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Thread: Famous Spanish street artist courted to paint Edmonton's biggest mural

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    Default Famous Spanish street artist courted to paint Edmonton's biggest mural

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...714025?cmp=rss

    If two Edmonton art lovers get their way, a homely brick facade near Whyte Avenue will become a blank canvas for renowned Spanish street artist Okuda San Miguel.

    Michael Maxxis and Fish Griwkowsky have launched a $40,000 crowdfunding campaign for a six-storey mural in Old Strathcona.

    If the project is successful, a currently neglected corner of the Crawford Block annex on Whyte Avenue and Gateway Boulevard would become the face of the neighbourhood, Maxxis said.

    At 1,400 sq. feet, it would be the biggest mural in the city.

    "Big pieces of art like this inspire people," Maxxis said in an interview with CBC Radio's Edmonton AM. "I think it will have a big impact."
    GoFundMe page is here:
    https://www.gofundme.com/imagineokud...GqTj72tBPVcjOK
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    The same Fish Grikowsky who bemoans the lack of support for *local* artists?

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    I am sure that there are local artists that can do the job. Support local artists

    My sister was commissioned decades ago to do the mural on the walls behind the old downtown City Market on 97th street. 53°32'38.43" N 113°29'06.82" W
    She had so little funding that she made less than minimum wage and had to use the donated paint colors. No big budget Spanish artist salary
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    Instead of praise for such an initiative - they get immediate criticism.

    If they took the initiative to start this project shouldn’t they get to pursue it without such “buy local” interference? Is there another reason why this type of artwork hasn’t already been created on this spot or some other similar spot by local artists?

    In an interview on CBC radio yesterday one of the guys behind this said something to the effect that: “if we expect Edmonton artists should be able to show the world their talents, should other artists be able to do that here...” (it was actually said far better than I can do it justice now.)

    You could compare this to famous architects. Had Frank Lloyd Wright built a noteworthy structure in Edmonton it would likely still be putting us ‘on the map’ decades later as such famous design is widely valued. So, as this artist is world famous it would potentially be a big lasting benefit to Edmonton with a relatively minor outlay of funds.



    Found the interview. It was very interesting!


    CBC Listen | Edmonton AM | A new mural for Old Strathcona

    A new mural for Old Strathcona. Jun 20, 2018

    Two Edmontonians want your help funding a six-storey mural in Old Strathcona.

    http://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/edmon...gment/15551754


    “Should Edmonton artists be allowed to make art somewhere else?”
    Last edited by KC; 21-06-2018 at 09:42 AM.

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    Would you say the same if they hired American mural artist Scott LoBaido?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Would you say the same if they hired American mural artist Scott LoBaido?
    If it was their project, their initiative, and donors knew what they were getting then why not. If it potentially challenges community standards, there are likely bylaws and other City powers to deal with unusual murals.

    However, it’s always nice when locals get hired and I usually think we’ve either got the local skills and talent or could develop it locally. Nonetheless, in all fields, in art, in science, in medicine, in research, there are people that somehow outshine most others and so we are usually thrilled if not honoured to have them come to our city to work.

    We have local architects yet haven’t we gone outside the city to get buildings etc designed? We then get to benefit from their talent long after they are gone.


    Eg
    The Blatchford development - Perkins + Will and CIVITAS - local designers? No. They were from Vancouver
    Last edited by KC; 21-06-2018 at 10:01 AM.

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    I based my comment after having encountered numerous other instances of Fish bemoaning the lack of support for local talent. I also listened to the interview, and the rationale was presented breezily enough. But I get it, it’s his joint, he likes the artist and ...yeah. It’s not a problem, this time.
    Last edited by Dialog; 21-06-2018 at 11:53 AM. Reason: Duplicate word

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    Never heard of this artist before the mural was announced, but after seeing his art I'm excited for it on the building. I also really like the mural that was done on the Varscona theater. I was also annoyed that the hand on Track & Trail was vandalized, then painted over (the bottom, only). We have some really cool murals in Edmonton, but I think this has the opportunity to be one of the most-seen. I have no problem that he's from Spain and not Edmonton.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Would you say the same if they hired American mural artist Scott LoBaido?
    If it was their project, their initiative, and donors knew what they were getting then why not. If it potentially challenges community standards, there are likely bylaws and other City powers to deal with unusual murals.

    However, it’s always nice when locals get hired and I usually think we’ve either got the local skills and talent or could develop it locally. Nonetheless, in all fields, in art, in science, in medicine, in research, there are people that somehow outshine most others and so we are usually thrilled if not honoured to have them come to our city to work.

    We have local architects yet haven’t we gone outside the city to get buildings etc designed? We then get to benefit from their talent long after they are gone.


    Eg
    The Blatchford development - Perkins + Will and CIVITAS - local designers? No. They were from Vancouver
    i'm not sure blatchford is the example you want to use here...

    that was an international design competition and the winner was selected from a short-list of three based on the quality of the submission, not the postal code of the designer. it's also worth noting that there was always "local" talent on the team. it's also worth noting that perkins + wills has not been involved with the project for some time and that many of the changes to the design and the direction were - for better or worse - made by local talent.

    in terms of the competition (and to the same degree in the selection of consultants generally) it's no different than edmonton firms bidding successfully on work outside of edmonton - the doors have to open in both directions and the resultant raising of the bar should be good for everyone.

    while you are correct in your comment that "it's always nice when locals get hired", when they are it should be based on their skills and their talent, not their postal code. we have a large and deep talent pool here but that doesn't mean they should be entitled to all the work there is here any more than they should be precluded from successfully exercising their skills and their talent in vancouver or toronto or long beach or mumbai...
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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Awesome. I contributed a bit of money towards it, and it's great to know that the excess money will be going to Rust Magic, a street art festival in the city.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Progress thus far

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Thanks for posting the photo, SDM!
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Progress today. It's likely going to be finished tonight. https://www.instagram.com/p/BlTuaNKD...agged=okudayeg
    Unveiling party is this Saturday https://www.facebook.com/events/449081012224763/



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    Wow! Looks great!
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

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    Does look great, we are getting a really nice collection of these murals, adds a lot to the neighbourhoods.

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    I can't believe how quickly that went up.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Came up on twitter but wiped out from feed upon next try

    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Beautiful but blatantly sexist... LOL
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    Looks boss. Great to see in Edmonton!
    You never see a cartoon coyote wear a swimsuit before?

    Wouldn't mind something this size on the back of the Strathcona Professional building behind the Commercial Hotel.
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    100 grand for a dog with tits...
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    100 grand for a dog with tits...
    I can speak from experience that ‘boring’, ‘dutiful’, ‘conventional’ didn’t make me rich. For not much money, this guy is leaving us here in Edmonton something that is very different, bright and fun and obviously controversial, plus it may pay off in unexpectedly wonderful ways.

    I’m also glad the guy and his team came here when we had nice weather. That may gain us some tourism brownie points if they are travelling the world and hopefully talking about us.



    We got art that we’ll be keeping and we certainly won’t be washing it down the drain tonight. Now this below is a case of people everywhere (God knows why) shipping out their hard earned income and getting little of lasting value back:


    Self-made billionaire or not, Kylie Jenner really is an economic phenomenon | The Independent

    I admit I was sceptical. Yet the consensus of financial analysts I consulted is that, assuming the $330m a year sales figure for Kylie Cosmetics is accurate, it’s not unreasonable to value the brand at around $800m.

