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Thread: Edmonton Hot Springs

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    Default Edmonton Hot Springs

    The idea that came up in a recent thread was building a hot-water pool for the winter in Edmonton, which turned into a discussion of creating a local artificially-created hot springs.

    Most hot springs (such as the one in Radium) are formed due to ground water running inside the Earth's interior and flowing out into a pool. Certainly a man-made natural solution could be done if the cost is not too high.

    The Rossdale water treatment plant could be utilized to produce something like this as well, another attraction to a redeveloped power plant site.

    Another ideal location for an Edmonton Hot Springs would be at the bottom of the ski hill near the Muttart.

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    The existing ravine and river valley pools come to mind.

    For those who saw this conversation start in the other thread, I'll respond here to try to keep the other thread on topic.

    1 - No, I certainly am not joking.

    2 - Yes, it is energy intensive, and energy well-spent in my estimation. We can't have a committee decision on how to save energy. Today I have all my laundry drying in the back yard. I'm doing my bit, and we should not stand in the way of something just because it uses energy that makes someone else feel enviro-guilt.

    3- If we want to use geothermal closed loop or solar collection to heat the thing, then fine, but I do think people need to recognise that if Edmonton is worth enjoying in all 4 seasons, then there will be fewer flights to vegas. The energy savings there alone would probably outpace what it takes to warm the water even using coal-generated electricity.

    So, how about it?
    City Centre Airport is to the sky as False Creek is to the ocean.

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    Like I pointed out in the other thread, powerplants are an excellent source of large amounts of low level waste heat and would be perfect for an "artificial hotsprings". If the Rossdale plant was upgraded to a modern high efficiency combined cycle plant and at least one unit was in operation at all times an outdoor hottub could be operated in that area essentially for free. If that doesn't happen, there's always the coal fired plants at Wabamun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    Like I pointed out in the other thread, powerplants are an excellent source of large amounts of low level waste heat and would be perfect for an "artificial hotsprings". If the Rossdale plant was upgraded to a modern high efficiency combined cycle plant and at least one unit was in operation at all times an outdoor hottub could be operated in that area essentially for free. If that doesn't happen, there's always the coal fired plants at Wabamun.
    Boy, isn't this exactly what everyone wants... to sit in hotsprings right next to power plants or water treatment facilities.

    I think my sarcasm meter just exploded...









    ******
    Oh, as a general aside (not meant as a direct comment to Titanium4: I believe too many people use the phrase "high efficiency" way too frequently, often to the point of irrelevance. High efficiency need not necessarily mean low or reduced energy usage. If we want to artificially raise the temperature of water from and to certain temperatures, X amount of energy will always be required to do so. We cannot NOT adhere to the laws of thermodynamics... It is what it is and there's a cost associated with it, regardless of how "efficient" pieces of equipment used in the process are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude
    Boy, isn't this exactly what everyone wants... to sit in hotsprings right next to power plants or water treatment facilities.
    I've heard it's quite popular with the geothermal plants in Iceland.


    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude
    ******
    Oh, as a general aside (not meant as a direct comment to Titanium4: I believe too many people use the phrase "high efficiency" way too frequently, often to the point of irrelevance. High efficiency need not necessarily mean low or reduced energy usage. If we want to artificially raise the temperature of water from and to certain temperatures, X amount of energy will always be required to do so. We cannot NOT adhere to the laws of thermodynamics... It is what it is and there's a cost associated with it, regardless of how "efficient" pieces of equipment used in the process are.
    I agree with the overuse of the term "high efficiency", so perhaps a bit of clarification is in order. The existing rankine cycle turbines at the Rossdale plant convert heat energy (produced when natural gas is burned) into electricity with an efficiency of 40-45%. The rest of the energy stays in the form of heat. A modern combined cycle facility will have an efficiency of around 60%, so it will produce 50% more electricity from the same amount of natural gas. Even so, 40% of the energy liberated when the natural gas is burned ends up as waste heat, at just about the right temperature for a hot tub but not hot enough for much else. The current setup just dumps all of that heat into the river, which had the effect of keeping the river ice-free from the powerplant to some point downstream of the low level bridge when the plant was operating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    I agree with the overuse of the term "high efficiency", so perhaps a bit of clarification is in order. The existing rankine cycle turbines at the Rossdale plant convert heat energy (produced when natural gas is burned) into electricity with an efficiency of 40-45%. The rest of the energy stays in the form of heat. A modern combined cycle facility will have an efficiency of around 60%, so it will produce 50% more electricity from the same amount of natural gas. Even so, 40% of the energy liberated when the natural gas is burned ends up as waste heat, at just about the right temperature for a hot tub but not hot enough for much else. The current setup just dumps all of that heat into the river, which had the effect of keeping the river ice-free from the powerplant to some point downstream of the low level bridge when the plant was operating.
    I like these numbers... What makes them more realistic is that they are closer to the 50% than the 100% level that many seem to think is realistic in most if not all cases.

