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Thread: In Wilson-Raybould's own words.

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by SP59 View Post
    Perhaps the only way to get ethical government is to insist that all MP calls be recorded.
    Do you think that would help? If they knew they would then just have their conversations in person, probably costing taxpayers more money

  2. #202

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    Recorded doesn’t mean they will be available to the public nor should they be. Our country needs to be able to protect secrets.

    Let’s get real guys.

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Raybould recorded the call, while at home, a call that was unsolicited, was yet one more example of the continued harassment and serial interference she had encountered, because she knew the call was (again) going to be inappropriate. Indeed the call reveals it was inappropriate, it was featuring veiled threats, pressures to illegal action, and consequence for refusal. Which circumstances have continued to corroborate since.

    A female AG was repeatedly attacked and pressured by male colleagues, who all claim she saw it her own way, that her recollection was inaccurate, she provides recorded testimony clearly confirming there was pressure and veiled threats and the sum liberal reaction is shock that she recorded the phone call, which she recorded in anticipation that it would be inappropriate, and that she would be railroaded, by her own party. She even voiced she was at home, she had no option while at home of dictation, which she would have opted for as a stated preference.

    This is where we are at.

    With Liberals attacking her for recording the unsolicited threatening call that was made to her at her home residence. That could even be viewed in its serial context as episodic harassment. She recorded that call. From a person that has lied repeatedly about his involvement, about being non partisan, and lied about Raybould being pressured, while engaging in it himself.

    I'm not surprised at all, but I should be, that the Liberals are now trying to distract this to Raybould impropriety because she sought to have clear record of the call she knew would be entirely inappropriate (and she was right).
    Further interesting opinions and observations:



    Why did Jody Wilson-Raybould have to go? Because: white nationalists. - Macleans.ca
    by Sarmishta Subramanian Apr 3, 2019

    “...Let’s talk about that recording—by all appearances the act of a woman who felt sufficiently under siege to think she might need proof of what actually transpired. (She was not wrong.) Within the government it seemed to eclipse every principle except ...”

    https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/why-...-nationalists/

    On another note, earlier in the thread I was questioning of Wilson-Raybould’s honour for only reporting the supposed unwarranted interference after her job loss. Not a big point of concern but had she won the battle on her SNC-Lavalin decision plus maintained her AG role, would she have revealed facts behind the alleged political interference? However, it seems she had the foresight to suitably document the alleged harassment so it’s clear that she wasn’t digging for reasons to get revenge post termination. The likely end game of termination was clear enough for her to build and preserve records.
    Last edited by KC; 03-04-2019 at 09:03 PM.

  4. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    If she was being so open about the manner she was speaking, why not simply state at the beginning "I am recording this call"? Because she didn't want Wernick to know he was being recorded. And why would Wernick suspect that she was? They were colleagues, supposedly on the same side, albeit the same side having a disagreement. If you were in the midst of a prolonged spat with your spouse, would your first thought during a phone call be "I bet they're recording this"?

    For someone that invoked attorney/client privilege not that long ago, she seems to have no problems bending or breaking the rules herself.
    You’re kidding. Before you cast her actions as potentially illegal. Now you say she was bending or breaking the rules. Yet aren’t you totally ignoring the actions of other officials that seem to have prompted her defensive reactions?

    Also, you talk about sides. Now that’s fascinating.

    Maybe they should work in the interest of Canadians - not in the interest of their “side”.
    Last edited by KC; 03-04-2019 at 09:15 PM.

  5. #205

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    To be fair there are two sides not just JWR’s. Evidence given to a judicial committee from both sides and some pretty clear evidence that the PMO, the JWR were talking at each other and hearing different things. Then somehow the civil service got involved.

    Do I think there was pressure, yes. Do I think it was at the level JWR seems to categorize it, no. Did she engage in entrapment, likely not but the possibility is there... further more how did she ever expect to stay in the liberal caucus? Of course she was going to be turfed further to that her list of demands was over the top.

    There are more then a few cognitive disconnects on both sides of the story. The truth lies in the mushy middle.

    I think some political operatives smelled blood in the water, tried to take a bite out of the big fish and got ate in the process.

    One thing is clear this was no Saturday naught massacre... this was not our PM firing his way through the judicial department in an attempt to cover up the fact he knew of and endorsed the crime of theft from his political opponents.

    As flakey as our PM may sound. It was ludicrous for JWR that she was “protecting the PM”. How odd it was that she remained a “proud” liberal. I’m a firm believer in actions over words and as far as JWR actions... they don’t exactly pass the smell test. Not saying she isn’t truthful how she felt but what she did after was odd.

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    The daughters of the vote, were really behind JWR. They thought she was a strong women who they admired.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/daug...ster-1.4364692

  7. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    The daughters of the vote, were really behind JWR. They thought she was a strong women who they admired.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/daug...ster-1.4364692
    Admiration can lead to bias. In this case possible sexism from a group based on sexism (why daughters and not children?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    The daughters of the vote, were really behind JWR. They thought she was a strong women who they admired.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/daug...ster-1.4364692
    Admiration can lead to bias. In this case possible sexism from a group based on sexism (why daughters and not children?).
    Because it's called daughters, to try and get more women into politics, not that it does much good , if you look what's happened to two of them recently. Actually three out of JTs caucus. I see nothing wrong with daughters, not everything has to change or be changed..I also don't believe it leads to bias.

  9. #209

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    Contained the scandal?

    Isn’t that another way of excusing and condoning a coverup? Moreover that is not what she said making the headline misleading.


    Philpott says clear apology from Trudeau could have quickly contained SNC-Lavalin scandal
    Excerpt:
    “"I would have liked, all along, to have the prime minister come forward and accept some responsibility. and to apologize to Canadians for what happened," she said ”

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/phi...ucus-1.5084028
    Last edited by KC; 04-04-2019 at 04:23 PM.

  10. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    The daughters of the vote, were really behind JWR. They thought she was a strong women who they admired.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/daug...ster-1.4364692
    Admiration can lead to bias. In this case possible sexism from a group based on sexism (why daughters and not children?).
    Because it's called daughters, to try and get more women into politics, not that it does much good , if you look what's happened to two of them recently. Actually three out of JTs caucus. I see nothing wrong with daughters, not everything has to change or be changed..I also don't believe it leads to bias.
    Under reported is the fact that some of these young women also walked out when Scheer was speaking as well.

  11. #211

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    Senate could launch special committee to investigate issues in SNC-Lavalin scandal – National Post

    https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...avalin-scandal

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Senate could launch special committee to investigate issues in SNC-Lavalin scandal – National Post

    https://nationalpost.com/news/politi...avalin-scandal
    But it's stacked with liberals , pretending to be independents..;
    At issue, all agreed tonight, JTs brand is damaged. I'm good with that.

  13. #213

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    The SNC Lavalin scandal was originally a 3rd rate scandal. Back in February, Trudeau should have admitted fault and apologized to Canadians and put the issue to rest. By now we would be discussing the budget.

    Instead Trudeau lied about the events and fumbled the ball for the next two months, raising this into a 2nd rate scandal compared to the many previous government scandals.

    Some people would call this the biggest scandal in Canada when it is clearly not. No one died as a result and there were no bribes or costs to the taxpayers for fraudulent criminal activity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...dals_in_Canada

    I don't believe that we have all the facts but we know the bulk of the issues. Some people have resigned and Wilson-Raybould got her pound of flesh.

    Wilson-Raybould told the prime minister she would stay in cabinet, under certain conditions.


    They included firing Gerald Butts, Michael Wernick and Mathieu Bouchard.


    So far Butts has resigned and Wernick is retiring. Bouchard remains for now. She also wanted Trudeau to apologize, either publicly or before cabinet and that has not happened yet as far as I know.

    She really overreached with her demand that her replacement as justice minister and attorney general, David Lametti, would be directed to not authorize a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) for SNC-Lavalin.

    Her whole issue in this scandal was she wanted to enshrine the independence of her office but then she wants to apply strict conditions on her replacement and that is not only disingenuous but also something she would have refused as a condition of her own appointment.
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    ^I think the original mistake was to remove Jody Wilson-Raybould as Minister of Justice and Attorney-General (which along with Foreign Affairs and Finance are the 3 most senior portfolios in any Federal Cabinet) when to all outward appearances she had acquitted herself well there. Trudeau and Butts had to be completely tone deaf to not realize that offering her Indigenous Services was a terrible idea. Based on her well-known criticisms of the Indian Act, she rightly said that she did not want to be seen as an Indian Agent to her own people. After refusing Indigenous Services, they turn around and demote her to Veteran Affairs which is the very definition of a junior portfolio (and no offence to our vets but also a political graveyard for Ministers).