    Mature companies are generally valued on a multiple of profits, rather than turnover. But for fast-growing, young companies (and Kylie Cosmetics was only established two years ago) it’s normal for top-line sales to be used.

    ...
    Sports stars receive vast amounts of money in sponsorship deals, earning far more from image rights than salaries or tournament fees. And one can now become a dollar billionaire in two years from selling makeup on the back of being “famous for being famous”.

    The economics makes sense. What such trends say about the state of our society is, of course, another matter.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8447636.html
    Last edited by KC; 17-07-2018 at 07:03 PM.

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    There's been some interesting discussions around whether this piece "crosses a line or not".

    Which begs the question, “Are there certain lines not meant to be crossed by artists?” Absolutelynot... maybe... sometimes..,

    I would be surprised if you asked that question ofany artist regarding their work and the answer was anything but "no, absolutelynot". I would be surprised if you askedthat of any person regarding the art in their living room or their bedroom andthe answer was anything but "yes, absolutely and I know exactly where it is(even if it’s not the same line for both spaces)".

    So outside of one’s own personal space, ifthere is going to be a line, who gets to draw it? The artist? The owner of the space? The userof that particular room/space? Theperson purchasing the art? Those who aregoing to view it by choice? Those whocan’t help but view it? Art, and ourperception of art, is a very personal thing and it’s a personal thing that is virtuallyguaranteed not to be consistent in its forms or our reactions to it or its placeor time. The only thing I think I’m sureof is there may not be any single right or wrong answer to the question and theonly arbiter we should be able to impose is appropriateness of location, notappropriateness of the art itself.

    Bythat, I mean that in a gallery both the artist and the viewer have a choice asto whether to be there or not and can make that choice prior to the encounter. The lines might be different than those usedto select public art for a neighborhood rec centre or school than for auniversity or museum. The lines might bedifferent for someone’s bedroom or living room and their front yard. Is there “a line” that this piece crossed andshouldn’t have given all of the above? Idon’t know.

    I also don’t know if I’m theperson that should be drawing that line or even if I know who should be drawingit if not me. I also don’t know if thoseinsisting that they be the arbiter are really any more qualified than I am todecide for everyone else but in my experience personal experience might be oneof the things a good arbiter needs to set aside, just as a good arbiter needsto be able to differentiate between the artist and the art. Should Richard Wagner’s anti-semitism abolishany performance of his operas? Was theportrait of Adele Block-Bauer less beautiful those years it was stolen?. Did Jerry Lee Lewis’ marriage choicesinvalidate his music as suitable to listen to? Don’t ask me – I’m much better at posing than answering.
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    I was just pulling the politically correct chain.

    I like the mural.

    If you go to Europe thee are a lot of bare breasts and full frontal nudity even on the Sistine Chapel.

    People srd do uptight these days.
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    It's neat that it's tall enough to become part of the south-side skyline. A bonus that it faces north so will get less sun-baked. What's the maintenance deal on a mural like this?
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    A women that looks like a dog? In Edmonton? Never. It’s kind of weird. At least Gateway is one way and nobody will see it unless they happen to look in their mirror just then and maybe see it. I would prefer a regular picture or scene but it is colourful.
    Last edited by Drumbones; 17-07-2018 at 08:50 PM.

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    If this "crosses the line" Edmonton is in trouble.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    100 grand for a dog with tits...
    LOL! pretty much..

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    In terms of actual critique the mural is not quite up to par with some of thos artists other work. While trapezoidal fill in the colors work is his signature some of his other works have involved more actual free form accompaniment which improves imo the finished look. For instance one of his art works shown above in the thread has more of that balance. This one is almost all standard filled in triangles that compose the larger work. he didn't have to free hand spray paint as much with this work. In that sense I kind of see it as more of his formula, and less of his art. We got a little shortchanged.

    That said I'm not a fan of his work. I far prefer spray paint artists that free form paint their work rather than this geometric type design.


    There have imo been better tag artists here that are considered vandals and have had their works whitewashed countless times. Which raises the interesting point as always that what constitutes artists vs purveyors of graffiti. I mean other than permission granted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I was just pulling the politically correct chain.

    I like the mural.

    If you go to Europe thee are a lot of bare breasts and full frontal nudity even on the Sistine Chapel.

    People srd do uptight these days.
    As long as you're perfectly comfortable with the next 100ft high artwork featuring a large 50 foot surreal erect banana and two scoops of ice cream, one on either side..

    i'm jk around. But male objectification will probably be demanded in reply. I could see that happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    100 grand for a dog with tits...
    It just screams Edmonton's vision. LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    100 grand for a dog with tits...
    Um, problem? I love it as is, and come winter and those gloomy, dark days, will love it even more.

    Only problem as I see it, and it's not avoidable .... is drivers rubbernecking as they continue north on Gateway.

    Well, the rubbernecking is totally avoidable, but would have been nice had there been a good south facing wall (not 1/2 blocked by the Strath!)
    ... gobsmacked

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    Wow. Some of these comments.
    Let me provide some perspective since I was closely involved with this project and met the artist and team behind it. Here are some facts:
    1. This project was entirely fundraised by a local business owner who has incredible vision and making an impact in this city and Old Strathcona. He did all the work himself with a few others to bring an international artist to our city.
    2. Art is symbolic and a representation. It's not literal. I spoke with Okuda about his vision for this mural and he commented that he mixes animals and humans in his work, as he thinks we are losing the connection between animals and humans. He mentioned that indigenous cultures celebrate this and the animal spirits. Also, he wanted to acknowledge the power of the woman, so made it female. He also wanted to show the vibrant wildlife, trees and mountains we have in Alberta (likely a nod to our provincial parks).
    3. This mural is putting Edmonton on the map for public art and will attract more artists to our city. It's also putting two local street artists from Fresh Canvas/Rust Magic on the map, as they partnered on it.
    4. This is the start of a greater revitalization of our alleys in Old Strathcona.

    We should be embracing big, bold vision from local entrepreneurs, artists and the community, not criticizing it.

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    Does anyone remember the little shop in the alley, about half-way down, that kinda/sorta supplied spray artists with tips for their spray cans? Mark at Vivid Print talked about it being problematic when he was on the avenue and I only stopped by once. A real "hole-in-the-wall", more like a walled-off rear entrance.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  36. #36

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    I absolutely love this mural and hope it attracts more artists like Okuda. How anyone can interpret this as being sexist is beyond me, but then art is subjective I guess. A big thank you to all who put their time and efforts (or money) into making this a reality. Beautiful work.
    "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" - Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherklass View Post
    Wow. Some of these comments.
    Let me provide some perspective since I was closely involved with this project and met the artist and team behind it. Here are some facts:
    1. This project was entirely fundraised by a local business owner who has incredible vision and making an impact in this city and Old Strathcona. He did all the work himself with a few others to bring an international artist to our city.
    2. Art is symbolic and a representation. It's not literal. I spoke with Okuda about his vision for this mural and he commented that he mixes animals and humans in his work, as he thinks we are losing the connection between animals and humans. He mentioned that indigenous cultures celebrate this and the animal spirits. Also, he wanted to acknowledge the power of the woman, so made it female. He also wanted to show the vibrant wildlife, trees and mountains we have in Alberta (likely a nod to our provincial parks).
    3. This mural is putting Edmonton on the map for public art and will attract more artists to our city. It's also putting two local street artists from Fresh Canvas/Rust Magic on the map, as they partnered on it.
    4. This is the start of a greater revitalization of our alleys in Old Strathcona.

