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Thread: Jasper Avenue Makeover

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
    One of the reasons downtown does not look vibrand is that most of the stores are inside the malls. This draws the people inside so it looks like no one is around. If they had stores where the access to them was from the pavement there would be more people walking around outside. The parking is and issue. Not many women like parking in the covered parking lots as they can be pretty scary. The city centre mall draws a lot of pedestrians of the streets.
    I'm guessing that not a lot of folks want to walk around outside during the 6 months of the year that it's below freezing. After all Edmonton is known for it's malls.
    Last edited by notnomde; 20-07-2009 at 01:40 AM.

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    If no one wants to be outside for 6 months of the year why is Whyte Avenue so successful? We have a handful of days in the winter where it is too cold to go outside not 6 months.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    If no one wants to be outside for 6 months of the year why is Whyte Avenue so successful? We have a handful of days in the winter where it is too cold to go outside not 6 months.
    yep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    If no one wants to be outside for 6 months of the year why is Whyte Avenue so successful? We have a handful of days in the winter where it is too cold to go outside not 6 months.
    Absolutely, the 'winter' weather excuse is just that. Montreal and Quebec City are both considered 'winter' cities and they have amazing pedestrian-oriented streets and districts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Absolutely, the 'winter' weather excuse is just that. Montreal and Quebec City are both considered 'winter' cities and they have amazing pedestrian-oriented streets and districts.
    Quit it, Chris! By mentioning that other Canadian cities experience long winters, you are depriving the E-town haters of an easy target.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Oh sorry!! I forgot that Edmonton is thee only 'winter' city on the planet...

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug View Post
    If no one wants to be outside for 6 months of the year why is Whyte Avenue so successful? We have a handful of days in the winter where it is too cold to go outside not 6 months.
    I guess folks don't feel the cold so much when they're drunk.
    Last edited by notnomde; 21-07-2009 at 01:24 AM.

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    ^ During the day while walking around shopping and hitting up restaurants for lunch?
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    whyte avenue shopping/eating at xmas is one of my fav things of the year... and it is absolutely packed on weekends.

    the issue is that we need denser neighbourhoods with more neighbourhood services on corridors (such as whyte does today) to encourage people to come out rather than drive to a mall.

    it is not the weather IMO, it is the fact that few avenues/streets have enough to truly draw people out to.
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    ^
    this is one hundred percent edmonton's problem. We need more density/services/entertainment along major corridors through established neighbourhoods. We don't really have any successful ones to speak of (yet) other than Whyte Avenue to draw people even from the surrounding neighbourhood. 107/118 avenue could in the future (and potentially parts of 111) and the same with 124 street.

  11. #111

    Default Jasper Ave and Transit

    I don't get it. We want affordable transit, we want to make it easier for people to get around downtown and we want to fix up Jasper Ave by removing those silly balls. Hasn't anybody been to San Francisco? They have trains that roll right on the main downtown roads and share them with traffic. They are in the centre of the roads so at each red, light passengers can hop on or off. They are not particularly fast but for short distances that is okay. We have a good chunk of that system in place already. We have a very wide Jasper Ave, we have tracks on top of the High Level Bridge. We could have a system of trolleys that take passengers from anywhere on Jasper Ave to the Whyte Ave are. There are even right of ways until you reach 104th street. This would link the entertainment and financial areas. It would be comparatively cheap (no new bridges, no underground work) and it would be great for travellers and conventions who want to get out and see something else.

    Remember those old pictures of Edmonton with the streetcars running down the middle of Jasper Ave? If it worked then, why not now?

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    So you're talking about a bus on rails? Why bother?

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    ^Its called a 'streetcar'...which they have already (and continue to) look at the merits of implementing some routes within the city center and university / Whyte areas. But don't expect to see much on this idea for awhile yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisD View Post
    Oh sorry!! I forgot that Edmonton is thee only 'winter' city on the planet...
    People hole up and never do anything outside in Moscow. True story. No night life or street life there at all. Nope. Nadda.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

  15. #115

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    Any updates on a makeover for jasper ave?? Everything else seems to be getting attn ex) capital blvd, and jasper ave is sitting there lifeless

  16. #116

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    Patience is a virtue.

