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Thread: Social disorder, graffiti, construction issues working against city's image, councillors told

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    Default Social disorder, graffiti, construction issues working against city's image, councillors told

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ncil-1.5210704



    Business associations says Edmonton lags behind other cities in cleanliness and order

    Between construction, graffiti and unwanted social interactions, Edmonton isn't as clean or appealing as other North American cities, council's executive committee heard Friday.

    Downtown is seeing more businesses staying or relocating to the city centre, but Edmonton lags behind other communities in many other ways, said Ian O'Donnell, executive director of the Downtown Business Association.
    "Vis à vis other cities, we are not making the grade. Period," said O'Donnell, who was at committee to discuss a report on how the city is doing at retaining businesses in the downtown core.
    He has heard from investors and business people from Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary who have related their negative experiences and impressions from walking only a few downtown blocks.

    "The overall experience — the look, the feel, the cleanliness, the beautification, the level of care — is far below almost any city I go to."
    O'Donnell noted the billions of dollars invested in buildings and projects in the city are getting overshadowed.
    "You can have a shiny tower but if you're walking by and you get harassed, that's the experience you're taking back."

    There's probably good reason this was ignored in the downtown retail thread... Someone is coy to admit that they are now parroting what's been said for years on c2e... Is our Downtown for Everyone Champion finally getting it? Nah. Read on.


    Most of Coun. Scott McKeen's ward is downtown. He said the issue isn't new.
    O'Donnell referred to Seattle as a success story, pointing out that teams clean key areas every day and use power washers to clean the streets.
    This seems like another ask for city $$$ rather than what most BAs do, fund it themselves. It's a night and day difference how other cities downtown retailers treat their sidewalk storefronts compared to what happens in Edmonton. Nearly daily, most retailers in other major cities, and especially downtown routinely clean their own frontages. Here it seems like its just an opportunity for another ask of $$$. Maybe the local BA could get together and fund a routine power-wash of their store fronts like other BAs do?




    Backstreet renewal

    Klassen and O'Donnell both asked the city for more investment in fixing main streets and back alleys.


    There we are folks! No asks for help for the 'bad social interactions' just fix our sidewalks and alleyways and spend more money on making things shiny, while we attempt to dismiss the issue and sweep it under the rugs (sidewalks)...

    How about we put a full stop to the 51,000,000.00 park that we don't need, and spend some of that money on providing services to getting the help these people need? I'm not an expert on homelessness or vagrants, beggars and street thugs, but certainly that large sum of money could go along way to solving many of the issues, from helping with addiction, providing food, shelter, education and job training. Or you know, we can continue to make things all shiny, in hopes the problem will disappear under the shine???




    Last edited by Medwards; 15-07-2019 at 07:24 AM.

  2. #2

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    Or stop being so negatively biased and focus instead on doing both.

    Plus never buy into the lack of money BS that gets dished out as an excuse to not do what you don’t want to spend money on. (We regularly see massive amounts of found budgetary money spent on projects we never thought we could afford.)
    Last edited by KC; 15-07-2019 at 07:33 AM.

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    Had another breakin in my condo parkade. Almost becoming a monthly occurrence.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ncil-1.5210704



    How about we put a full stop to the 51,000,000.00 park that we don't need, and spend some of that money on providing services to getting the help these people need? I'm not an expert on homelessness or vagrants, beggars and street thugs, but certainly that large sum of money could go along way to solving many of the issues, from helping with addiction, providing food, shelter, education and job training. Or you know, we can continue to make things all shiny, in hopes the problem will disappear under the shine???


    These guys need a Clockwork Orange solution. That $51M park is sorely needed, and the police have more than adequate resourcing to tackle the problem. This is not a money issue. This is a policing philosophy issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Had another breakin in my condo parkade. Almost becoming a monthly occurrence.
    Which building are you in Safir? PM me if you wish.
    There was no need to change that plaque. We are the City of Champions.

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    Remember over a decade ago when some people dared to say that slapping a taxpayer-funded entertainment district right smack in the middle of a neighbourhood full of social services in a Downtown with long-term fundamental & systemic issues regarding the homeless/disadvantaged (& associated crime) wasn't going to be the panacea to urban rejuvenation & revitalization that the boosters' portrayed it as?

