA would tell the province that the current inadequate, under equipped and understaffed lab is preferable to a new, purpose built facility simply because it's downtown and the new one isn't.

    Move the lab (in 3-4 years) and find someone new for the podium that will take up the space AND open up the windows to let some light and life into the street level.

    Sure, it's going to take some work but taking the easy way out isn't helping the city and the entire northern half of the province.
    Again, that's not what was said or implied. It was a request to retain those jobs in the core.
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  82. #182

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    They're not going to build a lab of the size proposed downtown. There would be land acquisition costs that do't exist under the proposal since the province already owns the property. Proximity to the University for education purposes is also part of the new lab. The proposed site is closer to the U of A and easier access by vehicle straight down the road.

    if you keep the lab downtown, the new tests that the lab will be doing won't happen in Edmonton. They'll have to be sent to Calgary or even to the states as happens now. The ability to grow will also be lost and the current lab is operating past it's capacity right now.

    But, by all means, fight to keep it downtown. Who cares about the quality of medical care as long as there's a few extra lunches sold? You don't think that having something else in that building that might actually attract people other than just employees might, just might, promote a better downtown? Some shops that open to the street might be better than a blank wall with papered over windows might promote some of the vitalty that you claim is needed?

    Seriously, right now fighting to keep the lab downtown is like fighting to keep the remand because the guards might eat lunch at a restaurant. Neither of them provided much in the way of making downtown a place for people to go. 102 street north of jasper is a no man's land right ow. This is a chance to do something about it. And the DBA is saying that the status quo is just fine, thank you very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    All BIAs are in place to ensure retention of employers and expansion of the area, not contraction.
    all other things being equal - absolutely. but all other things being equal just isn’t always the case.

    this isn’t a new resto-pub opening in south edmonton common instead of downtown.

    and it isn’t a local engineering firm or contractor choosing east gate business park instead of downtown.

    this is an integral component of our provincial health care delivery system choosing the most efficient location to increase the quality of that care and delivery. that system has a direct and positive benefit for every downtown resident and worker just as it does for every other albertan.

    that’s what the dba should be prepared to emphasize and sell to its members as well as to potential backfill tenants for dynacare's old space.

    do all bia’s have a role to play in employee retention and expansion? absolutely.

    is it the sole criteria for them - or the businesses involved - to apply to location decisions and statements? absolutely not.

    how would you feel about it if that was the sole criteria that had been used to determine the location of the new arena or mcw/hemisphere engineering or electronic arts?
    Which as worked in situ for two decades and while there may be other reasons to move to a new facility and while there are great opportunities for redevelopment/backfill, losing an employer of that size has to be defended Ken.
    how well it’s worked or not is arguable but i can tell you it’s (a) been a lot less than two decades (b) was always contemplated by both the landlord and the tenant to last less than it already has and (c) some of the key logistics that made downtown a reasonable interim relocation option from the west end to where they are now are no longer applicable. in the big picture, what you are attempting to defend for parochial and naive reasons is indefensible.
    Last edited by kcantor; 13-01-2018 at 07:27 PM.
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    Again Ken, we recognize the redevelopment opportunities and they may/will be exciting long-term. These likely are going to bring even more people and potential employment to the area, but we have a duty to ensure that employment remains in the core, period. Certainly there are other factors in play, but it is our position we believe the Province should reconsider at this moment in time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Again Ken, we recognize the redevelopment opportunities and they may/will be exciting long-term. These likely are going to bring even more people and potential employment to the area, but we have a duty to ensure that employment remains in the core, period. Certainly there are other factors in play, but it is our position we believe the Province should reconsider at this moment in time.
    again IanO, you are mistakenly conflating multiple dba goals and wrongly classifying the result as a duty. it doesn’t matter how many times you state or restate your position, it is neither accurate nor appropriate.

    you want the province to reconsider “at this moment in time”? this moment in time will be long gone by the time the new lab will be designed, built and commissioned along with the current market conditions that seem to have you in panic mode. this is probably the best moment in time for relocating the lab to be started.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  86. #186

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    I don't recall the DBA fighting to keep the jobs from the Staples in the core. Why? Because it led to something better. And as long as the lab is in the podium on 102 st, noting else is going in there. It's not like they could leave with a years notice. So, if they're there, noting will happen for 5-10 years. it will remain a dead zone for another decade at the least.

