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Thread: Humboldt hockey team tragedy

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    Default Humboldt hockey team tragedy

    Unfortunately, some members of the Humboldt Broncos hockey team.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Sad. Some of those players were from Edmonton.

    Pardon me for being glib but I doubt nothing happened to the semi driver.
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    Yes very sad. It seems rare here for buses to crash.

    ‘Our organization will never be the same’: 14 dead after Humboldt Broncos bus collides with semi – Saskatoon StarPhoenix

    http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local...-highway-crash

    ^ there was mention of the bus being T-boned.

    Wasn’t there another mass collision up north with a bus being T-boned due to the poor visibility of the bus (interior lights it being on or on but not visible from the outside???)
    Last edited by KC; 07-04-2018 at 05:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Sad. Some of those players were from Edmonton.

    Pardon me for being glib but I doubt nothing happened to the semi driver.
    Seeing as the details of the crash are not yet known, I don't think being glib is the appropriate response. We don't know who was at fault at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Sad. Some of those players were from Edmonton.

    Pardon me for being glib but I doubt nothing happened to the semi driver.
    Seeing as the details of the crash are not yet known, I don't think being glib is the appropriate response. We don't know who was at fault at this point.
    Oddly, no speculation in the media that I’ve seen so far today. (Often there’s a speed or alcohol comment. Glad to see a wait for facts.)

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    All I've seen is a mention that it was a t-bone collision. No other info.

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    My heart goes out to them all. Their lives have been changed forever.

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    Update:

    Death toll rises to 15 in Humboldt Broncos junior hockey team bus crash

    Speaking at the news conference on Saturday, RCMP Saskatchewan Assistant Commissioner Curtis Zablocki revealed new details about the crash and the investigation.


    He said the male driver of the semi-trailer was not injured and, although he was detained temporarily after the collision, he has now been released.


    Zablocki said it was too early to comment on the cause of the collision but he confirmed the semi-trailer was travelling westbound on Highway 335 when it collided with the bus travelling northbound on Highway 35.


    "This is a very involved investigation and, due to the large amount of evidence, information, and the number of victims, this work will take some time," said Zablocki.




    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...rash-1.4609835

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    I dont know how anybody made it out alive..highway 335 has stop signs AND flashing lights..( sigh)

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    I’m sure the truck driver is going through hell too.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I’m sure the truck driver is going through hell too.

    I know he is, I hope someone is keeping an eye on him..

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    Watched the memorial broadcast from Humboldt arena this evening. It was a very moving service.

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    The second link below contains a Google photo with green grass and 5 crosses next to the trees


    Humboldt Broncos bus crash: Councillors want changes at intersection | Saskatoon StarPhoenix

    A rural municipality councillor says he would like to see rumble strips installed at the intersection where a tragic bus crash happened.

    Highway 335 has stop signs with flashing warning lights at the intersection with 35, but no rumble strips that are featured at many rural highway junctions.

    ...
    “It’s a blind corner in some ways,” he said. “If you come out across that intersection, the guy in the bus is absolutely, totally unaware that you’re going to pull out in front of him because he doesn’t even see you until you’re both looking at each other.”
    ...

    “In June of 1997, a British Columbia teacher on maternity leave, her husband and their three young daughters were killed when their vehicle was broadsided by a semi-trailer truck at the same intersection.”

    http://thestarphoenix.com/news/local...y-intersection

    Signs are cheap. Maybe wherever there’s a corner with farm buildings or trees etc blocking or distracting they could add a ‘stop ahead’ sign.

    Time of day issues?

    Note the crosses in the google picture:

    Last edited by KC; 08-04-2018 at 09:31 PM.

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    Maybe some good can come out of this investigation that might apply everywhere.




    What Magic Has Taught Us About How The Brain Works


    Failure to see
    Often we can’t see obvious things that are right in front of us. Most magic involves a lot of appearing and disappearing and scientific research has shown us how easily magicians are able to trick us.

    Our eyes can only see clearly in the centre area of our visual field. This means we can only really see one thing at a time. To see more objects in our environment, we actually have to move our eyes around a couple of times a second. But each time we move them, our brain needs to attend to something new creating a lag of about 1/10 of a second. Our brain fills in those gaps based on what it expects will happen.

    See an example. ...

    “ ‘Failure to see’ can have disastrous consequences. A driver, distracted by a splash of mud on his windshield can temporarily miss an unexpected object — like a freight train — directly in front of him.”

    Our ears can impact what we see
    Some magicians use audio off-beats to trick us into thinking an object has disappeared or appeared.

    Psychological studies have confirmed that people are slower and less accurate in detecting visual stimuli when they happen away from the established rhythm.

    ...

    “We really have a much more intelligent brain than we thought, and what it does is it creates our reality,” says Ronald Rensink, a professor at the University of British Columbia.

    But it is fallible; something that magicians know all too well.

    http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/m/f...he-brain-works

    That last bit about sound could suggest a problem with rumble strips.
    Last edited by KC; 09-04-2018 at 05:50 AM.

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    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  18. #18

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    From the map in The Journal this morning, the truck driver had a stop sign, and that stand of trees was set back enough that either the trucker did not come to a full stop, or the bus was traveliing so fast that it came up on the starting-to-cross trucker before he had a chance to brake. From the location of where the two vehicles came to rest, the trucker was going faster than would have been expected from a 2-flatbed truck starting from a complete stop.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Yes, thats true. I'm sure they know this already, I just hope and pray nobody was using their cell. When you blow a stop sign, with flashing lights, something isn't right!

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    There have been accident's and people killed on that intersection before it seems.
    Mom said I should not talk to cretins!

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    Looks to me that there must have been some inattention or misjudgement on someone's part. All will be revealed, no doubt.
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    Or mechanical failure.

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    There have been accident's and people killed on that intersection before it seems.
    Both links in my post #14 above provide a lot of detail.

    However a reporter on the TV last night said there were 6 prior deaths, not 5, at that same intersection.

  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Yes, thats true. I'm sure they know this already, I just hope and pray nobody was using their cell. When you blow a stop sign, with flashing lights, something isn't right!

    “HAS TO STOP”

    Stop signs always work - in theory.

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Still, the tress create a blindspot for the non stopping traffic. As a defensive driver I like to make sure somebody isn't going to be blowing though a stop sign on a rural highway which happens often enough. its something that has saved my life multiple times over. The trees impede that line of site checking. The bus driver would have to slow right down to half speed to be proceeding there with caution.

    Stands of trees near an intersection is a huge problem in many jurisdictions and should not be blocking line of site.

    But heres the kicker. Rumble strips were not put in after the previous fatality tragedy "because they cost too much" What price are countless lives? Millions is currently being donated to help the victims and to provide services, care, etc. I wonder how much if anything goes to remediation of intersections like that that should have been improved decades ago.

    Finally, at rural highway intersections like this I often wonder why they are just not automatic 4 way stops. I think most of them should be. Either you provide adequate signage, pre warning of a stop, rumble strips, or you just make them 4 way stops and so that everybody has to stop. This allows traffic in any direction to proceed through the danger point while being able to come to a stop. The chance that different directions of traffic would all miss the stop is remote.
    Last edited by Replacement; 09-04-2018 at 09:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Yes, thats true. I'm sure they know this already, I just hope and pray nobody was using their cell. When you blow a stop sign, with flashing lights, something isn't right!

    “HAS TO STOP”

    Stop signs always work - in theory.
    Stop sign AND flashing lights, that's not good driving, anyway you look at it!

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Yes, thats true. I'm sure they know this already, I just hope and pray nobody was using their cell. When you blow a stop sign, with flashing lights, something isn't right!