    What Trudeau and Butts should have done if they wanted to move Philpott to Treasury Board to replace Brison was appoint someone other than Wilson-Raybould to Indigenous Services.

    The claim Trudeau made that the only reason Wilson-Raybould was moved out of Justice was because of Brison's resignation has been shown to be a bald faced lie. No amount of apologizing excuses this fact or the subsequent smear campaign against Wilson-Raybould from anonymous sources that followed.

  15. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    The SNC Lavalin scandal was originally a 3rd rate scandal. Back in February, Trudeau should have admitted fault and apologized to Canadians and put the issue to rest. By now we would be discussing the budget.

    Instead Trudeau lied about the events and fumbled the ball for the next two months, raising this into a 2nd rate scandal compared to the many previous government scandals.

    Some people would call this the biggest scandal in Canada when it is clearly not. No one died as a result and there were no bribes or costs to the taxpayers for fraudulent criminal activity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...dals_in_Canada

    I don't believe that we have all the facts but we know the bulk of the issues. Some people have resigned and Wilson-Raybould got her pound of flesh.

    Wilson-Raybould told the prime minister she would stay in cabinet, under certain conditions.


    They included firing Gerald Butts, Michael Wernick and Mathieu Bouchard.


    So far Butts has resigned and Wernick is retiring. Bouchard remains for now. She also wanted Trudeau to apologize, either publicly or before cabinet and that has not happened yet as far as I know.

    She really overreached with her demand that her replacement as justice minister and attorney general, David Lametti, would be directed to not authorize a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) for SNC-Lavalin.

    Her whole issue in this scandal was she wanted to enshrine the independence of her office but then she wants to apply strict conditions on her replacement and that is not only disingenuous but also something she would have refused as a condition of her own appointment.
    Claptrap. Obviously Raybould did not want her decision overturned through her firing (which occurred for the cynical purpose of her decision being overturned) by Lametti, who was quite clearly going to be amenable to Trudeau's wish. I think its fair game for Raybould to voice that opposition as her removal from AG portfolio was obviously a power scam due to JT's determination to help SNC Lavelin at any cost including summarily removing her authority. Given that the issue had already been dealt with there was no valid reason for the new AG to intervene to alter a decision at the 11th hour.

    "Raybould got her pound of flesh" Is that what liberals are reduced to now? insulting Raybould in the worst possible terms? Well, at least you have company. Not a good look, but not isolated attack for sure.

    Raybould sought justice. Not ironic to her portfolio, in any way. Your gross distortions notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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  16. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Raybould sought justice. Not ironic to her portfolio, in any way. Your gross distortions notwithstanding.
    Well, maybe not

    Wilson-Raybould denies trying to hamstring Lametti on SNC-Lavalin file
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wil...etti-1.5085930
    CBC News reached out to Wilson-Raybould Wednesday night about the list of demands, but she declined to comment.

    Contradictory version of events
    In an email to CBC News Thursday night, she said, "I have never and would never seek to interfere with the exercise of prosecutorial discretion by the attorney general of Canada."


    After Wilson-Raybould issued that statement, CBC news re-contacted the sources for this story. One said Wilson-Raybould raised the demand that the DPP's decision on SNC-Lavalin be respected directly with Trudeau during their conversations in Vancouver before she resigned from cabinet.


    But, the source said, that condition was not part of the conversations in the recent days leading up to Tuesday's expulsion from caucus, as the demands Wilson-Raybould wanted met evolved and changed throughout the weeks of discussions.


    Liberal MP Adam Vaughan said he was "confused" by that condition because it flies in the face of her claim that the attorney general should always be independent of political direction.


    "I don't understand how you can say you should never interfere with an attorney general's decision, and yet she wanted to effectively handcuff the new attorney general," he said Thursday. "Either you believe in that principle, and I respect her for believing in it, or you don't."
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  17. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Raybould sought justice. Not ironic to her portfolio, in any way. Your gross distortions notwithstanding.
    Well, maybe not

    Wilson-Raybould denies trying to hamstring Lametti on SNC-Lavalin file
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wil...etti-1.5085930
    CBC News reached out to Wilson-Raybould Wednesday night about the list of demands, but she declined to comment.

    Contradictory version of events
    In an email to CBC News Thursday night, she said, "I have never and would never seek to interfere with the exercise of prosecutorial discretion by the attorney general of Canada."


    After Wilson-Raybould issued that statement, CBC news re-contacted the sources for this story. One said Wilson-Raybould raised the demand that the DPP's decision on SNC-Lavalin be respected directly with Trudeau during their conversations in Vancouver before she resigned from cabinet.


    But, the source said, that condition was not part of the conversations in the recent days leading up to Tuesday's expulsion from caucus, as the demands Wilson-Raybould wanted met evolved and changed throughout the weeks of discussions.


    Liberal MP Adam Vaughan said he was "confused" by that condition because it flies in the face of her claim that the attorney general should always be independent of political direction.


    "I don't understand how you can say you should never interfere with an attorney general's decision, and yet she wanted to effectively handcuff the new attorney general," he said Thursday. "Either you believe in that principle, and I respect her for believing in it, or you don't."
    Its not confusing at all. Raybould knew she was simply being bounced from AG, so that Trudeau could assert Lametti to intervene. After the AG incumbent had actually ruled on the matter. I think a reasonable view has it that Raybould knew her eviction was a scam, for one purpose, Trudeau attempting to get his way, and she was right. Wernick even made clear in the audio how right she was.

    These are just convenient misdirections by Liberals. Attempts at damage control. By a party that is being quite abusive, as well, to two very high profile female ministers. Which is at least ironic in view of Trudeau's sunny ways dictum and his because its 2015 gender bending cabinet. Apparently all female cabinet members are equal provided they heed the direction of male power players directing them.

    I support Raybould in this because she ought to have been able to continue in the ministry in which she was assigned. There was no valid reason to unseat her, if there was, through her own incompetence, negligence, or dereliction of duty then my view would be different. But she was replaced for the most cynical reason possible, and she knew that. The whole nation does.

    My take is that Raybould sought it reasonable to voice a condition as she felt she ought to still be the incumbent, in the portfolio, and that her eviction was without merit or valid reason. Indeed her eviction was SO that her decision regarding SNC Lavelin could be overturned.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 11:39 AM.
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  18. #218

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    We know why she was replaced and I have respect for her position and ethics. If it is true that she demanded that her decision on SNC is the law of the land, that is overreach.
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    I support Raybould in this because she ought to have been able to continue in the ministry in which she was assigned. There was no valid reason to unseat her, if there was, through her own incompetence, negligence, or dereliction of duty then my view would be different. But she was replaced for the most cynical reason possible, and she knew that. The whole nation does.
    Well said, you put into words, what many are thinking..

  20. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    We know why she was replaced and I have respect for her position and ethics. If it is true that she demanded that her decision on SNC is the law of the land, that is overreach.
    Overreach is Trudeau directing and pressuring the AG, firing her, replacing her, for the expressed reason of helping SNC Lavelin get deferred prosecution. That is overreach and what predicates this entire event.

    The fact remains that Raybould ought to still be in the portfolio and it is through no fault of hers that she is not. She was deposed. In a power play.


    Fortunately in a democracy voters get to decide, eventually, how to respond when such malfeasance has taken place. Sunny ways, female gender empowerment and egality, sure..
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  21. #221

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    I am no fan of SNC Lavelin and I believe that the company has been reif with corruption for decades and is way to close to governments, both Liberal and Conservative.

    The Trudeau Liberals were lobbied to let the the SNC get off the hook and SNC bullied their way by holding employee jobs as hostage. Trudeau took the bait and ran roughshod over JWR and her Ministry.

    When this came to light in February, Trudeau should have exposed the whole affair and admitted his fault. Instead, he lied and hoped it would go away. It became a second class scandal and the voters will merit out punishment.



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  22. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I am no fan of SNC Lavelin and I believe that the company has been reif with corruption for decades and is way to close to governments, both Liberal and Conservative.

    The Trudeau Liberals were lobbied to let the the SNC get off the hook and SNC bullied their way by holding employee jobs as hostage. Trudeau took the bait and ran roughshod over JWR and her Ministry.

    When this came to light in February, Trudeau should have exposed the whole affair and admitted his fault. Instead, he lied and hoped it would go away. It became a second class scandal and the voters will merit out punishment.