    Things don't happen overnight, this type of stuff doesn't go on the drawing board on day one to frution on day 2....

    I'd place my bets on not seeing any action on this until at LEAST summer 2010.

    Cap Blvd re-do has been many many years in the coming. Way past overdue.

  17. #117

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    The main thing that will decide the timing is the work of the roof of Central Station.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bray88 View Post
    Any updates on a makeover for jasper ave?? Everything else seems to be getting attn ex) capital blvd, and jasper ave is sitting there lifeless
    The design concept is underway and will be unveiled soon. If I am not mistaken, administration will have approximate costs to take forward to Council for approval soon.

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    Default Jasper Ave. spruce-up depends on business: councillor

    Jasper Ave. spruce-up depends on business: councillor
    BY GORDON KENT, EDMONTONJOURNAL.COMOCTOBER 8, 2009 12:02 PM

    EDMONTON — A plan to spruce up 14 blocks of Jasper Avenue and draw pedestrians to the area needs to attract street-level businesses to be a success, Coun. Tony Caterina says.

    The proposal to make Jasper Edmonton’s premier downtown street again will cost about $39 million for curbs, lights, paving, furniture, trees and other work, which doesn’t include the separate rehabilitation of two blocks around the Central LRT station, says a report released Thursday.

    The scheme is aimed at upgrading the strip from 97th Street to 111th Street.

    While Caterina said the roadway needs revitalization, his experience running clothing stores during downtown’s heyday indicates upgrades alone won’t be enough to bring the good times back.

    Full Story: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/...311/story.html

  20. #120

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    gotta agree with Tony!It's obvious, but the politicos have to believe it.
    Edmontonian and proud of it!

  21. #121

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    I find it quite funny that the city wants more street life retail and pedestrian traffic on Jasper but at same time has just recinded the liquor licence for the Hardwood Cafe (110st/Jasper Ave)...because apparently a licence was given out when it wasn't supposed to be or some sort of mix up

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    ^what? that is ridiculous.
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    I remember that happening to Zack Pocklington's nightclub in the old Bank of Montreal building, that was like 10 years ago. It was opening night and they ran into a glitch with the liquor license.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^^^ Yes, because the Hardwood Cafe is clearly just a drunken troublemaker dispenser on Jasper Ave. =(
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I remember that happening to Zack Pocklington's nightclub in the old Bank of Montreal building, that was like 10 years ago. It was opening night and they ran into a glitch with the liquor license.
    ah the Vault

    it was touted as a key in 'revitalizing the downtown'

    ha
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    ^ I hung out at the Vault all the time after they got their liquor license. I loved that place. A pity it didn't last long.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Jasper Ave. 'grenades' face wrecking ball
    $39 million downtown avenue remake could include end of medians
    BY GORDON KENT, EDMONTON JOURNALOCTOBER 8, 2009

    A $39-million plan to return Jasper Avenue to its glory days as Edmonton's main street could include tearing out the controversial medians put in 20 years ago.

    The concrete-and-steel structures were intended to beautify the avenue when they were installed in the late 1980s, but many people thought they were ugly and intrusive, with one council critic calling them "bunkers with hand grenades at each end."

    As the city looks at ways to make Jasper a pedestrian magnet, one idea is to take out these aging structures, opening the possibility that parades could run along the street again, urban designer Kristin Chrzanowski said Thursday.

    "I don't think they have helped very much. They have disrupted the ability to use it as a public space," she said.

    "If they stayed, they would have to be modernized. Right now they're pretty much empty planters with globes on them."

    Full Story: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/life/...394/story.html

  28. #128

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    Never thought I'd actually agree with Tony Caterina about something, the world must be coming to an end!!

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Who Dat? View Post
    Never thought I'd actually agree with Tony Caterina about something, the world must be coming to an end!!
    You know what they say about a broken clock. . .

    Further, I for one like hearing good points coming from Mr. Caterina, although I do wish they were more often about, even tangentally, the ward that actually elected him.