    “HAS TO STOP”

    Stop signs always work - in theory.
    Stop sign AND flashing lights, that's not good driving, anyway you look at it!
    Anyway you look at it, if you look at it. Also, where was the sun at that time?

    Maybe dispatch called... there’s so many things that can cause distraction.

    Cops are among the best class of drivers out there yet I came very close once to being run over by a cop car in a parking lot. Cop was distracted by kids at door of a 7-11 or whatever store it was and I could see him looking back as he drove in an arc towards me.

    Know of another situation where a cop accidentally crossed a centre line on a curve and went into an oncoming car. Killed the fiancée of someone we know. Interestingly despite the cops skid marks showing that he had crossed the line (even visible in one newspaper article), several media reports tried to blame, or implied the blame, was on the kids and not the cop. A real eye opener to media spin.


    Anyway, all it takes is a little distraction or inattention at the wrong time. A simple mistake or even an inability of the mind to properly process something or other.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Stop sign AND flashing lights, that's not good driving, anyway you look at it!
    In addition there IS an advance warning yellow diamond on the west bound hwy prior to the stop sign and light. Like most I am going to be very interested in the investigation findings. If I sound like I'm putting my cards on driver error on the semi's part. You're right.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Still, the tress create a blindspot for the non stopping traffic. As a defensive driver I like to make sure somebody isn't going to be blowing though a stop sign on a rural highway which happens often enough. its something that has saved my life multiple times over. The trees impede that line of site checking. The bus driver would have to slow right down to half speed to be proceeding there with caution.

    Stands of trees near an intersection is a huge problem in many jurisdictions and should not be blocking line of site.

    But heres the kicker. Rumble strips were not put in after the previous fatality tragedy "because they cost too much" What price are countless lives? Millions is currently being donated to help the victims and to provide services, care, etc. I wonder how much if anything goes to remediation of intersections like that that should have been improved decades ago.

    Finally, at rural highway intersections like this I often wonder why they are just not automatic 4 way stops. I think most of them should be. Either you provide adequate signage, pre warning of a stop, rumble strips, or you just make them 4 way stops and so that everybody has to stop. This allows traffic in any direction to proceed through the danger point while being able to come to a stop. The chance that different directions of traffic would all miss the stop is remote.
    I agree with the preventative measures going forward.
    But in addressing this intersection as it is today; the two roads and grove of trees have been there for decades, the stop sign for decades, all known to the area residents. The flashing light and advanced warning to stop sign ahead have been there for at least 18 years. The suggestion of caution may have been prudent in the case of the bus driver, no offense but you are likely the exception if you are slowing down at a controlled intersection when you have the ROW. I'm more cautious than most drivers as I ride a motorcycle regularly (and have taken multiple safety courses to reinforce the caution aspect) and I'm not sure I would have 'covered my brake' if heading northbound on this route.
    Early accounts have the semi impacting at speed. Short of a medical event like a seizure I don't know how there cannot be blame. Even mechanical failure doesn't fly. Brake failure could be a likely candidate and if there's brake failure on the semi that should have noticed well in advance during the slowing down phase of approaching the intersection. 100's of meters away. And if that's the case, put it in the farmers field.
    Last edited by bpeters; 10-04-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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    It may be time to consider more roundabouts in rural areas.

    However I imagine in the near future some kind of sensors / transmitters might be able improve signage, communicate with vehicles based on vehicle size, speed, estimated stopping distance etc.

    Maybe transfer block box data / telemetry to boxes on signs and then relay that to the next vehicle. Previous car skids on ice, that gets sent to the next oncoming vehicle maybe by Bluetooth (a preceding relay post might be needed). Next driver gets a warning. At a minimum if brakes are depressed according to some parameters, then an audible warning is issued. ...

    Something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Still, the tress create a blindspot for the non stopping traffic. As a defensive driver I like to make sure somebody isn't going to be blowing though a stop sign on a rural highway which happens often enough. its something that has saved my life multiple times over. The trees impede that line of site checking. The bus driver would have to slow right down to half speed to be proceeding there with caution.

    Stands of trees near an intersection is a huge problem in many jurisdictions and should not be blocking line of site.

    But heres the kicker. Rumble strips were not put in after the previous fatality tragedy "because they cost too much" What price are countless lives? Millions is currently being donated to help the victims and to provide services, care, etc. I wonder how much if anything goes to remediation of intersections like that that should have been improved decades ago.

    Finally, at rural highway intersections like this I often wonder why they are just not automatic 4 way stops. I think most of them should be. Either you provide adequate signage, pre warning of a stop, rumble strips, or you just make them 4 way stops and so that everybody has to stop. This allows traffic in any direction to proceed through the danger point while being able to come to a stop. The chance that different directions of traffic would all miss the stop is remote.
    I agree with the preventative measures going forward.
    But in addressing this intersection as it is today; the two roads and grove of trees have been there for decades, the stop sign for decades, all known to the area residents. The flashing light and advanced warning to stop sign ahead have been there for at least 18 years. The suggestion of caution may have been prudent in the case of the bus driver, no offense but you are likely the exception if you are slowing down at a controlled intersection when you have the ROW. I'm more cautious than most drivers as I ride a motorcycle regularly (and have taken multiple safety courses to reinforce the caution aspect) and I'm not sure I would have 'covered my brake' if heading northbound on this route.
    Early accounts have the semi impacting at speed. Short of a medical event like a seizure I don't know how there cannot be blame. Even mechanical failure doesn't fly. Brake failure could be a likely candidate and if there's brake failure on the semi that should have noticed well in advance during the slowing down phase of approaching the intersection. 100's of meters away. And if that's the case, put it in the farmers field.
    I agree with your post100%. Especially.: put it in the field '. As we owned a trucking company for over 20 years, my husband knew right away what had happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Stop sign AND flashing lights, that's not good driving, anyway you look at it!
    In addition there IS an advance warning yellow diamond on the west bound hwy prior to the stop sign and light. Like most I am going to be very interested in the investigation findings. If I sound like I'm putting my cards on driver error on the semi's part. You're right.
    Yes, I am as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Still, the tress create a blindspot for the non stopping traffic. As a defensive driver I like to make sure somebody isn't going to be blowing though a stop sign on a rural highway which happens often enough. its something that has saved my life multiple times over. The trees impede that line of site checking. The bus driver would have to slow right down to half speed to be proceeding there with caution.

    Stands of trees near an intersection is a huge problem in many jurisdictions and should not be blocking line of site.

    But heres the kicker. Rumble strips were not put in after the previous fatality tragedy "because they cost too much" What price are countless lives? Millions is currently being donated to help the victims and to provide services, care, etc. I wonder how much if anything goes to remediation of intersections like that that should have been improved decades ago.

    Finally, at rural highway intersections like this I often wonder why they are just not automatic 4 way stops. I think most of them should be. Either you provide adequate signage, pre warning of a stop, rumble strips, or you just make them 4 way stops and so that everybody has to stop. This allows traffic in any direction to proceed through the danger point while being able to come to a stop. The chance that different directions of traffic would all miss the stop is remote.
    I agree with the preventative measures going forward.

    But in addressing this intersection as it is today; the two roads and grove of trees have been there for decades, the stop sign for decades, all known to the area residents. The flashing light and advanced warning to stop sign ahead have been there for at least 18 years. The suggestion of caution may have been prudent in the case of the bus driver, no offense but you are likely the exception if you are slowing down at a controlled intersection when you have the ROW. I'm more cautious than most drivers as I ride a motorcycle regularly (and have taken multiple safety courses to reinforce the caution aspect) and I'm not sure I would have 'covered my brake' if heading northbound on this route.
    Early accounts have the semi impacting at speed. Short of a medical event like a seizure I don't know how there cannot be blame. Even mechanical failure doesn't fly. Brake failure could be a likely candidate and if there's brake failure on the semi that should have noticed well in advance during the slowing down phase of approaching the intersection. 100's of meters away. And if that's the case, put it in the farmers field.