    When did the public become confused? To produce anything from anything, there is a process in place to do that with typically lots of equipment in between all operating at less than 100% efficiency.

    If there's no other way to utilize the heat then I suppose it would be fine to use that waste heat for hotsprings. I still can't really fathom these hotsprings being overly popular by a power plant though. Maybe I'm wrong, but if there were way to cost-effectively distribute this heat to a location that were more attractive, by all means...

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    Instead of burning something, how about just looking at a geothermal option - like mother nature did. If I am supposed to believe that geothermal energy can produce steam for electricity....

    I dunno, just a thougt...
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude
    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    I agree with the overuse of the term "high efficiency", so perhaps a bit of clarification is in order. The existing rankine cycle turbines at the Rossdale plant convert heat energy (produced when natural gas is burned) into electricity with an efficiency of 40-45%. The rest of the energy stays in the form of heat. A modern combined cycle facility will have an efficiency of around 60%, so it will produce 50% more electricity from the same amount of natural gas. Even so, 40% of the energy liberated when the natural gas is burned ends up as waste heat, at just about the right temperature for a hot tub but not hot enough for much else. The current setup just dumps all of that heat into the river, which had the effect of keeping the river ice-free from the powerplant to some point downstream of the low level bridge when the plant was operating.
    I like these numbers... What makes them more realistic is that they are closer to the 50% than the 100% level that many seem to think is realistic in most if not all cases.

    When did the public become confused? To produce anything from anything, there is a process in place to do that with typically lots of equipment in between all operating at less than 100% efficiency.

    If there's no other way to utilize the heat then I suppose it would be fine to use that waste heat for hotsprings. I still can't really fathom these hotsprings being overly popular by a power plant though. Maybe I'm wrong, but if there were way to cost-effectively distribute this heat to a location that were more attractive, by all means...
    All this assumes that the rossdale plant runs more than a 100 hours are year...it does NOT. It is a last resort peak demand generating station only.
    EPCOR has a report about Rossdale on their website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    Instead of burning something, how about just looking at a geothermal option - like mother nature did. If I am supposed to believe that geothermal energy can produce steam for electricity....

    I dunno, just a thougt...

    Unless I'm seriously misguided, I don't think we have the type of geothermal heat we'd need for hotsprings in the immediate Edmonton area. That's the real problem. If I'm not mistaken, hot springs tend to occur around geologically active areas (mountain ranges, fault lines, etc which Edmonton is lacking.

    We could use geothermal heat only to a point. My guess is that we could use it, but we'd likely only be able to heat the water to a pretty tepid temperature. I think it may be fairly difficult to extract the heat necessary to produce hotsprings one a reasonably large scale. I'm aware that some industrial facilities use underground salt caverns to produce brine water (e.g. Dow). Maybe we could get a temperature estimate of the return water from a cavern like the one used at Dow. 10C, 25C, 50C? Anyone?

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    In regard to the location: don't forget that the Rossdale power plant is being decommissioned in the next couple of years and is slated for redevelopment after that. Whatever is built there....cultural institutions, retail/restaurant boardwalk, school/office space, river valley attractions....a hot springs produced by the existing power and water treatment technology could be another attraction to the redeveloped site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC
    All this assumes that the rossdale plant runs more than a 100 hours are year...it does NOT. It is a last resort peak demand generating station only.
    EPCOR has a report about Rossdale on their website.
    The Rossdale plant is hardly used because it is one of the most expensive plants to operate. A higher efficiency plant would have correspondingly lower operating costs and would be used much more often. I believe Epcor wanted to do this at some point but the plans were changed.

    If the plans to permanently decomission the Rossdale plant go ahead and people want an artificial hotsprings downtown there is still the possibility of cogeneration - install a gas turbine just big enough so that it's waste heat can heat the pool. It would use about twice as much gas as a simple gas fired heater, but all of that extra energy input would come out in the form of electricity.

