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Thread: Where Credit is Due - Brad Ferguson

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    Default Where Credit is Due - Brad Ferguson

    Where Credit is Due

    Every time I tell the Edmonton story, from Hangzhou to Helsinki, from roundtables of 10 to audiences of 1100, people are fascinated how we evolved the Edmonton brand and engaged our whole community in the process. They ask, “How did you guys do it? How did Edmonton manage its way through the recession so well? How did you evolve the brand in such a short period of time? How did you grab the attention of the media? How did you rise so fast in the rankings?”

    Every time I’m asked, I stop and give pause, and I share an important story that seems to be forgotten – a story that gives credit to those who took the risk to fundamentally change the face of our city.

    Five years ago, our city was at an impasse. City Council was divided over whether a downtown arena would generate the economic benefits that were being claimed, and Edmontonians were divided as to whether a partnership with Daryl Katz could be trusted and whether it would be in the best interest of our city.

    https://brad-ferguson.com/2018/01/30...credit-is-due/
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  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Where Credit is Due

    Every time I tell the Edmonton story, from Hangzhou to Helsinki, from roundtables of 10 to audiences of 1100, people are fascinated how we evolved the Edmonton brand and engaged our whole community in the process. They ask, “How did you guys do it? How did Edmonton manage its way through the recession so well? How did you evolve the brand in such a short period of time? How did you grab the attention of the media? How did you rise so fast in the rankings?”

    Every time I’m asked, I stop and give pause, and I share an important story that seems to be forgotten – a story that gives credit to those who took the risk to fundamentally change the face of our city.

    Five years ago, our city was at an impasse. City Council was divided over whether a downtown arena would generate the economic benefits that were being claimed, and Edmontonians were divided as to whether a partnership with Daryl Katz could be trusted and whether it would be in the best interest of our city.

    https://brad-ferguson.com/2018/01/30...credit-is-due/
    Sounds like Mr. Ferguson is trying to rationalize corporate welfare so he can live with the guilt that comes with diverting taxpayer money into the pockets of billionaires.
    Last edited by OffWhyte; 31-01-2018 at 04:28 PM.

  3. #3

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    Yeah, he's certainly carrying a lot of water for Katz & trying to make it seem like trickle-down economics are a real, viable thing just because KATZ THE AMAZING!

    Wonder if there's anything coming down the pipe that they're trying to get ahead of... I mean, his buying of a borderline-fake-news right wing news blog started by a Fox News personality is the only recent news I've heard about our "local" plutocrat at least since the pay-for-sex story last year & his move to California.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Yeah, he's certainly carrying a lot of water for Katz & trying to make it seem like trickle-down economics are a real, viable thing just because KATZ THE AMAZING!

    Wonder if there's anything coming down the pipe that they're trying to get ahead of... I mean, his buying of a borderline-fake-news right wing news blog started by a Fox News personality is the only recent news I've heard about our "local" plutocrat at least since the pay-for-sex story last year & his move to California.
    Laying the groundwork to allow OEG to have additional surface parking for their liquor stores perhaps. Or maybe there's some other by-law they want changed that we haven't heard about yet.

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    Darryl Katz has done more for this city than any other single person in my lifetime. Ferguson is absolutely right.
    Instead of criticizing Katz, we should be erecting statues and naming parks in his honor.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Darryl Katz has done more for this city than any other single person in my lifetime. Ferguson is absolutely right.
    Instead of criticizing Katz, we should be erecting statues and naming parks in his honor.
    Because the publicly-funded $600 million mausoleum where hockey careers go to get buried isn't enough to pay him the appropriate amount of homage.

  7. #7

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    OEG position Ferguson is applying for with this grovelling missive: Toady in Chief, must be an exquisite apple polisher and enjoy the smell of rich people's farts
    Last edited by ajs; 01-02-2018 at 09:56 AM. Reason: auto correct

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    I appreciate your perspective. There are many perspectives. But this one is yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Darryl Katz has done more for this city than any other single person in my lifetime. Ferguson is absolutely right.
    Instead of criticizing Katz, we should be erecting statues and naming parks in his honor.
    Because the publicly-funded $600 million mausoleum where hockey careers go to get buried isn't enough to pay him the appropriate amount of homage.
    Blah blah blah, whine and complain about a rather small subsidy to an arena (compared to others), and ignore the billions, yes, billions in private sector development that is sprouting up and paying off the arena many times over. Shame on you. Have some vision. Vision should be a requirment for posting here.

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    Is that sarcasm AAAAE?

    The entire arena was fronted with government money. The whole thing. Then the City of Edmonton agreed to a lease for an office tower from the person that they lent the entire cost of an arena to because he could miraculously outbid other proposals. When you are gifted business from the city you can compete for other businesses like getting the Stantec lease.

    Should we also discount the amount of money that Katz has syphoned out of the city through the death of the CFR in Edmonton?