    I would guess that any early accounts having the semi impacting at speed are wrong. It looks like the bus hit the tractor trailer unit. I suspect the truck driver will be found at fault for failing to stop at a controlled intersection.

    While there are trees at the corner the bus driver could have seen the truck on 335 from a quarter of a mile away.

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    My guess is this will be careless driving causing death or something similar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    What direction was the semi driving? There are some trees on one corner that could act as a blind spot.
    The trees are irrelevant. Westbound traffic (the direction the semi was going) HAS TO STOP at the stop sign. The bus had right of way.
    Still, the tress create a blindspot for the non stopping traffic. As a defensive driver I like to make sure somebody isn't going to be blowing though a stop sign on a rural highway which happens often enough. its something that has saved my life multiple times over. The trees impede that line of site checking. The bus driver would have to slow right down to half speed to be proceeding there with caution.

    Stands of trees near an intersection is a huge problem in many jurisdictions and should not be blocking line of site.

    But heres the kicker. Rumble strips were not put in after the previous fatality tragedy "because they cost too much" What price are countless lives? Millions is currently being donated to help the victims and to provide services, care, etc. I wonder how much if anything goes to remediation of intersections like that that should have been improved decades ago.

    Finally, at rural highway intersections like this I often wonder why they are just not automatic 4 way stops. I think most of them should be. Either you provide adequate signage, pre warning of a stop, rumble strips, or you just make them 4 way stops and so that everybody has to stop. This allows traffic in any direction to proceed through the danger point while being able to come to a stop. The chance that different directions of traffic would all miss the stop is remote.
    I agree with the preventative measures going forward.

    But in addressing this intersection as it is today; the two roads and grove of trees have been there for decades, the stop sign for decades, all known to the area residents. The flashing light and advanced warning to stop sign ahead have been there for at least 18 years. The suggestion of caution may have been prudent in the case of the bus driver, no offense but you are likely the exception if you are slowing down at a controlled intersection when you have the ROW. I'm more cautious than most drivers as I ride a motorcycle regularly (and have taken multiple safety courses to reinforce the caution aspect) and I'm not sure I would have 'covered my brake' if heading northbound on this route.
    Early accounts have the semi impacting at speed. Short of a medical event like a seizure I don't know how there cannot be blame. Even mechanical failure doesn't fly. Brake failure could be a likely candidate and if there's brake failure on the semi that should have noticed well in advance during the slowing down phase of approaching the intersection. 100's of meters away. And if that's the case, put it in the farmers field.

    I would guess that any early accounts having the semi impacting at speed are wrong. It looks like the bus hit the tractor trailer unit. I suspect the truck driver will be found at fault for failing to stop at a controlled intersection.

    While there are trees at the corner the bus driver could have seen the truck on 335 from a quarter of a mile away.
    You just expect said truck to come to a complete stop, and not pull out and T- bone your vehicle!

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    I would guess that any early accounts having the semi impacting at speed are wrong. It looks like the bus hit the tractor trailer unit. I suspect the truck driver will be found at fault for failing to stop at a controlled intersection.

    While there are trees at the corner the bus driver could have seen the truck on 335 from a quarter of a mile away.
    Yes, based on the condition of the tractor unit it appears that the bus T-boned the semi. Still a lot of variables involved here. The trees to me are of little to no significance. If this trac/trailer unit came to a stop, determined there was a safe opportunity to proceed he should be visible in the middle of the intersection. Trees are not a factor at this point. Which is what I think you are suggesting in your last comment. If this is the case, the bus driver should have had time to evaluate the situation. There is a slight chance the bus driver did see the trac/trailer unit, did not reduce speed and underestimated the time the rig would take to vacate the intersection as these units move slow from a stand still. If the semi slow crawled/rolled though/or blew through the stop sign there would little opportunity for the bus to avoid. I can see why these investigations take a long time.
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    ^Given the landing zone, downstream of the direction of the truck, I'd have to disagree.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Driving with undue care and attention causing death and injury times 29 has got to get this trucker some serious jail time. I know it's an accident but truckers must take more care. Maybe he, or she, was practicing for new driverless technology but hadn't installed it yet. Seriously though the trucker must take responsibility for his or her actions-non actions. Flying through a stop sign is not acceptable, even if he or she was from out of state and not familiar. All the more reason to be extra cautious I would say. Fifteen years would be a year for each life lost. That would be acceptable to me. I've trucked and I know some things. I've driven in such fog that I would've parked it but my boss said just as long as you can follow that white line keep trucking, regardless. Not that fog has anything to do with this but truckers are pushed to deliver deliver deliver. Time is money. The trucking company must also bear some responsibility. I ended up quitting that job but still hold my class 1.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 10-04-2018 at 05:12 PM.

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    I have a hard time with that kind of punishment because while running the stop sign and possibly speeding are totally the driver's responsibility there's a huge "chance" factor that makes the difference between an oh **** moment and a mass casualty crash.

    The driver should never drive again, I think that much is clear.

    There should be other consequences - community service, suspended sentence that kicks in if he ever drives - but unless it can be shown that the driver was distracted or fatigued or impaired and drove anyway I don't see what good there is in putting him in prison.

    I wouldn't at be at all surprised if he was distracted, though, and if so that should be worth a few years.
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    The GoFundMe total is $7.8 M
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    The GoFundMe total is $7.8 M
    Amazing! Canada has wrapped it's arms around Humboldt.

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    Logan Boulet donor.. What a wonderful, wonderful gift. Now six people have a better life because of him. Bless him, and bless his family.

    I cannot imagine how the family felt, that thought their son had survived, only to find out there was a mix up, and he had died. Or the family that realised their son was not dead, can you imagine?? So many sad stories, I've cried with the families that wanted to talk about their sons.

    The young man that was paralyzed, simply said, sledge hockey dad, and bringing home the gold.

    The go fund me page has reached over 7 million!
    Last, but not least, I think do think of the semi driver that has to live with this for the rest of his life, I know how my DH would feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Driving with undue care and attention causing death and injury times 29 has got to get this trucker some serious jail time. I know it's an accident but truckers must take more care. Maybe he, or she, was practicing for new driverless technology but hadn't installed it yet. Seriously though the trucker must take responsibility for his or her actions-non actions. Flying through a stop sign is not acceptable, even if he or she was from out of state and not familiar. All the more reason to be extra cautious I would say. Fifteen years would be a year for each life lost. That would be acceptable to me. I've trucked and I know some things. I've driven in such fog that I would've parked it but my boss said just as long as you can follow that white line keep trucking, regardless. Not that fog has anything to do with this but truckers are pushed to deliver deliver deliver. Time is money. The trucking company must also bear some responsibility. I ended up quitting that job but still hold my class 1.
    Will have to wait and see.

    However, the luck of circumstance is fascinating. Someone does illegal drugs, doesn’t get caught or has wealthy connected parents etc that get them off and they can become President or Prime Minister or even a judge. Someone else gets caught and their life is ruined. Moreover, years later the Presiddnt can even admit to it and everyone just shrugs.

    Or say two drivers make EXACTLY THE SAME ERROR but in the case of one, a factor out of their control leads to death and the other just random luck avoids a death (maybe the matter of a split second) and one driver ends up paying a huge price and the other driver continues happily along.
    Last edited by KC; 10-04-2018 at 08:53 PM.

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    I wonder if the driver had a medical emergency?
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    I see this intersection, and I am reminded of a few out this way that I know of. They are obscured by trees, hard to see the stop sign, and if you are not familiar with the area...you'll blow right through it...or end up pulling out with the bad vision.

