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Thread: New Arena | Entertainment | Discussion

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    Default New Arena | Entertainment | Discussion

    Everyone has a right to their own opinion and i very much respect freedom of speech, but i cannot stand when people write on a topic that they obviously know little about. Ignorance be damned.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Downtown arena has too much downside
    The Edmonton Journal
    Published: 2:32 am

    Re: "Downtown arena closer to reality: Mandel welcomes Katz offer to add $100M to pot," The Journal, Dec. 14.

    As the pressure for a downtown arena increases, I hope city council will have the courage to resist.

    The tidal wave of parking demand created by an arena would swamp the parking facilities that have slowly grown to accommodate the downtown cultural complex: the library, the Citadel, the Winspear and the art gallery -- not to mention shopping and restaurant facilities.
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    The proximity of an LRT station will have no more effect on parking demand than it has for the current arena in the northeast.

    Thousands will continue to travel by car to hockey games.

    If patrons of the downtown arts and shopping facilities cannot park because hockey fans have filled the parkades, they will stay home. Boards of the arts facilities will then have to choose between letting their organizations die or moving to new locations -- a consequence which will add millions of dollars to the ultimate cost of building a downtown arena.

    There is no need to set the arts and sports communities at loggerheads.

    Douglas Elves, Edmonton


    © The Edmonton Journal 2007
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    It's the equivalence of me writing on the benefits of reindeer droppings on coniferous shrubs in Northern Finland. I know nothing about it, and trying to come across like I do would make me look like a complete fool to anybody how has the slightest idea.

    The guy from Viking cracked me up too.

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    As someone who lives in the downtown 'warehouse' district, I am pleased with the idea of having an arena downtown. Toronto's ACC is right downtown and lots of people are willing to take the train. Sadly there are not enough people who frequent the shopping etc in the arts district at present to even fill parking lots. Downtown is still very much a 'ghost town' in the evenings and I think an arena will bring some life to the area and allow shops to stay open into the evening hours.

    not to mention my property value will skyrocket

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    Unless Douglas Elves is the man in charge of making sure these downtown shopping facilities are open even remotely close to the time a hockey game/concert/monster truck rally (wait, those stay at Rexall) starts during the week, he's so far off base the base is a speck on the horizon. And even if he is, he's still off his rocker.

    As there's more commuters in the core (30000) than spectators in a hockey game (18500) plus the weekly patronage at AGA (2001 annual number for the EAG was 66000, so we'll be generous and double that for post-revamp AGA, and say 2500 a week) plus the entire seating capacity @ The Citadel (~2000 as per their website) and they seem to manage arriving and leaving in a roughly synchronized manner and don't seem to have an issue with parking or traffic. In fact, that's still 7000 people LESS than commuting, and people tend to go to sporting and arts events with more people than they commute to work with.

    A friend of mine was shooting a photo shoot that needed a grimy parkade background this summer. I told him to go to any of the downtown parkades after 6pm as they're almost deserted. He later remarked that his model felt uncomfortable because of the eerie silence in such a large public space.

    it's also almost insulting to think that people who shop, enjoy the arts, and watch sporting events are mutually exclusive?

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    ^i wouldnt say ghost town, but it definitely needs a ton more people, more attractions, and more places to go to.

    the arena will be HUGE for this city, the oilers, and the downtown.
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    Default Re: This kind of attitude

    Mr. Elves,

    Your concern about the downtown arena competing against other facilities is understood. With a new arena, I would imagine that downtown could get about 7,000 cars, on top of the numbers already parked at existing facilities for concerts, shows or shopping.

    I think if the City goes ahead with the downtown arena, Edmonton needs to consider two things:

    (1) Something like a downtown arena should be factored into Edmonton's Transportation Master Plan. I agree, the new arena will have a significant impact on traffic. Connors Road, 99 Street and Calgary Trail will have rush hour traffic levels, along with 97 Street and 104 Avenue/Stony Plain Road. LRT should be planned for West and SE Expansion, and another bridge across the North Saskatchewan River should be considered.

    (2) The Edmonton downtown parkades will have to coordinate for the additional demand at night. Properly done, we could accommodate the extra cars.

    I look forward to seeing the stakeholders working out a plan.

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    Default Re: This kind of attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Cat
    Mr. Elves,

    Your concern about the downtown arena competing against other facilities is understood. With a new arena, I would imagine that downtown could get about 7,000 cars, on top of the numbers already parked at existing facilities for concerts, shows or shopping.

    I think if the City goes ahead with the downtown arena, Edmonton needs to consider two things:

    (1) Something like a downtown arena should be factored into Edmonton's Transportation Master Plan. I agree, the new arena will have a significant impact on traffic. Connors Road, 99 Street and Calgary Trail will have rush hour traffic levels, along with 97 Street and 104 Avenue/Stony Plain Road. LRT should be planned for West and SE Expansion, and another bridge across the North Saskatchewan River should be considered.

    (2) The Edmonton downtown parkades will have to coordinate for the additional demand at night. Properly done, we could accommodate the extra cars.

    I look forward to seeing the stakeholders working out a plan.

    A sold out Oiler game in a new rink might be 18-20,000 which is far less than daily workforce rush hour. Traffic will be no worse and actually less than that. The infrastructure is there and if people complain about driving and parking...take the LRT which will be below the rink.

    parkades wont need to coordinate..they work very well as is
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    Car vs. City
    Round xⁿ

    Car: ∞
    City: 0

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagould
    Car vs. City
    Round xⁿ

    Car: ∞
    City: 0
    Not that I agree with this post really, but I just enjoy that someone made an argument using math as the form.

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    city - car = + marginal utility
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    Default Re: This kind of attitude

    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Everyone has a right to their own opinion and i very much respect freedom of speech, but i cannot stand when people write on a topic that they obviously know little about. Ignorance be damned.

    I doubt that there will be a tidal wave of parking demand downtown. Will there be demand? Of course there will be, but I think he's missing a couple of key points.
    1) Parking can be constructed with a new facility, and
    2) There will be a learning curve for people to re-learn the downtown

    The 2nd point is what excites me. I already think we have enough parkade space, but I also think there's enough above ground parking that is within a reasonable walking distance from a new arena that will promote economic activity throughout the downtown.

    Here's a concept. Oiler games will be played in a venue that has a fixed number of seats (i.e. only a certain number of people can attend). For the first while after a new arena is built, there will be a lot of people who will want to drive. I'm sure if you could chart this, you would see an elevated amount of people attempting to drive at first. Once people start to learn the area (i.e. what is available where) there should be a decline in the amount of parking that is demanded. To accelerate this process, the city would do themselves a favor by limiting the amount of parking that is available on site.

    If there is such an animal out there, I'd like to see a chart or table that demonstrates how much on site parking is available at various arenas around the continent. I think we already have a good idea of which arenas have limited parking and have benefited their downtown by being there (see Vancouver).

    Either way, private parking will remain just that... Private! So, shopping patrons, arts goers, etc will still have the parking they require anyway. These are minor issues. If there are infractions they will be dealt with by ticketing and/or towing. That's it. People will learn what they can and cannot do. I'm certain there will be some complaints but they won't be nearly enough or serious enough to outweigh the benefits to our city.

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    stationlands has 2500 odd parking spots going to be constructed...hell 850 in epcor tower alone.
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    Two things:

    1) An arena better have proper and adequate urban paking facilities provided.

    2) They better be able to handle trucks. Far too many of the lots downtown are ill suited for trucks. Remember, we ARE in Alberta no matter how many fanciful dreams we may have about pushing to a transit mecca.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC
    Two things:

    1) An arena better have proper and adequate urban paking facilities provided.

    2) They better be able to handle trucks. Far too many of the lots downtown are ill suited for trucks. Remember, we ARE in Alberta no matter how many fanciful dreams we may have about pushing to a transit mecca.
    1. i suspect the new rink would NOT have parking but would make a deal with stationlands.

    2. true...unfortunately...but most if not all UG can fit most vehicles. My condo parkade is tight, but it has an avalance, an f150, a few suvs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC
    Two things:

    1) An arena better have proper and adequate urban paking facilities provided.

    2) They better be able to handle trucks. Far too many of the lots downtown are ill suited for trucks. Remember, we ARE in Alberta no matter how many fanciful dreams we may have about pushing to a transit mecca.
    1. i suspect the new rink would NOT have parking but would make a deal with stationlands.

