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Thread: Jasper Avenue Makeover

  1. #201
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    A very thorough and convincing report. For all those involved, well done!

    I know many of us have been saying this for what seems like eternity, but the building blocks for a successful downtown are slowly begining to be assembled in ernest:

    Neighborhood plans for the Quarters, Northedge, West Rossdale, and now Jasper Avenue; the recently completed LMP park, the proposed Oilers Arena/Katzland, proposed LRT extensions, rumblings of a Legislature grounds renovation, and the transformation of the Epcor generating plant to a public / cultural place.

    So while its easy to be cynical due to the current economic reality, I for one am really excited about Edmoton's (near) future! With all the things happening behind the scenes, I could see 2009/2010 being a very big year for this city.

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    What city is slide #25?

    Also it calls the development on 109/jasper (where starbucks, swiss chalet etc...) "Inappropriately scaled development".

    I completely agree, but why did the city approve of that kind of development there then?
    Last edited by Perspective; 08-12-2009 at 06:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    What city is slide #25?

    Also it calls the development on 109/jasper (where starbucks, swiss chalet etc...) "Inappropriately scaled development".

    I completely agree, but why did the city approve of that kind of development there then?
    Cause those kinds of developments aren't meant to last forever... they're meant to fill empty space until something better can be built on the land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perspective View Post
    What city is slide #25?

    Also it calls the development on 109/jasper (where starbucks, swiss chalet etc...) "Inappropriately scaled development".

    I completely agree, but why did the city approve of that kind of development there then?
    Keep in mind when it was built... Downtown was literally a ghost town and to have that development was a godsend. It is not a terrible development and while car orientated, it works well overall other than those shops who only open inward.

    In the long term... like 20-30 years, that site will get bought and redeveloped into a save-on at main with UG parking and towers above but for now it serves downtown very well.
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    One picture I saw which I really liked and would love to see is on page 27 of the document. It shows a Staples in at street level in a podium of some building. This makes me think, is there any building in the downtown right now that could accomodate Staples moving in. Either that or of course I'd love to see a brand new building where Staples is currently. This building could have underground parking and very nice podium where Staples and other businesses could live.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^the current staples site will be the next Oxford office tower when market conditions warrant. I would love to see staples in the podium of something downtown fronting the street but there are very few places that could accommodate that size other than the new mayfair development.

    It should stay in the CBD though given the customer base proximity.
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    ^ Agreed, as long as Staples isn't another big box outlet like the one beside the Bell tower.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    My favorite slides are 68, 73, 79 and 81 showing the impact new greenspace could have on the downtown core. I wonder if the city would be trying to purchase or if when a building is put up beside the area if the city would mandate a % of public space in that particular area. Hope it is a combination of the two as it will take a long long time for buildings to be built but if the city buys few small parcels to start the park system it may encourage developers to move quicker to take advantage as well as removing some of the surface parking blight.
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    The warehouse district needs to eventually take a 1/2 block and do something like akin to the park in yaletown...


    (source: http://activerain.com/image_store/up...8328777109.jpg)



    (source:http://www.pacificmetropolis.com/ima...es_park_ii.jpg)
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    ^That would be great. Also think it would be great to have an area that could be basketball courts in the warmer weather and then an outdoor rink in winter.
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    ^outdoor rink is at city hall... but yes basketball court with park would be ideal. That is one thing that really impressed me about Manhattan... tons of parks like this with handball and basketball courts.
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    Lots and lots of good in that document. Would love more street front retail. Get it done!

    The non-peak parking/peak driving lane will be good for cycling in terms of giving cyclists extra space, but does not lend itself to any sort of painted cycling lane. There would be no location that would be good for both peak and non-peak times.

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    Looks great and I sure hope that most of it comes to fruition.

    I do wonder why street level retail is only recommended and not required in the strip between 105 & 108 st. That looks to me me to be a great pedestrian mall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The warehouse district needs to eventually take a 1/2 block and do something like akin to the park in yaletown...