    I think the following quote from Mr. Ferguson should perhaps have that $2 billion broken down for verification.

    "And Daryl Katz delivered. What was originally a $100 million commitment (subject to commercial efficacy) in the Arena Master Agreement has now turned into more than $2 billion of personal investment in our downtown. And he kept investing in Edmonton while oil prices plummeted and margins were squeezed, building confidence in our city as we told this story around the world. Katz Group delivered the tallest tower in western Canada (Stantec Tower), the Edmonton Tower, the JW Marriott Hotel, Rogers Place Arena, the Winter Garden (Ford Hall) with excellence, and they continue to invest with more buildings planned in our near future."

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph60 View Post
    Darryl Katz has done more for this city than any other single person in my lifetime. Ferguson is absolutely right.
    Instead of criticizing Katz, we should be erecting statues and naming parks in his honor.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

    Oh.

    Wait.

    You're serious?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    I think the following quote from Mr. Ferguson should perhaps have that $2 billion broken down for verification.
    Yeah, I don't really think that Edmonton Tower should be counted as part of the additional development, what with it being part of the shakedown list of demands from Daryl pre-deal-signing. He wanted his free arena, all the profits from it & a reliable, long-term tenant he could exert control over. Triple play, succeeded.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAAAE View Post
    Blah blah blah, whine and complain about a rather small subsidy to an arena (compared to others), and ignore the billions, yes, billions in private sector development that is sprouting up and paying off the arena many times over. Shame on you. Have some vision. Vision should be a requirment for posting here.
    This claim about billions and billions of dollars of development is repeated ad nauseam by the Katz echo chamber. What they never say--either because they do not realize it or because they choose to ignore it--is that for this to be correct then every single one of the following conditions and assumptions must hold true.


    1. That exactly zero dollars of development would have occurred had the city not financed the arena.
    2. That the billions of development in the arena district caused exactly zero dollars of development to leave other parts of the city.
    3. That all other possible investments of $600 million of publicly-funded debt would have created exactly zero dollars of private development.
    4. That the $600 million dollars of debt incurred to build the arena comes interest free.


    A proper conversation about the benefits of the "partnership" cannot be had without also talking about these assumptions.

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    My role is becoming available on March 30th, I encourage you to apply. You sound fascinating.

  15. #15

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    Over the line bud. I called you names so your sarcasm was completely in bounds (although I'm sure you've been called worse by better men than me). OffWhyte is making a coherent, balanced argument about the city's partnership with Katz echoing the sentiments of a great number of Edmontonians.

    Now I'm aware WE have this perception of ourselves as a "bottom-up" city where anyone with a dream and an email address can be a "maker". Of course, this is a facade but pretend is fun. Condescending to OffWhyte is a real nip slip in terms of how our betters perceive the rabble. Careful, careful...

  16. #16

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    AMEN, ajs (and OffWhyte as well).
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  17. #17

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    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  18. #18

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    $230 million in 3 years through the CRL into parks, infrastructure and the area isn't done yet, still under construction.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    Are they loaded questions? Sure.

    Are they valid questions? Absolutely.

    We gave a huge amount of corporate welfare to one of the most profitable teams in the league, owned by one of the richest people in Canada in what's been called the most lopsided arena deal ever by economists. We ceded to every demand he made, have let him run roughshod over development guidelines & bylaws put in place, just to increase his profitability. He's shown nothing but contempt for the city, unless it's fiscally prudent for him to appear genuine & repentant.

    Plus he's a scummy, sexist, greasy right-wing nutter.

    If you wanna genuflect at the Altar of Katz, that's your business, but the man is no saint or scion. Just a plutocrat doing what plutocrats do.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    Are they loaded questions? Sure.

    Are they valid questions? Absolutely.

    We gave a huge amount of corporate welfare to one of the most profitable teams in the league, owned by one of the richest people in Canada in what's been called the most lopsided arena deal ever by economists. We ceded to every demand he made, have let him run roughshod over development guidelines & bylaws put in place, just to increase his profitability. He's shown nothing but contempt for the city, unless it's fiscally prudent for him to appear genuine & repentant.

    Plus he's a scummy, sexist, greasy right-wing nutter.

    If you wanna genuflect at the Altar of Katz, that's your business, but the man is no saint or scion. Just a plutocrat doing what plutocrats do.
    And... he doesn't even live here anymore.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    I'm open to answers that are based on credible references.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    I'm open to answers that are based on credible references.
    Then ask questions that aren't just trolling.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    $230 million in 3 years through the CRL into parks, infrastructure and the area isn't done yet, still under construction.
    I'm curious to know if there's a source for this figure beyond just what Mr. Ferguson said because it's sure not easy to find anything to support it on the CoE website.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    I'm open to answers that are based on credible references.
    Then ask questions that aren't just trolling.
    Asking questions that you are not prepared to answer (or don't like the answer to) is suddenly trolling?