    A few years ago there was a proposal for a tower on this site. Kiss any thought of that goodbye if the lab is forced to stay.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Again Ken, we recognize the redevelopment opportunities and they may/will be exciting long-term. These likely are going to bring even more people and potential employment to the area, but we have a duty to ensure that employment remains in the core, period. Certainly there are other factors in play, but it is our position we believe the Province should reconsider at this moment in time.
    again IanO, you are mistakenly conflating multiple dba goals and wrongly classifying the result as a duty. it doesn’t matter how many times you state or restate your position, it is neither accurate nor appropriate.

    you want the province to reconsider “at this moment in time”? this moment in time will be long gone by the time the new lab will be designed, built and commissioned along with the current market conditions that seem to have you in panic mode. this is probably the best moment in time for relocating the lab to be started.
    We will agree to disagree then.

    As an economist, you are best to have a macroeconomic policy that spends in a recession and constricts spending when the private sector/growth returns, but our fiscal policy and situation is such that there are other compounding issues/priorities that need attention prior to this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    I don't recall the DBA fighting to keep the jobs from the Staples in the core. Why? Because it led to something better. And as long as the lab is in the podium on 102 st, noting else is going in there. It's not like they could leave with a years notice. So, if they're there, noting will happen for 5-10 years. it will remain a dead zone for another decade at the least.

    A few years ago there was a proposal for a tower on this site. Kiss any thought of that goodbye if the lab is forced to stay.
    Is there greater potential in that property/zoning, yes there is, but again, IS THIS THE RIGHT TIME? I would say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Again Ken, we recognize the redevelopment opportunities and they may/will be exciting long-term. These likely are going to bring even more people and potential employment to the area, but we have a duty to ensure that employment remains in the core, period. Certainly there are other factors in play, but it is our position we believe the Province should reconsider at this moment in time.
    again IanO, you are mistakenly conflating multiple dba goals and wrongly classifying the result as a duty. it doesn’t matter how many times you state or restate your position, it is neither accurate nor appropriate.

    you want the province to reconsider “at this moment in time”? this moment in time will be long gone by the time the new lab will be designed, built and commissioned along with the current market conditions that seem to have you in panic mode. this is probably the best moment in time for relocating the lab to be started.
    We will agree to disagree then.

    As an economist, you are best to have a macroeconomic policy that spends in a recession and constricts spending when the private sector/growth returns, but our fiscal policy and situation is such that there are other compounding issues/priorities that need attention prior to this.
    okay, we will agree to disagree... but only because it’s getting harder and harder to respond to absolute bs.

    next you’ll be letting us know it’s so because you used to work for an economist?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Oddly enough Ken, many would disagree with you...
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  91. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Again Ken, we recognize the redevelopment opportunities and they may/will be exciting long-term. These likely are going to bring even more people and potential employment to the area, but we have a duty to ensure that employment remains in the core, period. Certainly there are other factors in play, but it is our position we believe the Province should reconsider at this moment in time.
    again IanO, you are mistakenly conflating multiple dba goals and wrongly classifying the result as a duty. it doesn’t matter how many times you state or restate your position, it is neither accurate nor appropriate.

    you want the province to reconsider “at this moment in time”? this moment in time will be long gone by the time the new lab will be designed, built and commissioned along with the current market conditions that seem to have you in panic mode. this is probably the best moment in time for relocating the lab to be started.
    Exactly. It would be misleading to suggest this relocation will happen right away. It will take several years to design and build the new lab, so "current" market conditions are really not that relevant. It also gives a good amount of time for the owners of the existing space to consider and plan for what they want to do with it in the future. Given this, it is possible the relocation may not be very disruptive to the current area.

  92. #192

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    Exactly. We're looking at approximately four years until the new lab is ready. Plenty of time for the DBA to line up some new tenants. I can just see it that in a few years, a perfect mix of tenants becomes available and the podium is still in use so a tenant mix that's a MUCH better fit for downtown goes elsewhere.