    I have a sneaking feeling that this is a contributing factor. Not an excuse per se...but the design of that intersection is suspect. I've seen many a horrific collision due to intersections like these (Highway 39/60 interchange is an example)...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    I wonder if the driver had a medical emergency?
    He might of. But parents saw him, and he waved them away, said he was okay..

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    Pardon me, let me clarify this. The driver of the semi might have had a medical emergency. The driver apparently had only been with the Calgary based firm for about a month. Some details about the driver and the owner of the company:

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...ash-suspended/
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    Why dont we wait for a conclusive assessment before any judgement is made. We do not know who is at fault here. What has a little perturbed is the notion that if you don't live or work there, you can't drive on that road. That is a venture into hard cmmunism which we are not.
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    I do not see where anyone said that if you don't live or work there, you can't drive the road. Mind you, I haven't read every post. Long haul trucking involves people driving on unfamiliar roads all the time. It is why road design and driver attentiveness is so crucial. I know of several intersections around Edmonton alone that either are death traps, or have had their fair share of accidents just like the one in this thread...except it didn't eviscerate an entire hockey team.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    It was on the news last night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    I see this intersection, and I am reminded of a few out this way that I know of. They are obscured by trees, hard to see the stop sign, and if you are not familiar with the area...you'll blow right through it...or end up pulling out with the bad vision.

    I have a sneaking feeling that this is a contributing factor. Not an excuse per se...but the design of that intersection is suspect. I've seen many a horrific collision due to intersections like these (Highway 39/60 interchange is an example)...
    Sorry Richard I can't buy the 'hard to see stop sign' or 'not familiar with the road' angle. A stop sign is a stop sign is a stop sign and this one has a flashing light above and an advanced 'stop sign ahead' sign. If you are at a complete stop at the sign in question you are beyond the trees, there is adequate visibility to assess any traffic situations.
    I do agree there are many intersections like this all over Canada. You drive accordingly. Caution and good judgement are paramount.
    Last edited by bpeters; 11-04-2018 at 08:09 AM.
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    ...Sec Highway 627 and Sec Highway 770...perfect example.

    Over the years, it saw many HORRIFIC accidents. I know when I was working at TransAlta, it was common to see one a year.

    Initially, it had a little stop sign, and one resident with trees right up to the intersection. It also has a small hill about 200m north - incredibly shallow but shallow enough to obscure visibility. People blew through the stop sign frequently, and some paid.

    So...in comes rumble strips...the resident had to completely change the access to the home...and a stop sign so large you could call it a UFO..complete with flashing light. Trees were removed...

    Still...accidents. Still...deaths. Many semis hauling anything and everything to service the 3 thermal plants in the area. Gravel trucks abound (huge frequency...not uncommon to count 80 on a trip out west to the power plants)....

    The accidents were so frequent, they eventually installed traffic lights on this intersection about a year ago. Just before construction started, a horrific accident at the intersection claimed more lives.

    The most often heard complaint? Visibility. Sure, one can look at the accident as you drive by and can surmise that the driver simply blew through the stop sign...but I am not an accident investigator.

    Lights installed. Accident rate so far (knock on wood) is zero.

    Yes, caution and good judgment are paramount. I agree wholeheartedly. I am not excusing bad behaviour or inattentive drivers...but this intersection in Sask. reminded me of 627/770, 770/39, 39/22, 39/60, 633/44, 44/37, 627/779, a myriad along 21....
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    It was on the news last night.
    OK...thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS View Post
    ...Sec Highway 627 and Sec Highway 770...perfect example.

    Over the years, it saw many HORRIFIC accidents. I know when I was working at TransAlta, it was common to see one a year.

    Initially, it had a little stop sign, and one resident with trees right up to the intersection. It also has a small hill about 200m north - incredibly shallow but shallow enough to obscure visibility. People blew through the stop sign frequently, and some paid.

    So...in comes rumble strips...the resident had to completely change the access to the home...and a stop sign so large you could call it a UFO..complete with flashing light. Trees were removed...

    Still...accidents. Still...deaths. Many semis hauling anything and everything to service the 3 thermal plants in the area. Gravel trucks abound (huge frequency...not uncommon to count 80 on a trip out west to the power plants)....

    The accidents were so frequent, they eventually installed traffic lights on this intersection about a year ago. Just before construction started, a horrific accident at the intersection claimed more lives.

    The most often heard complaint? Visibility. Sure, one can look at the accident as you drive by and can surmise that the driver simply blew through the stop sign...but I am not an accident investigator.

    Lights installed. Accident rate so far (knock on wood) is zero.

    Yes, caution and good judgment are paramount. I agree wholeheartedly. I am not excusing bad behaviour or inattentive drivers...but this intersection in Sask. reminded me of 627/770, 770/39, 39/22, 39/60, 633/44, 44/37, 627/779, a myriad along 21....
    Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

    Highway driving can be hypnotic, especially at night, alone, on a straight highway with little or no traffic and monotonous terrain. White line fever. Similar to a dream state.

    It's like impaired driving. Expecting people to always use caution and good judgement may be a fool's game at the best of times, but under those conditions we should perhaps expect that they might not and design with that in mind. If people always drove with full attention we wouldn't need rumble strips anywhere.

    I can't remember if it was a mayor, or which other official, but I read a quote from someone saying people blow through that stop all the time. Sitting here at the computer in my home office it doesn't make sense that someone would put their own lives risk like that. Counter-intuitive.

    We need to examine whether something in the design contributed to the problem, or whether there's something we need to be doing to address the problem (rumble strips, brighter lights, better signage, removing visual obstructions, etc.). It's rarely one thing - more often it's a combination of things.

    Of course we need to look at the driver, the vehicle, and the training. It seems likely to me that he made a mistake, and blew through the light. People don't normally make mistakes that put their own lives at risk, but it happens, and maybe it happened here. He missed the light (or ignored it - a different problem).

    If that stand of trees wasn't blocking his view of the bus, he would have needed to make two mistakes - also missing the bus. If there was a rumble strip he would have needed to make 3 mistakes. Better signage, sound of some sort, brighter lights, ... Etc.

    As you point out there are numerous intersections similar to that one on our highways. That's a lot of rumble strips and lights. Not as easily done as said. We're behind on some highway twinning too if I'm not mistaken. It's expensive.

    I love trees. The stand of trees obstructing the view or traffic is where I have my biggest problem. And I see it a lot, even here in the city.

    I don't have the answers, as usual. It's not that simple, or easy. Each intersection comes with it's own set of issues.

    We also need to frame the problem. Are drivers missing the signs? Or are they ignoring them because the perceived risk is low and they're in a hurry?

    Most people think it will never happen to them, and they're right - until it does.
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    Casting blame before all the facts are in is a reckless exercise and it could be months before investigators determine what caused the crash

    Speculation is all fine and well but lets remember the driver of the semi is a victim here to. From what I understand he's going through a lot of psychological trauma.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Casting blame before all the facts are in is a reckless exercise and it could be months before investigators determine what caused the crash

    Speculation is all fine and well but lets remember the driver of the semi is a victim here to. From what I understand he's going through a lot of psychological trauma.

    I think as adults, we can all make up our minds as to what we think was the cause. It's in the media and many of them do the very same thing.