    The voters might even mete out punishment. That would be the pound of flesh, last shoe dropping..
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  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by East McCauley View Post
    ^I think the original mistake was to remove Jody Wilson-Raybould as Minister of Justice and Attorney-General (which along with Foreign Affairs and Finance are the 3 most senior portfolios in any Federal Cabinet) when to all outward appearances she had acquitted herself well there. Trudeau and Butts had to be completely tone deaf to not realize that offering her Indigenous Services was a terrible idea. Based on her well-known criticisms of the Indian Act, she rightly said that she did not want to be seen as an Indian Agent to her own people. After refusing Indigenous Services, they turn around and demote her to Veteran Affairs which is the very definition of a junior portfolio (and no offence to our vets but also a political graveyard for Ministers).

    What Trudeau and Butts should have done if they wanted to move Philpott to Treasury Board to replace Brison was appoint someone other than Wilson-Raybould to Indigenous Services.

    The claim Trudeau made that the only reason Wilson-Raybould was moved out of Justice was because of Brison's resignation has been shown to be a bald faced lie. No amount of apologizing excuses this fact or the subsequent smear campaign against Wilson-Raybould from anonymous sources that followed.
    I think what's ultimately at play here is that voters will tolerate a lot from politicians, but what they won't tolerate is hypocrisy. And when Trudeau's entire brand was based around feminism and reconciliation and government by cabinet not PMO and not doing politics as usual and so on and so forth, he's incredibly vulnerable if he turns out to be just like every other politician. Which, by all appearances, he very much is. And on top of that, the way this whole thing has been handled is very much bush league.

    Paul Wells had a great column on this, as well: https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ott...ins-of-ottawa/

    Finally, all three of these scandalettes have laid bare a stubbornly ramshackle approach to running what has sometimes been a serious country. When flying to India, sure, pack your embroidered sherwani and your convicted attempted murderer, but also maybe bring along a travel plan, a sales pitch and a list of objectives worth achieving. Especially if your ineptitude is about to guarantee you will never get a second chance to visit India.

    On SNC, what emerges from all the testimony is the impression that a dozen kids from the McGill debating team snuck into the abandoned ruins of Ottawa and started pretending to be the government of Canada. Jody complained to Bill that Elder and Ben were being mean to Jessica. Justin sent Michael but somehow Michael didn’t have the Section 13 ruling Jody had sent to Mathieu. Then it was Christmas and they all went home for a month.

    Where the hell were the 208,000 public servants whose job was to ensure options were explored and workflows respected? Why, in September, when Wernick says everyone was distracted by NAFTA, did nobody at the weekly deputy ministers’ meeting say, “Well, there’s only room for 10 people at the NAFTA table, so why don’t the rest of us strike a working group of officials from Justice, Finance, Innovation and the Privy Council to ride this SNC puppy until we know what’s what?”

    I’m pretty sure the reason this didn’t happen is that Butts found it thrilling to have all the important conversations run through his phone. That’s a bush-league reason to stumble into a government-shaking mess.

  24. #224

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    Sadly, your average Canadian is more scandalized by this cabinet infighting than they are with Scheer's footsie plating with white supremacists like Faith Goldy and her ilk or his inability to say the words Muslim or Mosque after the New Zealand shooting.

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    /\/\Thankfully your average Canadian is not going to be distracted from the issue of Trudeau's hypocrisy by your pathetic attempts at deflection.

  27. #227

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    Well, well, well... We found out that Trudeau is human after all and behind that facade, he is a politician and uses political means.

    Well what were you expecting, a Messiah?

    Do you expect that Andrew Scheer’s Conservatives and all the followers of the Harper style of politics to be more virtuous? If you do, you will be sadly disappointed.

    I don't know who to vote for in the next election.

    Liberal, NDP or Conservative; they all smell the same.

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  28. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sadly, your average Canadian is more scandalized by this cabinet infighting than they are with Scheer's footsie plating with white supremacists like Faith Goldy and her ilk or his inability to say the words Muslim or Mosque after the New Zealand shooting.
    Whataboutism ?

    First Scheer isn’t the PM.

    Secondly this is about how an allegedly very corrupt company gets dealt with by our legal system and what happens to those with higher ethics in their positions.

    To me, so far on this issue, you seem to be a serial apologist for what has happened here. Why? Why the lack of outrage here over potential PM overreach? I’d say that you’ve almost certainly expressed outrage over US Presidential overreach? I may be wrong of course. Maybe it was another poster that was put off by posters such as MrOilers, H.L., and others for their lack of expressed outrage over similar US issues.
    Last edited by KC; 05-04-2019 at 01:03 PM.

  29. #229

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    If she’s right, then it seems that various Liberals were again attempting character assassination via trying to cast her as the Self serving.


    Wilson-Raybould denies trying to hamstring Lametti on SNC-Lavalin file

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wil...etti-1.5085930

  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    To me, so far on this issue, you seem to be a serial apologist for what has happened here. Why? Why the lack of outrage here over potential PM overreach? I’d say that you’ve almost certainly expressed outrage over US Presidential overreach? I may be wrong of course. Maybe it was another poster that was put off by posters such as MrOilers, H.L., and others for their lack of expressed outrage over similar US issues.
    KC, let's not compare a single Canadian scandal of a corrupt company trying to put pressure on the Liberal government and the PMO pressuring the Justice Minister to wave the charges.

    Firstly, there is not the same legal structure under the Canadian Constitution separating the Judiciary from the PM as in the US.

    Second, the US issues are a 1st rate scandal as there is evidence of not only criminal political interference but also people already jailed for fraud, 199 indictments, illegal activities with foreign entities and possible treason, money laundering and many other crimes.
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  31. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sadly, your average Canadian is more scandalized by this cabinet infighting than they are with Scheer's footsie plating with white supremacists like Faith Goldy and her ilk or his inability to say the words Muslim or Mosque after the New Zealand shooting.
    Whataboutism ?

    First Scheer isn’t the PM.

    Secondly this is about how an allegedly very corrupt company gets dealt with by our legal system and what happens to those with higher ethics in their positions.

    To me, so far on this issue, you seem to be a serial apologist for what has happened here. Why? Why the lack of outrage here over potential PM overreach? I’d say that you’ve almost certainly expressed outrage over US Presidential overreach? I may be wrong of course. Maybe it was another poster that was put off by posters such as MrOilers, H.L., and others for their lack of expressed outrage over similar US issues.
    Nope, not apologizing. However, from what I have read and seen and heard, it seems to be more a case of differing interpretations of what is proper behaviour between various parts of cabinet. Trudeau believes that pointing out alternatives that exist in legislation did not cross a line while Wilson-Reybould feels that it did. There's also those who believe that the Prime Minister should not have the power to shuffle their cabinet as they see fit. Do we need legislation that restrains when a cabinet can be shuffled? Should a PM's initial cabinet appointee have the job for the duration of the government unless illegality is shown to exist or they willing step down?

    It seems more like an argument over management style than anything else. Wilson-Reybould herslef has said that there was nothing illegal that happened, as would be the case in the PMO telling her that she HAD to decide one way or the other in a case. She refused to even consider all the alternatives open to the office. And then she decided that the best way to handle it was to secretly record at least one conversation. Are there more? Who knows? But if she recorded one, who's to say that she didn't record others?

    Could the PM have handled things differently? Of course. Could she, again, of course. But they both decided to act and react as they did and when it comes down to it, one of them is in charge of the entire government and the other answers to him. Should she be able to hold onto her portfolio no matter what? Should he have to give her a list of the reasons why she moved her out? Maybe we should move to a more American system of cabinet appointees where Parliament is required to sign off on changes. You don't get the votes, you don't get the job. And, by the same token, the PM could be required to get permission from the house in order to remove a sitting cabinet minister from their position.

  32. #232

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    ^While I don't agree with much of what you state politically, the one point that is at least salient is that Raybould does in chain of command "answer" to Justin Trudeau. That said she was in an incumbency, AG Minister, that is supposed to have some independence to it.

    In the broader picture though, and this occurs in politics, in life, in orgs, as much as Justin Trudeau IS the Liberal leader and Prime Minister, he is only as figurehead. He does not have the job experience, life experience, qualification, to be in this position. He has the name recognition. He's poorly qualified for the role, which is increasingly evident, and so part of the difficulty in this whole proceeding is a Prime Minister practicing beyond competence telling a very qualified (and much better candidate) what she should do.

    In chains of command people in orgs CAN do this but you avoid advice from much better qualified staff at your own peril. Even if you consider them to have subservient roles, or, cough, to be subservient.


    As an aside I thought about the irony of Khan, a liberal leader, in the provincial debate last night emphasizing his law background so often and inputting that "he's the only one qualified to comment" and thinking about Trudeau's simultaneous forays in telling Raybould what she should be doing. Without one modicum of self reflection or question as to whether he might be right, wrong, or grossly unqualified to make such assessment. That these statements, events unfold in the same timeframe gave me a moment of liberal, unintended, ironic, serendipity.