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    OffWhyte's pseudo-qeustions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" belie his/her alleged interest in answers.
    I'm open to answers that are based on credible references.
    Then ask questions that aren't just trolling.
    Asking questions that you are not prepared to answer (or don't like the answer to) is suddenly trolling?
    Pseudo-questions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" are.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  26. #26

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    I would like to say, ZERO redevelopment downtown if they had not close the airport.

    The airport closure was the key to downtown redevelopment.
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  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    $230 million in 3 years through the CRL into parks, infrastructure and the area isn't done yet, still under construction.
    I'm curious to know if there's a source for this figure beyond just what Mr. Ferguson said because it's sure not easy to find anything to support it on the CoE website.
    As per the formula and makeup of the CRL.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  28. #28

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    ^ I would like to say, ZERO redevelopment downtown without Railtown.

    Railtown was the key to downtown redevelopment.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Asking questions that you are not prepared to answer (or don't like the answer to) is suddenly trolling?
    Pseudo-questions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" are.
    Trolling implies that I am deliberately trying to anger or offend people; that is not the case. My intent is simply to ask difficult questions--or more specifically to identify the underlying assumptions in the narrative being put forward. If someone gets angered or offended in the face of questions that they find difficult to answer then that's on them, not on me.

  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    $230 million in 3 years through the CRL into parks, infrastructure and the area isn't done yet, still under construction.
    I'm curious to know if there's a source for this figure beyond just what Mr. Ferguson said because it's sure not easy to find anything to support it on the CoE website.
    As per the formula and makeup of the CRL.
    That's not a source. A source would have something that you could click on leading to actual numbers.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
    $230 million in 3 years through the CRL into parks, infrastructure and the area isn't done yet, still under construction.
    I'm curious to know if there's a source for this figure beyond just what Mr. Ferguson said because it's sure not easy to find anything to support it on the CoE website.
    As per the formula and makeup of the CRL.
    That's not a source. A source would have something that you could click on leading to actual numbers.
    You're right, it's not a source.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Asking questions that you are not prepared to answer (or don't like the answer to) is suddenly trolling?
    Pseudo-questions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" are.
    Trolling implies that I am deliberately trying to anger or offend people; that is not the case. My intent is simply to ask difficult questions--or more specifically to identify the underlying assumptions in the narrative being put forward. If someone gets angered or offended in the face of questions that they find difficult to answer then that's on them, not on me.
    Pseudo-questions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" do not represent your stated intentions well then. Best of luck in getting answers you like.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Pseudo-questions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" do not represent your stated intentions well then. Best of luck in getting answers you like.
    Thanks, I appreciate the support, because certainly you have failed spectacularly to provide any helpful answers.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Pseudo-questions about "exactly zero" and "interest free" do not represent your stated intentions well then. Best of luck in getting answers you like.
    Thanks, I appreciate the support, because certainly you have failed spectacularly to provide any helpful answers.
    Your pseudo-questions haven't made me believe you want any answers except what you want to believe already. Noting my "spectacular failure etc." reinforces this. Someone else may give you what you want.
    Last edited by Spudly; 02-02-2018 at 12:29 AM.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  35. #35

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    Could Katz have financed this himself? Almost assuredly.
    Did he even try? No. It was never on the table.
    Did he hold the city by the short & curlies over the fires of nostalgia to get his way? 100%

    Does that sound like a good guy?

    If you had an exceedingly rich friend who asked you to buy him a new car & he said either you buy him a new car or he's moving away & don't you remember all the good times you had in his old car in the 80's, it'll just be like the old times. Oh, but he needs all the option packages this time. And he's gonna use it as an Uber when you're not around & keep all the money.

    Sounds like a douchebag friend to me, but evidently some here would consider him a paragon of virtue & a dedicated, savvy entrepreneur.

    Sheep, in brand new orange hockey jerseys. Not those last year orange hockey jerseys. Because HOCKEY!
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  36. #36
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    Speaking of which, aren't those just the fugliest team jerseys ever ?

    Reminds Top_Dawg of when Vancouver trotted out those mustard yellow abortions.


  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Could Katz have financed this himself? Almost assuredly.
    Did he even try? No. It was never on the table.
    Did he hold the city by the short & curlies over the fires of nostalgia to get his way? 100%

    Does that sound like a good guy?

    If you had an exceedingly rich friend who asked you to buy him a new car & he said either you buy him a new car or he's moving away & don't you remember all the good times you had in his old car in the 80's, it'll just be like the old times. Oh, but he needs all the option packages this time. And he's gonna use it as an Uber when you're not around & keep all the money.

    Sounds like a douchebag friend to me, but evidently some here would consider him a paragon of virtue & a dedicated, savvy entrepreneur.

    Sheep, in brand new orange hockey jerseys. Not those last year orange hockey jerseys. Because HOCKEY!
    I like the Condo example to your car example.