    As for geothermal heating, it would be possible. The temperature rises about 20°C for every kilometer you go below the surface. The ground temperature is about 5°C near the surface, so a borehole 2-3 km deep would be needed. It would need an insulated casing and return line so that heat is not lost near the surface. It might also need to be very large (or there might need to be many of them) to be able to heat a sufficient amount of water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude


    Unless I'm seriously misguided, I don't think we have the type of geothermal heat we'd need for hotsprings in the immediate Edmonton area. That's the real problem. If I'm not mistaken, hot springs tend to occur around geologically active areas (mountain ranges, fault lines, etc which Edmonton is lacking.
    But..again..if I am to believe that there is this amazing untapped geothermal resource to power steam turbines and heat office complexes and homes, well....

    Yes, I am taking a bit of a shot at the geothermal dreamers, but the question begs an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48
    As for geothermal heating, it would be possible. The temperature rises about 20°C for every kilometer you go below the surface. The ground temperature is about 5°C near the surface, so a borehole 2-3 km deep would be needed. It would need an insulated casing and return line so that heat is not lost near the surface. It might also need to be very large (or there might need to be many of them) to be able to heat a sufficient amount of water.
    OK, so the possibility exists, but how would this cost to just burning....
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS

    OK, so the possibility exists, but how would this cost to just burning....
    No idea. Maybe somebody better acquainted with the drilling industry could clue us in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    But..again..if I am to believe that there is this amazing untapped geothermal resource to power steam turbines and heat office complexes and homes, well....

    Yes, I am taking a bit of a shot at the geothermal dreamers, but the question begs an answer.
    RichardS, I think you may be confusing Geothermal Heat Pumps (what is used around these parts to heat and cool individual buildings) and Geothermal Steam Power (what is used in places like Iceland and Northern California to generate electricity). Despite both using the term geothermal in their names, they are actually quite different processes.

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    No, not confusing...I'm from the thermal generation world and *gasp* familiar with coal plants...

    I am just poking a bit here. I'm supposed to beleive the many eco-zealots I find with some of their "outlandish" hypothesis, so I was just musing...

    Sorry to derail.
    Since calm logic doesn't work, I guess it is time to employ sarcasm. ...and before you call me an a-hole...remember, I am a Dick.

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    Really sorry to resurrect this ancient thread, but there's a good reason for it.

    We now have this Winter City Strategy thing, there's Make Something Edmonton, and our recent discussion of using heat waste for heated sidewalks.

    Time to explore this idea once more.
    How about turning the new Queen Elizabeth pool into a hot springs for the winter?
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    I'd be down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Really sorry to resurrect this ancient thread, but there's a good reason for it.

    We now have this Winter City Strategy thing, there's Make Something Edmonton, and our recent discussion of using heat waste for heated sidewalks.

    Time to explore this idea once more.
    How about turning the new Queen Elizabeth pool into a hot springs for the winter?
    Very 'cool' idea! Solar capabilities might now be more advanced and cost effective to to supplement heating needs.

    Why are you apologetic for resurrecting it? I'm glad you did. Today's user group isn't necessarily yesterday's user group. Fresh new views might now be expressed by people that weren't on c2e back in 2007 and I doubt many dig through the 'archives' reading old threads. The internet was supposed to free information from its old technological constraints and it limitations due to old preconceived notions on how it was presented. Also, not everything has to be top down with a following developing only after officials or "powers that be" give a concept their blessing or the official media 'print' a story on it.

    May someday all knowledge be hyperlinked (or hash tagged due to technology/creativity limitations).



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    Last edited by KC; 19-12-2013 at 07:53 AM.

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    The old Queen E Pool site would have been perfect for this. Surrounded by trees, great view of the river/downtown, etc. basically a quiet oasis in the middle of the city.

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    When I 1st saw the thread title I thought there are hot springs in Edmonton ... cool. But alas nope, there are only some springs like the one in Gold Bar Park. But why not use some of the waste heat to make a hot spring or pool. In the past a portion of Lake Wabamun never froze because of the Trans-Alta plant, no reason why we couldn't use some hot water from a refinery or power plant to heat an outdoor pool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    The old Queen E Pool site would have been perfect for this. Surrounded by trees, great view of the river/downtown, etc. basically a quiet oasis in the middle of the city.
    Bingo!

    I would be there weekly.
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    I won't be there, because kids, but otherwise? Absolutely.
    We have all the old pools for lessons, new rec centres for kids, why not build a leisure centre for the growing populations of adults?