    2. true...unfortunately...but most if not all UG can fit most vehicles. My condo parkade is tight, but it has an avalance, an f150, a few suvs.
    Park it at the LRT station in the NE... they have plenty of parking with wide spaces.... you also avoid having to drive into downtown. Simple.

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    Ian; I think you have to write a letter to the Journal countering some of the misleading information that these well intentioned folks are putting out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ridgeman
    Ian; I think you have to write a letter to the Journal countering some of the misleading information that these well intentioned folks are putting out there.
    Not just about the phantom parking issue, but about the inevitable arguments about traffic, the arena sitting empty, funding for NHL millionaires vs. homeless/potholes/other pet issues, assumptions that an exact replica of Rexall Place will be built, etc.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    stationlands has 2500 odd parking spots going to be constructed...hell 850 in epcor tower alone.
    Doesn't that contradict this:
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    Quote Originally Posted by bagould
    ...what's up with the parking? Aren't you over the downtown max or is the 850 potentially shared with the rest of the project?
    ...the parking and loading structure for the entire project is a single one and it doesn't "break down" in quite the same locations as the podium and tower spaces...it is, as you noted, "overbuilt" for this phase but will not increase in size for the next two podium pieces...
    Or is Stationlands a lot bigger than I think it is?

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    I read that as they're going to excavate and build the entire parkade now, but given the reduced entrances to said parkade due to the phased build out, only 850 of the 2500 total parking spots will be available and accessible from the EPCOR Tower parkade. As the arena will be built out in a similar timeframe to the remainder of Stationlands, conceivably all 2500 stalls could be available for use with the arena.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    Quote Originally Posted by ridgeman
    Ian; I think you have to write a letter to the Journal countering some of the misleading information that these well intentioned folks are putting out there.
    Not just about the phantom parking issue, but about the inevitable arguments about traffic, the arena sitting empty, funding for NHL millionaires vs. homeless/potholes/other pet issues, assumptions that an exact replica of Rexall Place will be built, etc.

    i will be replying today to the journal...
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    letter submitted and i ask you all who have an opinion, whatever that might be, to reply with a letter to the editor.
    www.decl.org

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    I submitted.

    However, like I said on the Glenora thread, the decision makers are starting to wise up in Edmonton overall. Mandels mantra is being listened to, slowly but surely that administration is cutting through the old guard who either cannot or will not change, and a new crop of councilors are seeing rather quickly that hanging hats on old fights will not be tolerated.

    These parking concerns are not going to be overly tolerated. Nor are the traffic concerns. Like all of us who work downtown know, rush hour here handles way more traffic than an Oiler game will.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    I'll polish up my post into a proper letter and submit as well, since I spent like 15 minutes looking up the numbers in the first place...

  24. #24

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    I think there are a lot of people out there in this city, who never drive to downtown, because they don't work there, but instead, somewhere on the periphery

    Even more interestingly, is how many of these people have even driven to downtown around the time of a game - at 7pm or similar? Or tried to get parking at this time? It is incredibly easy, there are far more parkades, in downtown, than there are around Rexall.

    I hear so often "but downtown is so terrible to drive too". Yes, we miss a good Southern access (bridge / expressway), but, outside rush hour (and even then its not that bad), it is a breeze. Not to mention LRT. We will see a lot of IMO, uninformed comnets like this in the paper. The good news is that once people start thinking about it, and getting past an initial impression, their logic changes.

    IMO part of the reason we need this Arena so desperatley, is maybe some of those who are currently afraid to cross the bridge, will be forced to give it a try. Maybe they will learn our downtown is not so bad after all? Also, maybe our visitors will stay in a cool urban environment, and have some fun spending money in our cool downtown attractions? Exciting times ahead!

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    yes...more people...do it...


    we need to reply when there are letters that the general public might believe or side with erroneously.

    the truth needs to get out there...or at the very least, the other side of the mistruth.
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    what we really need is "walkable arenas"

    a grid of them spaced about one every kilometre, with dense apartment blocks around them.
    City Centre Airport is to the sky as False Creek is to the ocean.

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    My submission

    I was not surprised to read opinions against locating the new arena downtown (Saturday Dec 15), but I am very disappointed that people are basing their opinions on misconceptions and nonsense like availability of parking and traffic congestion.

    Parking is plentiful near the rumored post office site location within nearby parkades. While they may not be directly across the street, it is no worse than walking from the midpoint of the current Northlands parking lot to Rexall. Instead of the current funnel one has to deal with while leaving Northlands, having the parking spread out across numerous parkades, the LRT expansion and people having the ability to walk to a nearby restaurant or bar to finish off the night, will lessen the post event traffic impact.

    Edmonton has the opportunity to build something that we can be proud of. Let’s do it right. Build it in a spot where it will create a destination, where people will want to work, live and play, not along some freeway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter
    I hear so often "but downtown is so terrible to drive too". Yes, we miss a good Southern access (bridge / expressway), but, outside rush hour (and even then its not that bad), it is a breeze. Not to mention LRT. We will see a lot of IMO, uninformed comnets like this in the paper. The good news is that once people start thinking about it, and getting past an initial impression, their logic changes.
    Mandel said during his re-election campaign that he wants to build a new bridge from the southside to downtown. If he can get that balling rolling asap, maybe there'll be one by the time a new downtown arena is constructed.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Oh, and check out this bit of misguided brilliance:

    Build arena along Anthony Henday Drive: expert

    EDMONTON - Coun. Bryan Anderson has his own solution to the downtown arena issue - forget downtown and build the arena along Anthony Henday Drive.

    "I would think that adjacent to Anthony Henday in southeast Edmonton would be a phenomenal place for an arena," said Anderson in an interview. A former high school basketball coach, he's the sports and recreational expert on council.

    Building a new arena to replace Rexall Place in The Meadows area east of Mill Woods would mean easy road access on the Henday ring road, lots of parking, and plenty of land to build the arena, said Anderson.

    The ring road is half-completed and will be 90-per-cent done when the north leg is finished, probably by 2011.

    "There are all kinds of people who are going to have reasons to oppose a downtown arena, but there's no reason to oppose something that has tons of land, etc.," Anderson said.

    He stresses this is his personal opinion, but said he'll raise it when council discusses the report being done for Mayor Stephen Mandel on the viability of a new arena for the Edmonton Oilers and concerts.

    His idea was dismissed Friday by Coun. Dave Thiele, who represents the southeast.

    "It doesn't make any sense unless it's a privately funded facility to begin with, with towers and a hotel maybe," said Thiele. "That isn't going to happen anywhere in Mill Woods or the Meadows. There's no spot there, either."

    Link to rest of article
    Expert
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC
    Two things:

    1) An arena better have proper and adequate urban paking facilities provided.

    2) They better be able to handle trucks. Far too many of the lots downtown are ill suited for trucks. Remember, we ARE in Alberta no matter how many fanciful dreams we may have about pushing to a transit mecca.
    1. i suspect the new rink would NOT have parking but would make a deal with stationlands.

    2. true...unfortunately...but most if not all UG can fit most vehicles. My condo parkade is tight, but it has an avalance, an f150, a few suvs.
    IanO, i'm pretty sure MylesC is referring to the need to accommodate full semi-trailer traffic in and out of suitable loading facilities for the building not just for supplies and garbage etc. but for the "travelling road shows" arriving with their own stage sets and lighting and all of the other paraphernalia needed to put on the shows.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey
    "There are all kinds of people who are going to have reasons to oppose a downtown arena, but there's no reason to oppose something that has tons of land, etc.," Anderson said.
    Did he seriously say etcetera?

    Also, I've played rec soccer half my life. Ergo, I am an expert. I say we should build a new national soccer stadium...on the moon. There are all kinds of people who are going to have reasons to oppose a stadium on the sun, but there's no reason to oppose something that's not on fire, etc.

    I guess he's kinda on the right track by saying that it would spur LRT, but if that's seriously the only reason we could justify the train to MW we've got bigger problems. And how long would it take to get it there anyway? Don't tell me this is part of some plan to get the LRT to MW versus the south leg and AHD...that would make me even sadder than this article does.