    Same exceedingly rich friend demands you buy a $600,000 condo for him. (this is 1,000th of the arena cost) He wants his architect and does not want to pay for it or pay property tax. He agrees to only pay $219 a month to use the condo for the term of the lease. He will allow you to use it for two weeks of the year but he collects all the revenue of the food you eat and any tent he charges to people who visit the condo or when he rents it on AirBnB.

    Should we pat the exceedingly rich friend on the back and thank him for improving the neighbourhood when your got suckered in and ended up paying for it, by taking the money from other condo owners to pay for his?


    When is the last time anyone offered you to buy you a $600,000 condo and you get to do with it what you want to and charge you only $219 a month? Sweet deal, where do I sign up for corporate welfare like this.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  38. #38

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    But look at all the investment that is happening because of the arena district, they will say, it would've never happened without the arena district, they will try to tell us.

    Perhaps the opposite is true, maybe more would've been built if the arena decision wasn't looming for a decade, and investment on hold as we waited for a decision. Perhaps Stantec would've built sooner, somewhere else downtown. The condos were still being built regardless of the decision. Edmonton Tower has been in the works for long before Katz bought the Oilers. A new hotel was long over due. Condo towers were going up no matter what, Stantec needed to consolidate their office space anyways...


    Too bad the cheerleading section of this forum can't see beyond their own false reasoning.

  39. #39

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    And without the deal/district & the CRL that underpins it, any development in the core would be creating new tax revenue for government now & not in 30 years once the debt is paid off, which always seems to be forgotten in the releases around how much funding for other Downtown wankery is possible due to the CRL. It's dubious, disingenuous accounting from the basement of Rogers to the top of Stantec.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  40. #40
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    Sure it is.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

  41. #41

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    The airport closure and repeal of building height restrictions had the most dramatic effect on downtown.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

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    People need to remember that this is all part of a larger, well coordinated PR exercise and is as much about building hype as it is about building arenas and apartment buildings. The messaging has always been nailed down, as it typically is when a group is trying to exert influence. It’s quite clear to anyone with an impatial or arms length view that the numbers that have been trotted out don’t tell the whole story and the glib responses by folks like Brad and Ian to anyone questioning the validity of the numbers are proof that they are more interested in staying on message than discussing the facts.
    Parkdale

  43. #43

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    People also need to remember that there is no small number of b!tchy old loudmouths who need to validate themselves by crapping on the work of others.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    People need to remember that this is all part of a larger, well coordinated PR exercise and is as much about building hype as it is about building arenas and apartment buildings. The messaging has always been nailed down, as it typically is when a group is trying to exert influence. It’s quite clear to anyone with an impatial or arms length view that the numbers that have been trotted out don’t tell the whole story and the glib responses by folks like Brad and Ian to anyone questioning the validity of the numbers are proof that they are more interested in staying on message than discussing the facts.
    Very thoughtful and well said. Thank you.

    However those actions shouldn’t be heavily criticized because that distorted or biased messaging is exactly what is a highly desired practice. Overselling, over-simplifying, colouring views, sometimes stating bald faced lies is how things get accomplished. Most people expect it and highly praise such behaviour.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    People also need to remember that there is no small number of b!tchy old loudmouths who need to validate themselves by crapping on the work of others.
    Also well said.

    ...but I’m sure you agree that the work of others isn’t exactly devoid of self-interest etc and likely involved ‘the crapping on others’ as well. It’s rare to meet a successful person that hasn’t somehow unfairly and unbiasedly denigrated competing works (aka backstabbed the competition)
    Last edited by KC; 02-02-2018 at 11:16 AM.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    People also need to remember that there is no small number of b!tchy old loudmouths who need to validate themselves by crapping on the work of others.
    Condescension from someone who hurts animals for pleasure doesn't really carry a lot of weight.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    People also need to remember that there is no small number of b!tchy old loudmouths who need to validate themselves by crapping on the work of others.
    Are you looking in a mirror?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    And without the deal/district & the CRL that underpins it, any development in the core would be creating new tax revenue for government now & not in 30 years once the debt is paid off, which always seems to be forgotten in the releases around how much funding for other Downtown wankery is possible due to the CRL. It's dubious, disingenuous accounting from the basement of Rogers to the top of Stantec.
    Also that any incremental cost in basic city services for the downtown that arises after December 31, 2014, is paid for by the rest of the city. At 2% inflation this means that by the end of the CRL about 30% of basic city services for downtown will not be paid by downtown but rather by the rest of the city.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Could Katz have financed this himself? Almost assuredly.
    Did he even try? No. It was never on the table.
    Did he hold the city by the short & curlies over the fires of nostalgia to get his way? 100%

    Does that sound like a good guy?

    If you had an exceedingly rich friend who asked you to buy him a new car & he said either you buy him a new car or he's moving away & don't you remember all the good times you had in his old car in the 80's, it'll just be like the old times. Oh, but he needs all the option packages this time. And he's gonna use it as an Uber when you're not around & keep all the money.