    We should be embracing big, bold vision from local entrepreneurs, artists and the community, not criticizing it.
    Goodness, I embrace lots of art, and other things, why must I embrace this? we all have individual taste

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    This is a nice addition to Strathcona.
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    Like it or not... it’s kind of a done deal....

    lol

    IDK if it’s cause I’m gay but I don’t seee the big deal about a bunch of Triangles arranged to form two circles... they are boobs. I have seen my niece suck on one more times than I care to count. They hold no magic.

    Too many men on this board and not enough women. I’m sure if there were they would tell us to grow up and get with the times.
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    Agreed. And it appears I'm the only woman on this board providing a female perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Like it or not... it’s kind of a done deal....

    lol

    IDK if it’s cause I’m gay but I don’t seee the big deal about a bunch of Triangles arranged to form two circles... they are boobs. I have seen my niece suck on one more times than I care to count. They hold no magic.

    Too many men on this board and not enough women. I’m sure if there were they would tell us to grow up and get with the times.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherklass View Post
    Agreed. And it appears I'm the only woman on this board providing a female perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Like it or not... it’s kind of a done deal....

    lol

    IDK if it’s cause I’m gay but I don’t seee the big deal about a bunch of Triangles arranged to form two circles... they are boobs. I have seen my niece suck on one more times than I care to count. They hold no magic.

    Too many men on this board and not enough women. I’m sure if there were they would tell us to grow up and get with the times.
    Why would you say that?

    Also I imagine your perspective isn’t just limited to your female’ness. With everyone, the other aspects of our lives invariably affect our perspective(s) so I think it’s hard to provide any purely male or female perspectives that aren’t heavily influenced by one’s other background influences.

    On the whole issue, it’s art and it’s public. Paint a big exterior wall and that guarantees a full sprectum of opinions being voiced about it. I think that’s generally good.
    Last edited by KC; 19-07-2018 at 11:02 AM.

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Like it or not... it’s kind of a done deal....

    lol

    IDK if it’s cause I’m gay but I don’t seee the big deal about a bunch of Triangles arranged to form two circles... they are boobs. I have seen my niece suck on one more times than I care to count. They hold no magic.

    Too many men on this board and not enough women. I’m sure if there were they would tell us to grow up and get with the times.
    I don't see one post that is offended by the depiction of "boobs".

    So that you just constructed another strawman argument. Which I recall you were known for your last time here.


    Most of the response here and elsewhere is why work like this couldn't go to local artists and celebrate their talents.

    Also lets not suggest that puritan attitudes towards sexuality is found only here. This week a model in a fashion show bared her breast and fed her baby while on the catwalk. People treated it as if it was a momentous occasion when it should be normal. The model herself didn't think it should be a big deal. I don't either.

    The oddest thing is we've gone BACKWARDS in society on matters of what we can decide to wear or not wear. Things were more advanced on this in the 60's. A couple years ago a woman was kicked out of a Recreation Center in Edmonton because she was working out in a tanktop.

    We have a lot of work to do in society to stop being so hung up and or having policy that is.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-07-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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    I don't remember this place. But now I want to ask Mark about this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Does anyone remember the little shop in the alley, about half-way down, that kinda/sorta supplied spray artists with tips for their spray cans? Mark at Vivid Print talked about it being problematic when he was on the avenue and I only stopped by once. A real "hole-in-the-wall", more like a walled-off rear entrance.

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    Private money, private property, not offensive.
    Colourful and unique.

    I like it, don't see any problem with it.
    I find the generic murals of kids playing or old timey street scapes, etc boring and forgettable.

    This is far more interesting.

    As a photographer, it would make a cool backdrop for a photo shoot.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherklass View Post
    Wow. Some of these comments.
    Let me provide some perspective since I was closely involved with this project and met the artist and team behind it. Here are some facts:
    1. This project was entirely fundraised by a local business owner who has incredible vision and making an impact in this city and Old Strathcona. He did all the work himself with a few others to bring an international artist to our city.
    2. Art is symbolic and a representation. It's not literal. I spoke with Okuda about his vision for this mural and he commented that he mixes animals and humans in his work, as he thinks we are losing the connection between animals and humans. He mentioned that indigenous cultures celebrate this and the animal spirits. Also, he wanted to acknowledge the power of the woman, so made it female. He also wanted to show the vibrant wildlife, trees and mountains we have in Alberta (likely a nod to our provincial parks).
    3. This mural is putting Edmonton on the map for public art and will attract more artists to our city. It's also putting two local street artists from Fresh Canvas/Rust Magic on the map, as they partnered on it.
    4. This is the start of a greater revitalization of our alleys in Old Strathcona.

    We should be embracing big, bold vision from local entrepreneurs, artists and the community, not criticizing it.
    Why would you start off any comment on a discussion board with "Wow, some of these comments"?

    Because that's really the last thing you should want to do if you want to increase support of this art work or to objectively inform on it. Its natural reaction in people, and online to react defensively when a statement is purposely dismissive from the start. The unfortunate thing is the body of your post is fine, and welcome. Your preamble isn't. The reader is left with the impression that you disregard others comments because you were involved in this project. The tone established in your first line comes off that others shouldn't comment on the artwork or they will be chastised for it.

    But this is surrealist depiction. As with any such art its perceptual. The art is a viewed experience. It works for people or it doesn't. I think the location for this is good, Old Strathcona, arts and festivals, it will fit in, it adds to a vibe and community feel and overall contributes something. I also think the vibrant colors will be helpful in our drab winters. So that it is welcome, just that I feel it could be a better art work. Which is as a reasonable opinion to have. We can like art, not everybody has to like every art work.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-07-2018 at 11:15 AM.
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  46. #46

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    I’m concerned about the depiction here of a desolate mountainscape. Not even a tree line and no leaves on the trees. Why! What are people going to think!

  47. #47

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    Anyway.... wouldn’t it be nice if even just a quarter of our city’s big bland and drab windowless walls had art if all sorts created on them.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Anyway.... wouldn’t it be nice if even just a quarter of our city’s big bland and drab windowless walls had art if all sorts created on them.
    Maybe the Icons are next...

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I’m concerned about the depiction here of a desolate mountainscape. Not even a tree line and no leaves on the trees. Why! What are people going to think!
    Pine beetles, deforestation, clear cutting? Denuded forests?
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherklass View Post
    Agreed. And it appears I'm the only woman on this board providing a female perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Like it or not... it’s kind of a done deal....

    lol

    IDK if it’s cause I’m gay but I don’t seee the big deal about a bunch of Triangles arranged to form two circles... they are boobs. I have seen my niece suck on one more times than I care to count. They hold no magic.

    Too many men on this board and not enough women. I’m sure if there were they would tell us to grow up and get with the times.
    Why would you say that?

    Also I imagine your perspective isn’t just limited to your female’ness. With everyone, the other aspects of our lives invariably affect our perspective(s) so I think it’s hard to provide any purely male or female perspectives that aren’t heavily influenced by one’s other background influences.