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I won't be there, because kids, but otherwise? Absolutely.
    We have all the old pools for lessons, new rec centres for kids, why not build a leisure centre for the growing populations of adults?
    I believe they're called bathhouses. By all accounts they provide copious leisure acctivities for certain demographics? I'm sure a few of the regulars on here could fill you in on the details.
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    Adults sometimes watch movies that aren't "adult" films. They have been know to go to Vegas but not gamble.
    Sometimes they even drink non-alcoholic beverages.

    And I think that lots of them would enjoy a hot-springs spa more if it weren't swarming with kids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by expat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I won't be there, because kids, but otherwise? Absolutely.
    We have all the old pools for lessons, new rec centres for kids, why not build a leisure centre for the growing populations of adults?
    I believe they're called bathhouses. By all accounts they provide copious leisure acctivities for certain demographics? I'm sure a few of the regulars on here could fill you in on the details.
    It's called a sauna. Like the Finns do it - in groups, naked, and roll around in the snow. Not rocket science.

    I like the idea of a public or private mineral spa. Even Moose Jaw has one.
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    ^ A mens Turkish bath would be AMAZING....





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    ^ To each their own I suppose. Leisure activities I can't do with my (heterosexual) significant other have little appeal for me, and I much prefer the hot water + cold air mix of an outdoor hot pool to any sort of indoor facility.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Adults sometimes watch movies that aren't "adult" films. They have been know to go to Vegas but not gamble.
    Sometimes they even drink non-alcoholic beverages.

    And I think that lots of them would enjoy a hot-springs spa more if it weren't swarming with kids.
    The standard variable depth approach usually works fairly well at keeping the kids in the shallow end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium48 View Post
    ^ To each their own I suppose. Leisure activities I can't do with my (heterosexual) significant other have little appeal for me, and I much prefer the hot water + cold air mix of an outdoor hot pool to any sort of indoor facility.

    The standard variable depth approach usually works fairly well at keeping the kids in the shallow end.


    I am with you on this one. Hot mineral water plus clean crisp cold air from the river valley, snow falling on my head while the rest of me is warm and variable depth *PLUS* lots and lots of places to sit. And you've got yourself one hell of a draw both locally and touristy especially if it is quite large.

    Hell amongst friends and family we could probably put 30 people in a place like that 2 times a week. The elderly would be allllll over it (especially with a good bus route). Folks my age (20-35) would be flocking there in droves. And families of all ages.

    Winter is long and cold and A place that was exposed to the outdoors but you could be very warm would have a huge huge draw. Especially if you had a good view associated with that.

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    Exactly!
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    One need only look as far as the Delta Kananaskis as an example. Indoor/outdoor hot tub. Indoor is almost completely enclosed, save for a maybe 2ft gap in the wall over which an air curtain operates. Inside, nice and warm, swimming pool, change rooms, etc. Outside, cold mountain air, separate sauna, plenty of places to jump out of the hot tub and roll around in the snow before heading back in. It's pretty glorious after a long day of snowboarding actually. At least after 9pm or whenever they kick out all the kids who are just dumping snow into the hot water and splashing around.

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    If a lot of people think this is a good idea, why not form an investor consortium and explore it? Ideally a drilling company should be involved, as I am guessing some sort of geothermal system will be needed.

    I guess to get started, perhaps a web site of the concept, them an Edmonton journal article based on the idea. Maybe the city could even be brought on board, Edmonton IMO would greatly benefit from an attraction like this.
    Last edited by moahunter; 28-12-2013 at 12:22 PM.

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    Anything that get makes us forget that's -20 outside is good.
    -20 degree weather makes my house feel like a prison.
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    I'd skip geothermal, this place would have a huge heating load, and no cooling.
    How about location? I can't think of any prime locations that are not parkland in the river valley.

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    ^it could be the anchor attraction that Rosedale needs then I guess, needing a big natural gas boiler then? I agree in the river valley somewhere, even hawerlak, might be nice after a skate.