    Sounds like a douchebag friend to me, but evidently some here would consider him a paragon of virtue & a dedicated, savvy entrepreneur.

    Sheep, in brand new orange hockey jerseys. Not those last year orange hockey jerseys. Because HOCKEY!
    I like the Condo example to your car example.

    Same exceedingly rich friend demands you buy a $600,000 condo for him. (this is 1,000th of the arena cost) He wants his architect and does not want to pay for it or pay property tax. He agrees to only pay $219 a month to use the condo for the term of the lease. He will allow you to use it for two weeks of the year but he collects all the revenue of the food you eat and any tent he charges to people who visit the condo or when he rents it on AirBnB.

    Should we pat the exceedingly rich friend on the back and thank him for improving the neighbourhood when your got suckered in and ended up paying for it, by taking the money from other condo owners to pay for his?


    When is the last time anyone offered you to buy you a $600,000 condo and you get to do with it what you want to and charge you only $219 a month? Sweet deal, where do I sign up for corporate welfare like this.
    I like this example a lot. But the true cost of the arena is actually closer to $770 million not the $600 million commonly advertised.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    And without the deal/district & the CRL that underpins it, any development in the core would be creating new tax revenue for government now & not in 30 years once the debt is paid off, which always seems to be forgotten in the releases around how much funding for other Downtown wankery is possible due to the CRL. It's dubious, disingenuous accounting from the basement of Rogers to the top of Stantec.
    Also that any incremental cost in basic city services for the downtown that arises after December 31, 2014, is paid for by the rest of the city. At 2% inflation this means that by the end of the CRL about 30% of basic city services for downtown will not be paid by downtown but rather by the rest of the city.
    although, for perspective, aren’t you ignoring the fact that for a century downtown has paid considerably more in property taxes than it has received in municipal services, effectively subsidizing the rest of the city in general and residential taxpayers in particular. furthermore, for what it’s worth, that downtown subsidy to the rest of the city in general and residential taxpayers in particular will continue throughout the life of the crl.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    ^a 10 to 1 ratio or thereabouts.
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  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post

    I like this example a lot. But the true cost of the arena is actually closer to $770 million not the $600 million commonly advertised.
    Thanks, I did not know that.

    So that uber rich friend got you to pay for his $770,000 condo for him. (this is 1,000th of the arena cost) and he only pays $219 a month to use the condo for the length of the lease. Note: no annual increases to adjust for inflation. No condo fees and just who ends up paying for the building maintenance? Us or him?
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post

    I like this example a lot. But the true cost of the arena is actually closer to $770 million not the $600 million commonly advertised.
    Thanks, I did not know that.

    So that uber rich friend got you to pay for his $770,000 condo for him. (this is 1,000th of the arena cost) and he only pays $219 a month to use the condo for the length of the lease. Note: no annual increases to adjust for inflation. No condo fees and just who ends up paying for the building maintenance? Us or him?
    The true cost includes interest. So the arena is still only worth $600 million (probably less now--arenas decline in value unlike other real estate) but it was bought for $770 million. Those are the perils of using borrowed money.

    So how much you pay for your uber rich friend's condo depends on whether you're paying with your own money or someone else's money.

    The main point though is that your friend pays zero dollars for it.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    although, for perspective, aren’t you ignoring the fact that for a century downtown has paid considerably more in property taxes than it has received in municipal services, effectively subsidizing the rest of the city in general and residential taxpayers in particular.
    Isn't this the case everywhere though? Isn't that sorta the purpose of densification? What makes Edmonton special, so that a billion dollars worth of public spending is what some people feel Downtown was "owed"?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  55. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    People also need to remember that there is no small number of b!tchy old loudmouths who need to validate themselves by crapping on the work of others.
    Are you looking in a mirror?
    Just looking out at the crowd here. And their deflections.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    People also need to remember that there is no small number of b!tchy old loudmouths who need to validate themselves by crapping on the work of others.
    Also well said.

    ...but I’m sure you agree that the work of others isn’t exactly devoid of self-interest etc and likely involved ‘the crapping on others’ as well. It’s rare to meet a successful person that hasn’t somehow unfairly and unbiasedly denigrated competing works (aka backstabbed the competition)
    Natch. I guess I've been fortunate in meeting successful people that aren't the ogres that people are fond of imagining.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    So how much you pay for your uber rich friend's condo depends on whether you're paying with your own money or someone else's money.

    The main point though is that your friend pays zero dollars for it.
    and more importantly is making tons of money off of it from selling tickets, overpriced food and drinks and not sharing a dime of those profits with you.

    Nice friend. No wonder he became so rich off of other people's money.