    Oh, and Ken: Clarification on the Stationlands parking situation please.

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    Note to Bryan.

    Building it along the Henday is stupid. You'll get Northlands (concrete monolith with nothing else to add), and a facility that relies 100% on the car.

    Building anywhere else other than the existing site or Downtown is stupid. You need an LRT link.

    Thank you.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Haha, I just responded to that thinking you were talking to me and somehow assuming I was in favour of it.

    It's Bryan with a Y. That'll stop me from wondering if you've lost your marbles.

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    marbles found
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by bagould
    ...Oh, and Ken: Clarification on the Stationlands parking situation please.
    ok, ok... underneath our much beloved podium, station lands is "anchored" by a four level parkade and loading structure. it was designed for up to 2,800 parking stalls with levels one and four extending continuously from 97 street to 101 street. parking ingress and egress is from two locations along 105 avenue and from a four way light controlled intersection at 105 avenue and 101 street. semitrailer loading docks are located at four locations on the p-3 level (and their height requirements segment portions of the parking on p-2 as well) with truck ingress/egress through separate truck "portals" located on 100 street. the western half of the site is limited in depth by the lrt easements from churchill to the northwest (and we are presently working directly with transit to ensure their long-term construction requirements are being protected). the easterly portion of the site could be excavated further if additional parking levels were warranted.

    and if anyone is wondering, how anyone could even contemplate repeating the same mistakes ottawa made with scotiabank place in kanata at a location even worse than rexall place already occupies simply escapes me. and how mr. elves can posit that those same things that make our downtown arts and shopping and business and hotels successful - i.e. the synergies that exist between them - will fail to both benefit and benefit from a downtown arena simply escapes me as well.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    and if anyone is wondering, how anyone could even contemplate repeating the same mistakes ottawa made with scotiabank place in kanata at a location even worse than rexall place already occupies simply escapes me.
    amen
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO
    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC
    Two things:

    1) An arena better have proper and adequate urban paking facilities provided.

    2) They better be able to handle trucks. Far too many of the lots downtown are ill suited for trucks. Remember, we ARE in Alberta no matter how many fanciful dreams we may have about pushing to a transit mecca.
    1. i suspect the new rink would NOT have parking but would make a deal with stationlands.

    2. true...unfortunately...but most if not all UG can fit most vehicles. My condo parkade is tight, but it has an avalance, an f150, a few suvs.
    IanO, i'm pretty sure MylesC is referring to the need to accommodate full semi-trailer traffic in and out of suitable loading facilities for the building not just for supplies and garbage etc. but for the "travelling road shows" arriving with their own stage sets and lighting and all of the other paraphernalia needed to put on the shows.
    Exactly, I have no doubt that a new arena will have an underground parking / loading component for some of the executive staff, hockey players, people who have suites (perhaps valet), and of course for the trailers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    and if anyone is wondering, how anyone could even contemplate repeating the same mistakes ottawa made with scotiabank place in kanata at a location even worse than rexall place already occupies simply escapes me.
    amen
    Praise the lord....

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    Quote Originally Posted by bagould
    ...Oh, and Ken: Clarification on the Stationlands parking situation please.

    and if anyone is wondering, how anyone could even contemplate repeating the same mistakes ottawa made with scotiabank place in kanata at a location even worse than rexall place already occupies simply escapes me. and how mr. elves can posit that those same things that make our downtown arts and shopping and business and hotels successful - i.e. the synergies that exist between them - will fail to both benefit and benefit from a downtown arena simply escapes me as well.
    Nothing more to add.

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    Here's one from CBC Edmonton's website...

    Kim

    Edmonton

    I wish that Katz would move on and leave the oiler club alone. How many times does he have to be told no thanks.The owners of the oilers are doing a great job and we know the club is staying in Edmonton. Also many people DO NOT want a new arena downtown, just renovate the one you got( i think it's just fine)the location is great and theres parking.I know we will not go downtown to use the new arena. Why do people think they need to fix something that's not broken?

    Posted December 14, 2007 01:35 PM
    I gave a reply basically slamming the whole "it's good enough for Edmonton" mentality.

    Also, I tried to refute her implying Katz's bid as being "hostile", I said it wasn't... if that's wrong or if there's a better definition for it, please correct me.

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    with quotes from the "Kim's", sometimes I wonder why I bother...
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichardS
    with quotes from the "Kim's", sometimes I wonder why I bother...
    because you love it - besides, if we all agreed on everything all the time it would get pretty boring pretty quickly...
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    agreeing is one thing. ...and I am really not loving it anymore.
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    IanO, i'm pretty sure MylesC is referring to the need to accommodate full semi-trailer traffic in and out of suitable loading facilities for the building not just for supplies and garbage etc. but for the "travelling road shows" arriving with their own stage sets and lighting and all of the other paraphernalia needed to put on the shows.
    Nope...although if a rink didn't have a loading area for semitrucks someone would have to be thoroughly beaten and chased out of the City.

    I was talking about larger vehicles. If a person has a large vehicle like a truck, SUV, etc, etc, there is very few options for parking right in the core if one wants an underground option.

    Take, for instance, a busy Friday or Saturday night in the core right now. If the Westin is packed with events, the Citadel is showing something, and the ESO is playing, the nearby options fillup very quickly. For the past few weeks the Library parkade has had the full sign up by 10am, as well.

    Furthermore, I know that the Westin valets have only a few options for taller vehicles since the Westin only has the top floor high enough and the library parkade is very low.

    So, for an arena downtown, there is going to have to be parking put into the structure. We're hearing hooplah over how to properly do a downtown facility, and I can't see a building with a bunch of parking around it OR a facility that swamps the instrastructure of the entire area as being revitalizing friendly.

    As for parking in the NE and taking the LRT...what if I live in the West end or SE end or Millwoods? I'm not going up to Clairview :P Waaaait...just another reason to build out the darn LRT system!
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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    I think the new arena will need space for trucks, busses and RVs, especially when concerts come into town. Also, I think that people who rent out boxes, or spend $5000 or more on an Oiler's season ticket will want the perks when it comes to parking. They will want it on site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    IanO, i'm pretty sure MylesC is referring to the need to accommodate full semi-trailer traffic in and out of suitable loading facilities for the building not just for supplies and garbage etc. but for the "travelling road shows" arriving with their own stage sets and lighting and all of the other paraphernalia needed to put on the shows.
    Nope...although if a rink didn't have a loading area for semitrucks someone would have to be thoroughly beaten and chased out of the City.

    I was talking about larger vehicles. If a person has a large vehicle like a truck, SUV, etc, etc, there is very few options for parking right in the core if one wants an underground option.
    ...
    sorry MylesC, i misunderstood. if it makes you feel any better, our design heights for the underground parking were based on a lincoln navigator with 20" wheels and a thule luggae rack with skis on top on the assumption that someone will rent one at the airport and drive into the parkade regardless of clearances so they better be set not to take out sprinkler heads and mechanical lines etc... for what it's worth brian, over time we will be able to convert those spaces to two smart cars each (which will give us extra leeds points for future phases when it happens grish).
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor
    for what it's worth brian, over time we will be able to convert those spaces to two smart cars each (which will give us extra leeds points for future phases when it happens grish).
    Not especially, since it means twice as many cars on the road.

    The big thing I'm really concerned with is the amount, but I'm not sure I'm able to get a straight answer out of you. You had me under the impression it was 850 for the whole development.

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    Default New Arena | Entertainment | Discussion

    I'm starting this new thread to concentrate all the information that will no doubt start pouring in later this morning.

    When posting articles, make sure to include just a bit of the article here and provide links to the original source.

    So far we have the following articles:

    1

    Report backs arena

    Tax dollars urged in building of $450M downtown rink
    Scott McKeen, The Edmonton Journal
    Published: 7:06 am

    EDMONTON - A new arena in Edmonton's downtown is not just feasible, but desirable.

    So says a report to be made public today by a committee struck last year by Mayor Stephen Mandel. The report will be officially released at an 11 a.m. news conference. Mandel will then comment in a noon speech to the Downtown Business Association.

    According to my sources, the committee estimates the cost of a new downtown arena to be $450 million. Granted, the number seems astronomical -- Rexall Place was built for $15 million in the mid-1970s -- until you put it in a contemporary perspective. The soon-to-be-started overpass on 23rd Avenue, for example, is pegged at $260 million.