    But that would be but one reason why Khan is trying so hard to distance from the Federal liberals. Sorry, you picked the wrong brand to fly in Alberta. You don't get to have that complete disconnect Khan. Only Decore ever managed it. That moment isn't coming back.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 03:04 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  33. #233

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    Sorry, but Trudeau is not just a figurehead any more than all the other Prime Ministers wee. He got the job the same way, by being elected party leader and then winning an election. That's the job qualification.

    What qualifications did Stephen Harper have? He worked in a mailroom and then for a lobbying firm. Yeah, rock solid credentials there. But he wasn't a figurehead because he won the office the same way that Trudeau did. Party leader -> Win election = Prime Minister.

  34. #234

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    ^Ridiculous. Justin Trudeau is relatively very unqualified to be Prime Minister. His level of applicable experience is very limited. He has very little skill or experience to draw on. At best he has "what would daddy do or say here"

    Unfortunately for Justin Trudeau is he does not appear to have his fathers IQ or ability to think, or navigate issues either. He has instead blunt myopic vision that is perhaps more fitting for a twitterverse era, but is revealed anyway.


    Theres few instances in Canadian federal politics where an elected PM was this obviously lacking sufficient qualification. This was a Charismatic figure elected on sunny ways, selfies, and not much else. It doesn't get more vacant. I suspect even liberal supporters will inevitably be viewing that error in short time.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 03:26 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  35. #235

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    So Replacement, please provide a list of qualifications, education and work experience required to be qualified to be PM.

    IMHO, being a lawyer is certainly a stain on your resume.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  36. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sorry, but Trudeau is not just a figurehead any more than all the other Prime Ministers wee. He got the job the same way, by being elected party leader and then winning an election. That's the job qualification.

    What qualifications did Stephen Harper have? He worked in a mailroom and then for a lobbying firm. Yeah, rock solid credentials there. But he wasn't a figurehead because he won the office the same way that Trudeau did. Party leader -> Win election = Prime Minister.
    Trudeaus sum qualification is his surname and his father. Anybody not died in the wool liberal can spot that. he won both the Liberal leadership, and the election, primarily on that ticket.

    He's Canada's version of Bush, pun intended.

    Or alternately Clinton.

    Name has more than anything to do with him being PM.

    Its hilarious though that multiple liberal supporters in the thread here feel that Justin Trudeau has adequate qualification, experience, background, merit, for his present position. He won the Liberal ticket from a party desperate to get him to run, due to his name, and to make him leader, due to his name.

    One term is more than he, or the Liberal party deserved.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  37. #237

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    ^ so Canada should be a one party state. What do you think of the modern conservative movement. Do you think it is the best we can be?
    "Do you give people who already use transit a better service, or do you build it where they don't use it in the hopes they might start to use it?" Nenshi

  38. #238

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sorry, but Trudeau is not just a figurehead any more than all the other Prime Ministers wee. He got the job the same way, by being elected party leader and then winning an election. That's the job qualification.

    What qualifications did Stephen Harper have? He worked in a mailroom and then for a lobbying firm. Yeah, rock solid credentials there. But he wasn't a figurehead because he won the office the same way that Trudeau did. Party leader -> Win election = Prime Minister.
    Trudeaus sum qualification is his surname and his father. Anybody not died in the wool liberal can spot that. he won both the Liberal leadership, and the election, primarily on that ticket.

    He's Canada's version of Bush, pun intended.

    Or alternately Clinton.

    Name has more than anything to do with him being PM.

    Its hilarious though that multiple liberal supporters in the thread here feel that Justin Trudeau has adequate qualification, experience, background, merit, for his present position. He won the Liberal ticket from a party desperate to get him to run, due to his name, and to make him leader, due to his name.

    One term is more than he, or the Liberal party deserved.
    So what do you consider to be qualifications to be Prime Minister? Not what qualities do you think they should have. What legal qualifications should be required? Under the law, the qualification for prime minister is being named to the position by the Governor General. That's it. However, they usually go with a) a member of parliament (although it's possible to name a party leader who doesn't have a seat), b) leader of the majority or party with the most seats in the case of a minority and c) a Canadian citizen at least 18 years of age (as required to be an MP.

    That's it. No "You must be 35" as in the states. So, of a, b or c, which qualification does Trudeau not have? I may nor have considered Harper a good choice for PM due to him being a skin covered lizard person but that didn't affect his qualification to be PM.

  39. #239

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    Wilson-Raybould was removed from the position and one would hope such a decision wasn’t purely a result of Trudeau acting in isolation and autocratically.

    I would think that that decision occurred following Trudeau’s interactions/consultations with a number of highly qualified and/or experienced party officials and/or bureaucrats.


    On the issue of recordings, we don’t know who else is recording conversations. Moreover, as the article I posted above (Maclean’s?) said, private text messages were promptly handed over early on, without any outcry.



    Why did Jody Wilson-Raybould have to go? Because: white nationalists.
    Sarmishta Subramanian: In a remarkably short time, Wilson-Raybould went from best-case example of diversity in action to party pariah and mortal threat to Canada’s last hope against the alt-right
    by Sarmishta Subramanian Apr 3, 2019

    ...


    “Let’s talk about that recording—by all appearances the act of a woman who felt sufficiently under siege to think she might need proof of what actually transpired. (She was not wrong.) Within the government it seemed to eclipse every principle except how Liberal party members like to ...”


    “For Liberals, that recording is a convenient (if not very believable) smoking gun—especially given that the MP who didn’t make a recording was punished the same way. The public outrage over it, though, is even more disingenuous. Really this response has nothing to do with breach of trust or an MP’s un-collegial behaviour. Imagine a muzzled senior official in Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government recording a conversation laying bare the PMO’s machinations. We’d be shocked, but very appreciative. Besides, Trudeau vs. Wilson-Raybould was not a criminal proceeding. People could have been discomfited by how the conversation came to light and still admitted its relevance and the facts it presents.”


    https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/why-...-nationalists/
    Last edited by KC; 05-04-2019 at 06:00 PM.

  40. #240
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    JWR will be on the West Block, a one on one interview.
    The West block is on global, Sunday mornings .We saw a little of it, she still sounds very calm and measured. I really like her..

  41. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Sorry, but Trudeau is not just a figurehead any more than all the other Prime Ministers wee. He got the job the same way, by being elected party leader and then winning an election. That's the job qualification.

    What qualifications did Stephen Harper have? He worked in a mailroom and then for a lobbying firm. Yeah, rock solid credentials there. But he wasn't a figurehead because he won the office the same way that Trudeau did. Party leader -> Win election = Prime Minister.
    Trudeaus sum qualification is his surname and his father. Anybody not died in the wool liberal can spot that. he won both the Liberal leadership, and the election, primarily on that ticket.

    He's Canada's version of Bush, pun intended.

    Or alternately Clinton.

    Name has more than anything to do with him being PM.

    Its hilarious though that multiple liberal supporters in the thread here feel that Justin Trudeau has adequate qualification, experience, background, merit, for his present position. He won the Liberal ticket from a party desperate to get him to run, due to his name, and to make him leader, due to his name.

    One term is more than he, or the Liberal party deserved.
    So what do you consider to be qualifications to be Prime Minister? Not what qualities do you think they should have. What legal qualifications should be required? Under the law, the qualification for prime minister is being named to the position by the Governor General. That's it. However, they usually go with a) a member of parliament (although it's possible to name a party leader who doesn't have a seat), b) leader of the majority or party with the most seats in the case of a minority and c) a Canadian citizen at least 18 years of age (as required to be an MP.

    That's it. No "You must be 35" as in the states. So, of a, b or c, which qualification does Trudeau not have? I may nor have considered Harper a good choice for PM due to him being a skin covered lizard person but that didn't affect his qualification to be PM.
    I never once mentioned legal qualifications. I do think its risky, and unbecoming to foist party leaders on the public that are as poorly suited as Justin Trudeau. That the Liberals have leaders that are subpar, often, was one reason for their own unravelling as a federal party not too long ago. I get that going back to a Trudeau was a ploy, but there was a lot of manufactured imagery that this was Canada's Camelot. So much comparison to Kennedy's right up to Sophie being our version of Jackie. The Liberals hoped for Kennedy, but got bush league instead, again pun intended because its just too easy not to.

    Frankly I'm fine with the Liberals going to Trudeau. Because I'm not a liberal follower and it would take someone like Raybould to get me to be. (so not impossible) Trudeau offers the Cons a chance to reload. Nothing better for opposition than a one term and out government. Trudeau is being very cooperative furthering that.