    Good times.
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    Whyte Ave got dirtier when the new smoking bylaws came in. All the ashtrays were removed, but smokers are still smoking. The result is they have nowhere to put their cigarette butts, so they toss them on the sidewalk (which is what lots we’re doing before, but now everyone does it).

    Look, I don’t like smoking, but removing the ashtrays while not cracking down on the smoking was a stupid move by the city. They need to bring the ashtrays back, because they certainly aren’t going to be cracking down on smokers at 1am. New bylaws that aren’t enforced mean there aren’t new bylaws.
    They're going to park their car over there. You're going to park your car over here. Get it?

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    There was a trade-off between gentrification and crime. Since we've built on vacant parking lots, the gentrification did not occur. This is now a policing philosophy issue.
    We need to see "hulk smash" more often.

    https://twitter.com/CBCEdmonton/stat...80472986996736


    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Remember over a decade ago when some people dared to say that slapping a taxpayer-funded entertainment district right smack in the middle of a neighbourhood full of social services in a Downtown with long-term fundamental & systemic issues regarding the homeless/disadvantaged (& associated crime) wasn't going to be the panacea to urban rejuvenation & revitalization that the boosters' portrayed it as?

    Good times.

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    We had a wee meeting this morning as follow-up to last Friday's discussions at Executive Committee. 38 stakeholders including our MLA, Councillor's office, Mayor's office and the Chief of Police himself.

    ...more to come.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord Lacey View Post
    Whyte Ave got dirtier when the new smoking bylaws came in. All the ashtrays were removed, but smokers are still smoking. The result is they have nowhere to put their cigarette butts, so they toss them on the sidewalk (which is what lots we’re doing before, but now everyone does it).

    Look, I don’t like smoking, but removing the ashtrays while not cracking down on the smoking was a stupid move by the city. They need to bring the ashtrays back, because they certainly aren’t going to be cracking down on smokers at 1am. New bylaws that aren’t enforced mean there aren’t new bylaws.
    As per the request from the BIA Council and specifically the OSBA/DBA, Admin was directly by City Council to work with us to bring them back.
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    ^^

    i am becoming more and more convinced that we don't need any more focus groups or wee meetings.

    we already know what we need to do to address the shortfalls of our physical environment.

    we also already know what we need to do to address the shortfalls in our social environment.

    with the first, we need to clean up our act, literally.

    with the second, we need to legalize drugs. we can then reallocate the billions we spend on emergency response teams and police and medical services and courts and remand centres and prisons to providing support and preventative measures to the root causes.

    anything else on either front is just another finger in another hole in the dike.
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    Agreed Ken and hence the meeting today. Actionable items and commitment from both the public and private sectors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Agreed Ken and hence the meeting today. Actionable items and commitment from both the public and private sectors.
    is one of those "actional items and commitments" a call for the legalization of all personal drug use and for the legalization of the sale or possession of all drugs for personal drug use?
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    Ken, this meeting was not with the federal government as far as I can tell. Furthermore, even if it was I'd lay the blame for the social disorder squarely on them: safe injection sites are their boondoggle.They are OK with putting their foot down on these, but not on asserting federal rights when it comes to energy corridors. AND I AM PAYING FOR IT.

    You know what: I'd be more than willing to pay to fly these wretches to Ottawa.
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    is one of those "actional items and commitments" a call for the legalization of all personal drug use and for the legalization of the sale or possession of all drugs for personal drug use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Ken, this meeting was not with the federal government as far as I can tell. Furthermore, even if it was I'd lay the blame for the social disorder squarely on them: safe injection sites are their boondoggle.They are OK with putting their foot down on these, but not on asserting federal rights when it comes to energy corridors. AND I AM PAYING FOR IT.

    You know what: I'd be more than willing to pay to fly these wretches to Ottawa.
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    is one of those "actional items and commitments" a call for the legalization of all personal drug use and for the legalization of the sale or possession of all drugs for personal drug use?
    trust me, the federal government was at that meeting even if they weren't at the table and their connections go a lot further than the safe injection sites and the lack of an energy corridor. the article talked about some pretty major construction projects, many of which wouldn't be taking place without lots of provincial and federal dollars (from the two lrt lines to the winspear and the citadel). it also talked about "another 21"...

    even if the federal government isn't at the table, there's absolutely no reason they shouldn't be and plenty of reasons they should be and even if they're not at the table there's no reason that those who are shouldn't be writing and emailing and letting them know this needs more than lip service at all levels.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    So a meeting to end all meetings and now ¿actionable items and commitments? ? Does that go beyond the ask for sidewalk and alley repairs?