    (source: http://activerain.com/image_store/up...8328777109.jpg)



    (source:http://www.pacificmetropolis.com/ima...es_park_ii.jpg)
    BP site...make it so!
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Looks amazing. I love how they basically come right out and say how Railtown is a failure in its current form, should be bulldozed and redone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Looks amazing. I love how they basically come right out and say how Railtown is a failure in its current form, should be bulldozed and redone.
    That's not quite how they put it. It was clear that there are improvements to be made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etownboarder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chmilz View Post
    Looks amazing. I love how they basically come right out and say how Railtown is a failure in its current form, should be bulldozed and redone.
    That's not quite how they put it. It was clear that there are improvements to be made.
    they made the same "point" about macdonald place - a 26 story highrise at the other end of jasper - so their comments about urban form and function and relationships weren't restricted to a particular urban (or non-urban) form. they were also making those points over a projected time frame of decades, not months or years.

    it's also important not to forget that this is a streetscape plan for jasper avenue... it went further than it needed to to ensure that it was done with appropriate context in regard to that long-term growth potential of downtown but if anyone is expecting the full build out of jasper avenue that it represented - or even the full build out of any particular block of jasper avenue such as the bp site - then you are going to be sorely - and wrongly - disappointed. not by the report or even its implementation but by unrealistic expectations.

    much of what is in this report should be "rolled up" into an updated capital city downtown plan and had to be developed here as that document - rightly or wrongly - is not presently considered valid or appropriate. don't get me wrong, much of what "this design" calls for from the tree canopies down might well be exactly what jasper avenue and downtown edmonton needs at this point from propety line to property line but to critique it based on what it hints at behind those property lines from the tree canopies up is a mistake.
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    http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/edmo.../12534066.html

    Team hired to devise plan for downtown

    A team of urban planners, designers, and architects has been hired to complete the city’s downtown plan, which could include room for a new sports arena.

    The Livable City Design group, made up of nationally recognized designers and planners from Edmonton and Vancouver and formed by the Edmonton-based design team Cohos Evamy integratedesign, was awarded the $400,000 contract amongst a pool of nine submissions.

    After three years of public consultations, the downtown plan is 80% complete and the city is ready to finalize it with the design team’s help.

    The plan will indicate how the downtown area will unfold in the next 10 or so years, said Duncan Fraser, the city’s senior planner and project manager. It focuses on transforming downtown into “a more vibrant, attractive, high density, mixed use and walkable area,” according to a release.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Is this going to start soon?

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    Not soon enough I'm afraid I thought I heard/read 2011

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    ^The Jasper Avenue Urban Design plan is different than the new Downtown Plan....which is expected to be completed by June!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The warehouse district needs to eventually take a 1/2 block and do something like akin to the park in yaletown...


    (source: http://activerain.com/image_store/up...8328777109.jpg)



    (source:http://www.pacificmetropolis.com/ima...es_park_ii.jpg)
    BP site...make it so!
    I like this idea but I would like to see this further north of Jasper Ave.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    ^I invite anyone that is interested in pushing the City to develop a park in the Warehouse District, possibly on the Scott Property they purchased, to join DECL and volunteer for the Parks Committee. Only community pressure will see this thing built in the near future. Once City Council even commits to it, there is a 2 year consultation process to build a park. We need to get this process started sooner rather than later.
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    ^where is the Scott property located and how big a space is it?
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    I think redeveloping Beaver Hills would be easiest. The Warehouse District should probably have a few parks, but one like Ian's referring to (a more urban, plaza-like one) I think would be perfect for Jasper/105. The location isn't too big for it, already zoned as a park, right on Jasper (ie visible, easy to access), and right around the corner from developing 104 St.

    Beaver Hills would be perfect for a facelift as I think in its current form it's quite dreary and tasteless. Unoriginal looking also, from the benches to the pavement...almost like it's trying to be a river valley (natural) park in an urban state.
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    ^I agree. Beaverhills is to get a makeover in the near future, but not sure what the timeline is, and whether this is part of the Downtown Plan timeline, or maybe the Jasper Ave New Visions timeline. I doubt anyone knows, other than that the waterfall foundation is cracked beyond repair.
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    Other than the comical bikes, i am not sure why we need to redo beaverhills. Update sure, clean up yes, but it love the almost oasis feel and naturalness of it.
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    I agree... while it could use a few updates and cosmetic changes, it doesn't need a complete overhaul.