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    I don't think speculation on what happened is a negative thing. Its just conversation. The investigation will reveal what happened. But the discussion about "what should be there (for safety reasons)", "what other people have done regularly at this intersection (blow through) in the past", "if the trees obstructed the view" are butkus. This is about the here and now. What are the variables as they are today and up to today? What happened in this actual event and not in past events or how to prevent. Preventative measures can be addressed following the investigation findings. We don't need to address whether rumble strips or removal of trees could have prevented this event. They are not there.
    Example (not judgement), if semi driver was completely hammered and blasted through a stop sign no amount of 'tree clearing', or brighter light, or rumble strip was going to prevent it.
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    There are no facts or any detaiĺs released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There are no facts or any detaiĺ released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
    I think anyone that doesn't have a clue, is stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    I don't think speculation on what happened is a negative thing. Its just conversation. The investigation will reveal what happened. But the discussion about "what should be there (for safety reasons)", "what other people have done regularly at this intersection (blow through) in the past", "if the trees obstructed the view" are butkus. This is about the here and now. What are the variables as they are today and up to today? What happened in this actual event and not in past events or how to prevent. Preventative measures can be addressed following the investigation findings. We don't need to address whether rumble strips or removal of trees could have prevented this event. They are not there.
    Example (not judgement), if semi driver was completely hammered and blasted through a stop sign no amount of 'tree clearing', or brighter light, or rumble strip was going to prevent it.
    I agree, or being on a cellphone, or speeding aren't going to prevent it. A driver with experience would have laid that semi into a ditch!

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    Highway driving can be hypnotic, especially at night, alone, on a straight highway with little or no traffic and monotonous terrain. White line fever. Similar to a dream state.
    If this starts to happen, a driver with experience would know that means they are tired, and should pull over for a sleep. Just 30 minutes would stop that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There are no facts or any detaiĺ released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
    I think anyone that doesn't have a clue, is stupid.
    Stupid is a strong word. Un informed maybe.
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    What are the clues? As far as know, it is still in the investigation process. The same inuendos were casted on the truck driver that killed many workers whom were on that Diversify bus back in 2006 only to find out afterward the bus attempted a u turn when it was stuck in traffic on the way to Fort Mc.Murray. i certaił dont want to assume or present gossip. No forumers on here were there, and there were no direct witness to the accident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by envaneo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There are no facts or any detaiĺ released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
    I think anyone that doesn't have a clue, is stupid.
    Stupid is a strong word. Un informed maybe.
    if ya like

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    Dayna Brons, the athletic therapist, has passed away.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There are no facts or any detaiĺs released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
    Its not about making up their mind. It's an open forum speculating. So what? Your only contribution is too keep policing any posts that present a scenario with the semi driver being at fault. I and H.L. have said the investigation with likely reveal what happened. But its still open for discussion. That's what we do. What are you afraid of? Taking a stand? Having an opinion?
    There's a very real chance that the bus driver was inattentive and had eyes off the straight road ahead of him for minutes in a row and plowed into an innocent tractor trailer unit harmlessly going about his way. Is this better? We get it. The investigative will reveal. Have an opinion or don't. But if simply repeating 'there are no facts or details' ad nauseum is your thing, great. Why not wait until the final results are in so you tell us "I told you so?"
    Yes we werent' there. Yes, we didn't witness it. So we just shut up? H.L. has some experience in the trucking industry and I've ridden those buses on similar roads in my hockey playing youth. This hits home for me. When I rode, the bus driver was off limits. No distracting. No goofing off in his/her general area. The coaches, staff and parents road up front for the most part to deter that cause 'kids will be kids' and that was kept to the back. So IN MY EXPERIENCE I'm running out of reasons that this is bus driver error and I'm only sharing my thoughts. And I could be completely wrong. But I'm tiring of someone posting with a disguised way of telling me I'm stupid and to shut up.
    Last edited by bpeters; 12-04-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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    The trucker flew through the stop sign and caused the death of 16 people and badly injured 13 others. He made a terrible mistake. Sounds pretty simple to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There are no facts or any detaiĺs released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
    Its not about making up their mind. It's an open forum speculating. So what? Your only contribution is too keep policing any posts that present a scenario with the semi driver being at fault. I and H.L. have said the investigation with likely reveal what happened. But its still open for discussion. That's what we do. What are you afraid of? Taking a stand? Having an opinion?
    There's a very real chance that the bus driver was inattentive and had eyes off the straight road ahead of him for minutes in a row and plowed into a harmless tractor trailer unit harmlessly going about his way. Is this better? We get it. The investigative will reveal. Have an opinion or don't. But if simply repeating 'there are no facts or details' ad nauseum is your thing, great. Why not wait until the final results are in so you tell us "I told you so?"
    Yes we werent' there. Yes, we didn't witness it. So we just shut up? H.L. has some experience in the trucking industry and I've ridden those buses on similar roads in my hockey playing youth. This hits home for me. When I road, the bus driver was off limits. No distracting. No goofing off in his/her general area. The coaches, staff and parents road up front for the most part to deter that cause 'kids will be kids' and that was kept to the back. So IN MY EXPERIENCE I'm running out of reasons that this is bus driver error and I'm only sharing my thoughts. And I could be completely wrong. But I'm tiring of someone posting with a disguised way of telling me I'm stupid and to shut up.
    People are regularly dying on our roads in large numbers. They usually involve just one or two people, get a 10 second comment on the TV and the broadcaster then moves on to another story often with a smile. No one likes to talk or even spend a moment thinking about those dead people or their accidents. It’s not until truly horrible mass crashes occur where the lost ones get any real attention. A “good” that can come out of such tragic events is a level headed discussion of the event and what has been lost, how it happened or could have happened and how such tragedies could be avoided in the future. No one can now say that a whole lot of truckers and trucking companies (and bussing companies) aren’t also speculating about what happened. Everyone is thinking about it. That act alone is will likely save lives going forward.

    Here? Who knows. There are probabilities but always some likelihood of something unusual. A manifold leak and gas in the cab causing confusion, an unshakable reflection of the sun on the snow, whatever. The investigation will likely figure it out.

    Nonetheless, where a single person dies, maybe under the very same circumstsnces little thought or action is going to come from it, nor a 100 like it. Loosing all these kids at once can cause a lot introspective and maybe even broad action so fewer families face the same tragedies in the future.
    Last edited by KC; 11-04-2018 at 08:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    There are no facts or any detaiĺs released, so how someone could make up their mind is quite stupid as far as im concerned.
    Its not about making up their mind. It's an open forum speculating. So what? Your only contribution is too keep policing any posts that present a scenario with the semi driver being at fault. I and H.L. have said the investigation with likely reveal what happened. But its still open for discussion. That's what we do. What are you afraid of? Taking a stand? Having an opinion?
    There's a very real chance that the bus driver was inattentive and had eyes off the straight road ahead of him for minutes in a row and plowed into a harmless tractor trailer unit harmlessly going about his way. Is this better? We get it. The investigative will reveal. Have an opinion or don't. But if simply repeating 'there are no facts or details' ad nauseum is your thing, great. Why not wait until the final results are in so you tell us "I told you so?"
    Yes we werent' there. Yes, we didn't witness it. So we just shut up? H.L. has some experience in the trucking industry and I've ridden those buses on similar roads in my hockey playing youth. This hits home for me. When I road, the bus driver was off limits. No distracting. No goofing off in his/her general area. The coaches, staff and parents road up front for the most part to deter that cause 'kids will be kids' and that was kept to the back. So IN MY EXPERIENCE I'm running out of reasons that this is bus driver error and I'm only sharing my thoughts. And I could be completely wrong. But I'm tiring of someone posting with a disguised way of telling me I'm stupid and to shut up.