    Is it just me or is this quite the about-face here? Why has it taken so long to start to listen? This situation has been festering for a long while, it seems like any negative feedback gets dismissed until now...why now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    We had a wee meeting this morning as follow-up to last Friday's discussions at Executive Committee. 38 stakeholders including our MLA, Councillor's office, Mayor's office and the Chief of Police himself.

    ...more to come.

    https://twitter.com/DBAyeg/status/1150847896964587520
    @dbayeg


    A meeting !

    YAHOO !!

    38 stakeholders !

    This should yield results.


    Last edited by Top_Dawg; 15-07-2019 at 05:26 PM.

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    Actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So a meeting to end all meetings and now ¿actionable items and commitments? ? Does that go beyond the ask for sidewalk and alley repairs?

    Is it just me or is this quite the about-face here? Why has it taken so long to start to listen? This situation has been festering for a long while, it seems like any negative feedback gets dismissed until now...why now?
    aren't you ever happy about something Medwards?

    for years you've been looking for something to be addressed and been unhappy that no-one was addressing it to your satisfaction and now that it's a front and centre issue you're still just as unhappy because it took so long for you to be listened to.
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    This afternoon I was walking east along 104ave at 104 Street. The traffic was stopped at the red light. Within that traffic was an EPS cruiser. A gentleman, obvious right out of it on whatever, started to jaywalk through the stopped traffic across 104ave, kinda bumped into the cruiser, and proceeded the make his way around the rear of the cruiser and continue crossing 104th. The police constables did nothing. That's a big problem right there. I remember when (now somewhat disgraced) NYC mayor Giuliani set his sights to clean up Manhattan and the word went out the no misdemeanor, no matter how small, was to be overlooked by cops on the beat. Oh wait, do we even have street cops anymore?
    Last edited by buildings; 15-07-2019 at 06:21 PM.

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    C2E = Complain 2 Everyone
    I am in no way entitled to your opinion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Ken, this meeting was not with the federal government as far as I can tell. Furthermore, even if it was I'd lay the blame for the social disorder squarely on them: safe injection sites are their boondoggle.They are OK with putting their foot down on these, but not on asserting federal rights when it comes to energy corridors. AND I AM PAYING FOR IT.

    You know what: I'd be more than willing to pay to fly these wretches to Ottawa.
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    is one of those "actional items and commitments" a call for the legalization of all personal drug use and for the legalization of the sale or possession of all drugs for personal drug use?
    I think the message 'legalize all drugs' might have caught somebodies attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So a meeting to end all meetings and now ¿actionable items and commitments? ? Does that go beyond the ask for sidewalk and alley repairs?

    Is it just me or is this quite the about-face here? Why has it taken so long to start to listen? This situation has been festering for a long while, it seems like any negative feedback gets dismissed until now...why now?
    aren't you ever happy about something Medwards?

    for years you've been looking for something to be addressed and been unhappy that no-one was addressing it to your satisfaction and now that it's a front and centre issue you're still just as unhappy because it took so long for you to be listened to.
    Do you think that perhaps, in that last sentence you answered your own question ?

    I can tell you why I am unimpressed with the city and have lost all interest in working to make it better, preferring to focus my energy on other things, but I think you know my justification for that. Should I, for instance, be satisfied with the marginal, half-assed outcomes even though it continues to suck time and energy, and the city still refuses to meaningfully address many problems ?

    The downtown “experience” has become increasingly unpleasant for the last while. I’m not going to offer up solutions because I don’t care and I’m not getting involved. But don’t shame those of us who’ve decided it’s not worth the effort because maybe some of us have just given too much already and the well is empty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buildings View Post
    This afternoon I was walking east along 104ave at 104 Street. The traffic was stopped at the red light. Within that traffic was an EPS cruiser. A gentleman, obvious right out of it on whatever, started to jaywalk through the stopped traffic across 104ave, kinda bumped into the cruiser, and proceeded the make his way around the rear of the cruiser and continue crossing 104th. The police constables did nothing. That's a big problem right there. I remember when (now somewhat disgraced) NYC mayor Giuliani set his sights to clean up Manhattan and the word went out the no misdemeanor, no matter how small, was to be overlooked by cops on the beat. Oh wait, do we even have street cops anymore?
    Wow the cops can’t catch a break in this city! The same day you’re complaining EPS did nothing to address a jaywalking offence, another citizen is complaining the police did too much, and were “harassing” a person committing a panhandling offence.