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    Actually the location that could use a redo/makeover is the green space behind railtown. From what I remember its basically a path, grass and maybe some trees. It could look a whole lot nicer.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmcowboy11 View Post
    Actually the location that could use a redo/makeover is the green space behind railtown. From what I remember its basically a path, grass and maybe some trees. It could look a whole lot nicer.
    Agreed... it's starting to look rundown. I wonder if the City of Edmonton is responsible for this park, or if it's part of the Railtown development?

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    I'm guessing nothing major has been done there as it was tagged a 'multi-use corridor' and LRT potential was flagged there.
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    Although now, it appears that LRT may not go that way so the park should be considered to be maintained as a multu-use corridor but can be improved visually.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    Other than the comical bikes, i am not sure why we need to redo beaverhills. Update sure, clean up yes, but it love the almost oasis feel and naturalness of it.
    To me it looks a little dated, and could easily be a bustling park or square with a more modern and inviting feel, and more interesting colours. Plus it could be a premier spot with all that's around it. We have many parks that take design elements from a park like Beaver Hills, why not have something more modern like your Vancouver example or the Fed Centennial Plaza or LMP?
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    ^keep Beaver as is more or less and add a modern urban well shaped park in the 103ave/105-108st area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^keep Beaver as is more or less and add a modern urban well shaped park in the 103ave/105-108st area.
    I also like the overall layout and feel of the park; its fairly steep change in terrain adds a nice touch to an otherwise flat area dominated by concrete.

    Like many other people I also agree that those bikes have to go, they are simply terrible. I think they have to get rid of all the scum bags and low lives that hang out there all day in the summer as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^keep Beaver as is more or less and add a modern urban well shaped park in the 103ave/105-108st area.
    The location isn't as good right now (plus isn't it supposed to be between Jasper and 102 not 103?). Beaver Hills should be a premiere park. On Jasper, so the visibility and pedestrian life is there, next door to revitalizing 104 Street. Beaver Hills right now is not a premiere park.

    The linear park in the Jasper revitalization plan isn't supposed to be a "urban well shaped park" of public art, water features, neat landscaping, etc., it is supposed to be relatively simple in design with grass and trails mostly.
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    ^it is actually reasonably well used in summer homey. I often go there for lunch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    ^it is actually reasonably well used in summer homey. I often go there for lunch.
    But considering it's virtually the only park directly on Jasper Avenue in the CBD area, shouldn't it be one of the best in the city? I don't have any ideas to contribute unfortunately, but I think it really could use some upgrading. There's probably a dozen buildings in Calgary with nicer plazas on private property than that particular park.

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    Default Jasper Avenue phone booths neglected

    Jasper Avenue phone booths neglected
    Last Updated: Thursday, July 8, 2010 | 11:22 AM MT
    CBC News

    Stop at a phone booth on Edmonton's Jasper Avenue and you'll find more feces than telephones.

    The booths began their lives as super booths — about three feet wide and the length of a small car.

    Now they're used as washrooms and garbage dumps.

    The telephones themselves are long gone leaving the booths as shelters for homeless people and drug dealing dens.

    Some business owners along the strip want the booths removed.

    Jim Taylor, executive director with the downtown business association, points to a booth at Jasper Avenue and 102nd Street. "That one over there was a real problem. It was an office for the drug dealers...and people were living in it."

    "It is pretty much an eye sore," said Irfan Keshwani about the booth outside his restaurant at 103rd Street. "It does attract sometimes an unsavory crowd, homeless people who are coming and using it as a shelter in bad weather."

    But not everyone is on board with getting rid of the booths. One problem is they house a number of city utilities.

    Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...#ixzz0t7hLxJUa

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    The day when those green monstrosities are gone cannot come soon enough.

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    Nobody uses payphones anymore except for drug dealers or those too luddite to buy a cellphone.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    ^ Everyone makes ridiculous generalizations, too.
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    my wife had to use a payphone yesterday when her cell broke.

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    I think payphones are mostly just a target for vandalism these days... has anyone noticed that almost every single one of the payphones on LRT platforms on the SLRT have been destroyed? Someone has ripped the change boxes right out of every single phone.