    One of the parents, first on scene was on the news tonight. A cop said to him it looks like someone blew a stop sign.
    This semi driver was only driving for 15 days, did I hear that right? The strange thing for me, is I haven't heard a sorry from the owner( who only had two trucks) or the driver...I only know how our guys reacted, if a small car ran into the back of them...they called 911, made sure the person was okay, and they weren't at fault. Is the driver still in Canada????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The trucker flew through the stop sign and caused the death of 16 people and badly injured 13 others. He made a terrible mistake. Sounds pretty simple to me.
    It did to us from the start, and it looks like it did to the cops.You see enough accidents, you know what happened.
    A truck ran into a school bus today, apparently he crossed the road, cell, text?nah...

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    Its going to take Police a long time to figure out what happened. We don't know the full details yet as poster here have been saying this since Friday.
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    https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/calgar...hing-1.3880871

    He said sorry.

    We don't know the full details, but I'm betting the newbie driver blew the stop sign..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The trucker flew through the stop sign and caused the death of 16 people and badly injured 13 others. He made a terrible mistake. Sounds pretty simple to me.
    Speculatig without facts is gossiping at the expense of those whom have lost love ones or all involved. Is there even a small trace of evidence to back that up? What if the truck had a sudden mechanical issue approaching that stop sign ? It could also he the bus driver that was at fault. I find this disturbing that we are gossiping while some feel like theyre going through hell at this stage from losing love ones, and we are trying to justify that begavior. I had a situation where my breaks fail on me coming to a 4 way stop while driving within the law and commonsense. The split second feeling you get were hoping you wont hit someone with a sense of panicking let alone killing someone. The best we should do is give them support through our spirit, but, instead, we gossip for our entertainment. If you feel im calling you stupid, my answer to that is stop your selfishness at the expense of others that are in pain right now. Put yourself in their shoes for both sides. Once the findings come through, judge and speculate as you like as that is all game.
    Last edited by ctzn-Ed; 12-04-2018 at 01:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    Its not about making up their mind. It's an open forum speculating. So what? Your only contribution is too keep policing any posts that present a scenario with the semi driver being at fault. I and H.L. have said the investigation with likely reveal what happened. But its still open for discussion. That's what we do. What are you afraid of? Taking a stand? Having an opinion?
    There's a very real chance that the bus driver was inattentive and had eyes off the straight road ahead of him for minutes in a row and plowed into a harmless tractor trailer unit harmlessly going about his way. Is this better? We get it. The investigative will reveal. Have an opinion or don't. But if simply repeating 'there are no facts or details' ad nauseum is your thing, great. Why not wait until the final results are in so you tell us "I told you so?"
    Yes we werent' there. Yes, we didn't witness it. So we just shut up? H.L. has some experience in the trucking industry and I've ridden those buses on similar roads in my hockey playing youth. This hits home for me. When I road, the bus driver was off limits. No distracting. No goofing off in his/her general area. The coaches, staff and parents road up front for the most part to deter that cause 'kids will be kids' and that was kept to the back. So IN MY EXPERIENCE I'm running out of reasons that this is bus driver error and I'm only sharing my thoughts. And I could be completely wrong. But I'm tiring of someone posting with a disguised way of telling me I'm stupid and to shut up.
    I too know those busses...and lost a classmate and friend in the Swift Current accident. When I heard of this one, it hit home.

    To your valid points...

    There are actually several facts that are out, and indisputable. That is what is leading people to speculate, and rightly so as you mention. Also, no one here is vilifying the driver outright...maybe in other circles...but I don't read any of that here.

    The Global scene recreation this am stated that there is no doubt by the RCMP that the truck ran the stop sign. There is no dispute that the bus hit the trailer, not the tractor. The evidence is right there in the wreckage. There is no dispute that the bus was traveling at highway speeds. Also, as I mentioned in earlier posts, the trees when placed in situ in the recreation clearly show the northbound lanes 100% obscured for westbound traffic, and the westbound traffic 100% obscured for the northbound bus. That left a reaction/intersection transit time of about 0.68 seconds.

    So, knowing how tractor trailer units do not accelerate like a rocket, that 0.68 seconds of transit time in the intersection for the bus would have easily had both drivers in a position to not even come in contact if the tractor/trailer unit was either stopped and then just starting, or came to a virtual rolling stop and then started rolling. Every recreation that allows for this collision has the truck traveling at highway speeds or just under.

    So, the remaining facts that are needed are the cause of the distraction - sun, pressure from work to hit timetables, distracted driving, mechanical failure, etc. However, there is no visible signs of the tractor making any evasive manoeuvers to indicate a knowledge of brake failure (aka gearing down, jake, hitting the ditch, etc) as given the time needed to decelerate a large vehicle is lengthy...a fact most car drivers don't take into account as they cut off my brothers and sisters driving the big rigs...

    Unfortunately, all signs are pointing to a distraction of some kind...

    ...and ctzn-Ed...I know full well how drivers of big rigs feel after this kind of accident. When my sister was killed outside Revelstoke in a head-on with a rig, that driver was inconsolable. I don't think he ever drove again, I am not sure as the family has lost contact. It was not his fault - her friend pulled out in traffic in a rush to pass another semi...the rest is history. Many people here are friends with...or have driven trucks. We've seen the results. We've seen the stupidity of cars trying to sneak into the right lane as a rig is trying to turn right. We've witnessed inattentive or outright careless drivers cut off semi's... I am sure this driver is absolutely inconsolable right now...mistake or mechanical...it won't matter...my heart breaks...I firmly believe that 99.99% of people don't wake up with the intention of causing horrific traffic accidents.

    ...but I also see the dark side of trucking. I also have a new gravel haul approved on the little road by my house....so combined with the current one I will have ~160 movements per hour of 35 tonne gravel haulers from 6 am to 6 pm. The road they use by my place was designed in 1963 for 10-12 movements A DAY! It is narrow (3m), gravel, easily washboarded, and has soft shoulders which routinely swallow up rigs and points them to steep cliffs leading to the NS River and feeder creeks. I already take my life into my hands, and many of these drivers are beyond careless as they are pressured to make as many trips as they can. You see the plethora of poorly maintained units. They constantly blow through the stop signs. They play chicken with me as I drive the tractor between fields. There are 4 blind intersections they blow through. I've lost count on the number of reports and near death experiences. Last September and October, there was almost an accident a week on the highway leading out of the pits near my place - most of them having the trucks simply roll over on a clear day...distracted driving. So, I am actually scared for my life, and for those out here as well. It is only a matter of time before a major incident happens out this way. I know many here would cheer my death, but I kind of like living...

    This tragedy is horrid...and it needs to spark a larger conversation...so DON'T shut up bpeters. I know I won't...and I am sure that Leduc and Parkland County will be sick of hearing from me.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Ed you must have missed the recent news items showing what happened.

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    ...and many years ago I heard that a lot of rural residents routinely blow through stop signs. It may be a harness practice 99% of the time when visibility is a km in all directions but it’s a bad habit because stopping doesn’t become automatic.

    It’s also highly unlikely that anyone would purposely do so here because this was a highway crossing with a bind corner. That said, the erratic driver we reported one Sunday morning in rural Alberta was driving a big jacked up truck and not a mini-cooper or smart car.
    Last edited by KC; 12-04-2018 at 07:45 AM.

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    A few more comments. The Semi driver was travelling west. It was 5pm on what I read was a sunny day. The sun would likely be in his eyes from an angle and fairly low in the sky due to the time of year and time of day. Its the type of angle where if you even put the flap down the sun is in your eyes because its coming at an angle. I mention this because the sun makes the flashing lights less effective. Flashing lights are obvious in low light conditions, not as much in high light conditions. So that if the driver was distracted, looking at GPS (he was a new driver, probably not familiar with the route as it seems he didn't know this stop. ) so that a visual display alerting a driver of a stop is ineffective if one is not looking at it.