    On the whole issue, it’s art and it’s public. Paint a big exterior wall and that guarantees a full sprectum of opinions being voiced about it. I think that’s generally good.
    The ironic thing in those two posts is that they are both arguably sexist, without realizing it. They infer that reactions to this art are sex identity based rather than just being reactions to the art. Why is our gender association inferred to be the determining factor in how we perceive the artwork?

    PS once again, so that comments are not whitewashed (excuse pun) I prefer the artwork to a mere painted wall. Could use more of this.

    Also if people could tag all the bland preclad monotone vinyl siding houses in my neighborhood....

    jk with the latter but why is it that we so accept bland monotone exteriors and in essence ugly built neighborhoods of big box bland houses.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  51. #51

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    Wouldn't mind this on one of the Icon Towers. Simple and bold, and can be easily seen clearly from a distance and not too jumbled and complicated.

    The backside of the Fusion Condos on 102 St could use a mural.
    Live and love... your neighbourhood.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I’m concerned about the depiction here of a desolate mountainscape. Not even a tree line and no leaves on the trees. Why! What are people going to think!
    Pine beetles, deforestation, clear cutting? Denuded forests?
    Nude forests???!!!

    Think of the children!

    Everyone shield their eyes...
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  53. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cherklass View Post
    Agreed. And it appears I'm the only woman on this board providing a female perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    Like it or not... it’s kind of a done deal....

    lol

    IDK if it’s cause I’m gay but I don’t seee the big deal about a bunch of Triangles arranged to form two circles... they are boobs. I have seen my niece suck on one more times than I care to count. They hold no magic.

    Too many men on this board and not enough women. I’m sure if there were they would tell us to grow up and get with the times.
    Why would you say that?

    Also I imagine your perspective isn’t just limited to your female’ness. With everyone, the other aspects of our lives invariably affect our perspective(s) so I think it’s hard to provide any purely male or female perspectives that aren’t heavily influenced by one’s other background influences.

    On the whole issue, it’s art and it’s public. Paint a big exterior wall and that guarantees a full sprectum of opinions being voiced about it. I think that’s generally good.
    The ironic thing in those two posts is that they are both arguably sexist, without realizing it. They infer that reactions to this art are sex identity based rather than just being reactions to the art. Why is our gender association inferred to be the determining factor in how we perceive the artwork?

    PS once again, so that comments are not whitewashed (excuse pun) I prefer the artwork to a mere painted wall. Could use more of this.

    Also if people could tag all the bland preclad monotone vinyl siding houses in my neighborhood....

    jk with the latter but why is it that we so accept bland monotone exteriors and in essence ugly built neighborhoods of big box bland houses.
    People should be asking why that animal has mountain peaks...


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  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    I’m concerned about the depiction here of a desolate mountainscape. Not even a tree line and no leaves on the trees. Why! What are people going to think!
    Pine beetles, deforestation, clear cutting? Denuded forests?
    Nude forests???!!!

    Think of the children!

    Everyone shield their eyes...
    No self respecting local artist would have dared to leave off the leafy dressing. We have community standards here!


    And I still don’t get the two sumo-wrestlers...
    Last edited by KC; 19-07-2018 at 12:17 PM.

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    I think some of thes people who complain about this need to get lives.
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  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat View Post
    I think some of thes people who complain about this need to get lives.
    Complaining can be an art form. Or just plain old graffiti.


    “I personally believe we developed language because of our deep inner need to complain.”
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    I don't understand the "why couldn't this go to a local artist" argument. We have literally dozens of locally sourced murals in this city. This time someone took the initiative, didn't ask the city for money, and followed through by securing a world renowned artist to paint something on their own highly visible wall, and we're really going to complain that it wasn't done by an artist from Abbotsfield?

    If there was a local artist who was well known for pushing the envelope, wouldn't you want them to be in demand around the world? We'd be jumping for joy on this board if a well-known local was handpicked to create a mural in...I dunno...lets say Copenhagen. When you have a chance to get someone who is at the top of their game, you take it. You don't water down your vision in order to appease the contingent of never happy people or so you don't offend the local art scene. A high tide raises all ships. This mural raises Edmonton's profile in circles that care about such things. Edmonton's artists and scene benefit from it being here overall.

  58. #58

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    ^You have it *** backwards Alex. This foreign artist would be famous in the first place due to being hired for local projects and municipalities in spain and local investors having the faith to pay him to do murals to start his career. Without which he's still an unknown.

    That essentially is WHY you support local artists. But we have this thing in Canada that says no matter how good Canadians are we should go international to find XYZ. Its really like a national plague that we do that so much. Canada must hire foreign, buy foreign, per capita, more than any country on earth. Canadians don't essentially obtain fame until they attain it somewhere else. Then its an almost awkward, "oh, but they are Canadian"

    No other country I know of is so ready to throw its money outside the country regardless of endeavor. Its a large part of what holds us back.

    Buy Canadian, hire Canadian. We need more, not less of that thinking in this Country.

    Especially given who our Neighbor is down south.
    Last edited by Replacement; 19-07-2018 at 11:22 PM.
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    You should only consume TV made in Edmonton. Only watch movies filmed in Edmonton. Oh, only with local actors.

    Also only drive vehicles made in Edmonton.

    Oh, and since I'm not currently in Edmonton, please don't read this. It wasn't created there.

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    1 mural by a famous artist not from Canada (or Edmonton specifically, because you know we'd be having a very similar discussion if an artists was brought in from Montreal) does not negate the hundreds of pieces of art created by local artists that already exist in our city. Yesterday after I wrote the above post I logged onto twitter where I saw Jason Blower creating a mural in a local library, and another local artist whose name escapes me doing the outline on their own mural somewhere in town.

    Art is everywhere and we need to expose ourselves to as many different perspectives as possible or we risk becoming stale. Not only that, but with all the media attention and buzz surrounding this particular piece I believe it will inspire more local artists to leave their comfort zones and push boundaries, or inspire non-artists to become artists. This is a net benefit.

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    You should only consume TV made in Edmonton. Only watch movies filmed in Edmonton. Oh, only with local actors.

    Also only drive vehicles made in Edmonton.

    Oh, and since I'm not currently in Edmonton, please don't read this. It wasn't created there.

    I said Canada and don't comprehend how people don't understand the concern. But your attitude is typical of what is wrong with this country and for instance Quebec preferring to buy Middle East Oil instead of Alberta Oil and not thinking that's any big deal.

    ftr I walk the walk as well. Travel only within Canada,(very rarely outside of it) buy Canadian as much as possible, NEVER cross border shop (refuse to) I like and support Canadian programming, Canadian art, literature, and work for Canadian only firms.

    Economically speaking we need to be MORE loyal in our consumption. To not do so stymies the Canadian economy at untold cost. With US trade posturing this will be more of an issue in a short period of time. Its interesting that USA first concept is so established there but not in Canada. Perhaps unfortunately our cross border relations with a highly protectionist Country will require us to change. Inevitably.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    1 mural by a famous artist not from Canada (or Edmonton specifically, because you know we'd be having a very similar discussion if an artists was brought in from Montreal) does not negate the hundreds of pieces of art created by local artists that already exist in our city. Yesterday after I wrote the above post I logged onto twitter where I saw Jason Blower creating a mural in a local library, and another local artist whose name escapes me doing the outline on their own mural somewhere in town.