    I am pleased with the revitalized city core but don't agree how we got there, who footed the cost, how tax dollars are redirected and that one person deserves credit.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 02-02-2018 at 12:36 PM.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  58. #58

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    Hey, the most expensive house in LA & and an alt-right blog don't grow on trees! He needs that money!
    Last edited by noodle; 02-02-2018 at 12:30 PM.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  59. #59

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    Are people just being p!ssy at Katz because the Oilers are sucking?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Interesting discussion.

    I can understand the angst, but the decision is done. The arena is built and in use. The subsequent spin off investment is underway. EEDC_Brad has a point that a lot of this wouldn't be going on sans arena.

    Debate the financial models. I encourage that. However, we are past the debate on the actual construct and we are now in the observation of the ROI. One thing is that we as a citizenry interested in this ROI need to have an agreed-to set of metrics and KPI's so that we are all singing from the same songsheet. Soft and hard benefits need to be either inclusive, or debated separately. Stadium projects are often contentious, especially when downtown investment/revitalization is the rationale.

    I pulled this Colorado Springs article
    ...1) because it was topical for a smaller American city conversation and B) they call it the City of Champions initiative....let the flame war begin on that one!!!

    Also, although Jon is admittedly biased, this segment also applies here..again...




    The title is "credit where credit is due." I can support that title as the job did get completed. I can see a different energy downtown, and all the requisite juxtapositions and hypocrisy that comes with rapid expansion. In short, I am not surprised. The one thing that is a bit surprising though, and I am looking for guidance in understanding this one, is an old thought from years ago on C2E.

    Many here were lamenting the lack of development downtown. In the late 1990's, there were cries for incentives, tax concessions, subsidies, etc...especially since Edmonton almost lost the Oilers to Houston. I was living in Houston at the time, and Les Alexander was 1000% certain it was a done deal. When it failed, the surprise there was obvious and also a little condescending. That aside, it showed just how the rest of the world thought, or more appropriately, didn't think about Edmonton's capability and ability. That led to the cried for subsidies, etc, to give Edmonton a shot in the arm - especially in the alleged graveyard that was Downtown Deadmonton.

    Fast forward to 2003 when I moved back, and the cries were even louder. Calgary was leaps and bounds ahead of Edmonton. Given the older demographic here, I won't go into nauseating detail of what many of us already know.

    So...this arena comes along...get's its subsidies and tax breaks...ostensibly aligning to the outcry. So, is it the arena vs a head office relocation that is at issue here? Hockey vs Home Depot's HQ? Doesn't this arena project give Edmonton that alleged game changing look and feel? I know the clients and tourists I've brought though think so...at least from an outward appearance.

    The bad part...OEG appears to have a stranglehold on the city in many ways. Is this true? Are other things being crushed, obliterated, or ignored in this hockey crazed town? It appears so. It seems like if the OEG doesn't like it, you can't get attention. I am open to be proven wrong...

    Overall, I think the Ice District will prove to be a good thing. I just want to see clear ROI.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

  61. #61

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    Don't forget

    We were threatened and mislead that we had to pay for the arena

    October 26, 2011, former Oilers owner Bruce Saville: “It’s about an iconic downtown arena and entertainment district that will make a new, revitalized city core, just as Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver have experienced with new downtown arenas. Do we want to be a world-class city? Do we want to be grouped with Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver? Or do we want to be grouped with Regina and Hamilton and Windsor and Moncton?

    FYI, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver had their arenas built and paid for by the hockey team.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post

    I like this example a lot. But the true cost of the arena is actually closer to $770 million not the $600 million commonly advertised.
    Thanks, I did not know that.

    So that uber rich friend got you to pay for his $770,000 condo for him. (this is 1,000th of the arena cost) and he only pays $219 a month to use the condo for the length of the lease. Note: no annual increases to adjust for inflation. No condo fees and just who ends up paying for the building maintenance? Us or him?
    The true cost includes interest. So the arena is still only worth $600 million (probably less now--arenas decline in value unlike other real estate) but it was bought for $770 million. Those are the perils of using borrowed money.

    So how much you pay for your uber rich friend's condo depends on whether you're paying with your own money or someone else's money.

    The main point though is that your friend pays zero dollars for it.
    And your "friend" also tells you that you're no longer allowed to own the other condo that you have and that you're responsible for the cost of tearing it down so it doesn't compete with a condo you also own but that all the rent collected goes into the "friend's" pocket.

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    Interesting discussion.

    I can understand the angst, but the decision is done. The arena is built and in use. The subsequent spin off investment is underway. EEDC_Brad has a point that a lot of this wouldn't be going on sans arena.

    Debate the financial models. I encourage that. However, we are past the debate on the actual construct and we are now in the observation of the ROI. One thing is that we as a citizenry interested in this ROI need to have an agreed-to set of metrics and KPI's so that we are all singing from the same songsheet. Soft and hard benefits need to be either inclusive, or debated separately. Stadium projects are often contentious, especially when downtown investment/revitalization is the rationale.