    For reasons like the above I always feel rumble strips are more effective. Its impossible not to notice those. They also work, and I hate to say this, for drivers that are very tired and maybe even slipping off momentarily. Rumble strips jar a driver. They're known to bring attention to an inattentive or nodding off or distracted driver. They are more effective because they are signals of a different modality, a physical modality that is felt, rather than just have the two visual modalities of flashing lights or a stop sign.

    I would rather have rumble strips and stop sign than Stop sign and flashing lights. Ideally all 3 but if you're picking too to effectively alert of a stop its the sign and the rumble strips.

    I will mention that long haul is a different kind of driving all together. These guys work long hours, high pressure, and are increasingly pressured to keep to timetables that are unrealistic and don't allow for rest. This driver is very new. I also wonder why such a rookie driver was operating a two trailer rig. Those generally require more expertise, experience, and on bigger trucking companies its usually the seasoned drivers getting those rigs. Two trailer rigs are of course much longer, don't handle the same, don't stop the same, and are more exhausting to drive. I've known truckers that were among the only ones in their company trusted with these bigger rigs. This is relevant in so many ways as the time to clear an intersection is of course much longer with a two trailer rig. For all we know the Truck driver had stopped and then proceeded. Or went to a rolling stop and proceeded. When you have two trailers behind you its harder for an inexperienced driver to know innately how much time and space clearance is required and especially at highway speeds. Driving one of these two trailer rigs would feel like driving a train without signals or ROW for those that are less experienced.

    ps I do realize the second trailer was a smaller unit and not full sized but still a longer rig than one trailer.
    Last edited by Replacement; 12-04-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Ed you must have missed the recent news items showing what happened.
    I heard on the Global News this morning that investigators are leaning towards the truck running through the stop sign; they also indicated that the sun may have played a factor into this.
    G
    I agree with that KC. The question is how do we remedy this situation? Im thinking that speed bumps on secondary roads leading up to the stop sign when it meets up with a major artery. Also, signs that indicate a reduction in speed should be a different color than white like how the school zones have recently been implemented. This wont guaranty wreckless drivers from obliging the law; but, if sun glare is a factor, this will help regular drivers anticipate what is to come which is a stop sign. I could totally see how the sun would/could blind you completely.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The question is how do we remedy this situation?
    In this case?
    1) Driver education on conditions (sun, fog, blizzard etc.). The sun's not going anywhere anytime soon and millions of motorists experience this 'factor' every year.
    2) Driver education on route. If unfamiliar to the route (There's been no indication this was his first time on this particular road. It might have been but no word yet. Regardless, the point still stands; know your route.)
    3) Driver education of your equipment. (Load capacity. Stopping distance and the variables pertaining to pulling a 'pup'., etc)
    4) Driver education on experience and history with a Class 1.
    5) If you have doubts about any one of the above. EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION.

    There's too much emphasis on what to do about the intersection and not enough emphasis on the driving habits and perhaps the highway hauling industry in general.
    Last edited by bpeters; 12-04-2018 at 09:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    There's too much emphasis on what to do about the intersection and not enough emphasis on the driving habits and perhaps the highway hauling industry in general.

    E.g. Trucking Co. owner, how do you hire a driver, said driver has a devastating event and you haven't even spoken or reached out to him yet?
    The owner did contact the driver immediately and even drove down to Saskatoon to pick him up and to obviously debrief and support him through the trauma.

    I do agree with everything else you stated.

    Driving habits in Saskatchewan are notably worse and the province chronically leads the nation in per capita driving fatalities.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    perhaps the highway hauling industry in general.

    (...)


    Agreed. Nearly everything in front of everyone right now...was at one time on a truck. This industry is crucial for our economy. Like other industries, it's beleaguered with rising costs, lower pay, and increased demands. It is a race to the bottom...driver fatigue is a huge issue...equipment fatigue is another.

    The industry needs an overhaul.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

  83. #83

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    ^Fair enough. I did read previously that the owner picked him up etc and then read that recent story that he "hadn't spoken to the driver about what happened" clearly indicating he hadn't discussed the event in particular. my bad. I'll edit the post.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

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    bpeters, those are really good points. In the trades- which i do part time- we have courses for H2S, fall arrest and so forth that has to be reimplimented every 3 years; we also have mandatory risk assessments that has to be done prior to work commencement. The risk assessment involves identifying potential hazards and ways of mitigating those potential hazards; it is actually a legal document that could be used against you in the court of law if you disobey your own assessment when involved in an accident. Perhaps this is something the trucking industry and government should implement as a law.

    One thing I have notice driving north on 63 is that some of these truckers drive quite dangerously, so I also wouldn't mind that they have mandatory speed limit for these haulers with GPS to track their speed.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    The risk assessment involves identifying potential hazards and ways of mitigating those potential hazards; it is actually a legal document that could be used against you in the court of law if you disobey your own assessment when involved in an accident. Perhaps this is something the trucking industry and government should implement as a law.

    One thing I have notice driving north on 63 is that some of these truckers drive quite dangerously, so I also wouldn't mind that they have mandatory speed limit for these haulers with GPS to track their speed.
    Interesting, the risk assessment thing. Your post and Richard's latest one do bring forth some real concerns for the industry. Not to take away any focus on this one driver and this incident but the mandatory speed thing has come up in the past combined with Richard's comments about rising costs, lower pay, and increased demands, driver fatigue etc. it appears to be a tough row for the trucking industry. I'd like to hear from them on some of this. Maybe a separate thread and topic?
    Highway transport is still the most cost effective way of moving goods in this country and with the arrival of Amazon type businesses and eBay etc, moving products by road locally is likely on the increase. An overhaul isn't meant as a threat. This is a vital industry and there should be protections and measures in place to ensure these people; drivers and Co.'s, can make a living and be profitable with safety at the forefront.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    There's too much emphasis on what to do about the intersection and not enough emphasis on the driving habits and perhaps the highway hauling industry in general.

    E.g. Trucking Co. owner, how do you hire a driver, said driver has a devastating event and you haven't even spoken or reached out to him yet?
    The owner did contact the driver immediately and even drove down to Saskatoon to pick him up and to obviously debrief and support him through the trauma.

    I do agree with everything else you stated.

    Driving habits in Saskatchewan are notably worse and the province chronically leads the nation in per capita driving fatalities.
    Seriously? Have you ever been on the 401, and in a semi!!!

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    It was 5pm on what I read was a sunny day. The sun would likely be in his eyes from an angle and fairly low in the sky due to the time of year
    The sun was not in his eyes, it was still high in the sky when parents and police arrived. When it gets in your eyes, is when it's on the horizon.

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    On the news this morning, there were talks of attaining a similiar or same model truck to do a trial run for that purpose and see if the sun had any factor. Regardless what the finding is, i pray that the suvivors will find a way to overcome this tragedy; and the young lad who is paralyzed will eventually walk again one day.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctzn-Ed View Post
    On the news this morning, there were talks of attaining a similiar or same model truck to do a trial run for that purpose and see if the sun had any factor. Regardless what the finding is, i pray that the suvivors will find a way to overcome this tragedy; and the young lad who is paralyzed will eventually walk again one day.
    He's ready to play sledge hockey, going for the hold! What a guy...

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    Truly...

    He is young and advancements has come a long ways since the day when my friend was used for trials of electric stimulant to manipulate movement in 1989. I honestly think he'll walk again one day. At least, i want to think so for him.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    There's too much emphasis on what to do about the intersection and not enough emphasis on the driving habits and perhaps the highway hauling industry in general.

    E.g. Trucking Co. owner, how do you hire a driver, said driver has a devastating event and you haven't even spoken or reached out to him yet?
    The owner did contact the driver immediately and even drove down to Saskatoon to pick him up and to obviously debrief and support him through the trauma.

    I do agree with everything else you stated.