    The $450-million estimate is also far lower than some of the gaudy numbers tossed around by critics, who said a new downtown arena would cost as much as $1 billion.

    Incoming Edmonton Oilers owner Daryl Katz has already offered $100 million to a new downtown arena project. Note that Katz's offer was not extended to the other option -- renovating Rexall Place at an estimated $250-million cost.

    2

    Arena expected to pay own way

    Report must outline ways to fund facility without tax hike, councillor says
    Gordon Kent, The Edmonton Journal
    Published: 3:34 am

    EDMONTON -- A long-awaited report set for release today on a new Edmonton arena must suggest ways to build it without boosting city taxes, Coun. Bryan Anderson says.

    "I don't think there is support in the city of Edmonton for any kind of surcharge on property taxes like St. Albert ... and Sherwood Park did to support their recreation centres, or a tax increase," he said on Monday.

    "I do think that council will listen to redevelopment levies, to tax incentives ... I think that it's the Oilers organization and the development community and the business end of our environment here in Edmonton that's going to have to build it."

    The study, originally expected in December, is to be made public at an 11 a.m. news conference after city council is briefed privately.

    Businessman Lyle Best headed up the nine-member committee.

    Mayor Stephen Mandel, who supports putting the arena downtown to help revitalize the area, wouldn't discuss the scheme until the report is made public. But he agreed people are eager for details.

    3

    Boyle Renaissance a terrific plan

    But creating a new form of supportive housing community must be planned and executed with care
    Paula Simons, The Edmonton Journal
    Published: 8:34 am
    It's called the Boyle Renaissance. Depending on who you talk to, it's either a visionary plan to revitalize one of the downtown's bleakest pockets while providing state-of-the-art supportive housing -- or it's a naive disaster-in-the-making that could turn blocks of central Edmonton into an American-style urban ghetto.

    Today, as part of his address to a sold-out Downtown Business Association luncheon, Mayor Stephen Mandel will officially outline his plan to redevelop a parcel east of the main downtown police station, near the seedy York Hotel.

    For months, the city has been working quietly to purchase and assemble a brownfield site near 94th St. and 103A Ave. The plan isn't to turn the site into a whole bunch of homeless shelters and subsidized housing units, but to develop a new kind of supportive housing community. The city's plan calls for development of 900 beds. There are still a lot of details to be worked out, the general proposal suggests there would be 75 "boarding school" beds for homeless and at-risk teens attending the Inner-City High School, about 200 to 300 "extended care" beds, run by Capital Health, for the elderly and frail, some transitional family housing run by the YMCA, and perhaps a seniors residence, designed to meet the needs of aboriginal elders. The mayor's office is also talking about making affordable housing available within the development for care providers, such as nursing aides, youth workers and addictions counsellors -- people who are employed, working to help the homeless in the inner city, but who earn such low wages they can scarcely afford market rents themselves.

    4

    Excitement builds over arena report

    A long-awaited report on a new arena to replace Edmonton's aging Rexall Place will be released Tuesday.

    Edmonton Mayor Stephen Mandel appointed a panel last April to study whether to renovate the current arena, home to the Edmonton Oilers, or build a new one, likely in the downtown core.

    A task force report on building a new arena to replace Rexall Place will be released Tuesday.
    (CBC) "I got to tell you it's hard to believe there is so much excitement about a report," Mandel said Monday. But the mayor wouldn't provide any hint of what the report recommends.

    That is up to Lyle Best, the chair of the task force, to reveal, Mandel said, referring to a news conference set for 11 a.m. Tuesday.

    Members of city council will be briefed on the recommendations beforehand, he added.

    Interest in the issue is so strong that a speech by Mandel to Edmonton's Downtown Business Association, scheduled for Tuesday at noon, has attracted 350 people, said chair John Frederickson.

    "This is really a catalyst to a redevelopment of a district rather than an arena," Frederickson said.

    "The arena is part of an entertainment complex that then leads to redevelopment and revitalization of whatever section of downtown it ends up in," he said, adding that a proposed arena would likely include hotels and retail, commercial and residential units.

    5

    Door not quite shut on provincial aid

    Despite Stelmach's stand, city MLAs say they'd consider a funding request
    Jason Markusoff, The Edmonton Journal
    Published: 3:33 am
    EDMONTON - It sounds like a tempting solution for a downtown Edmonton hockey arena -- a new Oilers home paid with Alberta's oil wealth.

    Although taxpayer dollars have repeatedly been used before to construct or upgrade National Hockey League rinks, provincial politicians are carefully guarding the vault, but not locking it.

    Premier Ed Stelmach seemed to shoot down the idea of financially supporting an arena last December when Daryl Katz, who now owns the Edmonton Oilers, first offered $100 million towards a new arena. Stelmach said a hockey venue was a private-sector matter, and "has nothing to do with the infrastructure that's necessary to help grow the value-added (industry) in the area."

    Edmonton MLAs shared some of the premier's cynicism Monday, on the eve of a hotly anticipated report on the arena question. But they insisted there's still room for debate, if and when the requests actually come.

    "I would keep an open mind about it," said Tony Vandermeer, Conservative MLA for Edmonton-Beverly-Clareview.
    Last edited by MylesC; 25-03-2008 at 10:57 AM.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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    an hour and 20 minutes to go!

  50. #50

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    Ched has a POLL
    http://630ched.com/

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    I signed up on CBC just to counter the fuddy-duddies that didnt' want to spend money.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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    It's an exciting time to be an Edmontonian

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    Quote Originally Posted by MylesC View Post
    I signed up on CBC just to counter the fuddy-duddies that didnt' want to spend money.
    http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...na-report.html

    the comments are pretty lame so far....

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    Is this going to be LIVE on any radio stations? CBC/Ched? I suppose I could have both radios going...

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    Are we really expecting much in the report? Per the journal, all it is going to do is say that the Arena should go downtown, give some advice on bars, parks, etc., attached to it, then push it back to Northlands / Oilers to bring back a proposal. No specific location will be suggested, as that could effect land values.

    http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...a0&k=39546&p=1

    A mortgage against future tax dollars, elimnation of current subsidy to Rexall arena, and possibly redeveloping Northlands as an urban village are suggested as funding sources that will not "hurt" taxpayers.

  56. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Are we really expecting much in the report? Per the journal, all it is going to do is say that the Arena should go downtown, give some advice on bars, parks, etc., attached to it, then push it back to Northlands / Oilers to bring back a proposal. No specific location will be suggested, as that could effect land values.

    http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourna...a0&k=39546&p=1
    It won't give many details; as it's all theoretical at this point - but it's key in moving forward on the issue.

    What's worse that squabbling on an idea? Preferable Timeline:

    - viability/cost analysis (this report)
    - tender for design
    - appoint design
    - tender for construction
    - appoint construction
    - shovel-in-ground

    And when it comes to big projects like this; any sort of movement is postitive....

  57. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Foster View Post
    What's worse that squabbling on an idea? Preferable Timeline:

    - viability/cost analysis (this report)
    - tender for design
    - appoint design
    - tender for construction
    - appoint construction
    - shovel-in-ground

    And when it comes to big projects like this; any sort of movement is postitive....
    I hope you are right - and that we do not also get after 1:

    -evaluate / squable over alternative low cost alternatives that are proposed a few days after this report.

    If the city can just say, bring back a financing plan which we will consider and approve - then let the owners choose / negotiate the location downtown, and work through your points above - that would be great IMO.

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    Interesting, I just heard one option for financing is to sell the land to the feds for $1; and then get federal infastructure grant money back to help with construction costs

    Apparently they did this last time they reno'd rexall...

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    live on 630 ched
    Last edited by NINTman; 25-03-2008 at 12:30 PM.

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    Exclamation

    Notes from CHED News Conference

    From: Lyle Best, Chair of the Feasibility Committee

    Mandate:

    To establish feasibility to have a downtown arena, where it would go and how it would be financed.

    Considerations:

    Don’t just drop it anywhere and financing.
    Checked out best practices of other North American cities.

    Goal:
    Opportunity to have a new sports facility and economic viability. Mentioned Columbus.

    Oilers are main tenants and this was factored into recommendations.