    His incompetence is on display. It has been for years. No real reason to recount all the talking points. If you think he's been a good qualified Prime Minister that's helpful as well. I hope more Liberals continue to think that and still have him as their leader in the coming election.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 06:40 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  42. #242

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    But you believe that Stephen Harper who worked in the mail room at Imperial Oil and then became a lobbyist was qualified? Just trying to figure out your criteria for qualified. Seeing as the party leader gets named PM, should the public at large get a say and who the parties pick as leader, seeing as that would give us a voice in who becomes PM?

  43. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But you believe that Stephen Harper who worked in the mail room at Imperial Oil and then became a lobbyist was qualified? Just trying to figure out your criteria for qualified. Seeing as the party leader gets named PM, should the public at large get a say and who the parties pick as leader, seeing as that would give us a voice in who becomes PM?
    Stephen Harper was more qualified, and had a longer career in politics. Only a Liberal would attempt to argue otherwise.

    Harper got there of his own accord as well. Not due to his name, or who his father was. Albeit I know you think his father was Darth Vader or some green lizard.

    JT spent much of his adult life NOT wanting to go into politics. Harper spent much of his independently aspiring to it. Theres a difference in that as well.


    Trudeau is essentially some uber rich kid of Prime Minister that for decades had failure to launch stamped all over him while he went to one post secondary institution after another or living a life of leisure for DECADES. Pure privilege, pure entitlement, and he didn't even really choose politics as much as it came knocking, repeatedly, because of his surname, no other reason.

    So that we have a sophomoric slacker sandal wearing earth jesus stoner that grew up maybe around age 40. Its hard to say. Its hard to gauge maturity in born privilege.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  44. #244

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    Well the majority thought JT was more qualified than anyone else and voted for him. I guess that is how democracy works.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But you believe that Stephen Harper who worked in the mail room at Imperial Oil and then became a lobbyist was qualified? Just trying to figure out your criteria for qualified. Seeing as the party leader gets named PM, should the public at large get a say and who the parties pick as leader, seeing as that would give us a voice in who becomes PM?
    Stephen Harper was more qualified, and had a longer career in politics. Only a Liberal would attempt to argue otherwise.

    Harper got there of his own accord as well. Not due to his name, or who his father was. Albeit I know you think his father was Darth Vader or some green lizard.

    JT spent much of his adult life NOT wanting to go into politics. Harper spent much of his independently aspiring to it. Theres a difference in that as well.


    Trudeau is essentially some uber rich kid of Prime Minister that for decades had failure to launch stamped all over him while he went to one post secondary institution after another or living a life of leisure for DECADES. Pure privilege, pure entitlement, and he didn't even really choose politics as much as it came knocking, repeatedly, because of his surname, no other reason.

    So that we have a sophomoric slacker sandal wearing earth jesus stoner that grew up maybe around age 40. Its hard to say. Its hard to gauge maturity in born privilege.
    Omg, that's wonderfully said! I should forward it, to those that are still sipping the koolaid...

  46. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Well the majority thought JT was more qualified than anyone else and voted for him. I guess that is how democracy works.
    Its how reactionary politicizing can occur and especially given non representative systems. The majority DID NOT vote for Trudeau. Are you dishonest, forgetful, or purposely disingenuous?

    Politics can be subject to temporal swings. Especially in such times that people can be inattentive and react to soap box aggrandizing and virtue signalling more than paying attention to party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.

    The liberals were absolutely dead in the water prior to Trudeau, and could be again soon enough if they continue to govern with limited ethics.


    The old adage is you can fool some of the people some of the time. People who would vote for this govt a second time would deserve it. But that's unlikely to be enough for the Liberals this time around. not that they ever had anything close to plurality.

    ps yes I know your opening statement is technically accurate, but your phrasing of the sentence and purposely starting with majority is designed to be misleading.

    You have a penchant for that kind of accidental on purpose phrasing.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  47. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    ^ so Canada should be a one party state. What do you think of the modern conservative movement. Do you think it is the best we can be?
    No.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  48. #248

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    I normally agree with Conrad Black about as far as I can throw him but he brings up some points worth considering. In this case, I disagree with his idea that Canadian companies should be free to act in whatever is considered acceptable in another country, up to and including bribery. But to suggest that it never happens except in this case is looking at it with blinders on.


    Conrad Black: What people are getting wrong about this entire silly affair
    In all of the circumstances, the PM and his colleagues were justified in throwing Wilson-Raybould out of the Liberal caucus, bag and baggage

    Second, the option to Canadian prosecutors to impose a fine rather than lay a criminal charge is legitimate and sensible and the media and opposition should stop referring to it as a sleazy, partisan escape hatch for the naughty corporate friends of the Liberal party. Prosecutions are destructive, costly and not infrequently unjust. If the senior officials of our Justice ministry felt they had a legitimate legal grievance against SNC-Lavalin and some of its executives, it is more likely that a fine would be a better response than inflicting serious damage on a corporation with 10,000 Canadian employees and many thousands of shareholders, suppliers and other stakeholders.


    No one should imagine that there is any great morally cleansing aspect to a criminal prosecution in a case like this. Where a crime occurs in Canada and there are victims and a requirement for punishment and retribution for justice to be served, especially if any violence occurred, prosecutions must be pursued. But where the interests of a large number of innocent people are involved, as at SNC-Lavalin, and it is essentially an attempt to apply Canadian law to a foreign jurisdiction, a fine is much preferable to a prosecution, and even then can only be justified if there was an unnecessary recourse to distasteful business methods. This practice of the entire political opposition and media of leaping on their soapboxes and screaming for a criminal prosecution is barbaric.

    https://nationalpost.com/opinion/con...e-silly-affair



  49. #249

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    [QUOTE=Replacement;926461]
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post

    JT spent much of his adult life NOT wanting to go into politics. Harper spent much of his independently aspiring to it. Theres a difference in that as well.
    Bob Mansell would disagree with you.

    He was then recommended by the University of Calgary's economist Bob Mansell to Preston Manning, the founder and leader of the Reform Party of Canada. At that time Harper "didn't see himself as a politician", Mansell told CBC News in 2002, adding, "Politics was not his first love."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephe...cal_beginnings
    So basically Harper was a mail boy, a lobbyist and then a politician. What experience exactly was he bringing to the table? Oh, I know. He was a Reformer/Conservative and for you, that's enough.

  50. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Well the majority thought JT was more qualified than anyone else and voted for him. I guess that is how democracy works.
    Its how reactionary politicizing can occur and especially given non representative systems. The majority DID NOT vote for Trudeau. Are you dishonest, forgetful, or purposely disingenuous?

    Politics can be subject to temporal swings. Especially in such times that people can be inattentive and react to soap box aggrandizing and virtue signalling more than paying attention to party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.

    The liberals were absolutely dead in the water prior to Trudeau, and could be again soon enough if they continue to govern with limited ethics.


    The old adage is you can fool some of the people some of the time. People who would vote for this govt a second time would deserve it. But that's unlikely to be enough for the Liberals this time around. not that they ever had anything close to plurality.

    ps yes I know your opening statement is technically accurate, but your phrasing of the sentence and purposely starting with majority is designed to be misleading.

    You have a penchant for that kind of accidental on purpose phrasing.

    You know that Canada has not had a 50% majority for one party in 's long time due to having several viable parties running.

    JT got 39.5% and 184 seats
    Harper got just 31.9% and 99 seats
    That is a solid win

    party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.
    I like how you repeated the same point three times, trying to make three points when they are all the same subject.

    Keep crying in your beer that JT trounced Harper in a fair election.
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 05-04-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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  51. #251

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    ^From the same wiki to that point Harper had already been in a liberal political club in highschool and was Chief aid to an MP, already, early in his twenties, and that meeting with Preston occurred while Harper was still young, and in his mid 20's, That he's quoted as having other loves just means he had them, he had dreams, goals, ambitions. Not like the Career student, and slacker Justin Trudeau who only ever became a politician, and party leader, due to his surname, and due to his fathers accomplishments.

    As per your silly con/reformer label I'm neither. You're wrong on that too.

    I'm not even a Harper fan. But he was at least competent and qualified.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  52. #252

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    Oh I see. You prefer somebody who never managed to win a majority or even minority. That's your definition of qualified.

    Layton had some good ideas but he never managed to convince even a minority of voters that he was most qualified.

  53. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Well the majority thought JT was more qualified than anyone else and voted for him. I guess that is how democracy works.
    Its how reactionary politicizing can occur and especially given non representative systems. The majority DID NOT vote for Trudeau. Are you dishonest, forgetful, or purposely disingenuous?

    Politics can be subject to temporal swings. Especially in such times that people can be inattentive and react to soap box aggrandizing and virtue signalling more than paying attention to party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.

    The liberals were absolutely dead in the water prior to Trudeau, and could be again soon enough if they continue to govern with limited ethics.