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...-man-1.5211755

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    Couldn’t we just load up all the rifraf into a transport trailer and drop them off in downtown Calgary. We could do it in the middle of the night when everyone is sleeping.😀 We could even be nice and use a bus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Medwards View Post
    So a meeting to end all meetings and now ¿actionable items and commitments? ? Does that go beyond the ask for sidewalk and alley repairs?

    Is it just me or is this quite the about-face here? Why has it taken so long to start to listen? This situation has been festering for a long while, it seems like any negative feedback gets dismissed until now...why now?
    aren't you ever happy about something Medwards?

    for years you've been looking for something to be addressed and been unhappy that no-one was addressing it to your satisfaction and now that it's a front and centre issue you're still just as unhappy because it took so long for you to be listened to.
    Do you think that perhaps, in that last sentence you answered your own question ?

    I can tell you why I am unimpressed with the city and have lost all interest in working to make it better, preferring to focus my energy on other things, but I think you know my justification for that. Should I, for instance, be satisfied with the marginal, half-assed outcomes even though it continues to suck time and energy, and the city still refuses to meaningfully address many problems ?

    The downtown “experience” has become increasingly unpleasant for the last while. I’m not going to offer up solutions because I don’t care and I’m not getting involved. But don’t shame those of us who’ve decided it’s not worth the effort because maybe some of us have just given too much already and the well is empty.
    your point is taken - i understand your frustration and reasons for focussing on other things. but that doesn't seem to be Medwards' focus. Medwards' focus seems to be just complaining - and not constructively and too often personally - which i don't undersrand.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    The downtown “experience” has become increasingly unpleasant for the last while. I’m not going to offer up solutions because I don’t care and I’m not getting involved. But don’t shame those of us who’ve decided it’s not worth the effort because maybe some of us have just given too much already and the well is empty.
    Amen.

    The sooner my department gets transferred out of the DT core to some place more convenient with a shorter commute the better.
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    Went for a walk around DT SAT. morning with the ol' lady and we almost got shiv'd by a 1st Nations cracked out POS - behind the EDM Motors site where we parked.....scared her a little. But all I was thinking was either: drop this POS and get shiv'd in the guts and leave her a widow. OR, drop this POS and "accidental kill him whilst doing so and go to jail. Did neither, just barely it to our car by seconds before he threw himself onto our windshield...not joking.

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    Did you call EPS non-emerg or 211?
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Went for a walk around DT SAT. morning with the ol' lady and we almost got shiv'd by a 1st Nations cracked out POS - behind the EDM Motors site where we parked.....scared her a little. But all I was thinking was either: drop this POS and get shiv'd in the guts and leave her a widow. OR, drop this POS and "accidental kill him whilst doing so and go to jail. Did neither, just barely it to our car by seconds before he threw himself onto our windshield...not joking.
    It's very sad to see how far my neighbourhood has backslid for safety (both perceived & actual) since the massive cuts to the police presence in the area. Nobody should feel unsafe in Oliver a half block off of Jasper Ave on a Saturday morning.
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    I was just thinking about the famous trifecta of Edmonton demographics: unusually male, native, and jails. The City of Edmonton needs to just drop everything else and just deal with policing and roads. One $$billion each should do it to get this city into a semblance of order.

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    I just want my cops back. Let the OEG pay for the cops to protect their shiny shrine to mediocre hockey.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    I was just thinking about the famous trifecta of Edmonton demographics: unusually male, native, and jails. The City of Edmonton needs to just drop everything else and just deal with policing and roads. One $$billion each should do it to get this city into a semblance of order.
    You sound like a typical consevative angry entitled WASP with this post

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I just want my cops back. Let the OEG pay for the cops to protect their shiny shrine to mediocre hockey.
    Still waiting for an answer to the question "If more people downtown makes it safer, why did the downtown beat need a 50% increase in policing?".

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I just want my cops back. Let the OEG pay for the cops to protect their shiny shrine to mediocre hockey.
    Sounds like there was a condo break-in in Oliver last night and a lady was held at knifepoint.