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    I do think these booths have to go but something could be put there to replace the message boards.
    LRT is our future, time to push forward.

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    Booths, message boards, and the metal-bar overhangs from the lamp-posts for the old trolley wires all have to go.

    As regards the Vcr wannabe "urban" park dreams -- you guys do realize a Vancouver-style green space in Edmonton is IMPOSSIBLE because our climate is different -- i.e. colder and a lot DRIER? Put the yaletown thing into Edmonton and you'll have another Beaver Hills within a year.
    Last edited by abaka; 09-07-2010 at 02:38 AM.

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    Without other comment, where will they place all of the infrastructure service cabinets that are now housed in these structures ?
    Undergound, in large blue (no longer green) structures, splice all the connections and move them down the sidestreets ???
    Like em or not they are there for required purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abaka View Post
    As regards the Vcr wannabe "urban" park dreams -- you guys do realize a Vancouver-style green space in Edmonton is IMPOSSIBLE because our climate is different -- i.e. colder and a lot DRIER? Put the yaletown thing into Edmonton and you'll have another Beaver Hills within a year.
    We don't need carbon-copies of Vancouver's parks and greenspaces, but we do need more parks and greenspaces in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blueline View Post
    Without other comment, where will they place all of the infrastructure service cabinets that are now housed in these structures ?
    Undergound, in large blue (no longer green) structures, splice all the connections and move them down the sidestreets ???
    Like em or not they are there for required purposes.
    Given the extent of the renovations being planned for Jasper Ave., I'm sure they'll figure out something they can do with the utilities boxes that don't require the giant mushrooms encasing them.

    C'mon, people, imagination.
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    Not discounting imagination (More please)
    But questioning practicality, do-ability and costs
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    The arehouse district needs a park in the heart of it.. not on the side of it. Leave beaverhills alone. It's already a functioning green space.

    The warehouse needs something like Paul Kane Park at it's heart... only bigger and more multi use.
    It also needs a dog park.
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    ^Amen to that.

    It also needs trees along 103 Avenue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edmonton daily photo View Post
    The arehouse district needs a park in the heart of it.. not on the side of it. Leave beaverhills alone. It's already a functioning green space.

    The warehouse needs something like Paul Kane Park at it's heart... only bigger and more multi use.
    It also needs a dog park.
    Warehouse is getting on on 105st/102ave and the new CCDP wants to put a large on between jasper/102ave and 106-107st.
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    Checked to see if this had been proposed yet for Jasper Avenue and could not find it.

    Jasper Avenue is our main east-west route and it will be going through a major refit in the near future. One of the problems these days especially with the cool weather happening early is that people complain about having to walk in the downtown. Since we are going to be rebuilding all the sidewalks, street furniture, etc, why not put inground sidewalk heating while doing this. We are a winter city and at least with this it would make our major Avenue comfortable during the winter periods. It could even be covered by a small fee to all the businesses fronting Jasper Avenue. Since snow removal would not have to be done anymore, I think many businesses would take this exchange (snow removal lobby may not want this though). There was a thread of this http://www.connect2edmonton.ca/forum...ead.php?t=9363 but if you could coincide it with the rebuilding of the pedestrian access would it not be cheaper. Heck you could even have lots of hot water panels on the north buildings of Jasper Avenue to do much of the heating for the under sidewalk portions. Great way to lead into Expo 2017 by showing innovative energy use. Embrace winter and come up with solutions instead of just griping and doing the same old, same old.
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    ^Straight question: can this be done without icing when the cold hits the thirties?

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    Rarely snows when it gets -30. I think it would be a rare occasion.
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    ^We get some of our worst blizzards when the temperature drops sharply. All the moisture in the air falls as snow and then freezes solid and squeaky.

    The test of a technology is not the usual stuff, but the likely corner cases. Would heating the snow as the temperature plunges actually encourage icing?

    It's a straight question. Does anyone know the answer?