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    I too was surprised that I finally agreed with him about something... Hopefully he has "seen the light" and this is something that continues, although I'm not holding my breath.

  31. #131

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    The streetscape upgrades are only a part of the overall plan for Jasper.

  32. #132
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    I wish they would knock down that LRT entrance at Jasper/RHW instead of simply fixing the roof (if I read the article correctly).
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I wish they would knock down that LRT entrance at Jasper/RHW instead of simply fixing the roof (if I read the article correctly).
    I believe re-doing/orienting that entrance will be part of the works. Its a known issue.

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    ^^ That could very well be part of the plan still. Not enough details have been released yet.
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    Good - thanks, gents. That LRT entrance is a visual barrier, and as a result is a prime wino hangout.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Good - thanks, gents. That LRT entrance is a visual barrier, and as a result is a prime wino hangout.
    That is true...

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    http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...sion-open.aspx

    Jasper Avenue New Vision Open House

    November 05, 2009
    Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009
    Time: 5 - 8:30pm
    Presentations: 5:30pm and 7pm
    Location: Enterprise Square, Main Floor Atrium, 10230 Jasper Avenue
    The City of Edmonton invites citizens to view new urban design and streetscape improvement concepts, displays and models for a new vision of Jasper Avenue.
    The plans are based on public workshops and consultations held earlier this year.
    The City is re-establishing Jasper Avenue as the premiere main street of Edmonton and a symbol of the downtown’s vitality. A renewed Jasper Avenue will reflect the City’s commitment to revitalize the downtown into a dynamic residential, economic and cultural area.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

  38. #138

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    I love the image on page 22 of http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...ry_Results.pdf

    Lots of foam representations of buildings in the pipe, like Mayfair, Cascadia, the arena. I think the baby blue stuff is pure fantasy, while white is existing and proposed?
    Giving less of a damn than ever… Can't laugh at the ignorant if you ignore them!

  39. #139

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    i think that's what it is. They could have at least made the fantasy ones taller lol

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    image from above link
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    Where's the Urbia foamy?

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    ^where it should be... the poubelle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^where it should be... the poubelle.
    poobelle.

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    I really love that building at the top right of the picture. It's that beautiful clear round building with a blue band about mid way up and a unique top to it. It must be a complete glass curtain wall on the building. Could it be a new corporate office tower for evian? LOL
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

  45. #145

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    There's an open house tomorrow night (Thursday November 12) at the U of A Enterprise Square from 5-7pm and 7-9pm (Presentation and discussion)

    Anyone going?

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    I will try to make it, I'm very interested in seeing what is said.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    unfortunately i cannot attend but really would like to see what they come back with as i attended an earlier session... lots of photos and rundown please.
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    I'm going to try to make it down but will only have about a half-hour window to check it out, so I likely won't hear any speakers or anything.

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    The session was pretty informative, but unfortunately I couldn't stay for the presentation. From reading the boards (which looked very good and well thought out) it seems like they want to renovate basically everything on Jasper Ave. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not talking major renovations (except for some buildings/areas), but they're definitely dreaming big.


    Here we're looking at their foamy model looking at Jasper Ave from the East. Notice the big park right in front of Hotel Mac? They want to completely get rid of the building next to the park that's there and open it right up. I'm not sure how feasible that is considering that they'd be knocking down a building that isn't theirs...but hey, gotta dream big to get big results right?


    Here's an aerial shot of the street as they see it. The thing that caught my eye was the inclusion of the Scatter Intersections (108th, 105th, 100th, and 99th). The way the guy explained it to me made a whole lot of sense, and I like how they didn't try to force it in on 109th. If they make it happen and don't screw it up, it could work.