    Art is everywhere and we need to expose ourselves to as many different perspectives as possible or we risk becoming stale. Not only that, but with all the media attention and buzz surrounding this particular piece I believe it will inspire more local artists to leave their comfort zones and push boundaries, or inspire non-artists to become artists. This is a net benefit.
    Canada has no end supply of talented artists. Many of whom would like more work. The Canadian art heritage is fabulous as is the vibrancy in which people take up the arts here. However what is lacking in this market is the economy of scale to support the arts here to the degree that they are optimally supported and so that countless galleries have backloads of unsold works of the highest quality. Artists not getting paid and churning out work until inevitably they find something else to do. Countless times I've enquired about favorite Artists only to find that they are no longer making art because it wasn't viable, or even that they became despondent, ore even addicted. Brilliant artists not supported and who get lost forever.

    We're really good in this country at CREATING artistic endeavor. Per capita we are a hotbed of Artistic influence. We're far less good at supporting that Canadian art industry.


    Just recently 3 souvenir/gallery stores in Vancouver were confronted by First Nations for having majority of their stock being appropriated Chinese renditions. Basically cheap souvenirs posing as First Nations art and increasingly selling Chinese junk instead of First Nations Art. Theres few other countries on Earth where people wouldn't be appalled at what is going on. This debate is FINALLY occurring in Canada. Its a start.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2018 at 09:39 AM.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    You should only consume TV made in Edmonton. Only watch movies filmed in Edmonton. Oh, only with local actors.

    Also only drive vehicles made in Edmonton.

    Oh, and since I'm not currently in Edmonton, please don't read this. It wasn't created there.

    I said Canada and don't comprehend how people don't understand the concern. But your attitude is typical of what is wrong with this country and for instance Quebec preferring to buy Middle East Oil instead of Alberta Oil and not thinking that's any big deal.

    ftr I walk the walk as well. Travel only within Canada,(very rarely outside of it) buy Canadian as much as possible, NEVER cross border shop (refuse to) I like and support Canadian programming, Canadian art, literature, and work for Canadian only firms.

    Economically speaking we need to be MORE loyal in our consumption. To not do so stymies the Canadian economy at untold cost. With US trade posturing this will be more of an issue in a short period of time. Its interesting that USA first concept is so established there but not in Canada. Perhaps unfortunately our cross border relations with a highly protectionist Country will require us to change. Inevitably.
    Yeah I'm not sure nationalism is the solution, sounds a lot like "Make Canada Great Again".

    But why have you chosen Canada as your particular border to represent where things should come from? Why not Alberta? Why not the Capital Region? Why not Edmonton? Maybe this artist should have come from the Old Strathcona area only?

  64. #64
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    Replacement is doing what he always does.
    1) Determine what the majority thinks
    2) Try to find some kind of argument against it
    3) Write long posts defending it only for the reason of being argumentative.

    I'm sure he's realized how much time he's wasted writing things out that people only skim over.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    You should only consume TV made in Edmonton. Only watch movies filmed in Edmonton. Oh, only with local actors.

    Also only drive vehicles made in Edmonton.

    Oh, and since I'm not currently in Edmonton, please don't read this. It wasn't created there.

    I said Canada and don't comprehend how people don't understand the concern. But your attitude is typical of what is wrong with this country and for instance Quebec preferring to buy Middle East Oil instead of Alberta Oil and not thinking that's any big deal.

    ftr I walk the walk as well. Travel only within Canada,(very rarely outside of it) buy Canadian as much as possible, NEVER cross border shop (refuse to) I like and support Canadian programming, Canadian art, literature, and work for Canadian only firms.

    Economically speaking we need to be MORE loyal in our consumption. To not do so stymies the Canadian economy at untold cost. With US trade posturing this will be more of an issue in a short period of time. Its interesting that USA first concept is so established there but not in Canada. Perhaps unfortunately our cross border relations with a highly protectionist Country will require us to change. Inevitably.
    Yeah I'm not sure nationalism is the solution, sounds a lot like "Make Canada Great Again".

    But why have you chosen Canada as your particular border to represent where things should come from? Why not Alberta? Why not the Capital Region? Why not Edmonton? Maybe this artist should have come from the Old Strathcona area only?
    A better question, and thanks for actually engaging discussion this time. We are a Nation. As frustrating as it is at times we are tied in confederation. I do support Alberta more in travels, in where I consume etc. I do like buying local, eating local. Support local farmers etc. 100 mile diet, yeah, kind of. heh, much of what I eat is the 100ft diet contained in my great garden. (With Canadian seeds or seeds I perpetuate myself) As to National, Provincial, Civic support all these are valid. My patterns of consumption involve all these.

    I don't get your concern with buy Canadian National support. I do think maybe the Trumped version or past Fascist versions have given National focused identity a bad name. Economically speaking it is undeniably better to buy Canadian, to support Canadian. From a pragmatic pov we should, even if can be inconvenient, or initially costly. In the end we probably can't afford not to. People talk all day here and elsewhere about diversification of local or provincial or national economies but are consumers here prepared to support that.

    I should mention that for those older they would remember that "Buy Canadian" was a massive national advertised campaign and impetus that was critical, and yet fizzled out. So that I'm old enough to remember that and indeed it was formative, at least for me.

    In Canada, already adversely impacted by geography and reduced economy of scale it is CRITICAL that we learn to consume more within our boundaries. But all too often people are not even aware of the impacts of not doing so. ftr I've been like this since a child. Favorite Authors are Canadian, I was watching Canadian movies and listening to Canadian music before it was an in thing. To me Canada is where its at, where the heart is and embracing more of Canadian heritage and history just makes me feel more at home. We're a potentially great Nation and its not a bad thing to embrace that. With our economy we don't have much choice to not become more protectionist. In time it will be required.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2018 at 10:07 AM.
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  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Replacement is doing what he always does.
    1) Determine what the majority thinks
    2) Try to find some kind of argument against it
    3) Write long posts defending it only for the reason of being argumentative.

    I'm sure he's realized how much time he's wasted writing things out that people only skim over.
    I prefer discussion vs judging others based on what they state online. Do you have anything to add other than dismissive asides?
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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    It's art, not a trade discussion.

    Want to support local artists? Raise $60k and pay a local artist to paint a mural on your house. Go to galleries, consume local arts, etc. Not everybody wants that no matter how hard you beat the "buy local only" drum. All you're doing by narrowing your vision is limiting your own view, which again you are free to do. Just don't go around trying to strap blinders to everyone else, too.

  68. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    It's art, not a trade discussion.

    Want to support local artists? Raise $60k and pay a local artist to paint a mural on your house. Go to galleries, consume local arts, etc. Not everybody wants that no matter how hard you beat the "buy local only" drum. All you're doing by narrowing your vision is limiting your own view, which again you are free to do. Just don't go around trying to strap blinders to everyone else, too.
    The only part of your post that I see as accurate is that this is an Art thread. this buy Canadian art economic sidebar could be the topic of another thread.

    But how am I "limiting my view and putting blinders on everyone"

    I can't even fathom that being your take from this.

    Again, the missive "Buy Canadian" was on every channel, printed in every paper, on advertisements every hour, in the 70's. It was the right message. It wasn't my message. It was from a time and place where the Canadian govt and economy realized it was crucial due to our limited market to focus our consumption to support the economy, further to diversification and economic expansion of the Canadian economy.