    Arena must be multi-purpose.

    LRT must be utilized more.

    MADE in EDMONTON financial solution.

    Should (MUST) be downtown—must be downtown for economic purposes, for growth and for revitalization.
    Last edited by EdmontonInfo; 25-03-2008 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Wonky formatting

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    ^^ wow that was fast...

    I think it makes a big difference to have an official press conference. :-0
    It's not new stuff, but still a very important in establishing political momentum...bringing up that we need more vibrancy downtown, the arena complex must be of great design, etc, etc.
    Last edited by NINTman; 25-03-2008 at 12:49 PM.

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    The committee also concluded a prospective $450 million new facility is financially feasible, and is best approached through a mix of public and private participation,” said Charlotte Robb, spokesperson for the Finance Subcommittee.

    “We are confident this can be achieved with no tax increases and no re-allocation of funding for the city’s infrastructure. While there is room for government to contribute, similar to what has happened with the Art Gallery of Alberta or the Winspear Centre, contributions can take many forms.”
    The committee’s work identified several potential sites in the downtown that could accommodate any new facility. Specific sites were not named for commercial and competitive reasons.

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    Tue, March 25, 2008

    Downtown area gets the nod

    '$450 million new facility is financially feasible': report

    By Sun Media
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmo...5/5098601.html


    A new arena is feasible and should go downtown, says the leadership committee evaluating whether to build a new barn.

    “A new sports and entertainment facility can and should be the heart of a revitalized, urban district downtown,” said committee chair Lyle Best.

    The report was released this morning. The committee reached its conclusions after studying other cities, examining financial models and considering community and design scenarios over the past several months.

  65. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by NINTman View Post
    ^^ wow that was fast...

    I think it makes a big difference to have an official press conference. :-0
    It's not new stuff, but still a very important in establishing political momentum...bringing up that we need more vibrancy downtown, the arena complex must be of great design, etc, etc.
    Yup. Good thing it's on CHED as well - will get out to alot of sports fans/potential users of this site.

  66. #66

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    I'm so glad they said this:

    "There is already an ample supply of parking downtown"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Foster View Post
    I'm so glad they said this:

    "There is already an ample supply of parking downtown"
    love the example they provide of 35000 people at new years eve dispersing without over crowding and traffic tie-ups. a double promo of the transportation strength of the core and of the new years eve event for the future!

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    Default Committee says facility feasible, has to be downtown.

    CITY NEWS RELEASE:

    Committee says new arena feasible in the downtown-core

    NOON
    EDMONTON/630 CHED

    3/25/2008

    Committee says facility feasible, has to be downtown.

    Identifies potential to revitalize an entire urban district.

    Edmonton, March 25, 2008 – A new sports and entertainment facility that would be the catalyst for, and centerpiece of, a revitalized downtown is both feasible and desirable, concludes the Leadership Committee evaluating whether to build a new arena in Edmonton.

    “There’s never been a better time to have this discussion,” said committee chair Lyle Best. “There’s a clear challenge to Edmonton at this unique time, to be leaders and builders — to be visionary. A new sports and entertainment facility can and should be the heart of a revitalized, urban district downtown.”

    The committee reached its conclusions after studying other cities, examining financial models and considering community and design scenarios over the past several months.

    “A new facility presents an opportunity to take Edmonton to a new level as a world-class city, and it could not be more timely, exciting and worthy of pursuit,” said Bard Golightly, spokesperson for the Community and Design Subcommittee. “But any new facility should be an integral part of an ongoing mixed-use development. It should be creative, inspiring, sustainable and accessible,” he added.

    The committee also concluded a prospective $450 million new facility is financially feasible, and is best approached through a mix of public and private participation,” said Charlotte Robb, spokesperson for the Finance Subcommittee. “We are confident this can be achieved with no tax increases and no re-allocation of funding for the city’s infrastructure. While there is room for government to contribute, similar to what has happened with the Art Gallery of Alberta or the Winspear Centre, contributions can take many forms.”

    The committee’s work identified several potential sites in the downtown that could accommodate any new facility. Specific sites were not named for commercial and competitive reasons.

    The committee further recommends:

    · That the design and programming of the facility include ways in which it can revitalize and develop the surrounding urban district and spur redevelopment of Edmonton’s downtown core.

    · That the sports/entertainment facility be a unique design that is environmentally sustainable, using LEED (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) criteria.

    · The use of a community revitalization levy as part of the financing arrangements and one of the ways to spur development in a downtown area.

    Mayor Stephen Mandel formed the committee in April 2007, after Northlands had commissioned HOK Sport to evaluate the cost of renovating Rexall Place. The committee commissioned further studies from HOK Sport; Conventions, Sports and Leisure International; and Cleveland State University Professor Mark Rosentraub, and visited arenas and downtowns in Columbus and Kansas City in arriving at its recommendations.


    Backgrounder

    QUESTIONS & ANSWERS


    What are the committee’s conclusions?

    · A new sports and entertainment facility can be the catalyst and centrepiece of a revitalized downtown Edmonton.

    · Based on the committee’s analysis and assumptions, such a facility is financially feasible.

    · The timing is right for Edmonton. Rexall Place needs replacement or modernization in order to build on its proven record as a top-tier destination for entertainment and sporting events. The expected economic growth and population influx to the city provides an opportunity to revitalize downtown.


    How did the committee come to its conclusions? What research did it conduct?

    · They consulted with sports, business and community organizations in Edmonton and throughout North America.

    · They commissioned internationally recognized experts to conduct research, the results of which have been incorporated into the report.


    How will a new arena be better for Edmonton than refurbishing Rexall Place?

    · Refurbishing doesn’t get the city further ahead. A new facility offers more financial flexibility. There is more ability for a new facility to attract private dollars than the existing Rexall Place.

    · Ultimately there is so much more potential for the city and region as a whole to consider the benefits of making an arena just one part of a revitalized sports and entertainment district that is well-integrated with the downtown as a whole.

    How realistic is the $450 million estimate to build a new arena, given Edmonton’s construction boom?

    · The committee believes it is very realistic. Note that any inflationary impacts will equally affect renovations of the current Rexall site.

    How should the new arena be financed?

    · The committee researched facilities that were financed entirely privately and publicly as well as those that received mixed financing. Given the scale of investment required and the potential impact a new arena would have on the community, the most appropriate funding structure involved both private and public participation.

    · There are many options, many tools — lots of flexibility. The next step is to have the stakeholders examine all the options and come up with a specific proposal.

    How much did it cost to put together the report?

    · The City, Northlands and the Oilers each paid less than $100,000.

    · The majority of the cost went to the commissioned studies by HOK Sport, and Conventions, Sports and Leisure International.

    The committee commissioned consultants to study the arena’s feasibility. Why have their two reports not been made public?

    · The consultant reports contain competitive private business information; the confidentiality of that information needs to be respected. In addition, the committee did not wish to cause speculative issues with respect to downtown lands.

    · However, the knowledge and learning provided by the reports has been incorporated into the committee’s recommendations. The studies will be available to stakeholders who carry the next steps forward.

    How was the cost of the new arena arrived at? How does this compare with the cost to refurbish Rexall Place?

    · The committee looked at all the arenas that have been built and projected using 2014 dollars, as well as the full scope of what the peripheral development could be.

    · It’s a question of a renovation that may not be sufficient versus seizing on a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

    If this new arena goes ahead, what will happen to Rexall Place?

    · That has to be determined by the City and Northlands. It may be that this discussion presents better and wider opportunities for redevelopment in that area.

    How might a new arena affect Northlands?

    · Northlands is about more than just a site and the committee believes Northlands could continue to be an important part of a downtown facility. Certainly the next step will be for the Oilers and Northlands to work out how this moves forward, and to ultimately structure a specific proposal.

    How has Daryl Katz, the new Oilers owner, been involved?

    · The committee has relied on Mr. Katz’s public commitments, but has not spoken directly to Mr. Katz. Any business dealings between Mr. Katz and the Oilers remain between those two parties, and it should be noted that his purchase of the team is not yet final.

    · The next steps for this report will involve both the Oilers and Northlands. (ccg)

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    Looking at the report, since it recommends a facility of about 750 000 sq. feet does this effectively exclude the post office site?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdmontonInfo View Post
    The committee commissioned consultants to study the arena’s feasibility. Why have their two reports not been made public?