    Inner city communities all suffered due to the re-allocation of resources. We were told point blank that when the Alberta Avenue community detachment closed that is was to centralize and focus resources downtown. Now downtown has way more resources and it's still over-run with violence, petty crime, vagrancy and disorder, so what's been achieved actually ? Absolutely shameful

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    It was on Monday, on my block. https://globalnews.ca/news/5762717/e...enter-suspect/

    When I first moved into my building & we got slapped with an assessment for enhanced security I originally thought it was a bit heavy handed & onerous but man oh man am I ever glad it's in place now.
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    Nope.....just a mere 3 blocks over - they must have been a few dozen cops out on Jasper getting paid triple time to "monitor" the parade. Here where we were was a ghost town....hardly anyone on the sidewalks and here we are getting followed and intimidated by a skidmark for 4 blocks right under the cops' noses along JASPER AVE. and barely made it to our car. Doesn't help that he probably wanted to "test" his crackhead strength against me due to my stature...but nonetheless....

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I just want my cops back. Let the OEG pay for the cops to protect their shiny shrine to mediocre hockey.
    Sounds like there was a condo break-in in Oliver last night and a lady was held at knifepoint.

    Inner city communities all suffered due to the re-allocation of resources. We were told point blank that when the Alberta Avenue community detachment closed that is was to centralize and focus resources downtown. Now downtown has way more resources and it's still over-run with violence, petty crime, vagrancy and disorder, so what's been achieved actually ? Absolutely shameful
    The closing of the local EPS community detachments sucks. Just flat out sucks. They made the police feel much more accessible and communities more secure. Especially losing the Alberta Avenue branch was a huge hit--my family has a business not far from there and whether it's coincidence or not, since that branch closed there have been multiple break-ins.

    Instead we now have quadrant model that at least protects all the Cora restaurants well:

    I will beat the dead horse back to life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maclac View Post
    Went for a walk around DT SAT. morning with the ol' lady and we almost got shiv'd by a 1st Nations cracked out POS - behind the EDM Motors site where we parked.....scared her a little. But all I was thinking was either: drop this POS and get shiv'd in the guts and leave her a widow. OR, drop this POS and "accidental kill him whilst doing so and go to jail. Did neither, just barely it to our car by seconds before he threw himself onto our windshield...not joking.
    Shiv'd is slang for knifed correct? This fellow pulled a knife on you?

    Based on your description, it's more likely this fellow was jacked up on meth rather than crack. Sadly, meth is making a big comeback on the streets of Edmonton.

    Used to be called crystal meth but is now called meth because it is more likely to be injected these days than taken orally. Compared to opoids like crack, meth addicts are much more likely to swear loudly at no one in particular and sometimes engage in aggressive behaviours and violent outbursts. More information on meth addiction here: https://americanaddictioncenters.org...reatment/facts

    If you run across someone you think is jacked up on meth the best thing to do is not engage with them and withdraw. Whatever you felt like doing, you did the correct thing by getting into your car without further antagonizing the fellow. Not too long ago I had something similar happen in front of the Royal Liquor Store on 107 Ave. A fellow asked me for money and when I politely declined he started yelling abuse. When I got into my car he started pounding on the hood but luckily I was able to drive away before any damage was done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I just want my cops back. Let the OEG pay for the cops to protect their shiny shrine to mediocre hockey.
    Sounds like there was a condo break-in in Oliver last night and a lady was held at knifepoint.

    Inner city communities all suffered due to the re-allocation of resources. We were told point blank that when the Alberta Avenue community detachment closed that is was to centralize and focus resources downtown. Now downtown has way more resources and it's still over-run with violence, petty crime, vagrancy and disorder, so what's been achieved actually ? Absolutely shameful
    i hear that the edmonton police recruiting centre is being reintegrated into their new office space and will be vacating it's street presence in downtown/entertainment district/the quarters and leaving the old city market building at 10177 97th street.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Evidently EPS has been cracking down on homeless camps in the river valley, which is forcing the people back onto the streets. Given the disparity of policing resources between Downtown & the rest of the central, valley-adjacent neighbourhoods I would wager we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg in terms of issues.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    I was just thinking about the famous trifecta of Edmonton demographics: unusually male, native, and jails. The City of Edmonton needs to just drop everything else and just deal with policing and roads. One $$billion each should do it to get this city into a semblance of order.
    What does that even mean?