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    I'm not in favour of such a huge waste of energy. Why don't we just open up the doors to all the buisnesses to heat the outside?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    I'm not in favour of such a huge waste of energy. Why don't we just open up the doors to all the buisnesses to heat the outside?
    you're comparing apples to oranges... as per one of the previous posts, if you are using solar, it's not a waste but using what is currently unused. and very similar technology is regularly used throughout the region on/under parkade entrance ramps. in many cases that is using glycol loops that through the use of heat exchangers is capturing/recycling waste heat that would otherwise just be leaving the building with the rest of the exhaust air. we will be incorporating similar technology in some of the handicap access ramps from the street for epcor tower. it won't keep them clear of snow under blizzard conditions but will keep them drier and safer in most weather conditions with less need for chemicals and sand... we won't be using it on stairs where there isn't an ability to provide enough positive drainage for the melt-water.
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    I am just wondering if there has been a solar heating system built that would be this size? This could be a way to lead Edmonton into the environmental age if it was able to work and be reasonably cost effective. Beaver Hills Park being about the mid point could have a bunch of solar panels made like sails or something artistic which would provide a shaded spot in the summer. Don't forget we will be redoing all the sidewalks already so a large part of the cost is already spoken for.
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    From an energy point-of-view, if straight sunshine on the sidewalk is in most cases not enough to melt the snow, you would need many times the surface area of the actual sidewalk in solar heating to actually melt significant snow. I guess physically clearing the snow is too difficult?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leendert View Post
    From an energy point-of-view, if straight sunshine on the sidewalk is in most cases not enough to melt the snow, you would need many times the surface area of the actual sidewalk in solar heating to actually melt significant snow. I guess physically clearing the snow is too difficult?
    And while you're shoveling the snow, you're also clearing away the cigarette butts and candy wrappers....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leendert View Post
    From an energy point-of-view, if straight sunshine on the sidewalk is in most cases not enough to melt the snow, you would need many times the surface area of the actual sidewalk in solar heating to actually melt significant snow. I guess physically clearing the snow is too difficult?
    with the low sun in the winter, the sidewalks - even on the north side - don't actually get much - if any - straight sunshine. and it's not so much the too difficult to clear, it's where to pile it and/or how to remove it.
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    ^correct. The angle of the sun and power of said thing is simply not there for most of the core winter months.

    The city needs to do a far better job of sidewalk and downtown snow removal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The city needs to do a far better job of sidewalk and downtown snow removal.
    While I agree with Ian on this...

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're comparing apples to oranges... as per one of the previous posts, if you are using solar, it's not a waste but using what is currently unused. and very similar technology is regularly used throughout the region on/under parkade entrance ramps. in many cases that is using glycol loops that through the use of heat exchangers is capturing/recycling waste heat that would otherwise just be leaving the building with the rest of the exhaust air.
    I'm familiar with snow melt systems on ramps. However that building waste heat could also be used on the building itself, lowering our energy demands. The passive solar energy may be free, but the other energy to run the now melt system will add up.

    I'll admit I haven't done any research into whether or not similar systems in a similar climates around the world work, so point me to some other research or working projects, and I'll change my tune.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Channing View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The city needs to do a far better job of sidewalk and downtown snow removal.
    While I agree with Ian on this...

    Quote Originally Posted by kcantor View Post
    you're comparing apples to oranges... as per one of the previous posts, if you are using solar, it's not a waste but using what is currently unused. and very similar technology is regularly used throughout the region on/under parkade entrance ramps. in many cases that is using glycol loops that through the use of heat exchangers is capturing/recycling waste heat that would otherwise just be leaving the building with the rest of the exhaust air.
    I'm familiar with snow melt systems on ramps. However that building waste heat could also be used on the building itself, lowering our energy demands. The passive solar energy may be free, but the other energy to run the now melt system will add up.

    I'll admit I haven't done any research into whether or not similar systems in a similar climates around the world work, so point me to some other research or working projects, and I'll change my tune.
    yes, it will take some energy to run but in relation to the overall energy consumption and cost of the building (as efficient as the building will be notwithstanding) but the incremental cost will be pretty nominal and at some point those incremental costs are worth incurring to create the type of climate and environment for tenants and visitors that is as good an experience as it can be. besides, what's it "worth" if it saves a twisted ankle or a broken wrist or two every winter... not everything can be quantified no matter how much "research" you do.
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    For anyone curious, the rule of thumb for snowmelt systems on parkade ramps in Edmonton is 200 btu/ft/hr when melting. Meaning that 100' of sidewalk at 4-5 feet wide would require somewhere around 100,000 btu/hr of heat input during melting, or roughly the same amount of heat required for a large single family home during "design temperature" (cold as hell) days. Multiply that out for both sides of Jasper Avenue between 124 street and 97th street, and you're looking at somewhere around 20-25 million btus/hr when the snow is falling, or enough to heat 300-500 homes. And that's assuming 100% efficiency, and not counting a single side street. And also not counting the stand-by heat requirements.