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    rossdale, hawrelak, kinsman would be perfect as well, or on/near the hill in blatchford for a view of downtown. Personally Kinsman would be my fav, the view is incredible. Close second would be Blatchford, followed very closely by a tie between hawrelak and rossdale. Honestly though I think the city could support 2 such facilities. One in blatchford which with it's big hill, canal/lake and view of downtown be an amazing spot for one. And either rossdale or kinsman as the other spot. People from the south side would be more likely to go to a kinsma/rossdale/hawrelak park one and people north side would be more likely to go to blatchford. Each spot would have stunning and unique views and you would have variability for people to go to a facility they liked more. Especially with some very big design differences. Blatchford has the added bonus of LRT which would help draw people especially in the winter. I know I would rather use LRT to get to a sports facility or a hot springs because I hate working out and then sitting in my freezing car (that's why I use the gym at my gf's place). Get out of the hot springs and jump on a warm train, why yes please. If Blatchford set the hot springs up with a community aquatic centre/excercise facility (50M pool please) that would be absolutely fantastic if there was quick easy access to LRT and especially fantastic with some sort of warm path to the LRT so that when you are wet from the pool/hot spring or shower or just sweaty you don't freeze your pants off!! Kinsman has tonnes of parking lots of great facilities already that this would just work perfectly there plus an absolutely stunning view of the leg, new walterdale bridge, and rossdale reworking. Hawrelak seems the odd duckling but would work better as a back to nature style hot spring. Say if you used river rock as benches with natural features versus a tile pool. That would give it a very 'in nature' sort of vibe and a very cool atmosphere. People could go there to "get away" from the hustle and bustle of the city and just sit in a warm pool. Rossdale is an unknown as there hasn't been any development there yet and very few concrete plans. It has loads of potential though!

    Geotherm could work if you drilled deep enough use a closed loop system to heat the water.
    An alternative to get a large amount of hot water you could use a turbine gas engine like a GE LM1500, use that to generate power for the facility and then some (think the lm1500 are 8MW?). Local power plus lots of what water produced.

    I don't know how effective boilers would be on their own. That's a pretty inefficient way of doing that. But co-gen, or biomass with co-gen or something similar would be the way to do it in my eyes if not doing geotherm. Less waste, less pollution. The last thing you want to be doing is set up something like this and just burn through fuel like it's nobodies business and generate a tonne of green house gases and wasted heat energy with really low efficiency.
    Last edited by IdriveaSubaru; 28-12-2013 at 03:08 PM.

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    How about at the Edmonton Ski Club? Hot tubs are great after a day of skiing.
    Imagine soaking in a hot infinity pool nestled on the side of the hill with an outstanding view of Edmonton's skyline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasH View Post
    How about at the Edmonton Ski Club? Hot tubs are great after a day of skiing.
    Imagine soaking in a hot infinity pool nestled on the side of the hill with an outstanding view of Edmonton's skyline.

    ooo that's good idea, muttart close by, great view of the river valley close to the lrt, and yes the skiing too!

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    I'm at the ski club right now, and I agree it's a good location. Plus, the ski club facilities are very run down, and I see a drawing of a proposed new lodge hanging on the wall. There could be some good synergies here. It would probably be a good place for reasonable cost construction, compared to so more remote parkland locations, because the site is flat and there are already services here. You would probably save 100,000 on servicing and 250,000+++ on foundations vs a remote, hillside location.

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    It's a super idea, and perhaps some recreation grant funding or lotto funding and it would be a go!

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    The only way the Leg. would kick in is if they made the reflecting pool into a giant hot tub for the fat cats there. A few hot pex lines thru there and presto. Haha. Cold sit a lot of people.

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    I was thinking about this the other day. I think the best location would be goldbar park. Right in the park, surrounded by trees. It's a very popular x-country ski destination (there are races there occasionally), and x-country skiing and hot pools go together well. There also happens to be a huge source of free heat just up the hill at the cooling pools of the Strathcona refinery. There lots of places in the park where sightlines hide the refinery. It's also pretty secluded from homes.

    Build it similar to the hot springs pools that are common in Iceland. Different temperature pools. Rent out space for spa services. Bistro or restaurant for food. Maybe even a meeting space large enough for wedding receptions. Would be very scenic with reflecting pools, steam, and snow covered surrounding forest.

    The heat is available throughout the year. Shutdowns are planned for and the pools can be closed (or unheated) during that time.

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    Just back from Iceland and while there are a few differences to consider, we really should have some outdoor hot pools during the winter.

    Hawrelak Park - one at the skate lodge

    QE pool - a large tub beside it

    Rainbow Valley - how about one beside Snow Valley
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  43. #43
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    How about next to the Muttart Conservatory? While I don't know what environmental resources are required to keep an indoor botanical garden operational, if it includes lots of heated water in the winter then then there's an opportunity to share resources. More importantly, the Edmonton Ski Club is nearby and a new LRT line and station are forthcoming.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  44. #44
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    This would be a rather simple, somewhat costly way to add more things to do in our city in winter and attract people from the region and other areas if done right.
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  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Just back from Iceland and while there are a few differences to consider, we really should have some outdoor hot pools during the winter.
    A few differences? Sweet jesus, way to bury the lede.