    This is a classic case of higher levels of government downloading their responsibilities onto lower levels of government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I just want my cops back. Let the OEG pay for the cops to protect their shiny shrine to mediocre hockey.
    Sounds like there was a condo break-in in Oliver last night and a lady was held at knifepoint.

    Inner city communities all suffered due to the re-allocation of resources. We were told point blank that when the Alberta Avenue community detachment closed that is was to centralize and focus resources downtown. Now downtown has way more resources and it's still over-run with violence, petty crime, vagrancy and disorder, so what's been achieved actually ? Absolutely shameful
    i hear that the edmonton police recruiting centre is being reintegrated into their new office space and will be vacating it's street presence in downtown/entertainment district/the quarters and leaving the old city market building at 10177 97th street.
    That is unfortunate.

    Rather than centralize downtown the police should be spreading out, even administrative jobs should be located at community stations rather than in an office tower downtown. That was a poor decision.

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by 240GLT View Post
    That is unfortunate.

    Rather than centralize downtown the police should be spreading out, even administrative jobs should be located at community stations rather than in an office tower downtown. That was a poor decision.
    I believe what Ken means is that these functions are now going to be concentrated at the new NW police campus, the one designed by the Milner people with the leaking roof that's delaying things for a year.

    https://globalnews.ca/news/5660034/e...t-campus-roof/

    The 183,000-square-foot facility will house a division station, arrest processing facility, information management and approval centre, recruit training learning centre and vehicle maintenance area.
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

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    ^ that could be, but EPS took a number of floors in TD tower, so I think a lot of the administrative functions are moving there.

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    That they are. Consolidation of admin and others best suited to be in one place.
    www.decl.org

    Ottawa-Edmonton-Vancouver-Edmonton

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    https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw
    Some slight similarities?

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Evidently EPS has been cracking down on homeless camps in the river valley, which is forcing the people back onto the streets. Given the disparity of policing resources between Downtown & the rest of the central, valley-adjacent neighborhoods I would wager we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg in terms of issues.
    You bring up a good point with the crackdown on homeless camps. I live in Oliver and often see full shopping cart set ups with sleeping patrons near the streetcar crossing on 109 ST/ 100th avenue, or near the stairwell entrances to the the valley on 112-114 street. Not to mention the screaming and fighting at Grant Notley Park all through the night. I am sympathetic to the homeless and understand they need somewhere to sleep. The BMX riding Redd Alert gangsters like to harass bystanders and unstable meth heads screaming and swinging fists at anyone who approaches them are an issue when we do not get sufficient policing resources. I understand why people feel unsafe in my neighborhood when the streets are empty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captain_yosha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Evidently EPS has been cracking down on homeless camps in the river valley, which is forcing the people back onto the streets. Given the disparity of policing resources between Downtown & the rest of the central, valley-adjacent neighborhoods I would wager we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg in terms of issues.
    You bring up a good point with the crackdown on homeless camps. I live in Oliver and often see full shopping cart set ups with sleeping patrons near the streetcar crossing on 109 ST/ 100th avenue, or near the stairwell entrances to the the valley on 112-114 street. Not to mention the screaming and fighting at Grant Notley Park all through the night. I am sympathetic to the homeless and understand they need somewhere to sleep. The BMX riding Redd Alert gangsters like to harass bystanders and unstable meth heads screaming and swinging fists at anyone who approaches them are an issue when we do not get sufficient policing resources. I understand why people feel unsafe in my neighborhood when the streets are empty.
    it's easy and convenient to blame insufficient policing resources but the problem won't be solved just by increasing police resources. the problem isn't really insufficient police resources (and insufficient courtrooms and insufficient jails and insufficient prisons). the problem isn't really homelessness either. the real problem is drugs and what drives people to use them and i've come to believe the solutions need to multi-pronged and that criminalization is the least effective tool in the toolbox.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  50. #50

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    Drug use is definitely a massive problem. Our city (especially downtown) has a large population of people on the streets who have mental illnesses of various severity, and they all self-medicate with whatever they can get enough money to buy (drugs, booze, solvents, hairspray, listerine mouthwash, etc.). If they get desperate enough they do something that causes them to get thrown in jail.