    The DBA is coming across as a two year old holding onto a single toy and screaming "mine, mine, mine" when they've got a whole toybox full of new toys right behind them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Oddly enough Ken, many would disagree with you...
    oddly enough IanO, it wouldn’t be the first time and it doesn’t bother me at all. sometimes they’re even right. but not this time.

    and oddly enough IanO, sometimes many would disagree with you. and sometimes they’re even right. like this time.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  94. #194

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    The DBA should stand down. Though I highly doubt anyone at the DBA beyond IanO is actually going to the lengths he is.

    Role

    The Downtown Business Association’s primary role is to maintain and increase the vitality – both real and perceived – of the downtown core of Edmonton.
    Mission Statement

    Through its leadership in advocacy and promotion, the Downtown Business Association will Support, Connect, & Enrich Edmonton’s Downtown Community.
    What does the association do?

    Since 1985, the DBA has addressed its mission by producing several large events and initiatives as well as sponsoring numerous festivals and special events in our Downtown core each year. In addition, the DBA took a lead role in the implementation of the 1997 Capital City Downtown Plan, a bylaw that contained policies, programs, and nearly 80 action items intended to see Downtown flourish as the social, cultural, and economic heart of Edmonton.

    http://www.edmontondowntown.com/
    I'm not seeing where their role or mission statement reflects being an authority on best practices or decisions for Provincial Health Care.

  95. #195

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    There’s also a problem with downtown development.

    A great big shiny new tower potentially strips a lot jobs and businesses out of other parts of Edmonton. In the post boom cheap downtown rent era I once worked for a business I that had relocated from the suburbs to the Phipps-McKinnon. It had moved a number of jobs supporting one part of the city to the benefit of the downtown - due to the overbuilding of the 1970s overbuilding mania.

    Considering the apparent aggressive anti-we’re-all-on-the-same-team approach that is being undertaken behind the scenes, and revealed here, maybe other Edmonton communities need to organize and track relocations for their own self-serving purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Again Ken, we recognize the redevelopment opportunities and they may/will be exciting long-term. These likely are going to bring even more people and potential employment to the area, but we have a duty to ensure that employment remains in the core, period. Certainly there are other factors in play, but it is our position we believe the Province should reconsider at this moment in time.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post

    Is there greater potential in that property/zoning, yes there is, but again, IS THIS THE RIGHT TIME? I would say no.
    Ian, I get where you are trying to go, but I think the DBA needs to be clear on defining what time is right, and what constitutes good.

    IF...IF...there was somehow an announcement that
    • Amazon's HQ2 or some other 1,000+ headcount was coming to downtown
    • they were building net new or absorbing existing space
    • and simultaneously these ~700+ lab/research FTE's were announced to be leaving downtown
    • and this nets downtown an increase of ~200+ FTE's


    ...would the DBA's stance on losing ~700 FTE's still be not right...at that time? At any time? With the net increase, or even a zero sum game, would the DBA then be fine with this move? Or, regardless of time, fiscal prudence, or net increases overall, would the DBA still be as concerned and opposed to this headcount move?
    Onward and upward

  97. #197

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    Just throwing in a cross-ref to a similar jobs shifting issue:

    Edmonton may get new jobs at Vegreville's expense

    http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/showt...ille-s-expense

  98. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Seriously, right now fighting to keep the lab downtown is like fighting to keep the remand because the guards might eat lunch at a restaurant.
    LOVE this!
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  99. #199

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    The timing to move the lab makes sense now. The province and it's oil sector are about to recover. Now is the time move stuff and build stuff before costs get too high.

    During a boom cycle, the costs are too high
    During a recession, we should be spending money on other things.

    Now is the right time for this move.

  100. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    The timing to move the lab makes sense now. The province and it's oil sector are about to recover.
    I don't think there will be any real recovery beyond what we have now, until closer to 2021, things have just stabilized into a spend thrift / cautious position. 2021 is when the pipeline capacity should be sufficient to wipe out most of the massive discounts Alberta producers are facing at the moment. Until that happens, I don't think anyone is going to invest big, as of today there is not much point in producing new oil in Alberta when you can produce oil in Dakota or Texas for a similar cost but get a vastly superior price.
    Last edited by moahunter; Yesterday at 10:59 AM.

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