    In Iceland they use heat to make power. In Canada we use power to make heat. I guess that's just one difference, but it changes hot springs from a natural amenity to a massive consumer of power & energy.

    I thought your crusade to heat up the great outdoors writ large during winter so you could get drunk on a street corner in the great outdoors was a quixotic endeavour that couldn't get more foolhardy, wasteful & environmentally tone-deaf. Thanks for proving me wrong & making me lower my expectations once again.
    Last edited by noodle; 05-10-2017 at 08:25 AM.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  46. #46

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    There are plenty of people with outdoor hot tubs in this city, using electric heat. Some are used almost daily, but most less than that, I would guess.

    In light of all the other stuff we waste heat on It might not be all that bad. The university, for one example, is dumping heat into the river pretty much year round. It's not hot tub heat, but a heat pump could do the job with less energy use than you would expect. If there's no waste heat available below say -20 then you cover it and close.
    There can only be one.

  47. #47
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    ^^please don't, again.

    It simply reminded me of the pleasures of being outside in a hot tub, in nature or a city on a cold day as part of your lifestyle or daily routine. How great would it be to walk down on a Saturday morning to the local outdoor heated pool to chat with the guys about the week or take the fam there.

    Let's build off of that please than thank you good sir.
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  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^^please don't, again.
    I'll stop criticizing your terrible ideas right after you stop posting them. I'm not about to cede the floor to your own nonsense unconditionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    It simply reminded me of the pleasures of being outside in a hot tub, in nature or a city on a cold day as part of your lifestyle or daily routine. How great would it be to walk down on a Saturday morning to the local outdoor heated pool to chat with the guys about the week or take the fam there.
    Yeah, you get these wistful, quixotic & completely impractical ideas every time you go somewhere else. Same ***** happens when you go anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Let's build off of that please than thank you good sir.
    Let's stop you bringing up stupid, inane, impractical, wasteful ideas & then getting all offended some of us don't swallow your putrid loads with a smile.

    Raise your own bar & I'll happily raise mine. Keep throwing out idiocy & expect more of the same.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    How about next to the Muttart Conservatory? While I don't know what environmental resources are required to keep an indoor botanical garden operational, if it includes lots of heated water in the winter then then there's an opportunity to share resources. More importantly, the Edmonton Ski Club is nearby and a new LRT line and station are forthcoming.
    That would be an awesome location - close to accidental beach as well. I don't know why some people hate this idea, I think its brilliant.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    I don't know why some people hate this idea, I think its brilliant.
    I don't hate the idea, I just find it woefully impractical, inefficient & wasteful. Plus it's another "Field of Dreams" scheme for Ian, where he figures if we rip something away from its context & reinvent it whole cloth in Edmonton that it'll turn out the same as it did when it was shaped & informed by the culture & circumstance of wherever he just got back from a vacation to.

    And that's not even getting into the exceedingly transparent ongoing scheme/theme of wanting public infrastructure or private businesses to cater to/provide him with all the amenities like patios & hot tubs that suburbanites can & do provide for themselves literally in their own backyards without him having to compromise & accept the tradeoffs inherent with dense, urban living. All of the juice, with none of the squeeze.

    Wanna have some beers in the great outdoors & afterwards hop into a hot tub to relax with the boys? Buy a frickin' house, stock the fridge, heat up the tub & invite them over. Be the change you want to see in the world.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  51. #51
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    I find it amusing that some of you suddenly think it's a horrible idea only because Ian is in favor of it. We've only been discussing this idea on C2E for how long now? Which leads me to think it's nothing to do with the idea in itself but just another manifestation of the continuing online harassment of Ian by his self-appointed guardians of his consciousness.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    In Iceland they use heat to make power. In Canada we use power to make heat. I guess that's just one difference, but it changes hot springs from a natural amenity to a massive consumer of power & energy.
    Seriously. All you had to say was this.

    You really need to get the IanO chip on your shoulder checked out.

  53. #53
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    I love how this is being written off as wasteful, yet if you look around town at night there are multiple literal flaming stacks used to burn off waste by-products from refineries and the like.