    The old adage is you can fool some of the people some of the time. People who would vote for this govt a second time would deserve it. But that's unlikely to be enough for the Liberals this time around. not that they ever had anything close to plurality.

    ps yes I know your opening statement is technically accurate, but your phrasing of the sentence and purposely starting with majority is designed to be misleading.

    You have a penchant for that kind of accidental on purpose phrasing.

    You know that Canada has not had a 50% majority for one party in 's long time due to having several viable parties running.

    JT got 39.5% and 184 seats
    Harper got just 31.9% and 99 seats
    That is a solid win

    party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.
    I like how you repeated the same point three times, trying to make three points when they are all the same subject.

    Keep crying in your beer that JT trounced Harper in a fair election.
    Trounced? haha

    Harper had his run, and probably a longer run at Prime Minister than Trudeau will serve. Its hard to hang onto power longterm, federally, in present times. Harper was due and done.

    I wouldn't call a margin of 7% all that convincing. It does though signal a serious ongoing difficulty with our system of representation which multiple dishonest parties have failed to fix because the dynamic is the ruling party, once they are ruling, see little self benefit in ever changing our system to representative democracy. I think something we might agree on.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  54. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    Oh I see. You prefer somebody who never managed to win a majority or even minority. That's your definition of qualified.

    Layton had some good ideas but he never managed to convince even a minority of voters that he was most qualified.
    Jack Layton was the best political party leader in Canada and many parties and leaders of any stripe agree with that. That rare quantity of leader that all respected.

    In anycase this is moving goalposts. First you scorn my view on assumption I'm a neocon, which was hell wrong, and only signals a tendency of yours to jump to conclusion. No matter how false.

    Now think about how wrong you actually were. My being a past Layton supporter is about as far on the spectrum as one can get from Neocons.

    As far as Layton your view is shortsighted, his life was tragically cut short in prime of life, and who knows what he would have been able to see through to fruition. he didn't get that chance. We're all worse off for it.


    Theres a lot of reason to believe it would have been Layton, and the NDP, winning the 2015 election had he not passed away. I suspect you know that.
    Last edited by Replacement; 05-04-2019 at 10:07 PM.
    "if god exists and he allowed that to happen, then its better that he doesn't exist"

  55. #255

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    Layton would have been an interesting choice should he have had the chance to serve as PM. However, it's unlikely he would have managed that. Official opposition? Sure, he did it once. And once Layton died, the NDP was basically back to where they were before him. Essentially, the same cult of personality that you're accusing the Liberals of having with Trudeau.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    But you believe that Stephen Harper who worked in the mail room at Imperial Oil and then became a lobbyist was qualified? Just trying to figure out your criteria for qualified. Seeing as the party leader gets named PM, should the public at large get a say and who the parties pick as leader, seeing as that would give us a voice in who becomes PM?
    Stephen Harper was more qualified, and had a longer career in politics. Only a Liberal would attempt to argue otherwise.

    Harper got there of his own accord as well. Not due to his name, or who his father was. Albeit I know you think his father was Darth Vader or some green lizard.

    JT spent much of his adult life NOT wanting to go into politics. Harper spent much of his independently aspiring to it. Theres a difference in that as well.


    Trudeau is essentially some uber rich kid of Prime Minister that for decades had failure to launch stamped all over him while he went to one post secondary institution after another or living a life of leisure for DECADES. Pure privilege, pure entitlement, and he didn't even really choose politics as much as it came knocking, repeatedly, because of his surname, no other reason.

    So that we have a sophomoric slacker sandal wearing earth jesus stoner that grew up maybe around age 40. Its hard to say. Its hard to gauge maturity in born privilege.
    Brilliant post
    live for happiness because without it everything seems ho hum

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    Harper raised old age pension to 67 with aims of moving it to 70. That was a good enough reason for me not to vote for him. Work hard all your life and someone screws with our measly little pension. Trudeau promised to lower it back to 65, and he did, and that was my reason for voting for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    Harper raised old age pension to 67 with aims of moving it to 70. That was a good enough reason for me not to vote for him. Work hard all your life and someone screws with our measly little pension. Trudeau promised to lower it back to 65, and he did, and that was my reason for voting for him.
    Was it raised? I knew he was going to, slowly ( between 2023 and 2029) Because people are living longer, I can't recall all the reasons but it made sense. Other countries raised theirs .
    I think a lot of people voted for JT because he was going to make pot legal, weird thing is, the black market is flourishing..


    https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-...owing-problem/


    According to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), Canada’s decision to revert to age 65 bucks a global trend. “Many countries are increasing their retirement age,” the OECD observes in a recent pension report. Australia, Britain, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Norway, Portugal and the United States are all either gradually hiking their retirement age to 67, or have already completed the change. Three countries: Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands are in the process of making 68 their normal age of retirement.

    Last edited by H.L.; 06-04-2019 at 03:24 AM.
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    The black market is really flourishing, as much as double for some folks I’ve heard, because no one has to be afraid of walking down the street with a bag of weed in their pocket now. The govt thought they could just jump in and make a killing but the legal system is all screwed up and their quality ain’t shite. Ain’t nothin like that badass basement bud grown by “professionals”

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    They should be lowering the pension age not raising it. It was just another way for the government to screw us in the hiney plus the average lifespan has actually been going down in recent years
    Last edited by Drumbones; 06-04-2019 at 08:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    The black market is really flourishing, as much as double for some folks I’ve heard, because no one has to be afraid of walking down the street with a bag of weed in their pocket now. The govt thought they could just jump in and make a killing but the legal system is all screwed up and their quality ain’t shite. Ain’t nothin like that badass basement bud grown by “professionals”
    It's way cheaper. Pot shops( some) will be closing their doors, just wait.
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  62. #262

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    Legalization..

    Under the law I'm allowed to grow 4 small pot plants. But guess what? Legal seeds, from legal distributors cost minimum 80bucks for 4 seeds. For basically what is a weed. From a gardening perspective that would be like charging people this much for 4 dandelion heads. You'd think this was opium seeds..(heh, theres a whole other story)

    Of course, and anybody thinking this through will take this to mean they should get seeds ELSEWHERE at lower cost and wherein they could obtain any specific seed they like, but illegally, and through the kind of business that they extradited the King of pot for just not long ago.

    So now we have non benevolent govt finding one more way to make a killing, literally, and reduce life expectancy, and all the while rolling out the whole mess in such an overburdened way that there is no price competitiveness, there is no competing with the black market, there is no reduction of organized crime or illicit activity. Now we're paying too for stoned drivers, stoned testing, and any social and health care cost.
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  63. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Well the majority thought JT was more qualified than anyone else and voted for him. I guess that is how democracy works.
    Its how reactionary politicizing can occur and especially given non representative systems. The majority DID NOT vote for Trudeau. Are you dishonest, forgetful, or purposely disingenuous?

    Politics can be subject to temporal swings. Especially in such times that people can be inattentive and react to soap box aggrandizing and virtue signalling more than paying attention to party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.

    The liberals were absolutely dead in the water prior to Trudeau, and could be again soon enough if they continue to govern with limited ethics.


    The old adage is you can fool some of the people some of the time. People who would vote for this govt a second time would deserve it. But that's unlikely to be enough for the Liberals this time around. not that they ever had anything close to plurality.

    ps yes I know your opening statement is technically accurate, but your phrasing of the sentence and purposely starting with majority is designed to be misleading.

    You have a penchant for that kind of accidental on purpose phrasing.

    You know that Canada has not had a 50% majority for one party in 's long time due to having several viable parties running.

    JT got 39.5% and 184 seats
    Harper got just 31.9% and 99 seats
    That is a solid win

    party platforms, fiscal responsibility, effective use of budget, responsible spendng, etc.
    I like how you repeated the same point three times, trying to make three points when they are all the same subject.

    Keep crying in your beer that JT trounced Harper in a fair election.
    Trounced? haha

    Harper had his run, and probably a longer run at Prime Minister than Trudeau will serve. Its hard to hang onto power longterm, federally, in present times. Harper was due and done.

    I wouldn't call a margin of 7% all that convincing. It does though signal a serious ongoing difficulty with our system of representation which multiple dishonest parties have failed to fix because the dynamic is the ruling party, once they are ruling, see little self benefit in ever changing our system to representative democracy. I think something we might agree on.
    The margin was 7.6% but more importantly nearly 24% more people voted for the liberals than the conservatives.

    The SNC scandal is really a minor affair in the Liberal cabinet that got blown up because the Prime Minister would not come clean.

    People were fed up with Harper's autocratic style of governing. Proguing Parliament TWICE was just a part of the many far worse scandals of the Harper government and it is disingenuous of you to ignore the crimes that were committed.