    I pulled this Colorado Springs article...1) because it was topical for a smaller American city conversation and B) they call it the City of Champions initiative....let the flame war begin on that one!!!

    Also, although Jon is admittedly biased, this segment also applies here..again...




    The title is "credit where credit is due." I can support that title as the job did get completed. I can see a different energy downtown, and all the requisite juxtapositions and hypocrisy that comes with rapid expansion. In short, I am not surprised. The one thing that is a bit surprising though, and I am looking for guidance in understanding this one, is an old thought from years ago on C2E.

    Many here were lamenting the lack of development downtown. In the late 1990's, there were cries for incentives, tax concessions, subsidies, etc...especially since Edmonton almost lost the Oilers to Houston. I was living in Houston at the time, and Les Alexander was 1000% certain it was a done deal. When it failed, the surprise there was obvious and also a little condescending. That aside, it showed just how the rest of the world thought, or more appropriately, didn't think about Edmonton's capability and ability. That led to the cried for subsidies, etc, to give Edmonton a shot in the arm - especially in the alleged graveyard that was Downtown Deadmonton.

    Fast forward to 2003 when I moved back, and the cries were even louder. Calgary was leaps and bounds ahead of Edmonton. Given the older demographic here, I won't go into nauseating detail of what many of us already know.

    So...this arena comes along...get's its subsidies and tax breaks...ostensibly aligning to the outcry. So, is it the arena vs a head office relocation that is at issue here? Hockey vs Home Depot's HQ? Doesn't this arena project give Edmonton that alleged game changing look and feel? I know the clients and tourists I've brought though think so...at least from an outward appearance.

    The bad part...OEG appears to have a stranglehold on the city in many ways. Is this true? Are other things being crushed, obliterated, or ignored in this hockey crazed town? It appears so. It seems like if the OEG doesn't like it, you can't get attention. I am open to be proven wrong...

    Overall, I think the Ice District will prove to be a good thing. I just want to see clear ROI.
    Agree that it's too late to tear the arena down and we need to focus on observation and metrics. However, this is near impossible given the ongoing spin emanating from OEG, Katz Group, EEDC, and CoE. Even basic data such as how much revenue the ticket surcharge and parking is generating is impossible to find.

    It's also impossible to say how much would be going on sans arena but again the spin is that none of it would be happening. This is almost certainly not true.

    Also you mention the stranglehold OEG has on the city. This is the real elephant in the room. Their reach and influence has permeated all levels of civic governance such that it becomes impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins. This obviously allows for undue influence--whether in regards to liquor stores, parking, or whatever else may arise in the future--but additionally further obfuscates any attempts at obtaining clear and unbiased metrics. The consequence is that the citizens of Edmonton are unable to properly assess the merits and outcomes of this "partnership".

  64. #64

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    Anyone for a good old-fashioned cabal?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  65. #65

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    Are you trying to dismiss OffWhyte's argument about the influence of OEG on all levels of civic governance (and in many respects cultural life) with some piffle about conspiracy theories? If so, you are either delusional or new in town. That is an assumed basic tenet of any discussion regarding Edmonton. No serious person thinks otherwise.

  66. #66

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    https://brad-ferguson.com/2018/01/30...credit-is-due/
    The partnership between the City of Edmonton and the Katz Group sparked $5.5 billion in new investment, created over 30,000 new jobs, generated over $750 million in new taxes, increased residential density by 20%, added 15% more restaurants and bars, all while improving the brand and reputation of our city and the pride of Edmontonians.
    You can interpret "sparked" as you wish (which will probably reflect your personal bias), but the average joe citizen is well aware that OEG/Katz/Brad Ferguson is not taking sole credit for downtown revitalization. Although I agree with the sentiment and concerns of all the above posts, I don't think building strawman "all or nothing" arguments are a good basis for thoughtful discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Anyone for a good old-fashioned cabal?

    Nah, I'm already booked in 2...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OffWhyte View Post
    Agree that it's too late to tear the arena down and we need to focus on observation and metrics. However, this is near impossible given the ongoing spin emanating from OEG, Katz Group, EEDC, and CoE. Even basic data such as how much revenue the ticket surcharge and parking is generating is impossible to find.

    It's also impossible to say how much would be going on sans arena but again the spin is that none of it would be happening. This is almost certainly not true.

    Also you mention the stranglehold OEG has on the city. This is the real elephant in the room. Their reach and influence has permeated all levels of civic governance such that it becomes impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins. This obviously allows for undue influence--whether in regards to liquor stores, parking, or whatever else may arise in the future--but additionally further obfuscates any attempts at obtaining clear and unbiased metrics. The consequence is that the citizens of Edmonton are unable to properly assess the merits and outcomes of this "partnership".
    ...the answer to this is simple...start demanding it from your councillors. Administration will get asked eventually.

    bolo has a point. This is not an all or nothing conversation. While both of you are right that OEG et al cannot take full credit for the turnaround, anecdotally, I can see they've played a major part. I cannot tell you how many other projects were started with this Ice District coming to fruition in mind, because they all have not stood up and said they invested because the arena was an odds on favorite for coming downtown.