    · The consultant reports contain competitive private business information; the confidentiality of that information needs to be respected. In addition, the committee did not wish to cause speculative issues with respect to downtown lands.

    · However, the knowledge and learning provided by the reports has been incorporated into the committee’s recommendations. The studies will be available to stakeholders who carry the next steps forward.
    When is our next milestone (i.e. when will the location be revealed)? How long will this process take?

    Aren't the citizens of Edmonton "stakeholders" in this? I'm sure that the best location will be arrived at regardless, but I'm just putting my minor complaint on record. I'd like to know where these 5-6 potential locations are.

  71. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude View Post
    Aren't the citizens of Edmonton "stakeholders" in this? I'm sure that the best location will be arrived at regardless, but I'm just putting my minor complaint on record. I'd like to know where these 5-6 potential locations are.
    I couldn't care less to be honest, as long as it is in the core. Rather they keep a few options quietly open so the best possible deal can be negotiated, rather than have a second class development due to inflated costs. It's a bit like an LRT route - all routes have pros and cons, but the destination is what matters. Provided the arena happens downtown, I will be thrilled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude View Post
    Aren't the citizens of Edmonton "stakeholders" in this? I'm sure that the best location will be arrived at regardless, but I'm just putting my minor complaint on record. I'd like to know where these 5-6 potential locations are.
    I couldn't care less to be honest, as long as it is in the core. Rather they keep a few options quietly open so the best possible deal can be negotiated, rather than have a second class development due to inflated costs. It's a bit like an LRT route - all routes have pros and cons, but the destination is what matters. Provided the arena happens downtown, I will be thrilled.

    For sure, me too. I'm just expressing what many are probably thinking. We wait this long for the report and we still don't know where these other 4-5 location options are. It's not even so much a complaint as I realize that for speculative reasons they would want to have this info remain under wraps. I guess it's kind of like a kid waiting to open presents on Christmas day.

    I... just... can't... wait...

    ...but I'll have to. Oh well, yet more time to ponder and debate with fellow C2E posters.

  73. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetcrude View Post
    I... just... can't... wait...
    ...but I'll have to. Oh well, yet more time to ponder and debate with fellow C2E posters.
    Agreed - maybe you should start yet another Arena thread - where would you like it to go downtown?

  74. #74

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    I'm guessing the next announcement is completely dependent on land acquisition or at least an option to acquire the required land. What is interesting is how far along, if at all, that discussion is. Given that the HOK report has likely been in for a while now, there must be some movement going on behind the scenes.

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    I've posted extensively on this topic before, as I'm sure many of you remember, but the fact that "the committee looked at a number of possible sites, but won't reveal them for fear of causing land speculation", is a little dubious.

    Where this thing is going is of paramount importance:

    Preferable Timeline:

    - viability/cost analysis (this report)
    - location/traffic analysis
    - tender for design
    - appoint design
    - tender for construction
    - appoint construction
    - shovel-in-ground
    To summarize:

    A new arena alone won't rejuvenate downtown or fix the problems on the east side of 97th street.

    There's already a lot of cultural, civic, and commercial institutions nearby, such as city hall, churchill square, two malls, the library, art gallery, winspear centre and the citadel within a couple blocks. After a lack of physical space for complimentary business, retail and public space - parking and traffic are the two largest issues for the currently proposed location at the mail depot across from city hall. Also, who will pay for a 97th Street LRT station, and where will all the rest of the complex get built?

    There needs to be a much more broad investment into social and economic factors that cause the urban blight, and I think Mandel is very aware of that. We need to be very careful about the placement of the new arena and consider all possible options before moving forward.

    Here's just one:

    A Municipals Lands re-development has been talked about more recently in conjunction with both our potential bid for the World's Fair in 2017, and a massive urban village ala` Century Park supported by North LRT expansion. Why not build the new arena on the corner of Kingsway and Princess Elizabeth Avenues? It could share a station with NAIT and/or Kingsway on the currently proposed north LRT line, and could be a keystone catalyst for a new cultural, commercial and entertainment district on the south end of a 100,000 person community on the former airport lands. The International can absorb the air traffic, and the Yellowhead and other arterials can absorb the vehicular traffic related to games that so often clogs 75th street. Imagine 97th, Jasper Avenue, and 104th avenue before and after games downtown.

    Yikes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleisthenis View Post
    I've posted extensively on this topic before, as I'm sure many of you remember, but the fact that "the committee looked at a number of possible sites, but won't reveal them for fear of causing land speculation", is a little dubious.

    Where this thing is going is of paramount importance:

    Preferable Timeline:

    - viability/cost analysis (this report)
    - location/traffic analysis
    - tender for design
    - appoint design
    - tender for construction
    - appoint construction
    - shovel-in-ground
    To summarize:

    A new arena alone won't rejuvenate downtown or fix the problems on the east side of 97th street.

    There's already a lot of cultural, civic, and commercial institutions nearby, such as city hall, churchill square, two malls, the library, art gallery, winspear centre and the citadel within a couple blocks. After a lack of physical space for complimentary business, retail and public space - parking and traffic are the two largest issues for the currently proposed location at the mail depot across from city hall. Also, who will pay for a 97th Street LRT station, and where will all the rest of the complex get built?

    There needs to be a much more broad investment into social and economic factors that cause the urban blight, and I think Mandel is very aware of that. We need to be very careful about the placement of the new arena and consider all possible options before moving forward.

    Here's just one:

    A Municipals Lands re-development has been talked about more recently in conjunction with both our potential bid for the World's Fair in 2017, and a massive urban village ala` Century Park supported by North LRT expansion. Why not build the new arena on the corner of Kingsway and Princess Elizabeth Avenues? It could share a station with NAIT and/or Kingsway on the currently proposed north LRT line, and could be a keystone catalyst for a new cultural, commercial and entertainment district on the south end of a 100,000 person community on the former airport lands. The International can absorb the air traffic, and the Yellowhead and other arterials can absorb the vehicular traffic related to games that so often clogs 75th street. Imagine 97th, Jasper Avenue, and 104th avenue before and after games downtown.

    Yikes.


    THANK YOU !,Hope more people see this !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleisthenis View Post
    Why not build the new arena on the corner of Kingsway and Princess Elizabeth Avenues? It could share a station with NAIT and/or Kingsway on the currently proposed north LRT line, and could be a keystone catalyst for a new cultural, commercial and entertainment district on the south end of a 100,000 person community on the former airport lands. The International can absorb the air traffic, and the Yellowhead and other arterials can absorb the vehicular traffic related to games that so often clogs 75th street.
    If you change a few words, this could be the exact same proposal from 30 years ago that justified putting the Colusieum where it is.

    Plenty of open space, freeways, lrt!

    An arena in the middle of nowhere will be nothing more than an arena in the middle of nowhere. If you put it where land is cheap, then that cheap land will be used for parking. Hello, Rexall II.

    Sorry, but this is doomed to failure.
    Last edited by newfangled; 25-03-2008 at 03:04 PM. Reason: spelling

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    I'm not advocating plenty of open space or new freeways.

    I'm advocating that the city look at a feasibility study of turning the Municipal Lands into a medium-to high density urban village.

    That was never part of the planning for the Coliseum.

    The LRT was only ever first built to deal with parking for the Commonwealth games.

    There is a new environmental and economic reality that dictates the prudence and wisdom in having 100,000 people living and working close to the core and not on the fringe of it.

    Choose your battles wisely newfangled.

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    Put 100k people there, but don't pin your hopes for redvelopment on an arena.

    A downtown arena isn't about redevelopment - it's about better use of existing resources. You want sustainability and environmental reality - we already have downtown roads, parking, restaurants, stores, streetfront retail, and residences. An arena would allow us to utilize all of those more.

    But using an arena to kickstart redevelopment of the muni means rebuilding that entire walkable infrastructure, and hoping that it works. And if it doesn't work and you don't hit that critical mass then you've got Rexall.

    The downtown has that critical mass, and it will continue with or without an arena. But an arena would be a nice addition.

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    Just finished reading the entire 42 page report and i do have to say that it was very well presented.

    I strongly believe we need to look at all options, but firmly believe we will end up with the most practical, viable, and reasonable location being downtown along 104ave either at 101st or 97st.