    Driving habits in Saskatchewan are notably worse and the province chronically leads the nation in per capita driving fatalities.
    Per capita, small population, volatile statistics, large rural area, etc. There’s a number of factors to account for before labelling a population as bad drivers. First, if you have a large proportion of the population in the cities using mass transit or not achieving the speeds that kill (remember: speed kills) the “capita” population may not be comparable. The population subject to hitting animals or driving on unimproved road or roads that don’t get cleared of snow would also be a factor. Even the vehicles. For years pickups didn’t meet the basic safety standards applied to cars. (Rollover risk, weak roofs, horrible handling characteristics, etc.) there’s the type of population too. Saskatchewan has the First Nations spread about and they are notoriously underserved in many, many ways.

    Per capita urban accident comparisons might be easier to compare in ways where one could judge the quality of the training and adherence to training and other factors like impaired driving.

    Also this was a company out of Calgary, so the driver may have other experience.


    This was an interesting article:

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/...n-saskatchewan

    The most dangerous roads in Canada: Why it’s so deadly to drive in Saskatchewan
    Tristin Hopper
    April 10, 2018 7:55 PM EDT
    Last edited by KC; 12-04-2018 at 11:39 AM.

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    Yep, I read that article yesterday KC. But its far from the only source I've been looking at. Also as the article mentions only Yukon or PEI are sometimes worst in per capita driving fatalities and due to volatile stats as you mention. The thing is Saskatchewan is consistently high from year to year in the category.

    Another factor is that driving through Saskatchewan feels like an eternity. The flatlands really do a number on your concentration, awareness, and if any stretch of driving ever put anyone to sleep.. Drinking and driving for some reason seems much more acceptable still in Sask. Not sure why.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    It was 5pm on what I read was a sunny day. The sun would likely be in his eyes from an angle and fairly low in the sky due to the time of year
    The sun was not in his eyes, it was still high in the sky when parents and police arrived. When it gets in your eyes, is when it's on the horizon.
    Or when it reflects off the snow.

    Then there’s the crap people hang on their rear view mirrors* plus the screens they are now sticking on their windshields- I have a thread here on that peeve of mine . (Not likely an issue in a truck and definitely not an issue at highway speeds. More of a pedestrian and urban intersection risk.)


    Additionally, I have transition glasses. They can darken up considerably more in the winter than in the summer. The reflected light does it.



    * as an aside: I understand that the rules for having a handicap permits include taking them down when driving. Why such a rule?
    Anyway, many drivers obviously don’t care and they leave them up for their own convenience. Lots of other stuff blocking or interrupting clear lines of sight. Not a big deal in a truck but in some cars they hang down close to the dash.
    Last edited by KC; 12-04-2018 at 11:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    I don't think speculation on what happened is a negative thing. Its just conversation. The investigation will reveal what happened. But the discussion about "what should be there (for safety reasons)", "what other people have done regularly at this intersection (blow through) in the past", "if the trees obstructed the view" are butkus. This is about the here and now. What are the variables as they are today and up to today? What happened in this actual event and not in past events or how to prevent. Preventative measures can be addressed following the investigation findings. We don't need to address whether rumble strips or removal of trees could have prevented this event. They are not there.
    Example (not judgement), if semi driver was completely hammered and blasted through a stop sign no amount of 'tree clearing', or brighter light, or rumble strip was going to prevent it.
    I don't get your example at all. Or the rest of your post, frankly. I'm sure glad you're not involved in the investigation, because that's not how an investigation works. You don't ignore things until you can rule them out.

    Everything needs to be looked at.

    It happened before, at this intersection. They put in a light. People blow through it regularly, according to someone who lives there.

    Even assuming the driver was 100% at fault, and it was 100% driver error. We still need to examine whether it's a particularly dangerous intersection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    It was 5pm on what I read was a sunny day. The sun would likely be in his eyes from an angle and fairly low in the sky due to the time of year
    The sun was not in his eyes, it was still high in the sky when parents and police arrived. When it gets in your eyes, is when it's on the horizon.
    Or when it reflects off the snow.

    Then there’s the crap people hang on their rear view mirrors* plus the screens they are now sticking on their windshields- I have a thread here on that peeve of mine . (Not likely an issue in a truck and definitely not an issue at highway speeds. More of a pedestrian and urban intersection risk.)


    Additionally, I have transition glasses. They can darken up considerably more in the winter than in the summer. The reflected light does it.



    * as an aside: I understand that the rules for having a handicap permits include taking them down when driving. Why such a rule?
    Anyway, many drivers obviously don’t care and they leave them up for their own convenience. Lots of other stuff blocking or interrupting clear lines of sight. Not a big deal in a truck but in some cars they hang down close to the dash.
    I don't have crap hanging from my rear view mirror, you do realise a semi doesn't have one, right!

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    I think autonomous vehicles will cut down on a lot of these kinds of tragedies in the future. I hope they get it figured out. I'm not looking forward to putting drivers out of work, but it should save a lot of lives.
    aka Jim Good; "The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up." - Steven Wright

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I think autonomous vehicles will cut down on a lot of these kinds of tragedies in the future. I hope they get it figured out. I'm not looking forward to putting drivers out of work, but it should save a lot of lives.
    Providing they can see white, didn't such a vehicle hit a semi, because it didn't see it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bpeters View Post
    I don't think speculation on what happened is a negative thing. Its just conversation. The investigation will reveal what happened. But the discussion about "what should be there (for safety reasons)", "what other people have done regularly at this intersection (blow through) in the past", "if the trees obstructed the view" are butkus. This is about the here and now. What are the variables as they are today and up to today? What happened in this actual event and not in past events or how to prevent. Preventative measures can be addressed following the investigation findings. We don't need to address whether rumble strips or removal of trees could have prevented this event. They are not there.
    Example (not judgement), if semi driver was completely hammered and blasted through a stop sign no amount of 'tree clearing', or brighter light, or rumble strip was going to prevent it.
    I don't get your example at all. Or the rest of your post, frankly. I'm sure glad you're not involved in the investigation, because that's not how an investigation works. You don't ignore things until you can rule them out.

    Everything needs to be looked at.

    It happened before, at this intersection. They put in a light. People blow through it regularly, according to someone who lives there.

    Even assuming the driver was 100% at fault, and it was 100% driver error. We still need to examine whether it's a particularly dangerous intersection.
    The speed bumps seem like a good idea then. In this instance, it should straddle over both direction on each side of the stop sign
    That way, they can't steer over to one side and continue to cross without stopping.
    " The strength of a man is in the stride he walks."

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    You don't ignore things until you can rule them out.
    Everything needs to be looked at.
    You don't have to get it. I don't care. But I don't think I'm ignoring anything. Richard put it best in his post about the facts that are present and indisputable. As it relates to this event I don't believe you ADD variables that are not there now. What am I ignoring? "there are no rumble strips", "people plow through it regularly", "if the trees were cut back", etc. I believe all things that should to an future 'going forward' intersection examination.
    This driver has only been employed for two weeks and it's still unsure whether he'd ever driven this road so "people plow through it regularly" is irrelevant.
    The examination into the intersection is a different conversation and a different investigation. There many variables can come into that conversation.
    Btw, my points that you don't agree with are subject to this thread. I and I assume you do not have any idea what the investigation criteria into this event (I can't stress that part enough) entails.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

  100. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I think autonomous vehicles will cut down on a lot of these kinds of tragedies in the future. I hope they get it figured out. I'm not looking forward to putting drivers out of work, but it should save a lot of lives.
    Yeah, that's the solution (sarcasm). So instead of people taking responsibility we can fault software, code and mechanical failure.
    He who posteth too much, should moveth out of his parents basement and get a life.

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