    If you don't comprehend that you have the blinders on. You might be oblivious to why you should support the Canadian economy. You hopefully won't be your whole life.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2018 at 11:37 AM.
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    https://twitter.com/yegfoodbank/stat...64704595181570

    Oh look, 2 more murals done by Edmontonians this year. Not just Edmontonians, but student artists. Surely with all these local murals there must be room for one non-local mural.

  70. #70

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    Alex, perhaps ironically you linked to a local artist that in the very link you provided is asking for anybody that might support his mural artistic works. Nor were any of these works as well paid as what the Spanish artist got. But almost any look more attractive.

    A related concern, as commonly expressed here on C2E, is much of the infrastructure art that occurs here has been artists outside Canada getting those big buck payouts. For instance shiny metal rabbit poop.

    Do you ever notice far less criticism, and more acceptance when the particular work of art is Canadian made?
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2018 at 12:03 PM.
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    A high profile project will always have people criticizing it, as proven by this thread. It really doesn't matter where the artist is from.

  72. #72

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    ^It seems criticism is underrated in an apparent black and white world of for and against arbitrary lines. just saying.


    Criticism whether in response to literature, painting, really anything, is how things get better. Its how improvement and development occurs.

    Questions being asked is how things become to be known.

    I think in present day there may be too much criticism of criticism.

    We come from different generations, walks of life, and with different teachings. I was taught to study, evaluate, discuss share, explore.

    Theres some that would argue that one central purpose of art is to spur debate, thought, and enliven it. Indeed even the artist would want this kind of discussion to ensue. It says that we are interested, it says that art is significant, it says that art matters in our lives.

    but alas, according to Nobleea I'm giving this away to an audience of none.


    But there could be lurkers or people just reading and so I write. Here or in a diary on in a never published series of books, I love to write. Thank you to those that read some of it. Including you Alex. On this quiet board its nice to even get some replies.
    Last edited by Replacement; 20-07-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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    In Vancouver, a city I'm sure everyone would agree is a very artistic city, there's a cement plant on Granville Island that has "people" painted on 6 large columns. Those were painted by a Brazilian duo. I know this because Vancouver is celebrating that they had a famous duo paint it; they have information about the artwork in tourist brochures. Also, they crowdfunded part of the $125,000 it cost to make.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/1516278/b...-island-silos/

    I wonder how many people were upset that they didn't hire local artists to paint those?
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  74. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    In Vancouver, a city I'm sure everyone would agree is a very artistic city, there's a cement plant on Granville Island that has "people" painted on 6 large columns. Those were painted by a Brazilian duo. I know this because Vancouver is celebrating that they had a famous duo paint it; they have information about the artwork in tourist brochures. Also, they crowdfunded part of the $125,000 it cost to make.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/1516278/b...-island-silos/

    I wonder how many people were upset that they didn't hire local artists to paint those?
    Its an interesting example. As I recall there were some local critics of the project but more so due to the ballooning cost of it. It rose from 50K project to 175K at least. Oddly every involved had miscalculated the surface area required. There was also the theft of 20K of paint spray cans, a decision to put a protective coat which cost another 25K. The Artists kind of felt they were in over their heads as far as the time spent on this one. The murals were bigger than they had anticipated requiring much more time.

    Due to how tough the project was to complete it seems there was less reaction to it. Perhaps not many people even wanted to be involved in that one. But the Cement Trucks for Granville concrete plant have been painted for a long time. I can't find any google images of it but I thought the Silos had also been decorated before. Albeit with a lighting installation or something else. I can't remember, just always noted that cement plant looking unique even before the current murals.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    The point is that Vancouver, a city teeming with artists, paid some Brazilians to paint a high profile location, and they're now telling everyone that they had Brazilians paint a high profile location. It doesn't take away from any of the local art/artists there, just as have a Spanish artist paint a mural in Edmonton take away from the local art we have.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  76. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    The point is that Vancouver, a city teeming with artists, paid some Brazilians to paint a high profile location, and they're now telling everyone that they had Brazilians paint a high profile location. It doesn't take away from any of the local art/artists there, just as have a Spanish artist paint a mural in Edmonton take away from the local art we have.
    I get your point. Just don't necessarily agree with it. The silo art while fun is out of place. Its not iconic because it just doesn't fit. Its not part of its surroundings as an art. Its displaced and irrelevant. Lower mainland west coast art to me is ideally First Nation driven. Its what I want to see in the area. Its what a lot of people want to see.

    So that we have a juxtaposed South American mural in a foreign land that has no shortage of talented artists looking for work. The Silos would work better as Totem pole homage or something like that. jmo

    Virtually every one of the Cement trucks have more interesting art than the Silos which really isn't all that appealing really. I mean obviously an improvement over concrete but its nothing much as an art work other than massive.

    But as with any art it works for some, not for others.

    Maybe I'm a bit theist with Art. In Spain I want to see mostly Spanish Art, in Rome Italian, If i'm in Berlin I want to see bold and powerful street art and wall art that depicts the Cities unique struggle, history, and angst. To me those things fit. I don't want to see as much imported art. I want local. I feel that is MORE vibrant and more powerful an expression. So art centric saturation. Of a coherent local theme I feel gives flavor to the area. It established kind of what the area is.

    But back to this art in Old Strathcona it does capture a funky vibe so it does fit from that perspective.
    Last edited by Replacement; 21-07-2018 at 01:09 PM.
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    There was some cool First Nations art under the overpass, so they have the local style covered as well. Wish I snapped a photo so I could post it for you.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

  78. #78

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    Another potentially useful thread reduced to a thick, heavily-flowing stream of Replacement.

  79. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialog View Post
    Another potentially useful thread reduced to a thick, heavily-flowing stream of Replacement.
    Ahh, but the flowing stream of replacement adds sentiments at the meanders that are great fertilizer for the mine.
    Last edited by KC; 22-07-2018 at 07:56 AM.

  80. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dialog View Post
    Another potentially useful thread reduced to a thick, heavily-flowing stream of Replacement.
    So add content or discussion then instead of commenting on others.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  81. #81

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    Someone should just post a nice picture of the mural and close the thread. There isn’t much to discuss.

    A big salute to those who worked hard to make this happen! I’ll greatly enjoy the colour in the winter
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  82. #82

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    Heard an interview on this this morning on CBC radio Daybreak
    Another community level / grass roots initiative. The community will share all their information with any other community wishing to do the same.

    North Calgary:

    Get Involved – HUGE Mural Project – Northern Hills Community Association

    “500 volunteers. 3 days. 1 huge mural.

    Northern Hills’ HUGE Community Mural Project!

    We are painting the longest mural in Canada and we need your help to do it!”

    http://www.northernhills.ab.ca/mural-volunteer/
    Last edited by KC; 04-08-2018 at 09:36 AM.

  83. #83
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    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  84. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherklass View Post
    I don't remember this place. But now I want to ask Mark about this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudly View Post
    Does anyone remember the little shop in the alley, about half-way down, that kinda/sorta supplied spray artists with tips for their spray cans? Mark at Vivid Print talked about it being problematic when he was on the avenue and I only stopped by once. A real "hole-in-the-wall", more like a walled-off rear entrance.
    Homegrown Soul Shack. A huge supporter of the Hip Hop community in YEG. They also had a yearly event where they would paint the back of the building, drawing out the best of Edmonton Graff artists.