    Notice the complete lack of medians and the 5 lane roadway (as opposed to the current 7 lane road). I assume they're looking to widen sidewalks to make the Ave more walkable, which fits in with:

    Now this doesn't capture everything obviously, but they're trying to open up the at grade retail in a bunch of buildings. They actually described a few (Telus, Associated Engineering, and a few others) as "hostile" due to the complete lack of accessibility from Jasper Ave, and I'm inclined to agree with that. In this picture though we're looking at the current location of Boston Pizza, and how they aim to remove it completely, and construct a 2-tower block. Now behind this would be a large park that would span from 108th street (on Jasper), behind the development, and re-appear on Jasper around 105th I believe. Making a giant downtown park which would pretty much open up to Icon I and II I think (my memory...she's not so good) It's more visible in the picture below



    NOTES:

    - moving green shelters, bulletin boards, etc to side-streets and just around corners to open up walkability
    - identified Oil City Roadhouse building as unsavoury
    - no information about relocation of pedestrian access points for LRT
    - no information about fixing Central LRT Station
    - identified Alberta Hotel as a possible development
    - showed a lot of current height restriction vs. proposed height restriction
    - said it would all be online in a few weeks to a month, but wouldn't commit
    Last edited by Alex.L; 12-11-2009 at 06:46 PM.

  50. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    - showed a lot of current height restriction vs. proposed height restriction

    I don't understand, won't height restrictions be lifted soon?

  51. #151

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    You can see the Alberta Hotel rebuild on the map. Given the relative accuracy of the Cascadia and Mayfair models at the other end of Downtown, I'd suspect it's a reasonable massing model.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    - showed a lot of current height restriction vs. proposed height restriction

    I don't understand, won't height restrictions be lifted soon?
    I'm not sure, I think it may be city imposed rather than due to the airport

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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You can see the Alberta Hotel rebuild on the map. Given the relative accuracy of the Cascadia and Mayfair models at the other end of Downtown, I'd suspect it's a reasonable massing model.
    in the model, yes. on the Jasper Ave cross-section with explanations for each building/lot it didn't say that it was confirmed. But I did get the guy who came up and wanted to explain stuff to admit that those weren't completely proof-read, haha. He got a little red in the face when I asked him about the "hostile at-grade building interactions".


    Was anybody else there, possibly for the presentation?

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    Cool. Very, very good to see this going ahead.

    I don't think we'll see that park in the Mac anytime soon, given MacDonald estates is *huge* and right behind there is a 500 vehicle carpark used by the Marriott and Fairmont.

    Oh well, gotta dream big!
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  55. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    You can see the Alberta Hotel rebuild on the map. Given the relative accuracy of the Cascadia and Mayfair models at the other end of Downtown, I'd suspect it's a reasonable massing model.
    in the model, yes. on the Jasper Ave cross-section with explanations for each building/lot it didn't say that it was confirmed. But I did get the guy who came up and wanted to explain stuff to admit that those weren't completely proof-read, haha. He got a little red in the face when I asked him about the "hostile at-grade building interactions".


    Was anybody else there, possibly for the presentation?
    The cross section descriptions are largely observations about existing conditions - and there are several buildings that present a 'hostile' interface to the pedestrian from an urban design perspective. Blank walls, lack of active use, blunt grade changes etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    NOTES:

    - no information about relocation of pedestrian access points for LRT
    - no information about fixing Central LRT Station
    In the 5:30 presentation they did talk about sprucing up the LRT station entrances.
    They also stated explicitly that the repair of the Central LRT station roof was the main reason why this Jasper Avenue New Vision work was undertaken. This section of Jasper would be the first section that would undergo this transformation.

    Overall I liked the vision that was proposed by the consultants and would like to see this plan move forward. I think they addressed key issues in making Jasper Avenue more of a destination.
    My observations from memory:
    - Reduce vehicular traffic on Jasper Avenue (traffic can be distributed among parallel avenues like 100 Ave, 102 Ave and 103 Ave, which are nowhere near their vehicular capacity).
    - Widened sidewalks with textured pavement, possibly with heating underneath to melt the snow
    - Improve street-level interaction along Jasper Avenue (through new buildings and retrofits/improvements of existing buildings).
    - Increase the number of downtown residents
    - More green space in the study area (from about 3 ha to 6.4 ha, increasing it to about 8% of total space). Lots of mature trees lining the street.
    - A promenade/path at/near the top of the bank along the river valley east from 100 Street
    - A set of green space/parks starting from 105 street running west to 108 street about half a block north from Jasper

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    I was able to attend a good part of the presentation. Overall the plan is very good, but very ambitious - goes way beyond just new streetscaping. Purchasing the land and buildings needed to expand the amount of park space alone could prove to be cost-prohibitive. I'm pretty sure that either this plan will be scaled down significantly, or else we will have to be very, very patient as it would likely take decades to implement fully.