    In and Out scandal Circumvention of election finance rules by the Conservatives in the 2006 election campaign. 2007

    Couillard Affair Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier resigned after leaving sensitive NATO documents in the home of Julie Couillard, an ex-girlfriend who used to have links to the Hells Angels. 2007

    Canadian Afghan detainee issue Parliament prorogued for the second time in a single parliament, claimed to stall an inquiry into the potential maltreatment of Afghanistan War detainees. 2010

    Robocall scandal Allegations of widespread voter fraud occurring during the 2011 Canadian federal election. Deceptive robotic and live calls were made to voters in multiple ridings, in contravention of Elections Canada rules. 2012

    ETS scandal Alleged wrongdoing by Canadian government officials in the award of a $400-million information technology services contract. 2000s

    F-35 scandal Involved misleading costs of F-35 fighter jets to replace former CF-18s. In May 2010 Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay told the Commons that Canada would buy the F-35. Ninety minutes later, he said he misspoke and announced there will be an open competition with all aircraft considered. Six weeks later, ignoring what he previously said, MacKay announced that Canada will purchase 65 F-35s. Prime Minister Stephen Harper was found to be in contempt of parliament for refusing to share information on the procurement. 2012


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...dals_in_Canada
    Last edited by Edmonton PRT; 06-04-2019 at 06:38 AM.
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  64. #264

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    Why “more importantly”?

    Our elections are based on aggregate popular vote of a pool of candidates. Most important is the popular vote within each constituency for a specific representative for that constituency.

  65. #265

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    EDITORIAL: Trudeau’s trouble with whistleblowers – Toronto Sun

    “If you think of Wilson-Raybould as someone who just has a disagreement with the PM or as some sort of maverick MP, you might be inclined to see this whole affair as a “she said, he said”. You may think there is some kind of moral equivalence in the dueling positions of the two.

    That dynamic changes though when you think of the former Attorney General as a whistleblower, which is exactly what she is.
    ...”


    “Then there is the recent Postmedia report that the government tried to find out who leaked the news of the $10.5 million payout to Omar Khadr, presumably so they could punish the whistleblower.”...


    https://torontosun.com/opinion/edito...whistleblowers





    Mostly a deflecting whataboutism opinion piece but still mildly interesting:

    WARREN: Worst part of the Lavalin mess is Tories’ response | Toronto Sun

    https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...tives-response
    Last edited by KC; 06-04-2019 at 10:39 PM.

  66. #266

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    Liberal smears of Wilson-Raybould a disgrace

    https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...uld-a-disgrace

  67. #267

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    Trudeau threatens Scheer with lawsuit over SNC-Lavalin comments

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...ents-1.5088175
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    Omg, We just saw JT wants to shut the opposition up.. Oh I hope this ends up in court, JT is such an egomaniac, and he'd be under oath. Bring it on!
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  69. #269

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    I guess that you did not read the article.

    Notably that Stephen Harper launched a $3.5-million libel lawsuit against the Liberal party in May 2005. and in 1998, Jean Chrétien threatened to sue Reform Party Leader Preston Manning.
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    We watched part of QP on CTV, at the end( and we all know it's recorded) they said SNC should slow down now, unless JT says something more, and he did!..lol
    SNC, the gift that keeps on giving...
    His polling numbers are terrible..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau threatens Scheer with lawsuit over SNC-Lavalin comments

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...ents-1.5088175
    you did have to love the response though:

    "...Mr. Scheer looks forward to obtaining the Prime Minister's evidence under oath and having this matter heard in open court..."
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  72. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Trudeau threatens Scheer with lawsuit over SNC-Lavalin comments

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...ents-1.5088175
    No surprise, given that Justin Trudeau has publicly stated how much he admires the governance of China and Fidel Castro. He is just doing what Xi or Castro would do if they were in his situation.

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    You mean his dad fidel

  74. #274

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    Conspiracy much?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Conspiracy much?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    You mean his dad fidel
    fidel might be his spiritual god-father but the odds of his being his real father are pretty much slim to none. justin's blue eyes pretty much rule it out as even a genetic possibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    You mean his dad fidel

    LOL!
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  77. #277

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    kcantor, let the JT bashers play in the muck. Pretty funny to see their hypocrisy fully exposed when they are such fervent Trump supporters and are totally silent when he praises Xi, Putin, Duterte, Erdogan, el-Sisi, MDS, Kim Jong Un and even Saddam Hussein. He has defended, amid allegations of sexual misconduct or physical or sexual assault; Kavanaugh, Rob Porter, Roy Moore, Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly, and Corey Lewandowski amongst others
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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    You mean his dad fidel

    LOL!
    Eta. I thought it was Mick Jagger, until I saw JTs rhythm, or lack of..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Conspiracy much?
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbones View Post
    You mean his dad fidel
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    kcantor, let the JT bashers play in the muck. Pretty funny to see their hypocrisy fully exposed when they are such fervent Trump supporters and are totally silent when he praises Xi, Putin, Duterte, Erdogan, el-Sisi, MDS, Kim Jong Un and even Saddam Hussein. He has defended, amid allegations of sexual misconduct or physical or sexual assault; Kavanaugh, Rob Porter, Roy Moore, Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly, and Corey Lewandowski amongst others
    while i'm happy not to be considered a jt basher playing in the muck, that doesn't make me a fan. from his sunny ways to budgets balancing themselves to his adoration of fidel castro and mis-guided thought on china while totally misconstruing how to deal with the middle kingdom (and india and the us et al) along with similar miscalculations at home on everything from the f-35 to jwr and holidays with the aga khan, he makes it very easy to criticize his lack of expertise and of judgement while maintaining the high road (boy wonder references notwithstanding ).

    ps. kkozoriz - no need to jump in with two pages of what aboutism.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  80. #280

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    Totally agree kcantor but you also forgot his endlessly embarrassing India trip



    But even after all this, still feel proud to be a Canadian, and when I travel to the US, I get apologies from Americans about their even more embarrassing Bozo President.
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  81. #281

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    Wilson-Raybould's intentions might not be completely righteous. And?: Robyn Urback | CBC News

    Excerpt:

    “Wilson-Raybould could very well be the most conniving player in the game, but that would still have no bearing on whether the prime minister and his office tried to interfere in the justice system for partisan, political interests. That's what matters most here.

    There's more to this story that we still don't know, but Trudeau's reluctance to extend the waiver of confidentiality to allow Wilson-Raybould to speak about her time after she left the Justice Ministry leaves us to infer. It also plays straight into Wilson-Raybould's hand by making it look like the prime minister has something deeply problematic to hide. But perhaps from the PMO's perspective, that impression is less damaging than whatever she has to say.”



    https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/wils...-snc-1.5078948

  82. #282

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    Liberals say lawsuit threat needed to stop Scheer's 'misinformation' on SNC-Lavalin
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/libe...alin-1.4371206
    Liberals are defending Justin Trudeau's threatened libel suit against Andrew Scheer, arguing that the Conservative leader's editing or deleting online statements proves he knows he's gone too far in criticizing the prime minister's handling of the SNC-Lavalin affair.

    "The leader of the Opposition pretends that he will not back down and he tries to make a show out of it," Government House leader Bardish Chagger told the House of Commons on Monday. "We know that is false because while he is saying that, he has already been editing online statements or erasing them entirely."
    Scheer denied having edited or deleted any posts on Twitter.


    "No, I have not deleted tweets because I stand by everything I said in those statements," he said.


    But Chagger pointed to a tweet Scheer posted on March 31, the same day he received Porter's letter. Originally, it referred to Trudeau telling "lies" about not knowing about a conversation the clerk of the Privy Council, Michael Wernick, had with Wilson-Raybould on Dec. 19. The tweet was later deleted and a new one posted, she said, to replace the word "lies" with "falsehoods."
    So who is lying now?
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  83. #283

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Liberals say lawsuit threat needed to stop Scheer's 'misinformation' on SNC-Lavalin
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/libe...alin-1.4371206
    Liberals are defending Justin Trudeau's threatened libel suit against Andrew Scheer, arguing that the Conservative leader's editing or deleting online statements proves he knows he's gone too far in criticizing the prime minister's handling of the SNC-Lavalin affair.

    "The leader of the Opposition pretends that he will not back down and he tries to make a show out of it," Government House leader Bardish Chagger told the House of Commons on Monday. "We know that is false because while he is saying that, he has already been editing online statements or erasing them entirely."
    Scheer denied having edited or deleted any posts on Twitter.


    "No, I have not deleted tweets because I stand by everything I said in those statements," he said.