    As for the influence part, I also cannot give specifics...but one thing that is for sure...it is easy to have influence when this city itself is hockey mad. That amount of money, influence, and civic pride can move many things and has an energy all itself. Personally, I am not a hockey nut since 2006 really soured me, but I see that this city's entertainment and dare I say identity is infused with the Oilers. I am season ticket Esks holder for many reasons...but that team cannot hold a candle to hockey as far as influence...neither can any arts initiative. Once cannot discount the reality that the hockey mad fan base is also a major part of that influence into the decisions...

    As for Brad's article, putting aside the financial concerns and ROI conversation, do you see a difference in look, feel, and energy within the City, and the core, with the Ice District? As I said before, I do. It is a better feel than anytime at Northlands..
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    https://brad-ferguson.com/2018/01/30...credit-is-due/
    The partnership between the City of Edmonton and the Katz Group sparked $5.5 billion in new investment, created over 30,000 new jobs, generated over $750 million in new taxes, increased residential density by 20%, added 15% more restaurants and bars, all while improving the brand and reputation of our city and the pride of Edmontonians.
    You can interpret "sparked" as you wish (which will probably reflect your personal bias), but the average joe citizen is well aware that OEG/Katz/Brad Ferguson is not taking sole credit for downtown revitalization. Although I agree with the sentiment and concerns of all the above posts, I don't think building strawman "all or nothing" arguments are a good basis for thoughtful discussion.
    The following quote is sourced from the same page and it says that he personally invested $2 billion. There is no interpretation needed in that. If the City gives you or me a billion dollars we would be half way there!

    "And Daryl Katz delivered. What was originally a $100 million commitment (subject to commercial efficacy) in the Arena Master Agreement has now turned into more than $2 billion of personal investment in our downtown."
    Last edited by SP59; 03-02-2018 at 12:13 AM. Reason: change font size on quote

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    although, for perspective, aren’t you ignoring the fact that for a century downtown has paid considerably more in property taxes than it has received in municipal services, effectively subsidizing the rest of the city in general and residential taxpayers in particular.
    Isn't this the case everywhere though? Isn't that sorta the purpose of densification? What makes Edmonton special, so that a billion dollars worth of public spending is what some people feel Downtown was "owed"?
    perhaps it is true everywhere. my point however, was that it’s true here and it was a counter to statements in this thread that the rest of the city is somehow subsidizing downtown here because of the arena crl. they’re not. whether you agree with the crl cost/benefit analysis is a different discussion but even if you’re right, downtown still overcontributes. and if you’re wrong, you’re really wrong. and 1/7th of the way in, it is looking like you’re pretty likely to be really wrong. anyway, we could debate this for the 30 year life if the crl without changing a thing so we might as well sit back and enjoy/make the best of the rest of the ride. the numbers will be what the numbers will be whether or not we tilt at each other’s windmills in the interim.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolo View Post
    https://brad-ferguson.com/2018/01/30...credit-is-due/
    The partnership between the City of Edmonton and the Katz Group sparked $5.5 billion in new investment, created over 30,000 new jobs, generated over $750 million in new taxes, increased residential density by 20%, added 15% more restaurants and bars, all while improving the brand and reputation of our city and the pride of Edmontonians.
    You can interpret "sparked" as you wish (which will probably reflect your personal bias), but the average joe citizen is well aware that OEG/Katz/Brad Ferguson is not taking sole credit for downtown revitalization. Although I agree with the sentiment and concerns of all the above posts, I don't think building strawman "all or nothing" arguments are a good basis for thoughtful discussion.
    I agree with this.

    Could we have gotten the same arena with less public investment? Probably

    Could we have gotten as much private investment for our money through other means? Probably

    Could we have gotten the same private investment with less public investment? Probably

    But there's no way to know what those deals would have been, and if they would have worked out. Maybe downtown could actually have succeeded on it's own, or maybe it would have continued bleeding investment.

    No one thinks the deal was perfect, and obviously Katz benefited far more than anyone else, but I don't think it was a terrible choice to make. This was a deal that although it lines the pockets of a millionaire (billionaire? idk), still will create more development and give more dollars to the city than they put in.

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    ROI, both public and private, will be looked back upon positively. We are exceptionally fortunate to have these investments/developments transpiring given the economy and many, MANY other factors. The velocity of this is incredible as is the transformative nature of it in a physical way and by way of perception. When I go to Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, hell Riverbend it is amazing how many people are impressed with what 'we' are doing here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    (...) it is amazing how many people are impressed with what 'we' are doing here.

    I want the ROI to be positive.

    ...and to reword the sentence to remove the royal "we"... it is amazing how many people are impressed with what is going on here.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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