    As a vision, though, it's very impressive and even if just 30% of it were implemented it would have a huge impact. At the very least I hope it inspires others to think differently about their downtown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    They want to completely get rid of the building next to the park that's there and open it right up. I'm not sure how feasible that is considering that they'd be knocking down a building that isn't theirs...but hey, gotta dream big to get big results right?
    It's not so much that "They" want to get rid of the building, so much as show what would be possible if it were sold to the owners of Cecil Place and used to expand that building onto the park with an active cafe/bistro and open office windows overlooking. Simply a "vision" - don't expect he city itself to expropriate the land or demolish anything.
    Last edited by RTA; 13-11-2009 at 09:18 AM.
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    I unfortunately couldn't make it out to the presentation but it does sound interesting from what has been discribed here. I think a couple things though that make me wonder is the suggestions of removing buildings or unsavoury buildings. Now I can agree with that kind of statement if the building is abandonned and doesn't do anything for the area. But for example the McDonald Estates, that building is anything but abandonned. As for the building Oil City Roadhouse is in, the unoccupied parts should be fixed up no doubt but as for the business, it does bring life to that part of Jasper Ave that had been dead for a long long time.
    Also the suggestion that the BP's building will be completely removed and replaced by a 2 tower block sounds very nice but I think is going past dreaming big. Personally I would love that to happen there but is this group planning on buying the BP's and building this big project? I thought the idea of this was to talk about a makeover for Jasper Ave. The city has control over the roads, sidewalks but unless the city is going to be a develloper I hope the tone of those statements are along the lines of "this is what would be our ideal situation" as opposed to "this is what we are doing".
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^ Let's be clear, this group isn't a developer nor are they suggesting that the city act on these buildings. They're simply giving us their vision for what is possible for Jasper Ave. with examples of appropriately scaled and street-fronted developments that would fit that vision.
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    I hope that when the plan for the streetscape improvements crystalizes that Council has the cojones to fix & firm up the zoning to guide development to these sorts of ends and prohibit half measures and so forth.

    The last thing we need is another Railtown, where any development was considered good development, regardless of how appropriate it will be in 15-20-30 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTA View Post
    ^ Let's be clear, this group isn't a developer nor are they suggesting that the city act on these buildings. They're simply giving us their vision for what is possible for Jasper Ave. with examples of appropriately scaled and street-fronted developments that would fit that vision.
    That should be fine then.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Scramble intersections!!! Yay!
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    I hope that when the plan for the streetscape improvements crystalizes that Council has the cojones to fix & firm up the zoning to guide development to these sorts of ends and prohibit half measures and so forth.

    The last thing we need is another Railtown, where any development was considered good development, regardless of how appropriate it will be in 15-20-30 years.
    I just remembered that in their vision, the urban strip mall at the corner of 109th and Jasper was listed as "temporary" and something that could be redeveloped into something that would push the height restrictions while of course retaining street-level retail.

    In making that original post with the pictures and my thoughts I may have misconstrued the facts. The City of Edmonton isn't planning on going in with a wrecking ball and making things happen, it's just a vision or a 20 yr plan/guideline on what they'd like to see done.

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    ^Exactly, the City isn't purchasing any buildings or property, but it shows what opportunities exist for private sector development in and around Jasper Avenue. The opportunities are huge. Our downtown is practically a blank slate to work from.

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    Is there something about that apartment building NE of the Mac that we don't know about? Is it in dire shape, would there really be an opportunity to purchase and tear down a 25 story apt building to extend parks space.