    I really do hope the citizens of Edmonton see beyond the "taj mahal for millionaire players" when "potholes needs a fixin' ".
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  81. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    I strongly believe we need to look at all options, but firmly believe we will end up with the most practical, viable, and reasonable location being downtown along 104ave either at 101st or 97st.
    I think I agree with that - although other locations might be kept on the table for the moment. If there is a traffic difficult area of downtown, it probably is Jasper, which might make me a bit uncomfortable if it went in around Corona station.

  82. #82

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    There was alot of reference to Nationwide Arena in Columbus...

    I never knew how similar our downtown's and lot's for construction are...



    Even though Edmonton's downtown appears built up a little more...

    Something like this would do (as far as massing goes.. not the structure itself..); with less surface parking.

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    ^hence why they used "certain cities" as examples;_)
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  84. #84

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    I thought the most important point made in the report was that building an arena outside of downtown will make it non-viable for private investment. As a result, any new arena outside of downtown would require much larger proportion of public funding.

    It seems to me that not revealing potential locations is a rather intelligent decision. I imagine speculation pricing will already be built into particular lots because of the potential for this. However, keeping the exact or best location quiet will keep it to a minimum. Seems like the city cannot win on things like this. If they had revealed everyone would say they were naive.

    Lets keep in mind that that this was a diverse committee, representing a variety of interests. I think implying some bias in not revealing potential sites is dubious without some evidence of bad faith. Lets see where the parties involved take this next.

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    I wrote this on the Edmonton Journal sound off page...

    "I live on the south side as well, but I want to see this go ahead. I want this city to have a district where I can be proud to bring my out of town friends to. And LIKE THE REPORT SUGGESTED, this arena will only work if it is part of a major residential/commercial complex.

    And it's ironic for people to say that "oh this isn't going to benefit me", when they start suggesting that we should use the money (public or private) for things that "everyone will benefit from in one way or another". I may not use the new sports complex every single time there's an Oilers game, but I do want to see it help revitalize downtown and make it more liveable and vibrant (this isn't the be-all-end-all solution for downtown, but it certainly will help).

    Cities much greater than us didn't shy away letting opportunities like these pass. Edmonton is already a major metropolitan city on this continent, we should definitely start acting like a major city."

    ... hope it makes sense!

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    ^well said.

    should people that dont own a car pay for roads?

    should people who are not sick pay for hospitals?

    should people who are not in school pay for school?

    should people who dont go to south edmonton common pay for the interchange?

    etc. etc.
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  87. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^well said.

    should people that dont own a car pay for roads?
    NO! We should have road pricing because people can walk without costing others a penny!
    should people who are not sick pay for hospitals?
    YES! Basic health care is not a "perk" or a "lifestyle choice"
    should people who are not in school pay for school?
    YES! Because we all went to school, and also we all want smart staff in the old folks home when we get there.
    should people who dont go to south edmonton common pay for the interchange?
    NO! Because we should have road pricing (see above).
    etc. etc.
    Lux's answers in blue!

    That being said, the kind of city we aspire to is the kind of city with good landmark facilities. We wouldn't take London as seriously without Wembley, or Sydney without Stadium Australia. (Yes I know I'm comparing apples to arenas). So let's upgrade.

    We also aspire to be the kind of city with an active private sector, and a city with proud corporate patrons. So the private sector needs to step up for the bulk of the costs of this facility.

    However, I believe the "payoff" argument for the general good of the city. I believe the city can justify some degree of contribution. I believe that amount should be fairly limited, and based on the difference between what the existing arena does for the City's bottom line and what the new arena can do. And that concession should be "payable on actuals."

    (Show me the growth and then I'll show you the tax money...)

    Also, the RISK has to be shared with the private sector and contractually enforced. If things do not go according to plan, that means private investors lose their investment, it does not mean the City steps in to clean up the mess and insulate investors from poor planning.
    City Centre Airport is to the sky as False Creek is to the ocean.

  88. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by lux View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^well said.

    should people that dont own a car pay for roads?
    NO! We should have road pricing because people can walk without costing others a penny!
    should people who are not sick pay for hospitals?
    YES! Basic health care is not a "perk" or a "lifestyle choice"
    should people who are not in school pay for school?
    YES! Because we all went to school, and also we all want smart staff in the old folks home when we get there.
    should people who dont go to south edmonton common pay for the interchange?
    NO! Because we should have road pricing (see above).
    etc. etc.
    Lux's answers in blue!
    We could debtate those points forever (i.e. why should a healthy lifestyle person pay for a lazy sick one, or a walker not pay for sidewalks, or a homeschooler pay for schools etc.), but I think the point is, that some things will always be shared costs for the benefit of all. That's why we elect governments, to make those decisions, showing leadership in the process.

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    As long as Katz is ponying up for a good chunk of the new arena, building it outside of downtown (may it be at the Muni or Northlands) is a non-starter.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  90. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by moahunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lux View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^well said.

    should people that dont own a car pay for roads?
    NO! We should have road pricing because people can walk without costing others a penny!
    should people who are not sick pay for hospitals?
    YES! Basic health care is not a "perk" or a "lifestyle choice"
    should people who are not in school pay for school?
    YES! Because we all went to school, and also we all want smart staff in the old folks home when we get there.
    should people who dont go to south edmonton common pay for the interchange?
    NO! Because we should have road pricing (see above).
    etc. etc.
    Lux's answers in blue!
    We could debtate those points forever (i.e. why should a healthy lifestyle person pay for a lazy sick one, or a walker not pay for sidewalks, or a homeschooler pay for schools etc.), but I think the point is, that some things will always be shared costs for the benefit of all. That's why we elect governments, to make those decisions, showing leadership in the process.
    Yeah, and I know it is off-topic, but there is no consensus on what those common responsibilities should be, and some are clearer than others...so I start prioritizing. To our elected leaders, I put the river valley alliance plans on a much higher plane than a new arena, both for all the same kind of development & renewal benefits we expect to see from the arena (Rundle Park needs a little help and some community renewal too), and because it would actually get Edmontonians into the valley doing things rather than sitting on their butts watching millionaires play hockey. So if private people want to do it with a limited and well-defined small tax contribution, sure. Otherwise we have bigger fish to fry.
    City Centre Airport is to the sky as False Creek is to the ocean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IGNITERS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleisthenis View Post
    and the Yellowhead and other arterials can absorb the vehicular traffic related to games that so often clogs 75th street. Imagine 97th, Jasper Avenue, and 104th avenue before and after games downtown.

    Yikes.
    THANK YOU !,Hope more people see this !
    me too! because that's exactly what 97th, jasper avenue, and 104 avenue before and after games should be like. except that it won't all be vehicular traffic the way it is now. much of it will be pedestrian, even if it's walking back and forth to where your car was parked or to the lrt or to your hotel or to and from a lounge for a drink or a restaurant for dinner... and hopefully it will take place for a full hour or two before the game and for another hour or two after the game - or the concert or the awards ceremony or the convention opening and closing ceremony or whatever else is going on - not because you're waiting to get out of a parking lot at northlands but because you want to. and if you don't want to, it will still be faster to leave than it is from northlands. that's what downtown's are for and that's why any new arena should be downtown - it's not only about the arena and it's not only about downtown, it's about the synergy and the richer quality of life they foster when they're done right together.
    "If you did not want much, there was plenty." Harper Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IGNITERS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleisthenis View Post
    and the Yellowhead and other arterials can absorb the vehicular traffic related to games that so often clogs 75th street. Imagine 97th, Jasper Avenue, and 104th avenue before and after games downtown.

    Yikes.
    THANK YOU !,Hope more people see this !
    me too! because that's exactly what 97th, jasper avenue, and 104 avenue before and after games should be like. except that it won't all be vehicular traffic the way it is now. much of it will be pedestrian, even if it's walking back and forth to where your car was parked or to the lrt or to your hotel or to and from a lounge for a drink or a restaurant for dinner... and hopefully it will take place for a full hour or two before the game and for another hour or two after the game - or the concert or the awards ceremony or the convention opening and closing ceremony or whatever else is going on - not because you're waiting to get out of a parking lot at northlands but because you want to. and if you don't want to, it will still be faster to leave than it is from northlands. that's what downtown's are for and that's why any new arena should be downtown - it's not only about the arena and it's not only about downtown, it's about the synergy and the richer quality of life they foster when they're done right together.

    bingo...we need some "congestion" downtown...
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IGNITERS View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleisthenis View Post
    and the Yellowhead and other arterials can absorb the vehicular traffic related to games that so often clogs 75th street. Imagine 97th, Jasper Avenue, and 104th avenue before and after games downtown.