    But Chagger pointed to a tweet Scheer posted on March 31, the same day he received Porter's letter. Originally, it referred to Trudeau telling "lies" about not knowing about a conversation the clerk of the Privy Council, Michael Wernick, had with Wilson-Raybould on Dec. 19. The tweet was later deleted and a new one posted, she said, to replace the word "lies" with "falsehoods."
    So who is lying now?
    Everyone?

  84. #284

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    Yup. Well said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Liberals say lawsuit threat needed to stop Scheer's 'misinformation' on SNC-Lavalin
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/libe...alin-1.4371206
    Liberals are defending Justin Trudeau's threatened libel suit against Andrew Scheer, arguing that the Conservative leader's editing or deleting online statements proves he knows he's gone too far in criticizing the prime minister's handling of the SNC-Lavalin affair.

    "The leader of the Opposition pretends that he will not back down and he tries to make a show out of it," Government House leader Bardish Chagger told the House of Commons on Monday. "We know that is false because while he is saying that, he has already been editing online statements or erasing them entirely."
    Scheer denied having edited or deleted any posts on Twitter.


    "No, I have not deleted tweets because I stand by everything I said in those statements," he said.


    But Chagger pointed to a tweet Scheer posted on March 31, the same day he received Porter's letter. Originally, it referred to Trudeau telling "lies" about not knowing about a conversation the clerk of the Privy Council, Michael Wernick, had with Wilson-Raybould on Dec. 19. The tweet was later deleted and a new one posted, she said, to replace the word "lies" with "falsehoods."
    So who is lying now?
    interesting question...

    on the other hand, does our having subsequently edited any of our posts - to any degree for any reason at any time - make us all liars as well?
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  86. #286

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    If you claim you didn't edit it but you did to avoid a legal implication while at the same time you are stating the other side lied.

    Then yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    If you claim you didn't edit it but you did to avoid a legal implication while at the same time you are stating the other side lied.

    Then yes.
    given the definition of lie is a falsehood while the definition of falsehood is a lie, i'm not sure how substituting one for the other can somehow be taken as an attempt or effort to avoid a legal implication.

    and i haven't seen any statements saying that it wasn't edited, only that it wasn't deleted.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  88. #288

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    If you claim you didn't edit it but you did to avoid a legal implication while at the same time you are stating the other side lied.

    Then yes.
    given the definition of lie is a falsehood while the definition of falsehood is a lie, i'm not sure how substituting one for the other can somehow be taken as an attempt or effort to avoid a legal implication.

    and i haven't seen any statements saying that it wasn't edited, only that it wasn't deleted.
    From the article posted:


    But Chagger pointed to a tweet Scheer posted on March 31, the same day he received Porter's letter. Originally, it referred to Trudeau telling "lies" about not knowing about a conversation the clerk of the Privy Council, Michael Wernick, had with Wilson-Raybould on Dec. 19. The tweet was later deleted and a new one posted, she said, to replace the word "lies" with "falsehoods."

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    Liberals say lawsuit threat needed to stop Scheer's 'misinformation' on SNC-Lavalin
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/libe...alin-1.4371206
    Liberals are defending Justin Trudeau's threatened libel suit against Andrew Scheer, arguing that the Conservative leader's editing or deleting online statements proves he knows he's gone too far in criticizing the prime minister's handling of the SNC-Lavalin affair.

    "The leader of the Opposition pretends that he will not back down and he tries to make a show out of it," Government House leader Bardish Chagger told the House of Commons on Monday. "We know that is false because while he is saying that, he has already been editing online statements or erasing them entirely."
    Scheer denied having edited or deleted any posts on Twitter.


    "No, I have not deleted tweets because I stand by everything I said in those statements," he said.


    But Chagger pointed to a tweet Scheer posted on March 31, the same day he received Porter's letter. Originally, it referred to Trudeau telling "lies" about not knowing about a conversation the clerk of the Privy Council, Michael Wernick, had with Wilson-Raybould on Dec. 19. The tweet was later deleted and a new one posted, she said, to replace the word "lies" with "falsehoods."
    So who is lying now?
    Everyone?
    JT ran away, because it's not about tweets, it's about our lying PM

    PS. Chagger said he edited his tweets, until someone informed her , no edit button on twitter, it was hilarious. Scheer called JTs bluff and like the little boy he is, he took a personal day..awww.
    Rofl...
    I'm betting Scheer will want to go to court, JT, under oath? No way..
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    ^

    bold the whole statement - it's not including "to replace the word lies with falsehoods" that changes the implication of the action from editing to deleting.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    I'm ready for court! I love the law. I'm thinking JT will back right off. My goodness, SNC, the gift that keeps on giving.
    JT, who ever is advising you now, please keep them..lol!
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  92. #292

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    By deleting the original tweet, he's hoping to prevent it being shown that it was ever said in the first place. He could have issued a second tweet saying, "The word lies was used in error and should have stated falsehoods. I apologize for the error.". That's how you'd edit on Twitter. Not by playing "I never said that, just loot a my tweet stream and see if you can find it".

  93. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by H.L. View Post
    I'm ready for court! I love the law. I'm thinking JT will back right off. My goodness, SNC, the gift that keeps on giving.
    JT, who ever is advising you now, please keep them..lol!
    Really? Even though it's the court that stopped the pipelines and ordered more consultation and environmental assessment?

    Wow, who knew?

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    The courts didn't kill Energy East, Northern Gateway, either directly or through onerous laws Justin did.

  95. #295

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    No, Trans-Canada killed Energy East

    TransCanada Announces Termination of Energy East Pipeline and Eastern Mainline Projects


    CALGARY, ALBERTA--(Marketwired - Oct. 5, 2017) - News Release - TransCanada Corporation (TSX:TRP) (NYSE:TRP) (TransCanada) announced today it will no longer be proceeding with its proposed Energy East Pipeline and Eastern Mainline projects.


    Following is a statement from TransCanada President and Chief Executive Officer Russ Girling:


    After careful review of changed circumstances, we will be informing the National Energy Board that we will no longer be proceeding with our Energy East and Eastern Mainline applications. TransCanada will also notify Quebec's Ministère du Developpement durable, de l'Environnement, et Lutte contre les changements climatiques that it is withdrawing the Energy East project from the environmental review process.

    http://www.marketwired.com/press-rel...rp-2236161.htm
    And

    Tories deny responsibility for 'critical' Trans Mountain mistake made under Stephen Harper's watch

    The Trans Mountain expansion is now facing uncertainty in the wake of the ruling which has brought construction to a halt, until the government addresses the mistakes outlined in the unanimous court ruling, signed by Justice Eleanor Dawson.


    Dawson wrote that the Trudeau government was given "flawed" recommendations by the National Energy Board (NEB), which had been tasked by the Harper government to review the pipeline expansion. Dawson wrote that the NEB made a “critical error” when it decided not to include tanker traffic, a move the court said sparked a chain reaction of “unacceptable deficiencies" that tainted the NEB’s final report.


    The NEB, which says it operates at arms length from the government, took that so-called “scoping” decision on April 2, 2014, during the 2011-2015 majority government of former Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper. The review was done under rules that were changed by a major overhaul of Canada's environmental laws by the Harper government in 2012.


    Several critics, including federal Liberals while in opposition, had warned that the process and rules set up by Harper were biased and damaging public confidence in the approval of major projects.

    https://www.nationalobserver.com/201...-under-stephen
    Harper tied to loosen the rules, the courts slapped them down.
    Last edited by kkozoriz; 14-04-2019 at 06:47 PM.

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    Trans-Canada killed it why? Because of the uncertain laws and approval process, Bill C-48, C-69. All created by Justin

  97. #297

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    C-48 is a tanker ban in northern BC. Energy East was going, wait for it, east. Unless the tankers were going to go from St. John through the Arctic, C-48 has nothing to do with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkozoriz View Post
    C-48 is a tanker ban in northern BC. Energy East was going, wait for it, east. Unless the tankers were going to go from St. John through the Arctic, C-48 has nothing to do with it.
    st.john through the arctic might actually have been more achievable than getting from one side of quebec to the other. or at least getting from one side of quebec to the other going from west to east. going from east to west they don't seem to have any issue with either pipelines or tankers.
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  99. #299

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    The big complaint is that it was a bitumen pipeline. Harder to clean up spills, especially in water. Upgrade it here, allow the refineries along the route to tap into it and you'd see a lot less opposition. Of course, you'd still have to deal with the increased taker traffic, threats of spills and danger to the marine life in the Bay of Fundy. But at least it could be sold as Canadians buying a Canadian product.

    Much easier to insist that it's for export and unusable by most people along the route. That'll convince them to support it.

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    I hope both Philpott and Wilson-Raybould win
    https://globalnews.ca/video/5324028/...deral-election

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