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    I love the idea of the Heritage trail being connected from 100th Street and going south of the Hotel MacDonald to connect to the Shaw or Louise McKinney Park. Perfect place for a architectural type ped bridge that could cross MacDougall Hill at the same height as the current path and sweep south over the hill to connect behind the Hotel Mac (start around the Telus building and go in a half circle to Mac). This would provide a great siteline of the river valley without blocking anyones view from the Mac and would make the bridge blend in the landscape instead of being on top of it. This would be great to have a real promenade instead of our one block here, three blocks here, etc. To have it connect from 121st to 95th Street someday would be amazing and would make a better public walking area than what is there now which is a mish mash of connections other then 117st to 121st which is a great walking view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    - showed a lot of current height restriction vs. proposed height restriction

    I don't understand, won't height restrictions be lifted soon?
    I'm not sure, I think it may be city imposed rather than due to the airport
    The city might impose it's own? why! i was hoping for some that are at least 200m

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    Why in the world would it be City imposed? It's Nav Canada.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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    again I have no idea what the story is with the height restriction, but it was definitely still on their maps

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    Vancouver had good success with an a self imposed height limit. When density required it was waived.
    It is worth a look, but certainly the limit MUST be raised for areas where it is currently 45M or 13 (approx ?) floors. I just don't see buildings limited to that being economical for a developer.

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    ^it is not as much height as it is zoning attached to that height. Not to mention it also means short, fat, and little room for creativity it seems...
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    If anything the city should impose some minimum height restriction just to compensate for the years of hindrance. Imagine all new downtown development must be at least 200m tall... I wish!

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    one thing I'd love to see with this Jasper Ave Revitalization is new garbage cans. I know it sounds like a small issue, but if they're trying to give downtown a 'new' feel they should replace all those cracked/worn concrete garbage cans that the homeless are constantly digging through.

    I'm talking about the ones similar to these:


    and replace them with something more like this:

    but with a place to put recyclables so we don't have people shoulder-deep in a trash can on our main street.

    I was very impressed when I saw these types of receptacles in Vancouver. I know people will say "that'll just encourage the homeless", but I think it's the price to pay to take a step toward being a green-friendly city and cleaning up the downtown image. I'd even go so far as to suggest something like this if people are worried about supporting the homeless


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    I actually found a picture of one of the cans I'm talking about from Vancouver


    notice the spots for bottles and cans? this way the collectors can just walk by and pick them up. nice and easy. People would be less inclined to simply toss their bottles in the trash as well.

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    ^ I love the multi-bins myself, having seen them work well in Toronto and even Winnipeg. The Vancouver ones aren't bad either, but I like the idea of having a separate slot for papers.
    Strathcona City Separatist

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    oh, and also BOLT THEM TO THE SIDEWALK.
    I'm tired of seeing garbage cans flipped on their side by unruly drunks.

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    Or seeing piles of organic...whatever it is.....under the garbage bins attached to light poles. Blech.
    LA today, Athens tomorrow. I miss E-town.

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    During the presentation, the presenters did say that deciding on the street fixtures and furniture was something that would come in the next iteration. Hopefully they have some similar designs in mind.
    Strathcona City Separatist

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    good to hear they're on top of it

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    They can easily attach a cigarette butt disposal to the side of these as well. It would be great to sort the public's garbage at the time of disposal. I think people will use it.

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    ^Part of the project requires information regarding what type of street furniture will be used as this will help with calculating rough costs. The detailed design phase will nail down the specific type of street furniture and associated costs prior to advancing a budget to Council for approval.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanC View Post
    Is there something about that apartment building NE of the Mac that we don't know about? Is it in dire shape, would there really be an opportunity to purchase and tear down a 25 story apt building to extend parks space.
    I was standing on the corner of 100th and Jasper and staring at this building today while waiting for the light to change, and I see absolutely no reason for anybody to tear it down. It's a 20+ floor tower that's occupied (Norquest) and doesn't really look all that bad. I mean sure, there are better buildings, but if we're going to start calling for the demolition of all the older looking, boring buildings we're going to have a very empty downtown.