    I think our society has unintentionally and inadvertently replaced its mental institutions with prisons.

  51. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    Drug use is definitely a massive problem. Our city (especially downtown) has a large population of people on the streets who have mental illnesses of various severity, and they all self-medicate with whatever they can get enough money to buy (drugs, booze, solvents, hairspray, listerine mouthwash, etc.). If they get desperate enough they do something that causes them to get thrown in jail.

    I think our society has unintentionally and inadvertently replaced its mental institutions with prisons.
    Mostly agree. And there’s a lot of people with drug addictions* that hold down jobs and do quite well in life.

    A lot of people that have done illicit drugs, were never caught or prosecuted and so have lived productive lives why those that were caught and lacked the wherewithal to get off have had their lives ruined.

    The lasting impact and negative repercussions of criminal records on the individuals and on society needs to be rethought.


    * alcohol, tobacco included. There’s a lot of professionals that have alcohol addiction.
    Last edited by KC; Today at 11:00 AM.

  52. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I think our society has unintentionally and inadvertently replaced its mental institutions with prisons.
    You sir, are correct. In the 1950s, your average mental institution would have 5000 patients. But then the 60s happened, and a resourceful patient campaigned for release into the "community" (read wild) because "muh hueman rights". The rest, they say, is history. There is no community for these people. Not even family. They are in hell, and we are witness to it.
    Last edited by Safir; Today at 11:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
    I think our society has unintentionally and inadvertently replaced its mental institutions with prisons.
    You sir, are correct. In the 1950s, your average mental institution would have 5000 patients. But then the 60s happened, and a resourceful patient campaigned for release into the "community" (read wild) because "muh hueman rights". The rest, they say, is history. There is no community for these people. Not even family. They are in hell, and we are witness to it.
    5,000 patients??? alberta hospital has about 410 beds and while it has closed a number of beds and no longer "offers" some of the serviced it once did i'm be surprised if it ever had a population of 5,000.

    i think you might also be conflating two populations... while some mentally ill people may be self-medicating, not all of the people on the streets or using drugs are self-medicating for illness as we would typically use that term.

    regardless, your are right in your assessment of the hell both sets are living in and it's up to us as a society to provide better options for ourselves as well as for them. While we are indeed witness to it, we are certainly not divorced from either the causes or the consequences.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

  54. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by captain_yosha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Evidently EPS has been cracking down on homeless camps in the river valley, which is forcing the people back onto the streets. Given the disparity of policing resources between Downtown & the rest of the central, valley-adjacent neighborhoods I would wager we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg in terms of issues.
    You bring up a good point with the crackdown on homeless camps. I live in Oliver and often see full shopping cart set ups with sleeping patrons near the streetcar crossing on 109 ST/ 100th avenue, or near the stairwell entrances to the the valley on 112-114 street. Not to mention the screaming and fighting at Grant Notley Park all through the night. I am sympathetic to the homeless and understand they need somewhere to sleep. The BMX riding Redd Alert gangsters like to harass bystanders and unstable meth heads screaming and swinging fists at anyone who approaches them are an issue when we do not get sufficient policing resources. I understand why people feel unsafe in my neighborhood when the streets are empty.
    it's easy and convenient to blame insufficient policing resources but the problem won't be solved just by increasing police resources. the problem isn't really insufficient police resources (and insufficient courtrooms and insufficient jails and insufficient prisons). the problem isn't really homelessness either. the real problem is drugs and what drives people to use them and i've come to believe the solutions need to multi-pronged and that criminalization is the least effective tool in the toolbox.
    I wasn't try to come across as if policing is the solution. I am a big advocate of multi-pronged social solutions for this issue and I agree with you that it is much more complicated than "lock em up". I just wanted to chime in to Noodle's observation that the crackdown on river valley camps and lack of police presence in Oliver has been noticeable

    Edit: re-reading my initial response it does look like I'm calling for more police. Sorry about that "are an issue when we do not get sufficient policing resources"
    Last edited by captain_yosha; Today at 01:31 PM. Reason: reply clarification

  55. #55

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    Looks like the Left Coast is being hit as well...too bad we don't have their weather.

    https://youtu.be/cUS_Ls5CS5s

    Quote Originally Posted by Mla View Post
    https://youtu.be/bpAi70WWBlw
    Some slight similarities?

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