    As has been mentioned, there's no such thing as "free" heat. Most snowmelt systems do not use "waste" heat, they use the same hot water that's used to heat the building. And even if they do, whether that heat is harvested from exhaust air or off equipment, that same heat could again be used to heat the building instead.

    Personally I think it's an extremely wasteful idea and not worth contemplating. If we were sitting on top of a geothermally active area, awesome, let's do an Iceland and harvest that. But otherwise, I don't see why it's so difficult to require businesses and the city to do a reasonable job at snow removal.
    Last edited by Marcel Petrin; 21-09-2010 at 11:43 AM.

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    At least I got discussion going. Thanks for the formulas Marcel. What I had suggested however was just in the main portion of downtown from 109th to 97th. And it was to use solar panels using the energy of the sun. Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a hybrid system that could use combination solar panels, waste heat (from sewer lines, buildings, etc). And would the sidewalks not keep some of the heat due to having thermal mass? I wonder if the city would be interested in doing a test section somewhere downtown, although the big advantage of the Jasper Avenue ped reconstruction would be you not have to redo things twice. With a heating source could it also not encourage year round patios on Jasper Avenue? (thought I would throw that in for IanO). I think a system would have to be designed for -10/-15 or something along that line. Cold as hell days mean people are racing and not meandering anyways. I would say the majority of our winter is in the -5 to -15 range which would be great to make it comfy. This is not about snow removal per se, it is about making a corridor weather friendlier during the year.
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    So does anyone know what real stage the rumored makeover is at, two years into the rumours?

    Is it being conceptualized, or in planning/engineering, or financing an approved plan, or suspended, or just nowhere at all?

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    I know we've recieved information at work (EPCOR) regarding the replacement of the Central Station roof that's precipitating the first portion of the work. Past that, I'm still not exactly sure.
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    It's definitely well past the rumour stage, the consultants working on the project have held public information sessions and presented much of their vision already last year. I don't know what stage it's at currently, but I imagine it has progressed into a more detailed design, selection of street furnishings, etc.
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    waiting for funding i believe...
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    Damn Harper
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    it appears they are in the process of removing the green monsters. At least 2 have been removed as of about noon today.

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    ^Do you mean the kiosks along the sidewalk, or the things down the median?

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    kiosks on the sidewalk

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    I wonder if we are getting a makeover-lite that just removes all the overdesigned crud.

    If so, and they keep it up by removing the unused trolley-wire crossbars from the lamp-posts, I think that may as well be makeover enough.

    The real problem with Jasper Avenue is insufficient build-up and occupancy. Cosmetic makeovers will do nothing to solve that, but if somehow new businesses appear, buildings are erected, and people come back, no one is going to notice the cosmetics.

    The Jasper Avenue wirescape before WEM was butt-ugly, but no one complained.

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    Thanks goodness those are going. Some of them were just in horrid places that completely blocked the sidewalk from the street and vice-versa. I never understood the ones that had 'bustops' in them that were so blocked with structure you couldn't see in or out of them. Hullo....
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    Keep in mind many of those were utility sheds.
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    So when do we expect this makeover to take place?

    Is this going to happen in the next year or two? Five years? Ten?

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    My bet is we see final design next year with funding in 2012.
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    And completed by 2012? 13? 14? How far west does this new project run? Will any of the improvements continue west down Jasper Avenue from where currently, the end of street Jasper Avenue street furniture is at at 109 Street?