    It's not unreasonable to think that there might be a way to do this in a cost-efficient manner, whether that means geo-thermal or recycled water from another source. Not only that, but it's entirely possible that this could be a private enterprise, not using public money at all, especially with the project going on in Hinton. It really just takes one person/business to prove the concept is viable in Alberta, then there will be a stampede in that sector. Just like micro-brews, food trucks, escape rooms, axe throwing, blah blah blah.

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex.L View Post
    I love how this is being written off as wasteful, yet if you look around town at night there are multiple literal flaming stacks used to burn off waste by-products from refineries and the like.

    It's not unreasonable to think that there might be a way to do this in a cost-efficient manner, whether that means geo-thermal or recycled water from another source. Not only that, but it's entirely possible that this could be a private enterprise, not using public money at all, especially with the project going on in Hinton. It really just takes one person/business to prove the concept is viable in Alberta, then there will be a stampede in that sector. Just like micro-brews, food trucks, escape rooms, axe throwing, blah blah blah.

    ...and don't we dump treated tap water on the ground to make ice for ice rinks? Many rinks even being in heated buildings with cooling systems under the ice. (The old 'if it were natural it would already be there' argument also implies that we should only be skating on lakes and rivers. ...or containing rainfall until it freezes.)

  55. #55

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    I always thought that all the local refineries and power plants should have been required to use waste heat to heat homes, businesses, greenhouses or other cogeneration projects.

    Hotsprings are just one sensible use that would benefit the people of Edmonton.
    Advocating a better Edmonton through effective, efficient and economical transit.

  56. #56

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    Those flare stacks are a last-resort mechanism to handle overproduction or when other pressure-relief systems aren't adequate. When you see a flare, it's costing that company at least $10k a day in fines.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  57. #57
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    I'm not saying to use them. I'm just saying that it's something that could be considered which is currently wasting heat.

  58. #58

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    I suppose you could harness it, and then run pipes to where people want to be, which is probably not very near an oil refinery or petrochemical plant.
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

  59. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I find it amusing that some of you suddenly think it's a horrible idea only because Ian is in favor of it.
    No, I thought it was a crap idea from the get-go. Should I go around necro-ing threads that have been dead for 4 years, full of crappy ideas just to crap on them further, Mr. Hall Monitor?

    Ian bringing it up again after his trip to Iceland is laughably predictable. You thinking I'm on some sort of anti-Ian vendetta for understanding the laws of thermodynamics is even more hilarious & the cherry is truly you trying to be Forum Cop, given your history of threatening posters with violence.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  60. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmonton PRT View Post
    I always thought that all the local refineries and power plants should have been required to use waste heat to heat homes, businesses, greenhouses or other cogeneration projects.

    Hotsprings are just one sensible use that would benefit the people of Edmonton.
    "District energy" was one such proposal that received serious consideration and money. Rightly or wrongly it died and is no longer possible.

  61. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I find it amusing that some of you suddenly think it's a horrible idea only because Ian is in favor of it.
    No, I thought it was a crap idea from the get-go. Should I go around necro-ing threads that have been dead for 4 years, full of crappy ideas just to crap on them further, Mr. Hall Monitor?

    Ian bringing it up again after his trip to Iceland is laughably predictable. You thinking I'm on some sort of anti-Ian vendetta for understanding the laws of thermodynamics is even more hilarious & the cherry is truly you trying to be Forum Cop, given your history of threatening posters with violence.
    Regarding necro-img: How does text on a computer die? How do forever accessible threads die? Only those stuck in the old world, where newspapers, books and encyclopedias were all printed on paper that couldn't be updated see everything in terms of "current events". In the old world, updating yesterday's news and opinion required wholly new editions be printed and distributed.

    Today we have vast scalability across several user dimensions including time. Does Wikipedia lock down old rarely updated articles just so it can require users to start fresh and re-create old but updatable articles?

    Moreover, those with a rather personally narrow, centric, even narcissistic view of the world seem not to realize that just because they themselves have read and possibly contributed to a thread, the internet's information survives for future visitors to read. It can sit there for years if not decades. So conceivably decades later a new visitor could quite possibly post their own opinions on the subject matter. To deny all that flexibility seems to be demanding that we quash one of the intrinsic advantages of the Internet.

  62. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post

    Wanna have some beers in the great outdoors & afterwards hop into a hot tub to relax with the boys? Buy a frickin' house, stock the fridge, heat up the tub & invite them over. Be the change you want to see in the world.
    Already happens all over Edmonton. The suburbs suck, they really do.