    On the topic of the Mural -
    1) its private cash. You don't like it? Put up your money and get one done the way you would like.
    2) Edmontons top Graff artists do get a lot of recognition and a lot of paid work. (See AJ Louden for example). But not every graff mural in the city needs to be done by a local artist. (coming from a local artist myself)
    youtube.com/BrothersGrim
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    I was waiting for my wife outside the farmers market this afternoon and I looked over to see 12 people (all at once, and not as a large group), pointing, taking photos and talking about the mural. I thought that was pretty awesome. There were others on the south side of the street snapping photos as well.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    I like it.
    "Talk minus action equals zero." - Joe Keithley, D. O. A.

  87. #87

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    “According to some, the problem was the suggestion of Indigenous inspiration — but an absence of Indigenous consultation.”

    So art can’t inspire?

    I don’t understand that myself.

    Also, what don’t “some say”?
    Last edited by KC; 05-08-2018 at 02:17 AM.

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    “According to some, the problem was the suggestion of Indigenous inspiration — but an absence of Indigenous consultation.”

    So art can’t inspire?

    I don’t understand that myself.

    Also, what don’t “some say”?
    The concern is the same that I raised earlier in the thread. That this was not indigenous art, this mural could have been done by a First nations artist and I think better representative.

    For the artist to state that the art was indigenous inspired with ZERO consultation with indigenous population here pretty much defines appropriation. As stated in the article this is not in any way indigenous art. It was predictable the work would be criticized on those grounds and foolish for the artist to make the comment. In fairness the artist would not know of the tense cultural appropriation debate going on in Canada but he stepped right in it saying it was indigenous inspired. I had concerns as well when that was stated.


    This is one of the problems with outsourcing culture. That it is not relevant to local culture and would not encompass or comprehend, or reflect it in anyway.


    Plus lets be clear here. The artist is making a protest mural of a Dog-man standing in Oil. He claims its about " man ******* with Nature" i.e., you know, Edmonton and Alberta ******* with nature. If David Suzuki, Neil Young, actual born Canadians come in here and make that comment they are told essentially to **** off. An art tourist that's not even Canadian and that doesn't even attempt to understand shoves the finger at the Oil industry and theres no criticism of that? Strange.

    Even on this board when Lululemon, who campaigned against the Oil industry, there was some fervor about that here and complete with boycott statements. Why the double standard with this work? Maybe this mural should have been done in Burnaby...

    Also not impressed with the Artist stating "I was only here 3 days, no time for any consultation, maybe I will if I ever come back..." Really kind of a callous statement. As was his self assessment that citing indigenous inspiration and his concept for the artwork was not appropriating in any way.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-08-2018 at 11:54 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  89. #89

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    These are strong statements from the article. I agree with the statements fully;

    Tanya Harnett, U of A professor;

    But, she added, "His words are problematic."
    For San Miguel to say he was inspired by Indigenous artworks was a step over the line.
    "The fact that we have somebody who is rather a tourist come and want to make Aboriginal art is rather irresponsible," she said. "As a cultural tourist, not spending time with Indigenous people does lack of some sincerity.

    Looking at the artwork, she doesn't see anything that shows Indigenous inspiration.
    "There's a deeper meaning when speaking about First Nations, animals and ceremony," she said. "It's important for the artist to talk to the people of this territory to see if they have the right to do the work or if there are any problems with the work."


    Now problems with the work would include misrepresenting the depiction of animals in the work. Which I think actually occurs in the work. Obviously if an artist was ripping off an indigenous depiction it would be appropriation. If the artist is depicting an indigenous spiritual animal in a way that is inappropriate to their belief system that is also a problem. The key is the artist really doesn't have a clue. This is the level of comprehension the artist is expressing;

    "I think my work is totally different," San Miguel said. "I talk about Indigenous [inspiration], but I tell more about how the modern system is f--king the nature."

    Emily Riddle;
    She said the use of the wolf-like figure without consultation of Indigenous people might send the wrong message. "We have wolves in the area and they mean a lot and have symbolism for Cree people," Riddle said.
    "We have a relationship with them, but I don't see how that's particularly reflected in the piece."

    Riddle said she understands the appeal of bringing in an international artist in the quest to compete with other Canadian cities as a world-class city. But she wonders if it shows an eagerness to support international artists while neglecting local ones.
    "I see the point in flying in an international artist to do it, it's just that I don't see Indigenous artists being supported in Edmonton the same way they are in other cities," Riddle said.
    "In Edmonton, I see myself reflected in people. But when I go to other Prairie cities like Winnipeg, or to Vancouver, I feel like there's more public Indigenous art."


    Glad to see these comments coming out. I'm thankful that Emily Riddle, part of a community, can express how here community and nation are impacted by attempts at appropriation.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    Replacement I disagree with everything you said. Who are you to question any artists inspiration. I hope we see more of this artists work in Edmonton. This notion of cultural appropriation makes me sick.
    Last edited by EdmTrekker; 05-08-2018 at 04:50 PM.

  91. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Replacement I disagree with everything you said. Who are you to question any artists inspiration. I hope we see more of this artists work in Edmonton. This notion of cultural appropriation makes me sick.

    Because you don't comprehend the issue of cultural appropriation it "makes you sick"?

    I questioned the artists inspiration because his explanation of it "man ******* with nature" is not very well conceived and its obvious to any of the indigenous peoples that spoke out that he really didn't connect on any depth or portray indigenous art, despite citing it. At best that's a pretty confused stance. At worst a person coming to a land experiencing Truth and Reconciliation and a rethinking of cultural genocide that has occurred here and ADDING to the cultural appropriation is dim witted. Quite clearly the artist had no idea of the potential conflicts, our national dialog, or he would not have made the remark about his work being indigenous inspired.

    Why should we see more of this artists work here? What does he have to do with Edmonton? I want less of these hired "tourist" artists here and more work for the people that are here, and that actually reflects people that are here. The latter is my own opinion but I think areas are richer when they contain a mode of artistic and even architectural work that is culturally relevant to the area. But we have this notion of Canada that we're boring, drab, and that nothing much good comes from here so that we should hire external artists to provide art in a veritable artistic hotbed. The greatest irony is this work being in Old Strathcona, easily one of the most artistic influenced areas in Alberta and that owes its vitality to the vibrancy of the local art scene.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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    I suggest you donate to Rust Magic; I believe they do a 50/50 split between local and imported artists, so just tell them you'd like to support a local artist.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    Replacement writes "Why should we see more of this artists work here? What does he have to do with Edmonton?"

    With your logic we better start throwing out all the artwork at AGA and RAM that was not created by someone now living and born in Edmonton.

  94. #94

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    Perfect point.

    Can't paint a Canadian landscape because the scenery was all appropriated.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  95. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Perfect point.

    Can't paint a Canadian landscape because the scenery was all appropriated.

    Not sure how that is a valid reply. The artist cited indigenous inspiration for his work. First nations authorities have called him out on that and that he had no consultation with indigenous peoples here which is an agreed statement of fact. The artist himself could have easily avoided the controversy by simply not stating "indigenous inspired". Its idiotic for him to state that, and theres nothing in the work that even remotely reflects indigenous culture as has been stated.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  96. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Perfect point.