    I think the park was wishful thinking. I think it'd be pretty difficult to get approval to knock down a tower in downtown.

    on another note, the East-facing wall of the Empire Building is so plain, windowless and boring. I'd like to see something done here, maybe a big mural or something. I realize it would be incredibly costly though. It's just so blah.

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    I know I'm posting A LOT in this thread, but I walk down Jasper Ave basically every day and this whole thing has made me look at it in a completely different light.

    That being said, today's topic is the decorative medians. I don't think we should get rid of them. I mean the only reason I can see for getting rid of them is so we can have turning lanes, right? Well we've already got turning lanes. So that reason doesn't exactly fly with me. If the reasoning is that there are traffic back-ups due to turning lanes that are too short, why can't we just make the turning lights longer? seems to me that would be a rather inexpensive alternative. Also, I think they really add to the feel of downtown, and it would be a lot cheaper to simply maintain the flower beds rather than let them go bare and wasted.

    Is there a reason to get rid of them that I'm missing (aside from the 'grenades' at the ends of them)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ander View Post
    I know I'm posting A LOT in this thread, but I walk down Jasper Ave basically every day and this whole thing has made me look at it in a completely different light.

    That being said, today's topic is the decorative medians. I don't think we should get rid of them. I mean the only reason I can see for getting rid of them is so we can have turning lanes, right? Well we've already got turning lanes. So that reason doesn't exactly fly with me. If the reasoning is that there are traffic back-ups due to turning lanes that are too short, why can't we just make the turning lights longer? seems to me that would be a rather inexpensive alternative. Also, I think they really add to the feel of downtown, and it would be a lot cheaper to simply maintain the flower beds rather than let them go bare and wasted.

    Is there a reason to get rid of them that I'm missing (aside from the 'grenades' at the ends of them)?
    they need to be removed to complete repairs and additional waterproofing to the lrt roof as a starter...

    from there, it's a combination of things in terms of what happens next. a good part of the rationale is not to add turning lanes (although they may be a side benefit) but to restore jasper avenue as edmonton's "main street". that means everything from the ability to hold parades (ever wonder why our parades are on our side streets and not our main street? now you know).

    one of the other goals is to increase the visibility and the sight lines across and along jasper. along with the removal of the medians will be the removal of those large pagoda shaped "shelters" and the relocation of much of the miscellaneous items (newspaper boxes etc.) around the corners and on to the side streets.

    they are also leaning towards a narrowing of the overall carriageway from 7 lanes to 5 and having the sidewalks reclaim the additional width. other than rush hour, they are also contemplating parking on both sides which would reduce the traffic lanes to 3 (think bloor street in toronto or robson in vancouver...).

    lots of contextual planning was done as part of this exercise that should be bumped up/into the new downtown plan if and when that ever gets its act together (even if some if it is completely pie in the sky when it comes to demolishing macdonald place and canterra centre).

    what started as a street level exercise took a step back (up?) to develop a big picture framework and once it moves back down to execution at the street level i'm hopeful that the exercise will be a succesful one from both a planning and an implementation perspective and it doesn't become just another set of plans for that very long shelf of plans we seem to have a penchant for developing and ignoring.

    as for "the reason", i think at the end of the day it is to restore jasper's prominence as a street by improving the day to day environment of the street for those that use it. the reinforced street trees and boulevard feel, the extra width were it's meaningful, the potential of using waste heat to keep sidewalks walkable year round, the inclusion of lighting that recognizes what's needed for a winter city...

    hope that helps.
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    Actually that was quite helpful. I can't say I'm sold on it though. Aside from the Central LRT project, it still seems like something that is just being done for the sake of being done. I mean we have like 1 parade per year, so I don't see it as a major factor, but I do see their rationale.

    I'm completely on board with widening the sidewalks and reducing the number of lanes/removing parking during the day, but I still don't see how the medians are standing in the way of that.

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    Dude, are you for real? The medians are hideous.

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    ^^ The medians really reduce the visibility on, around, and down Jasper Ave., visibility being one of the key points of the redevelopment per the consultant's presentation.