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    The boundaries were from 111st to 97st originally but I believe the west might be shortened slightly as per the new downtown plan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanO View Post
    The boundaries were from 111st to 97st originally but I believe the west might be shortened slightly as per the new downtown plan.
    I think the City should really look at giving the the west end of Jasper Avenue from 109 - 124 an identity as well in the near future. I would really like to see the district continue from 97th Street to 124th Street, but would be also be pleased if it were given its own separate identity that could include common elements from the the Jasper Ave identity (stone, lights, garbage/recycling cans, benches).

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    Any conceptual pics of Jasper Ave makeover?
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    ^^I would like to see them continue 124st around to 121st then blend it with what is on the main areas of jasper.

    Yup, cant recall where right now.
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    Here are a couple pictures I took on Jasper ave the other day.

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    With regards to the concept of heating elements, doesn't this component of the plan indicate that they are going to be using heating systems for snow melt? Also, how high on the priority list of current city projects does this lay (i.e. will it even get done?) It seems taht the city site indicates that the 2013 central station rehab. is a good time to start...still a long way to go by my books, but would def. compliment things going on in around core (potential arena district, nait lrt coming online, etc) at that time.

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    I walked by Commerce Place and Enterprise Square today. What a difference in walkability with those big green phone booths/shelters removed! More sidewalk room, better visibility.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I walked by Commerce Place and Enterprise Square today. What a difference in walkability with those big green phone booths/shelters removed! More sidewalk room, better visibility.
    Enough room for cafe/patios in some places maybe?

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    No. Those things were only on the corner.
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    I hope they removed the one around 99 Street/Jasper Avenue. I agree, these booths offered no benefit for pedestrians, and I think they're obsolete.
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    So I noticed that the bus shelters are being removed but not the bulletin boards.
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    Default Please Keep the Bold Green Street Lamps!

    I will no doubt be roasted for this, but I believe that while the "grenades" in planters in the middle of Jasper, and that the red paving stones only work when they are meticulously maintained against frost heaves, and incremental opening and closing, that the large rectangular street lamps fit in very well with the sort of building that is now, and likely to be, built along the Avenue. They also are reflexive of the fact that Edmonton is a brawny City (as Carl Sandburg said of Chicago) where pseudo Victorian curlicues and willowy art deco like standards will not add character. The frilly lamps belong in Montreal where they genuinely reflect the designs of the past, and fit their context.
    Oddly enough, the page in the Downtown Plan that argues for different lamps makes my case, They use 109 and Jasper to show the "awful" before situation, but even the big fixtures are submerged in the banality of the surroundings.
    Winter especially is a beneficiary of the current fixtures - would we really be better with grey spindles and spider webs?
    Now the drug dealers street outlets were a bad idea, not just for their architecture, but did not function as bus shelters (their putative use but we know better <grin>)!
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    ^
    I also like the big squared street lamps.
    I think the current ones should be replaced, but - like the current ones - I'd like to see something with clean lines (and not green). The more ornate lamps are well suited along 100 ave., the W.D. and maybe 104 street. I feel Jasper should have a more contemporary design as most of its history has already been removed.

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    I hope they remove the big green billboard from the SW corner of Jasper Ave and 102 St. That is such a major barrier to pedestrian movement crossing Jasper Ave.
    “You have to dream big. If we want to be a little city, we dream small. If we want to be a big city, we dream big, and this is a big idea.” - Mayor Stephen Mandel, 02/22/2012

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    what the vancouver equivalent of jasper ave be? I don't remember jasper ave too well

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    Default huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
    what the vancouver equivalent of jasper ave be? I don't remember jasper ave too well
    Huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic Death Monkey View Post
    I walked by Commerce Place and Enterprise Square today. What a difference in walkability with those big green phone booths/shelters removed! More sidewalk room, better visibility.
    Yes, without the booths/shelters in the way, ETS users can see way more clearly when their bus is arriving while they continue to use the vestibules (FORMERLY known as the entrances to Commerce and Enterprise) as their own personal bus stop. I always like the dirty looks I get when I'm only trying to get outside, but silly me, I keep interrupting their standing in the way. Tools......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercucio View Post
    ^^ Georgia.
    okay

    i remember driving down jasper in the 80's and there was an area where all the male hookers were - thats all i remember of it really - i was like a teenager and had never seen a male hooker before and its what i associate with jasper ave for some reason

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