    Can't paint a Canadian landscape because the scenery was all appropriated.

    Not sure how that is a valid reply. The artist cited indigenous inspiration for his work. First nations authorities have called him out on that and that he had no consultation with indigenous peoples here which is an agreed statement of fact. The artist himself could have easily avoided the controversy by simply not stating "indigenous inspired". Its idiotic for him to state that, and theres nothing in the work that even remotely reflects indigenous culture as has been stated.
    So, where would an outsider appropriately begin the process of consultation? Consulting with authorities or with artists?


    As for simply not stating it and the controversy wouldn’t have started. I agree. However what was the context? If he was asked what the inspiration was, should he have lied?
    Last edited by KC; 06-08-2018 at 11:00 AM.

  97. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmTrekker View Post
    Replacement writes "Why should we see more of this artists work here? What does he have to do with Edmonton?"

    With your logic we better start throwing out all the artwork at AGA and RAM that was not created by someone now living and born in Edmonton.
    While its standard practice for galleries or museums to have work from elsewhere they should have MORE local art, artifacts. Its interesting that you made that point. One of the foremost critiques of the British Museum in London is that it represents imperial times and plundered cultures and appropriated artifacts and art works. Theres been ongoing claims that the works should be returned to the regions, nations, from which they came. Indeed this being an argument that all colonial imperialist nations are hearing.


    The more we enter into this discussion here the more I tend to think people have not even scratched the surface of why cultural appropriation is wrong or even what it is.


    Finally Museums DO most often have particular reflections of the culture and region, country, in which its situated. In Alberta Museums tend to have a lot of fossils for obvious reasons. A lot of indigenous focus for obvious reasons. Settler focus for obvious reasons. The vast majority of RAM's specimen catalog is from around here. The vast majority of its displays are local themed. So what actually are you talking about?
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 10:57 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  98. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Perfect point.

    Can't paint a Canadian landscape because the scenery was all appropriated.

    Not sure how that is a valid reply. The artist cited indigenous inspiration for his work. First nations authorities have called him out on that and that he had no consultation with indigenous peoples here which is an agreed statement of fact. The artist himself could have easily avoided the controversy by simply not stating "indigenous inspired". Its idiotic for him to state that, and theres nothing in the work that even remotely reflects indigenous culture as has been stated.
    So, where would an outsider appropriately begin the process of consultation? Consulting with authorities or with artists?
    One or the other or both. Either would further a better understanding through consultation and make connections to people that would be good to talk to. Elders as well.


    We discuss things like casual racism here. This is an example in this thread discussion. Its not written, but its implied, that there is no value or reason to consult ACTUAL indigenous spirituality, culture, or belief systems even while a "tourist artist" cited indigenous inspiration". Yet the work, and the artist is not indigenous informed. The take from that is that consultation wasn't seen as any priority. Would Michelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel without any knowledge or consultation with a faith? Its a valid question. Its a question being asked by indigenous peoples. Why is the culture and expertise in their spirituality and belief system not valued? Why does consultation not even occur?

    This episode reinforces why the dialog needs to be heard and listened to. Apparently we still don't get it. We can plunder another culture, even say were doing that without even attempting to understand that culture.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 11:18 AM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  99. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Perfect point.

    Can't paint a Canadian landscape because the scenery was all appropriated.

    Not sure how that is a valid reply. The artist cited indigenous inspiration for his work. First nations authorities have called him out on that and that he had no consultation with indigenous peoples here which is an agreed statement of fact. The artist himself could have easily avoided the controversy by simply not stating "indigenous inspired". Its idiotic for him to state that, and theres nothing in the work that even remotely reflects indigenous culture as has been stated.
    So, where would an outsider appropriately begin the process of consultation? Consulting with authorities or with artists?
    One or the other or both. Either would further a better understanding through consultation and make connections to people that would be good to talk to. Elders as well.


    We discuss things like casual racism here. This is an example in this thread discussion. Its not written, but its implied, that there is no value or reason to consult ACTUAL indigenous spirituality, culture, or belief systems even while a "tourist artist" cited indigenous inspiration". Yet the work, and the artist is not indigenous informed. The take from that is that consultation wasn't seen as any priority. Would Michelangelo paint the Sistine Chapel without any knowledge or consultation with a faith? Its a valid question. Its a question being asked by indigenous peoples. Why is the culture and expertise in their spirituality and belief system not valued? Why does consultation not even occur?

    This episode reinforces why the dialog needs to be heard and listened to. Apparently we still don't get it. We can plunder another culture, even say were doing that without even attempting to understand that culture.
    “Its not written, but its implied, that there is no value or reason to consult ACTUAL indigenous spirituality, culture, or belief systems even while a "tourist artist" cited indigenous inspiration". “

    Seems to me that you’re failing to consult before calling out “racism”.

    So are you saying that an artist in another part of the world having say, looked at some art created by artists in another part of the world (but failing to become informed about that art), cannot be “inspired” by that art.

    So this would mean that a piece of art produced by any artist can not stand on its own as inspirational material for any other artist, unless the viewing artist seeks to understand the culture of the artist producing it?

    Similarly watching a Shakespearian play, in and of itself, can not be said to be inspirational to other writers unless those writers consult with experts.

    Possibly a better model to follow, as long as the wealthy are able to backstop the process:
    Where faith and beauty bloom: Inside Edmonton’s new Islamic-inspired garden - The Globe and Mail

    “The project was planned and designed over eight years by a U.S.-based landscape architecture firm that dispatched employees to study historical sites around the globe. They saturated themselves in Islamic landscapes and consulted with scholars to understand the underlying themes. Medieval Islamic gardens are known for their use of geometric lines and terraces to tame uneven terrain. Water is a primary component and is often displayed in a variety of ways.”

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...amic-inspired/
    Last edited by KC; 06-08-2018 at 11:39 AM.

  100. #100

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    KC, my comments that you quoted are exactly what the indigenous authorities in the article cited, So I'm not sure what you are stating in response to me citing the actual concerns as expressed.

    The longstanding feeling that indigenous culture, spirituality, art, religion should be wiped out in cultural genocide is something that this country is trying to recover from. So that a claim of casual racism still persisting, when people still exhibit such confusion and stating things like "the notion of cultural appropriation makes me sick" then its pretty clear to me that some conceptual difficulties in understanding persist.

    As far as referencing its even in our system of science. If you reference an article or study in a Scientific paper its expected that you consulted, i.e. at least read that work and are not misrepresenting it and that you are able to specifically cite in footnote reference and specifically in how it applies to your work. This is all expected.

    As per the indigenous authorities quoted the Artist in question cited indigenous inspiration in a work that does not even remotely reflect indigenous belief systems or connection with spirit animals.

    So that the artist here is citing out of any context. He's being called out on that very thing..


    The key thing is if you cite something, than you ought to be informed on what that is.


    As far as your other comment what would English Blues of the 60's have sounded like if it hadn't listened to the actual Blues? What would the commentary be if those artists hadn't profusely cited the works and inspirations in name and in record and songwriter acknowledgement. The difference is clear. Artists that owed to the original blues work and said so and had a passion and informed love of the work they are replicating vs rip off charlatans that couldn't be bothered.
    Last edited by Replacement; 06-08-2018 at 12:17 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

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