  63. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post

    Wanna have some beers in the great outdoors & afterwards hop into a hot tub to relax with the boys? Buy a frickin' house, stock the fridge, heat up the tub & invite them over. Be the change you want to see in the world.
    Already happens all over Edmonton. The suburbs suck, they really do.
    Hilarious! Thanks!

    And as a kid we used to turn part of our back yard into an ice rink. Why on earth are we taxpayers now funding any of these common facilities.

    Plus we had a shooting range in the basement. Buy a home, the sky, or the yard, the basement's the limit.

  64. #64

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    Private hot tubs are fine, but if the issue is energy consumption then what's the objection to a public hot pool?

    And since when is an "option" that costs up to hundreds of thousands of dollars more good enough when all that I want is to be able to use a hot tub once or twice a year? It's not.

    I already have a house and a yard. And a 100amp service, but I don't want a hot tub. Everyone I know in the city who had hot tub has gotten rid of it for maintenance reasons, but I would pay $10 to go sit in an outdoor tub, especially one either in a beautiful natural setting or with an existing Rec centre.

    A private spa tub would work too, ideally as part of a building with other relaxation/health services. Add a yoga studio, chiro, massage, whatever and you've got a great attraction, and a way to pay for it that's not on the public dime.
    There can only be one.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobleea View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    In Iceland they use heat to make power. In Canada we use power to make heat. I guess that's just one difference, but it changes hot springs from a natural amenity to a massive consumer of power & energy.
    Seriously. All you had to say was this.

    You really need to get the IanO chip on your shoulder checked out.
    Ahh, don't stop him. I find noodle's personality flaws fascinating. Often a post starts with a couple facts or conventional thoughts and then he engages in an attack on the messenger with a long diatribe of invective polemics and vituperations as if it will instill more negative views of the messenger than of himself. (All this expenditure of emotion being expressed between anonymous entities no less. This latter aspect of anonymous dialogue is truly fascinating. It's not in my nature, but I am learning, so it's always entertaining and hopefully insightful for me.)

  66. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highlander II View Post
    Private hot tubs are fine, but if the issue is energy consumption then what's the objection to a public hot pool?

    And since when is an "option" that costs up to hundreds of thousands of dollars more good enough when all that I want is to be able to use a hot tub once or twice a year? It's not.

    I already have a house and a yard. And a 100amp service, but I don't want a hot tub. Everyone I know in the city who had hot tub has gotten rid of it for maintenance reasons, but I would pay $10 to go sit in an outdoor tub, especially one either in a beautiful natural setting or with an existing Rec centre.

    A private spa tub would work too, ideally as part of a building with other relaxation/health services. Add a yoga studio, chiro, massage, whatever and you've got a great attraction, and a way to pay for it that's not on the public dime.
    The good old economies of scale.

  67. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Ahh, don't stop him. I find noodle's personality flaws fascinating. Often a post starts with a couple facts or conventional thoughts and then he engages in an attack on the messenger with a long diatribe of invective polemics and vituperations as if it will instill more negative views of the messenger than of himself. (All this expenditure of emotion being expressed between anonymous entities no less. This latter aspect of anonymous dialogue is truly fascinating. It's not in my nature, but I am learning, so it's always entertaining and hopefully insightful for me.)
    You're so full of yourself you make an ouroboros look like a model of restraint. Also, given your massive problems with reading comprehension & attribution I would recommend climbing down off your high horse lest you hurt yourself.

    Stick to regurgitating Warren Buffet, it was a more amusing schtick than your current pseudointellectual drivel.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  68. #68

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    Saw this on The Onion & it immediately made me think of this thread.

    Study Finds Majority Of Urban Households Located In Roller Rink Deserts

    ITHACA, NY—Confirming that most inner-city residents have gone their entire lives without sufficient access to blacklight skating or Skate-’N’-Celebrate birthday parties, an alarming study published this week by Cornell University revealed that the majority of urban households in the U.S. are located in roller rink deserts. “When we overlaid the locations of the nation’s roller skating rinks onto maps of American metropolitan areas, we were shocked to find that families living in city centers are often forced to travel four or five times as far as their peers in suburban areas for access to adequate indoor skating facilities,” said the report’s lead author, Alexa Shafer, citing evidence that nearly two-thirds of children in urban zones live five miles or more from the nearest locations with weekday open skates or “Saturday At The ’70s” disco nights.
    http://www.theonion.com/article/stud...ocialMarketing

    (The Onion is satire, for those that aren't aware)
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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