    We also have many more than just one parade a year.
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    I think I like the lights in them more than the actual medians. I'll go out there and try to be a little more open to this idea though.

    as far as the parades go, I can only think of the Capital Ex parade that this would affect. The Cariwest Festival Parade still goes down Jasper Ave, Pride Parade still goes down Jasper, etc. Sure they'd have more room to operate, but this reason just doesn't do it for me.

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    ^I doubt when you do a plan like this that the primary consideration is for how this *might* affect a parade that happens only once a year...

    I am happy to see how this is progressing since the first workshop weekend, which was incredibly productive. Urban Strategies are doing a really good job of identifying what is really needed for Jasper Ave, while giving our brains a push on what it might look like with more infill development.

    Yes, I like the scramble intersections too, and the focus on how Beaverhills might integrate with this plan and play a larger role in how it functions in relation to Jasper Ave. I know many of the ideas we had initially won't make it into the plan, but it got alot of people thinking.

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    WRT to the scrambles, I think they're a great idea, but one of them was proposed for 108 St., which I found a bit odd. I would think 109 would be better suited for a scramble all around.
    Strathcona City Separatist

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    Quote Originally Posted by RTA View Post
    WRT to the scrambles, I think they're a great idea, but one of them was proposed for 108 St., which I found a bit odd. I would think 109 would be better suited for a scramble all around.
    109 St is a bit too high volume as far as vehicle loads go for a scramble I think Given the current state of 108 St and the redevelopment potential I don't think it's remiss to put a scramble there.
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    ^ Actually that's what makes it more suitable...as it is that intersection is not pedestrian-friendly, too many drivers not looking into their turns, continuing left turns well after the advance signal is gone and pedestrians have already started crossing, etc. It would be beneficial for both drivers and pedestrians to separate their crossing phases.
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    I think the longer cycles required for scrambles would cause too much congestion for 109 St. 108 is also Capital Boulevard and given the redevelopment planned there as well as on Jasper, a scramble works there as well.

    (I concur completely about the pedestrian hazards at 109 St & Jasper Ave. It's one of the reasons I walk home on 100 Ave.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Scramble intersections!!! Yay!

    Couldn't they start scramble corners almost immediately? I wouldn't think there is a lot that has to be done to convert some intersections. Painting of pedestrian crossings / realigning of pedestrian lights. Or does this require studys & committees ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTA View Post
    ^^ The medians really reduce the visibility on, around, and down Jasper Ave.
    I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I can stand on one side of the street and see the sidewalk on the other side. The only thing these medians are blocking is the majestic view of traffic. Even when people are in traffic they can see what's around them.

    The only way I'll accept that the medians reduce visibility is if you're arguing that the trees are an obstacle, but even then, what about the trees on the sidewalks?

    I'm not convinced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry N View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Scramble intersections!!! Yay!

    Couldn't they start scramble corners almost immediately? I wouldn't think there is a lot that has to be done to convert some intersections. Painting of pedestrian crossings / realigning of pedestrian lights. Or does this require studys & committees ?
    yup....

    i would love to see them at:

    101st
    105st
    109st

    and 101st/102ave

    Put a webcam on that one and do a time lapse.

    pretty sure it will look identical to this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39CHg5Tbcuw
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    only a few stragglers and LOoK no jaywalkers

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSPACE View Post
    ^I doubt when you do a plan like this that the primary consideration is for how this *might* affect a parade that happens only once a year...

    I am happy to see how this is progressing since the first workshop weekend, which was incredibly productive. Urban Strategies are doing a really good job of identifying what is really needed for Jasper Ave, while giving our brains a push on what it might look like with more infill development.

    Yes, I like the scramble intersections too, and the focus on how Beaverhills might integrate with this plan and play a larger role in how it functions in relation to Jasper Ave. I know many of the ideas we had initially won't make it into the plan, but it got alot of people thinking.
    Cheers, mate.

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    ^thanks for the link again... very well done IMO and i love the 106st-108st northside 'concept' buildings.
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