    Yikes.
    THANK YOU !,Hope more people see this !
    me too! because that's exactly what 97th, jasper avenue, and 104 avenue before and after games should be like. except that it won't all be vehicular traffic the way it is now. much of it will be pedestrian, even if it's walking back and forth to where your car was parked or to the lrt or to your hotel or to and from a lounge for a drink or a restaurant for dinner... and hopefully it will take place for a full hour or two before the game and for another hour or two after the game - or the concert or the awards ceremony or the convention opening and closing ceremony or whatever else is going on - not because you're waiting to get out of a parking lot at northlands but because you want to. and if you don't want to, it will still be faster to leave than it is from northlands. that's what downtown's are for and that's why any new arena should be downtown - it's not only about the arena and it's not only about downtown, it's about the synergy and the richer quality of life they foster when they're done right together.

    bingo...we need some "congestion" downtown...
    For the record, I'm not against the downtown location, or a moderate/measured increase of vehicular traffic balanced against an increase in LRT and transit usage as well as foot traffic in the vicinity.

    The problem lies in so much momentum and pressure going to putting an complex of this size at any location, downtown or otherwise without doing a detailed and comparative impact analysis of traffic and congestion.

    The sooner we can do such a study, the sooner we can go about designing ways to minimize and reduce those costs and inefficiencies, and make an enlightened decision before moving to the design stage.

    My hesitancy for supporting the 97th street location blindly, is caused by three key factors that need to be addressed and haven't been yet:

    1. Access
    The 97th street location, while within walking distance from Churchill station, is considerably further from the proposed entrance than the Coliseum station is now. Assuming LRT ridership to and from the game stays relatively constant, we can effectively say that there will still be thousands of vehicles heading to and from the arena 30 minutes before, and 30 minutes after the game. Again, congestion of 75th street and other major arterials is just a taste of what it will be like on 97th (north) and 99th streets (south) as well as Jasper, and 104th Avenues.

    Can downtown take it? Probably. But how is parking going to be distributed, and knowing rush-hour is lasting longer and longer these days past 6 - 6:30 pm, to assume that the vehicular traffic of the arena won't impact general traffic flows for a 6 or 7 pm game is ludicrous. In 20-30 years when Edmonton is almost 2 million people, are we really going to want this added vehicular pressure? The solution maybe an additional 97th street LRT station, and park and ride program on the spokes of the LRT network, but this has to be a part of the planning and location decision making process.

    Someone above posted with respect to access to the venue for large trucks and semis. This needs to be addressed as well.

    2. Investment
    The debate over what mix of private or public partnership is a mute point at best and a red herring at worst. Of course those who stand to benefit from the investment should put up the initial capital and equity to get projects like this built, but thinking that there should be no public funds at all is just as short-sighted as thinking that Katz and other business interests don't need any help in getting this done. The city, and province are going to have to be involved in terms of a coordinated project for the entire area, as any private investment of this level is an opportunity for new taxes and the opportunity to shape the landscape of the urban environment in terms of visual and social appeal.

    Not to mention that the city and province SHOULD get involved as capital investors in terms of making this a revenue property and asset that we can use to our benefit as an on-going revenue stream.

    3. Impact
    Therefore, if the public is going to be involved and if this is going to be a catalyst for many hundreds of millions of social and community investment dollars, then we need to be as open-minded and as prudent as possible in deciding where it goes.

    Do we place it within a couple blocks of all the other marquee and signature cultural and social institutions that we have, and where there are a number of projects already in motion or being planned to "revitalize" and densify the area, (quarters, station lands etc.) ?

    Or do we maximize the total investment by anchoring it into a currently underutilized massive brown zone, (ECCA) which is close enough to the core to maintain relative efficiencies, but not too close as to cause a congestion problem down the line?

    I say the later is the best option, but again, I want to see a separate study that compares ALL the possible locations including Municipal Lands, and other downtown locations.

  94. #94

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    Your reasons for questioning the 97st location may be valid. However, we have no idea what conclusions HOK reached on the 6 potential locations. There is no indication they favoured the post office site, or any other. We're simply speculating. However, given their track record, I will be extremely interested to see the conclusions.

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    Personally, I am so tired of the "Oh my God, the traffic, the traffic, THE TRAFFIC" argument I could puke. Seriously folks. Think.

    This downtown worker hits peak rush hour in and out of the core. Every day...for the past few years since moving back, I've done the drive from the West End, and from other areas, and seriously, traffic in Edmonton is a downright JOKE except for that other joke called funnelling the entire west end through SPR and 142 street. I get into and out of the core quite easily thank you very much. Compared to other cities I've lived in, traffic and Edmonton = HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...not.

    More people commute into and out of the core by car during these rush hours that would EVER go to a hockey game. Even if you stretch your mind to the unrealistic stat that 50% of the attendees drove in single occupant vehicles, that is what, 10-11K cars if this arena is as large as they envision? More cars vacate during the peak parts of rush hour to all parts of the city. Now, let's inject reality, and the fact that many will be 2-4 occupant vehicles, others will park and ride, and others will take the LRT just like today. Even others (as mentioned here) will stay behind and grab a bite/drink/dance at a club/movie/what have you after the game. So, in reality, with the multiple exit routes, the good to great transit access, the gaggle of parking, and the options available that 118th could never accomodate due to the isolated design, we just simply need to get over this traffic garbage. Period. End of story.

    Should I now insert the ease of exit from the ACC, MSG, COMPAQ center, Key Arena, Seahawks Stadium, SAFECO Field, etc in other centrally located facilities I've been to in order to completely DESTROY this traffic hullablaloo??? I didn't think so.

    MMMMM, Pyramid brews after a Mariner game, or before a Mariner game....
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    I agree RichardS... Traffic will be busy, but no more than now. In fact, it will probably be just as easy, if not easier to get in and out of downtown before and after a game as it is to get to and from Rexall. I personally believe that a big percentage of Edmontonians are allergic to change. Not all, but definitely a significant number.

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    Thumbs down (puke)

    You make a mean case, but I'm not really sold Richard.

    You're the one making blind assumptions here, I'm advocating for hard data to make a decision.

    You're advocating, um, well, I'm not sure what you're advocating - or smoking.

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    I don't know that it's people being allergic to change. I think that if you don't give it very much thought and simply go with gut instincts, traffic and parking are two things that would jump to most people's minds as a concern. When talking about this with people, those two issues come up extremely frequently, even from quite intelligent people. But once some more thought is given to them, it quickly becomes apparent that they're non-issues, so long as the arena is properly situated in relation to LRT and the major downtown arteries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleisthenis View Post

    You're advocating, um, well, I'm not sure what you're advocating - or smoking.
    Reality my friend....reailty.

    I've lived what we're trying to do here. I'm advocating taking a deep breath and looking at the facts, not some Henny Penny the sky is falling and the traffic will be unbearable I tell you rhetoric.

    I don't need to sell you. Those who need to be sold already are sold. You're just along for the ride my friend...and it will be a good ride!
    Tired of being taken advantage of .

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    Quote Originally Posted by raz0469 View Post
    I don't know that it's people being allergic to change. I think that if you don't give it very much thought and simply go with gut instincts, traffic and parking are two things that would jump to most people's minds as a concern. When talking about this with people, those two issues come up extremely frequently, even from quite intelligent people. But once some more thought is given to them, it quickly becomes apparent that they're non-issues, so long as the arena is properly situated in relation to LRT and the major downtown arteries.
    That's the mistake in logic though I tried to articulate in my first point about Access above.

    The current site has 100% LRT access (in terms of walking distance), and STILL there is congestion on arterial roads, (75th street especially). Putting the new arena on-top of an LRT station won't likely make as much of a difference, especially since Jasper, 104th and 97th are all less well situated to handle traffic than the yellowhead and kingsway avenues.

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